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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
 Posted - 05/08/2005 : 02:11:06
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For the benefit of males everywhere, I would be grateful if the enlightened ladies of our forum could shed some light on this. Please discuss. And please do accept that my interest is genuinely open, as opposed to malicious. After all, though it would seem that men would kill one another, women can shred one another to bits. And I mean that with respect, in a machiavellian sense.
Study: Meanness in Girls Can Start at 3
Fri May 6, 2005 8:33 PM ET
Meanness in girls can start when they still are toddlers, a Brigham Young University study found. It found that girls as young as 3 or 4 will use manipulation and peer pressure to get what they want.
"It could range from leaving someone out to telling their friends not to play with someone to saying, 'I'm not going to invite you to my birthday party,'" said Craig Hart, study co-author and professor of marriage, family and human development at BYU. "Some kids are really adept at being mean and nasty."
They regularly exclude others and threaten to withdraw friendship when they don't get their way.
The "mean girls" are highly liked by some and strongly disliked by others. They are socially skilled and popular but can be manipulative and subversive if necessary. They are feared as well as respected.
The study is the first to link relational aggression and social status in preschoolers. It appears in the current issue of the journal Early Education and Development. David Nelson and Clyde Robinson of BYU are the other authors.
Researchers have long known that adolescents, particularly girls, engage in this sort of behavior, called relational aggression, to maintain their social status.
In fact, a number of books and movies have come out recently exploring this phenomenon, including the best-selling "Queen Bees and Wannabes" and the movie "Mean Girls."
"But it is striking that these aggressive strategies are already apparent ... in preschool," Nelson said. "Preschoolers appear to be more sophisticated in their knowledge of social behaviors than credit is typically given them."
Hart said other research has found that about 17 percent to 20 percent of preschool and school-age girls display such behavior. It also shows up in boys, but much less frequently.
"The typical mantra is that boys are more aggressive than girls, but in the last decade we've learned that girls can be just as aggressive as boys, just in different ways," he said.
The researchers asked 328 preschool children to rate their peers.
They asked which children were most likely to start fights, which were most popular and which were most physically aggressive_
The surveys found that even in preschool, a social hierarchy exists.
"You have popular kids, you have average kids, and you have kids (whom) others don't like to play with. Then there are some kids who just fly below the radar," Hart said.
Other research at BYU has shown that physically and relationally aggressive children are more likely to have parents who discipline with psychological control and manipulation, withdrawing love, avoiding eye contact and laying guilt trips on the kids.
"With relational aggression, we are early on in trying to tease apart these relationships," Hart said.
One thing researchers do know is that childhood slights can have lasting impacts.
Hart said the study may help teachers and parents key into relational aggression and the psychological and emotional trauma it can cause. Just as they do with physical aggression, adults need to monitor such behavior and help children recognize the harm it can cause.
"We've done studies showing that reasoning with children, not just one time but taking lots of opportunities to reason with them about how their behavior is affecting others, can help diminish it," Hart said.
Copyright © 2005 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. |
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Surfer Rosa
> Teenager of the Year <
4209 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2005 : 02:19:48
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Nothing in that piece surprises me in the slightest, though in my experience men can be the biggest bitches at times.
I think it's that young boys have more physical relationships in that boys will be physically competitive, even smacking each other about is seen as quite normal - girls on the other hand learn to assert themselves by being emotionally manipulative. |
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Carl
- A 'Fifth' Catholic -
Ireland
11546 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2005 : 02:27:01
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That's a good observation. Generally speaking, I think that's quite true. It's the way many
societies seem to nuture they're young, the way male/female learn to deal with conflict. |
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Homers_pet_monkey
= Official forum monkey =
United Kingdom
17125 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2005 : 03:11:04
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That all sounds about right to me.
I joined the secret forum, and all I got was this lousy secret
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2005 : 07:23:12
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from being at the recieving end through most of my schooling thats fairly correct.
from simple "I'm not talking to you so no one else will" because there is always a pack leader
to telling teacher/nun that I'd done something I hadn't, which was particularly devious
to later convincing their "boyfriends" to beat the shit out of me
girls can be bitches, and not all of them grow out of it.
I'm not sure the assesment of the parent types that cause kids to be violent is 100% correct though.
The staying with you in later life, thats very true.
 meeting people is easy |
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2005 : 08:19:37
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This has already started for my little girl.
Another little girl was choked at her for some reason and tht girl said that she's not cool because she's not pretty or popular.
She's 5...
I found the best way to deal with it when I was younger was to pretend like you don't care. Give no reaction, indifference. They get bored quickly when they find out you don't want to play. I try to tell my daughter why they act like they do and that they're looking for a reaction.
I believe that its all social conditioning.
What is acceptable behaviour for sorting things out with males is not socially acceptable for females. Also girls can engage in this behaviour rather subtly, not many people will even know they are doing it, its not ladylike to be a bitch. Plus you prolly won't even get in any trouble for this behaviour. And this meaness is usually based on appearance/popularity/boys...hmmm see a trend as to what images girls are confronted with a bagazillion times a day. Its socially acceptable to be pretty and popular, for a girl.
But what I wish is that the "bitches" could see exactly what it says about them when they behave in this way. They may as well wear a sign that says hey I have low self image and esteem/ hey I buy into every sterotype and marketing campaign that corporate america throws at me because I can't think for myself.
__________
This is the war and not the warning. |
Edited by - Carolynanna on 05/08/2005 09:30:13 |
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2005 : 08:43:38
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I would like to think of myself as very non-judgemental. But I'll tell you what, its not always easy and takes some effort. I find that I am able to get along with girls as I'm not playing any games or making any judgement, I have nothing to prove. (Plus I have a thing about conflict...) Not all girls can get along with other girls, too much to be threatened by.
Edit: Ack I can't use names.
But I believe there was a perfect example on this very board a while back. There was female member who seemed to take quite a few shots at another female member. I obviously don't know for sure but it would seem that this one person resented the recent popularity of the other person. When called on it, she denied that she ever had a problem in the first place. Her posts were very veiled and she had her out.
__________
This is the war and not the warning. |
Edited by - Carolynanna on 05/08/2005 08:56:48 |
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2005 : 09:05:30
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Whew, this topic gets me going.
I always think don't we have enough to deal with as women?
Why do we have to turn on eachother as well?
Let me change my punctuation VoVat.
My meaning must not've been clear.
__________
This is the war and not the warning. |
Edited by - Carolynanna on 05/08/2005 09:20:40 |
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VoVat
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
9168 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2005 : 09:16:56
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You don't have enough to deal with as women? That sounds rather misogynistic to me.
I'm not sure being petty really has anything to do with how many serious problems there are to deal with.
I was all out of luck, like a duck that died. I was all out of juice, like a moose denied. |
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2005 : 09:20:39
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It's such a strange phenomenon, some girls seem to think that gaining and establishing popularity is to be achieved at the expense of others and the easiest way to do it is to see how an individual doesn't fit into the little "normal" box then pick on those things, make the little sly digs or worse. It's such a shallow behaviour and I think highly indicitive, like you say, of the lack of substance these instigators have. If they have little depth to offer themselves they concentrate on the peripheral and make other people feel like the shortcoming is theirs. It usually is based around appearance especially in younger girls (and in older girls to an extent) and anyone with smarts, or doesn't tick the current trend acceptable check box is in for it.
I have this trouble right now with a girl at university who resents the close friendship of my two friends and I, she's managed to convince some of the rest of the people in the degree to blank us (seriously, I don't mind though I never really liked them) and even lost my two friends marks on their degree by not passing along essential information. She's never pulled a stunt like that with me because she knows I wouldn't tolerate it.
I did used to be a sit by quietly and ignore it type of person, very meek and mild (would you believe it!) but it got to me quite badly.
It's sad really.
meeting people is easy |
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2005 : 09:24:55
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Carolyn I'm really sorry that your daughter has already come accross this, but with such a kick ass mom she's in good stead to come through it good.
meeting people is easy |
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VoVat
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
9168 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2005 : 09:27:42
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I think there's definitely some merit in the ideas put forth here. It seems like men are more openly mean, while women are more secretly manipulative. Of course, those are stereotypes, and don't fit everyone.
And it certainly isn't only girls who get mocked for not being "normal."
I was all out of luck, like a duck that died. I was all out of juice, like a moose denied. |
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2005 : 09:29:50
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You're right it's not only girls, at my first high school there was a lad who I'd known for a good few years, the poor kid had a terrible home life it had never been good, and had always been bullied. There I used the bullying word (I hate that word, seems too soft) He was a very tall very skinny guy for his age (11), had big ears and bad teeth and was bullied mercilessly throughout school for it. On his last day a group of lads ganged up on him for being, less than normal, but whereas girls tend to hang around and make the digs the guys tended to be straight to fists and insults. He got in a fight, went home that night and hung himself.
Bullying isn't sex dependant it happens to both, I think the way it's gone about is different though.
With girls it's harder to see and to detect sometimes because they are so fucking sly and seem to be able to convince people it's not really happening.
meeting people is easy |
Edited by - starmekitten on 05/08/2005 09:39:04 |
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2005 : 09:36:03
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I'm not talking stereotypes I'm talking social conditioning.
And tre, thanks, you made my day. :)
__________
This is the war and not the warning. |
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VoVat
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
9168 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2005 : 09:38:24
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But stereotypes and social conditioning are related, right? People are often conditioned to fit stereotypes, which in turn perpetuates the stereotypes.
I was all out of luck, like a duck that died. I was all out of juice, like a moose denied. |
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2005 : 09:48:13
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True enough, social conditioning can be used as a means to fit into social norms.
With all due respect, let me ask you this;
So many times when a so-called "female issue" arises, men let it be known that females aren't the only one who are victims of this issue. Why is that?
__________
This is the war and not the warning. |
Edited by - Carolynanna on 05/08/2005 10:00:12 |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2005 : 09:55:03
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I find myself oddly touched by all this. Thank you for the thoughts. Makes me wish I'd given this thread a different title. I almost lurched out of my chair when Tre concluded that paragraph with "He got in a fight, went home that night and hung himself."
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2005 : 10:03:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Carolynanna
True enough, social conditioning can be used as a means to fit into social norms.
With all due respect, let me ask you this;
So many times when a so-called "female issue" arises, men let it be known that females aren't the only one who are victims of this issue. Why is that?
Because it's usually true. Men have problems. Women have problems. They're usually related but different. I don't think men want to be thought of as victims, they probably just want it made clear that they understand and have been there too.
 "Joined the Cult of Frank / And you'll be enlightened" |
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zub_the_goat
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
639 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2005 : 10:04:00
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boys can be just as cruel as girls, but its always more covert with girls, more of a constant attack, so much that people (sometimes even the victim) doesnt really realise its happening, making it way less likely that they can stand up for themselves, or end up seeing themselves being bullied as justifiable as they deserve it for whatever personal difference
I wish i had a wooden heart that i could set on fire... |
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2005 : 10:07:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
I almost lurched out of my chair when Tre concluded that paragraph with "He got in a fight, went home that night and hung himself."
Thats why I feel it so important for kids to understand the motivation behind bullying behaviour.
Parents have to be responsible too (eeks). They must take the time and consideration to endow their children with a healthy self-esteem, especially when they are the sole influence when the children are younger. And they also need to nip bullying behaviour in the bud. And this doesn't involve just punishing the child, it involves an actual conversation on the subject.
It is a difficult task though, especially when taken with dose of day to day reality.
__________
This is the war and not the warning. |
Edited by - Carolynanna on 05/08/2005 10:10:59 |
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2005 : 10:14:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Cult_Of_Frank
quote:
Originally posted by Carolynanna
True enough, social conditioning can be used as a means to fit into social norms.
With all due respect, let me ask you this;
So many times when a so-called "female issue" arises, men let it be known that females aren't the only one who are victims of this issue. Why is that?
Because it's usually true. Men have problems. Women have problems. They're usually related but different. I don't think men want to be thought of as victims, they probably just want it made clear that they understand and have been there too.
"Joined the Cult of Frank / And you'll be enlightened"
Fair enough.
Sometimes it seems trivializing though,
depending on what tone its delivered with.
__________
This is the war and not the warning. |
Edited by - Carolynanna on 05/08/2005 10:19:18 |
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2005 : 10:22:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Carolynanna
With all due respect, let me ask you this;
So many times when a so-called "female issue" arises, men let it be known that females aren't the only one who are victims of this issue. Why is that?
__________
This is the war and not the warning.
I understand EXACTLY what you are saying here Carolyn. Now before I go on I tease you guys for being guys but I don't mean a damn word of it and you should all know this. But there are observable differences between the way men and women react to situations. Many times (and I am not saying this is universal) you bring up an issue with a guy and the first thing he will do is turn it defensive, in a 'this affects us too' sort of way instead of entering into how it makes us feel. It happens in discussions, it happens in arguments. This isn't a criticism, just an observable difference.
Yeah Erebus, we were 11 years old and it sent him this far, it drives me crazy now. I was on a bus one day and two kids were picking on this oriental girl because she was big, this girl was in floods of tears and they wouldn't let up. So I went over there and gave them a mouthful and chased them off the bus. I won't tolerate it anywhere now. I meant what I said about being meek and mild, I really was once a wallflower but sometimes things change you.
And good on you Carolyn for dealing with it so responsibly. I think back to when I was young, we had a rocky home life and I don't blame my parents for any of it (fiercely proud of them pair), I was too scared to tell my mum for a long time and when I did she did as any parent would and went to the school to speak to the heads of department about it. I got pulled out of class to go see the head and my mum was in tears, they had basically told her I bought it upon myself. I think it was hard for her because her own self esteem was none existant.
It makes me so mad, you know I have a hundred horrible little stories about these situations, so of course it stays with you.
forgot my point, I'll get back to you.
meeting people is easy |
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VoVat
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
9168 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2005 : 10:26:35
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Did what I said seem trivializing? It wasn't supposed to.
I was all out of luck, like a duck that died. I was all out of juice, like a moose denied. |
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2005 : 11:29:54
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Good, I'm glad.
Ack maybe it was the misogynistic comment...
Let me give an example.
A writer for the local newspaper did a column on domestic violence.
It was written from a woman's point of view and devoted to women.
The next week there were alot of letters to the editor published from men who were offended and some of them downright irate that there was no mention of violence against men. Now realistically we all know that domestic violence against men does happen and I do not condone women who partake in such violent behaviour. But also realistically, the vast majority of this violence is against women.
__________
This is the war and not the warning. |
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2005 : 11:50:26
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Great thread, Erebus, full of worthwhile points.
Have I mentioned that you're my secret forum crush?
The main reason my husband and I plan on homeschooling
our daughter is to spare her the hierarchical bullshit,
which was in place by the time she was, indeed, a toddler
and her peers started seeming hyper-aware of status
and began exhibiting Machiavellian tactics. From what
I see literally daily on the playground, girls are more
subtle and cruel than boys.
Here's an example from this forum to illustrate
this gender difference regarding aggression and
popularity/exclusion from the dominant group:
• Out of nowhere Pixiesteve, more than once, has called me a "slag"
and told me to "shut up" and called me an "egotist." He got banned
for a week; a few days ago I called him on some stuff and a couple of male
forum members gave their (as far as I could tell uninformed) opinion,
one male forum member subtly called me self-righteous for
(unsuccessfully) asking that Steve be permanently banned.
Note three salient qualities:
it started out of the blue, was aggressive and public.
• When I was a newbie, I emailed a long-established female forum
member to introduce myself and find out the lay of the land.
She ignored me off the forum and on, and has systematically been
less than cordial to other female forum members but consistently
charming to male members.
Note those same three salient qualities turned upside down:
it was a cultivated thing, was passive and private.
Males are quicker to act and do so in more aggressive ways
than females, who go for less dramatic but far more
emotionally sophisticated cruelty.
I still believe in the excellent joy of the Catholics |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2005 : 11:56:46
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| i think some people take forums a little too seriously |
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2005 : 12:00:42
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quote:
Originally posted by floop
i think some people take forums a little too seriously
I've said it before and I'll say it again, that while the forum is only a forum the people who post on it are only human and there will be times raw nerves will be touched.
meeting people is easy |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2005 : 12:05:27
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quote:
Originally posted by starmekitten
quote:
Originally posted by floop
i think some people take forums a little too seriously
I've said it before and I'll say it again, that while the forum is only a forum the people who post on it are only human and there will be times raw nerves will be touched.
meeting people is easy
certainly. but if you're letting your nerves be touched THAT much, that can't be a good thing. it's a forum.
on the internet |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2005 : 12:08:45
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back on topic:
i find it interesting that, in general, guys get along with each other better. if you take a group of guys and put them in a room together, chances are they'll be cool to each other and get along.
with a group of girls, it's a different story.
why is that? you could say it's a competitive thing, but men are just as competitive with one another
don't make me bring up my sociological examination of dating shows like 3rd Wheel and Elimidate..
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2005 : 12:23:47
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quote:
Originally posted by floop
quote:
Originally posted by starmekitten
quote:
Originally posted by floop
i think some people take forums a little too seriously
I've said it before and I'll say it again, that while the forum is only a forum the people who post on it are only human and there will be times raw nerves will be touched.
meeting people is easy
certainly. but if you're letting your nerves be touched THAT much, that can't be a good thing. it's a forum.
on the internet
It can't be a good thing, huh? Floop, maybe you will judge that
differently when it's you that Pixiesteve or the next flamer
personally attacks. Wait until you get called out time and
again and then get back to me. Next time someone
out of the blue tells you to shut up and calls you names,
you let us know whether you were able to let your nerves
get touched THAT much or whether it didn't upset you at all.
Maybe the fact that it's "just" an internet forum will make
a difference and you won't be upset.
Sorry to go off topic, Erebus.
I still believe in the excellent joy of the Catholics |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2005 : 12:25:58
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I think it's that men don't have to be as curious about motives and wondering what's going on underneath. If I'm pissed off, you'll know it. I might not yell and scream, but you will know it. Not saying that men can't be/aren't subversive or have hidden motives, but that when there are, even that is pretty obvious whether you have any clue what they might be or not. With women, they always have to be suspicious. They're always thinking, "Oh, you're saying that because you want this". Because that's how they are, so they expect it from others.
I think this is the core of men/womens' difficulties to understand each other. We expect others to think like we do, which works within the same gender, but not as often across them. Girls that get along better with guys are less likely to be subversive and so wouldn't really get along as well with the average girl, for example.
Obviously this thread is going to be prone to sweeping generalizations and my posts are no exception, but I accept that there are exceptions in both exceptional genders. Plus I like the sound of the word 'accept'/'except'.
"Joined the Cult of Frank / And you'll be enlightened" |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2005 : 12:32:01
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quote:
Originally posted by kathryn
It can't be a good thing, huh? Floop, maybe you will judge that
differently when it's you that Pixiesteve or the next flamer
personally attacks. Wait until you get called out time and
again and then get back to me. Next time someone
out of the blue tells you to shut up and calls you names,
you let us know whether you were able to let your nerves
get touched THAT much or whether it didn't upset you at all.
Maybe the fact that it's "just" an internet forum will make
a difference and you won't be upset.
Sorry to go off topic, Erebus.
i'm sorry you were so upset. honestly (oh wait, men are totally insensitive)..
but i stand by my opinion. i don't think it's worth it to let an internet forum bother you that much.
i've been flamed by people and i've gotten upset before. but then i quickly try to remind myself of where i'm at. i mean, it's an internet forum... and yes, that should make a difference of how upset you get.
to each their own |
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2005 : 12:33:25
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I'm not trying to start any sort of dominant sex fight because it's a futile thing to do without any form of conclusion, it's just an observation. As a rule, guys don't always think about what they're saying. Women can be deliberatly cruel when they want to but the most flippant of remarks from a guy can be just as mean whether it was intended to be or not.
meeting people is easy |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2005 : 12:35:13
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| that's fucking bullshit |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2005 : 12:35:47
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| (that was supposed to be a joke) |
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2005 : 12:37:37
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You're right, floop. We disagree. For me, while it's "just the
internet" we remain human and we still have feelings
that can get hurt and there are still boundaries and social
niceties that ought to be observed. Respect and good manners
persist for me, no matter the venue.
I still believe in the excellent joy of the Catholics |
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Bitches
