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VoVat
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
9168 Posts |
 Posted - 04/09/2005 : 13:52:45
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I'd say early solo Frank is my favorite overall, but I still like what he did with the Catholics. I haven't heard Honeycomb yet, so I couldn't tell you what I think of that. As I've said, the production quality isn't much of an issue with me. I don't know that he turns out quite as many amazing songs as he used to, but there are enough to make the newer albums worthwhile for me.
"Reunion? Shit union!" |
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puredenizenofthecitizensb
- FB Fan -
Uzbekistan
150 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2005 : 14:49:18
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At least Jason acknowledges "you whiners" was hurtful.
I could stay here forever! |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2005 : 15:22:15
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"What's more "Britney Spears" than fast, cheap 'n' easy? "
While that's funny, it totally sidesteps the point I was attempting to make. Which is that Britney's label's accountant's "music" is not done easily. It's poured over note-by-note, compared with market studies, and tweaked extensively to sound perfect. In comparison to that, Frank's music is easy from a post-production standpoint. But it requires much more talent at the front end - the people actually performing and creating the music - than something like Britney Spears. Yeah, you could argue it's not produced as much after the fact, and therefore requires less effort and is cheaper. But if the music's quality (to you)is solely a function of how much time was spent or how much money it cost to make, then I'm afraid we're never going to agree.
There's more to the argument than "fast/cheap" and you're doing yourselves a disservice by pretending otherwise since your arguments, which you might find people agreeing with for other reasons, are destroyed by this sort of logic. And yes, apologist has negative connotations, the same as 'whiners'. The literal meaning of which is simply someone who's complaining.
 "Oh dear / I seem to have joined the Cult of Frank." |
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puredenizenofthecitizensb
- FB Fan -
Uzbekistan
150 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2005 : 15:45:10
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Let's say Jason orders a mocha from Starbucks, but what he actually gets is a brown fluid-like substance from an army latrine. Jason complains and they say "Why can't you just accept the fact that some people like this $#!t?"
Is Jason merely a whiner? Is the Starbucks spokesperson really just an apologist?
How did we get to talking about Britney Spears? |
Edited by - puredenizenofthecitizensb on 04/09/2005 16:05:24 |
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VoVat
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
9168 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2005 : 16:58:48
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But that Starbucks analogy doesn't work, because that's misrepresentation of the product, which Frank isn't doing. Or do you think simply putting the name "Frank Black" on a subpar album is misrepresentation?
"Reunion? Shit union!" |
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puredenizenofthecitizensb
- FB Fan -
Uzbekistan
150 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2005 : 21:54:02
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quote:
Originally posted by VoVat
But that Starbucks analogy doesn't work, because that's misrepresentation of the product, which Frank isn't doing. Or do you think simply putting the name "Frank Black" on a subpar album is misrepresentation?
"Reunion? Shit union!"
It's as good or better an analogy as that Britney Spears analogy. WTF?
Yes, it's a misrepresentation to put "Frank Black" on a CD that sounds like FB & the Cs, which was my original "complaint" if you will. The Man isn't doing anything different than what he was doing w/ the C's. So, yeah, it's kinda like getting brown latrine water instead of coffee.
 How come we say Los Angeleez?
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Jason
* Dog in the Sand *
1446 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2005 : 22:29:53
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I know mr. spaceghost just got here, but if he looked around the board a bit, he'd find a lot of people here saying a lot of good things about HONEYCOMB. Me, I haven't heard it. I'm waiting for July 19. I think MP3s are a lousy way to listen to music for the first time.
quote:
Originally posted by puredenizenofthecitizensb
quote:
Originally posted by VoVat
But that Starbucks analogy doesn't work, because that's misrepresentation of the product, which Frank isn't doing. Or do you think simply putting the name "Frank Black" on a subpar album is misrepresentation?
"Reunion? Shit union!"
It's as good or better an analogy as that Britney Spears analogy. WTF?
Yeah, and your Britney analogy was retarded, too. (And don't say someone else brought it up. You're the one that made the first explicit analogy to Britney.)
quote:
Yes, it's a misrepresentation to put "Frank Black" on a CD that sounds like FB & the Cs, which was my original "complaint" if you will. The Man isn't doing anything different than what he was doing w/ the C's. So, yeah, it's kinda like getting brown latrine water instead of coffee.
So you're saying he should release HONEYCOMB as Frank Black and the Catholics even though the Catholics don't play on it? Come on now.
(Tip for puredenizen, don't ever get into David Bowie or The Beatles. They changed their sound a lot and didn't change their name every time they did it.)
You can call me a whiner. I don't care. I'm an adult. |
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puredenizenofthecitizensb
- FB Fan -
Uzbekistan
150 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2005 : 22:54:19
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quote:
(Tip for puredenizen, don't ever get into David Bowie or The Beatles. They changed their sound a lot and didn't change their name every time they did it.)
Okay, let's pretend David Jones didn't change his sound about the same time he changed his name to Bowie. Let's also pretend he didn't change his sound while in Tin Machine.
Who are the Beatles?
How come we say Los Angeleez?
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2005 : 22:57:06
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quote:
Originally posted by puredenizenofthecitizensb
Let's say Jason orders a mocha from Starbucks, but what he actually gets is a brown fluid-like substance from an army latrine. Jason complains and they say "Why can't you just accept the fact that some people like this $#!t?"
Is Jason merely a whiner? Is the Starbucks spokesperson really just an apologist?
How did we get to talking about Britney Spears?
That has no relevance to anything. Your argument centers around the "fast/cheap/therefore crap" argument. I said that spending lots of time isn't important and certainly is no way to measure the quality of something. Britney Spears came up because they spend a LOT of time post-production but it's shit.
If somehow coffee makes more sense to you, then the apt analogy would be that you and I go to Starbucks. We get the exact same coffee. Mine is made in three minutes, yours in half an hour. Is this a guarantee that yours is better than mine? Is this the only measure to you of whether something is good or not?
The fact that, as a bonus, it's cheaper and (in only some senses) easier doesn't necessarily mean a better or worse product.
"Oh dear / I seem to have joined the Cult of Frank." |
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puredenizenofthecitizensb
- FB Fan -
Uzbekistan
150 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2005 : 23:11:24
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Okay, so Britney Spears is inside a cup of Starbucks coffee, floating on a radioactive atom. If the atom decays, Britney drowns; if the atom doesn't decay, Britney lives. As the atom is considered to be in either state before Jason looks inside the cup, Britney must thus be considered to be simultaneously dead and alive.
How come we say Los Angeleez?
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puredenizenofthecitizensb
- FB Fan -
Uzbekistan
150 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2005 : 23:22:36
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I like this variation better...
Jason is inside a cup of Starbucks coffee, floating on a radioactive atom. If the atom decays, Jason drowns; if the atom doesn't decay, Jason lives. As the atom is considered to be in either state before Frank Zappa looks inside the cup, Jason must thus be considered to be simultaneously dead and alive.
How come we say Los Angeleez?
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2005 : 23:42:10
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Schroedinger's coffee?
"Oh dear / I seem to have joined the Cult of Frank." |
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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Netherlands
6214 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2005 : 03:08:29
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Frank Black can go put his (stage)name on any album he wants
it's no brand
it's his stagename
if he makes a kid-sing-a-long-album he can do it as Frank Black
and if he makes a rap album he can do it as Frank Black
read a review before you buy an album and you know what to expect
 "I joined the cult of Jon Tiven/Bye!" |
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spaceghost11
- FB Fan -
USA
26 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2005 : 08:39:52
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| Everyone is still defending on principal...Can't get a straight answer out of u long-timers. |
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mun chien andalusia
= Quote Accumulator =
Italy
2139 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2005 : 09:14:55
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i don't know what kind of a straight answer you expect but here's my 2 cents:
i prefer the toty and cor sound to the latest albums. i'm no expert and i don't know anything about studio recordings but i can understand that people may like or hate one techique or another and not necesserily out of blind idolatry to the man. said that why should fb stay fossilized to what the critics and the largest part of his fan base considers the best part of his carreer (see pixies)if he doesn't feel to? does he owe you or me something? i think not. if somebody doesn't like what he does now he simply doesn't buy the album. and that's exactly what happened after he disbanded the pixies. simple as that.
 i bash newbies for a living |
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Jason
* Dog in the Sand *
1446 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2005 : 09:51:32
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quote:
Originally posted by puredenizenofthecitizensb
quote:
(Tip for puredenizen, don't ever get into David Bowie or The Beatles. They changed their sound a lot and didn't change their name every time they did it.)
Okay, let's pretend David Jones didn't change his sound about the same time he changed his name to Bowie. Let's also pretend he didn't change his sound while in Tin Machine.
So you're saying those are the ONLY times he changed his sound and changed his band?
If your posts ever start making sense YOU need to change your name. If you don't it'll throw us all off. |
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puredenizenofthecitizensb
- FB Fan -
Uzbekistan
150 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2005 : 09:52:38
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quote:
Originally posted by billgoodman
Frank Black can go put his (stage)name on any album he wants
it's no brand
it's his stagename
if he makes a kid-sing-a-long-album he can do it as Frank Black
and if he makes a rap album he can do it as Frank Black
read a review before you buy an album and you know what to expect
The funny thing is, if FB makes a kid's sing-along album or a rap album, we'll all go out and buy it because it's FB. But, if anyone here criticizes it, they will be publicly flogged by the forum cops.
Hey mun chien! It's not that simple. FB fans can't just stop buying the albums just because FB is heading yonder down James Taylor way.
I still buy Bowie and he has consistently disappointed since 1980.
Bottom line, and the original meaning of this topic, is that FB is still great, Honeycomb is great by so-called industry standards, but if FB is going to break from the Catholics, at least do something different. Geez.
How come we say Los Angeleez?
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Jason
* Dog in the Sand *
1446 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2005 : 10:00:46
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quote:
Originally posted by spaceghost11
Everyone is still defending on principal...Can't get a straight answer out of u long-timers.
A lot of people liked HONEYCOMB months before this fascinating argument ever began and said very nice things about it without being provoked by your revolutionary opinion (on an album that you haven't even heard the finished version of, by the way). Many of those people are probably too smart to get into this argument. |
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mun chien andalusia
= Quote Accumulator =
Italy
2139 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2005 : 10:03:42
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quote:
Originally posted by puredenizenofthecitizensb
[quote]It's not that simple. FB fans can't just stop buying the albums just because FB is heading yonder down James Taylor way.
I still buy Bowie and he has consistently disappointed since 1980.
Bottom line, and the original meaning of this topic, is that FB is still great, Honeycomb is great by so-called industry standards, but if FB is going to break from the Catholics, at least do something different. Geez.
[i]How come we say Los Angeleez?
it should be that simple or at least it is for me. i used to love the smashing pumpkins for example but i never bought machina that sucked imo and an endless list of artists that i bought only the albums that i really liked and not the entire discography.
and fb is actually doing something for the pixies sound fans. he reformed the pixies remember?
i bash newbies for a living |
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puredenizenofthecitizensb
- FB Fan -
Uzbekistan
150 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2005 : 10:06:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Jason
quote:
Originally posted by spaceghost11
Everyone is still defending on principal...Can't get a straight answer out of u long-timers.
A lot of people liked HONEYCOMB months before this fascinating argument ever began and said very nice things about it without being provoked by your revolutionary opinion (on an album that you haven't even heard the finished version of, by the way). Many of those people are probably too smart to get into this argument.
Well, get a load of you, Jason! No one is twisting your arm to comment here.
How come we say Los Angeleez?
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Jason
* Dog in the Sand *
1446 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2005 : 10:10:16
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quote:
Originally posted by puredenizenofthecitizensb
The funny thing is, if FB makes a kid's sing-along album or a rap album, we'll all go out and buy it because it's FB. But, if anyone here criticizes it, they will be publicly flogged by the forum cops.
Lots of people here have been very critical of Frank without getting flogged for it (only 6% of this board likes Pistolero for instance, about 4% likes Frank Black Francis). This thread has carried on for so long because you're a very thin-skinned guy (as evidenced by you starting to make a federal case out of being called a "whiner") and can't take being disagreed with. So you must respond. To everything. |
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puredenizenofthecitizensb
- FB Fan -
Uzbekistan
150 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2005 : 10:16:16
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Is it me or is it getting really Jason in here?
How come we say Los Angeleez?
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Edited by - puredenizenofthecitizensb on 04/10/2005 10:19:24 |
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spaceghost11
- FB Fan -
USA
26 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2005 : 11:28:51
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| U keep proving my point Jason--still floundering around to save FB face without ever actually giving your opinion on whether you like the new albums or not.....hard to pin you long-timers down. |
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Jason
* Dog in the Sand *
1446 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2005 : 12:19:55
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Okay. I hate the new albums. That's my honest opinion.
Puredenizen is right. They sound a lot like Britney Spears. |
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2005 : 12:24:38
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How can you guys be so judgmental on a version of an album that isn't even finished?
Frank can put his name to it because it's his work. It sounds different from other Frank Black records because there has been a lot of time passed since his first batch of solo work and this, he has done other things musically his style has changed. I doubt $$$ was a factor in the way this album has been made because the reunion would have bought some cash in as well as all the album sales I doubt he is short of a quid or two. I also doubt that if the man were less than happy with honeycomb he would let it be released, this album has been long enough coming I figure he wouldn't be too fussed about waiting longer to fiddle around with it if he felt in necesary.
What is it with the long timers business as well, thats crap. You only have to glance round to see people will say if they don't like something. Jason has stated before he hasn't heard honeycomb yet spaceghost, if you actually read the thread rather than trying to pick some flaccid argument you would have gotten that.
This is a frank forum, there's a hell of a lot of real big catholics fans here who do love the honeycomb they have heard. Why is that so difficult for you to understand? they have a different opinion to yours but that doesn't make it less valid.
Myself, I have heard it, I don't love it but I'm not a big fan of a lot of the country vibe to the later music. There are a couple of songs on there however I think are superb and I will be buying the album because of those songs and because I can't rightly judge the album on the leaked version.
Also, the accusations of sycophantism are unfounded. It is well known that the man has visited the forum, as well as plenty of other people associated with the records. Generally out of common courtesy and a bit of basic respect people try to keep their critiscm constructive rather than dismissing an entire album or recording technique with accusations that it's cheap 'n' quick and therfore diminished.
 I joined the cult of Derek/ because Dereks don't run |
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Carl
- A 'Fifth' Catholic -
Ireland
11546 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2005 : 12:41:19
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| People's tastes change and 'mature', and that includes musical artists(except The Ramones!) At least Frank is'nt doin TOTY mark-10 at this stage. There's nothing wrong with a change. |
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puredenizenofthecitizensb
- FB Fan -
Uzbekistan
150 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2005 : 12:46:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Carl
People's tastes change and 'mature', and that includes musical artists(except The Ramones!) At least Frank is'nt doin TOTY mark-10 at this stage. There's nothing wrong with a change.
Good point Carl. Now that's what I'm looking for! I hope you're reading this Jason.
How come we say Los Angeleez?
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spaceghost11
- FB Fan -
USA
26 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2005 : 13:18:59
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| And still no one will stand up and say they like his new direction--Hilarious! So far all I'm hearing is "I'm not a fan of the country flavor but...." Oh and don't forget, if we say something bad, Big Brother Frank is watching! HILARIOUS. |
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Jason
* Dog in the Sand *
1446 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2005 : 13:32:29
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quote:
Originally posted by spaceghost11
And still no one will stand up and say they like his new direction--Hilarious! So far all I'm hearing is "I'm not a fan of the country flavor but...." Oh and don't forget, if we say something bad, Big Brother Frank is watching! HILARIOUS.
Is this single thread linked from a Pitchfork board or something?
You seem to think this thread is the only Honeycomb discussion here. There are several other threads on this board where people DO say they like his new direction. They even "stand up" and say it, Eminem.
(spaceghost11's reply: "Those comments don't count. They have to be made in this thread. Also they must be made on or before April 15 or a penalty will be assesed. It will take 3-4 business days to process positive posts about Honeycomb.")
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NimrodsSon
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1938 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2005 : 13:38:59
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I, for one, love the new direction he's taken. Black Letter Days was the first Frank Black album I heard and it's what completely blew me out of the water and made me become completely obsessed with Frank's music; and now, 10 albums and numerous bootlegs later, I still love it. I can honestly say I listen to and enjoy the "country"-flavored stuff more than the first three solo albums and far more than any of the Pixies albums. The only thing I've ever said I'm not a big fan of is the production, and some of it is decent.
ˇViva los Católicos! http://adrianfoster.dmusic.com/ |
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spaceghost11
- FB Fan -
USA
26 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2005 : 14:38:43
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| Thank you Nimrod, i appreciate someone taking a side here. As i sit here and listen to FB, i realize, the production aspect goes hand in hand with the songs being written and maybe the point of all this is, I liked the complex songs in the past where the production HAD to be complex. These days, his songs are simplistic, hence the simplistic production. I totally agree with you Nimrod, 90% of the production is good, and even great. There are a few on BLD that sound like demos--True Blue, farewell bend--and on SMYT--Coastline, When will happiness--but i think the production otherwise is pretty good. Also DITS has some gems production wise, but others are too much like a bootleg. So let me say this, simplistic production compliments his "new" style of music, and in the end, maybe us "whiners" are just wishing for more complex songs that necesitate more complex production. Keep rocking hard Jason, I appreciate ur insight...... |
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VoVat
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
9168 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2005 : 15:07:01
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quote:
The funny thing is, if FB makes a kid's sing-along album or a rap album, we'll all go out and buy it because it's FB. But, if anyone here criticizes it, they will be publicly flogged by the forum cops.
Oh, come on! When has anyone here been "flogged" for their opinions? The only people here who could accurately be considered "list cops" are the three moderators, and I haven't known any of them to ban anyone for saying they didn't like Frank's new direction, or any particular album. This "Help, help! I'm being repressed!" kind of complaint really gets my goat. There were quite a few people who made complaints like that on another list I was on, and, annoyingly and inexplicably, the moderator actually took THEIR side. Sure, you're probably going to get some flak for bad-mouthing any of Frank's work on a Frank Black message board, but so what? That's just other people's opinions, which are just as valid as yours. To say that someone offering an opposing opinion equates to a "flogging" is just ridiculous.
"Reunion? Shit union!" |
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puredenizenofthecitizensb
- FB Fan -
Uzbekistan
150 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2005 : 16:16:39
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quote:
Originally posted by VoVat
quote:
The funny thing is, if FB makes a kid's sing-along album or a rap album, we'll all go out and buy it because it's FB. But, if anyone here criticizes it, they will be publicly flogged by the forum cops.
Oh, come on! When has anyone here been "flogged" for their opinions? The only people here who could accurately be considered "list cops" are the three moderators, and I haven't known any of them to ban anyone for saying they didn't like Frank's new direction, or any particular album. This "Help, help! I'm being repressed!" kind of complaint really gets my goat. There were quite a few people who made complaints like that on another list I was on, and, annoyingly and inexplicably, the moderator actually took THEIR side. Sure, you're probably going to get some flak for bad-mouthing any of Frank's work on a Frank Black message board, but so what? That's just other people's opinions, which are just as valid as yours. To say that someone offering an opposing opinion equates to a "flogging" is just ridiculous.
"Reunion? Shit union!"
No, no I only said they would be flogged if they criticized the kid's sing-along or the rap album. And for the record, I never said being flogged was a bad thing. Some people are into being flogged just like some people are into low budget recording.
How come we say Los Angeleez?
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2005 : 17:03:51
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quote:
Originally posted by spaceghost11
Everyone is still defending on principal...Can't get a straight answer out of u long-timers.
your question was "does anyone like the direction he's gone with the catholics?" ..
spend some time going through the archives a bit. this site has been here for a while. i'm guessing you'll find a post or two where people like the Catholics
know what i'm sayin' dawg? |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2005 : 17:11:37
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i actually agree with most of what puredenizen is saying, in terms of hoping for a new direction post-Catholics.. i would love for a new FB solo album to take a new direction, again.. i still have hope though.. the man is full of surprises. that said, i do love the direction he's taken thus far (count me in too spaceghost).. but, yes, would love to see him do something different. but i'm sure he will
know what i'm sayin' dawg? |
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Topic |
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These low budget FB recordings are getting old
