| Author |
 Topic  |
|
TRANSMARINE
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
2002 Posts |
 Posted - 04/07/2005 : 15:57:30
|
So there!
Catchin' blue in his eyes that were brown
-bRIAN |
 |
|
|
TRANSMARINE
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
2002 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2005 : 16:05:02
|
I don't know if it's laziness, ghost (and I haven't heard any of Honeycomb yet, so I can't speak for it per say)...I think it just doesn't do it for you. And that's totally cool, don't get me wrong. I'd kinda like to see him get back into the hollering and whoopin it up. DITS thru SMYT are amazing albums, and of course he's gonna do what he wants to do (because he's the artist), but some days I long for something along the lines of Czar, or even The Marsist again.
Catchin' blue in his eyes that were brown
-bRIAN |
|
|
|
puredenizenofthecitizensb
- FB Fan -
Uzbekistan
150 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2005 : 16:07:08
|
quote:
Originally posted by NimrodsSon
quote:
Originally posted by BLT
I am waiting for the 32-track Frank Black album that will be two full years in the making (at minimum). It will feature studio musicians on hire from Muzak and an audio architecture second to none. Phil Spector will produce it, although his trip from the parking lot to the studio will pass via a metal detector.
Now there's an idea!
ˇViva los Católicos! http://adrianfoster.dmusic.com/
On the other hand, the metal detector might stymie Spector's production style.
GIVE ME ONE LITTLE BLIP AND I'LL TOTALLY FLIP |
Edited by - puredenizenofthecitizensb on 04/07/2005 16:18:21 |
|
|
|
Jason
* Dog in the Sand *
1446 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2005 : 21:02:09
|
quote:
Originally posted by spaceghost11
How can we not expect him to live up to his previous standard of perfect studio albums (all pixies, first 2 FB solo) and well written songs (everything before HC)?
Because human beings change and with time their interests sometimes take a different direction. |
|
|
|
billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Netherlands
6214 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2005 : 23:11:55
|
quote:
Originally posted by spaceghost11
Double tracked means overdubbed--ala vocals in Where is my Mind and guitars in Vamos--and the only "double tracking" in SMYT is the band singing backup or playing guitar at the same time. To be able to correctly debate about studio procedure, one has to be familiar with it, and I dont think that you are billgoodman, not to be contentious.
Ohh do you know the vocals on various Sgt.Pepper and White Album songs, are they double tracked? Yes! Are they overdubbed? No!
Ever heard of ADT?
I'm familiar with recording, I have recorded for years, did I say SMYT was double tracked? NO! Learn to read carefully, I said there were multiple guitar parts and triple vocals, which doesn't mean I thought they were overdubbed. Besides I only wanted to say you are right about Surfer Rosa, I meant that as a nice gesture.
 "I joined the cult of Jon Tiven/Bye!" |
|
|
|
prozacrat
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1186 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2005 : 23:29:23
|
quote:
Originally posted by spaceghost11
Even the Beatles knew better than to keep recording live, in fact they got the hell out of that as fast as they could. Also, citing all of those old examples is misleading because THERE WAS NO OTHER WAY TO RECORD BACK THEN. The most tracks they could use was 4 and the fact that they were using magnetic tape made overdubbing not very fun as the quality loss is significant. I don't buy the romantic, "back to roots", 2 track live crap. It was due to money. Period. I'm as big of a fan of the Catholics recordings as anyone, but it was out of necessity. My point is: now that hes got a bunch of cash, cut the crap and give us some QUALITY, not QUANTITY. HC won't cut it! Give me a new Pixies CD!
I don't think it'd be appropriate to compare it to the Beatles. Yes, at first they recorded most of their instruments live, but they bounced the hell out of those four tracks, over and over again. But even after diving into the world of multi-track recording, towards the end they did record Get Back (Let It Be w/ Spector) almost entirely live. And I really don't think The Beatles, towards the end of their career, recorded live out of necessity. They were some of the richest musicians in the world, and certainly the most famous. Some would argue, saying Let It Be was their worst album, but that's besides the point. The point is that they wanted to. And from everything I've read in interviews, Frank really enjoyed recording that way. The fact that it was cheaper made it that much easier, yes. But it certainly wasn't easier to do technically. If one person missed a note, you couldn't say "well, let's just edit that later." I was engineering a recording session just last week, and towards the end of the session, the band wanted to do everything live in the same room for one song. It took quite a while just to get a decent sound and blend, and many, many, many takes (though I remember Frank saying some songs would have around 25 finished takes before they had one they were pleased with), and we weren't even doing it to two track. The band still had 24 tracks to work with mixing. Frank also invested a good deal of money into all of the recording equipment, and he was very proud of the outcome. I'm sure he could have recorded several albums with all the bells and whistles for the same price, especially with digital recording becoming more and more accessable every day. In fact, I think it's much more expensive to record analog now, and to pay for the engineers to run the equipment, especially when one song takes so much time.
Had to edit a couple grammatical errors there. Sorry. |
Edited by - prozacrat on 04/07/2005 23:39:50 |
|
|
|
prozacrat
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1186 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2005 : 00:53:57
|
quote:
Originally posted by billgoodman
quote:
Originally posted by spaceghost11
Double tracked means overdubbed--ala vocals in Where is my Mind and guitars in Vamos--and the only "double tracking" in SMYT is the band singing backup or playing guitar at the same time. To be able to correctly debate about studio procedure, one has to be familiar with it, and I dont think that you are billgoodman, not to be contentious.
Ohh do you know the vocals on various Sgt.Pepper and White Album songs, are they double tracked? Yes! Are they overdubbed? No!
Ever heard of ADT?
I'm familiar with recording, I have recorded for years, did I say SMYT was double tracked? NO! Learn to read carefully, I said there were multiple guitar parts and triple vocals, which doesn't mean I thought they were overdubbed. Besides I only wanted to say you are right about Surfer Rosa, I meant that as a nice gesture.
"I joined the cult of Jon Tiven/Bye!"
Good point, billgoodman. If we wanted to talk about being lazy, it was the Beatles who first used ADT (It was EMI's technician Ken Townsend I believe, who first put a vocal track on two reels and delayed one by a few milliseconds to give that now-classic ADT sound.) He showed it to John Lennon and he loved it and wanted it on everything, so they could say goodbye to those days of having to take the time to sing the same thing twice. I'm not calling the Beatles lazy, but they loved shortcuts. Though I love the sound of Frank's voice layered with itself at the end of SSMVGD. It's delicious. |
|
|
|
billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Netherlands
6214 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2005 : 02:08:47
|
thanks prozocat!
As long as I'm not described as a person who doesn't know anything about recording
I'm willing to give in and say that everybody's opinion is worth the same, but don't throw mud at me. Because I can show off too!
"I joined the cult of Jon Tiven/Bye!" |
|
|
|
puredenizenofthecitizensb
- FB Fan -
Uzbekistan
150 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2005 : 06:57:42
|
| I don't think it's fair to compare FB & the C's recording methods to the Beatles'. Besides, everyone knows the Beatles broke up because Paul wanted to do more "layered" studio work and Yoko did not. |
|
|
|
prozacrat
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1186 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2005 : 07:20:01
|
| I'm just replying to the previous statement of "even the Beatles knew better than to keep recording live," so I didn't begin that comparison. And even if Paul wanted to do more layered studio work, that doesn't change the fact that despite all the money and equipment they had at their fingertips, it was Paul's idea in the first place to do Get Back. He was the one who originally wanted to go back to the live recording. I'm simply pointing out the fact that a band can return to live recording and not be doing it due to lack of funds. |
|
|
|
puredenizenofthecitizensb
- FB Fan -
Uzbekistan
150 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2005 : 07:55:41
|
I hear ya.
If you've ever been exposed to a UFO like I have... |
|
|
|
billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Netherlands
6214 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2005 : 08:27:16
|
quote:
Originally posted by prozacrat
I'm just replying to the previous statement of "even the Beatles knew better than to keep recording live," so I didn't begin that comparison. And even if Paul wanted to do more layered studio work, that doesn't change the fact that despite all the money and equipment they had at their fingertips, it was Paul's idea in the first place to do Get Back. He was the one who originally wanted to go back to the live recording. I'm simply pointing out the fact that a band can return to live recording and not be doing it due to lack of funds.
McCartney's first (McCartney) was actually not layered
"I joined the cult of Jon Tiven/Bye!" |
|
|
|
spaceghost11
- FB Fan -
USA
26 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2005 : 09:01:54
|
If we want to talk Beatles history, remember that their last recorded album was in fact Abbey Road, it was just released before Let it Be. In fact, they were so disgusted with Let it Be that they all agreed to go back into the studio and record "like they used to". They only lasted one album under the veil of "live recording".
Irrespective of the time it takes to record live vs. not live, THESE LAST FEW ALBUMS SOUND LIKE CRAP! It's not romantic to sound like crap. Period. You guys coddle The Man too much. While I don't agree with most reviews of the Catholics records, there is a certain degree of truth in the fact that they sound like demos and the quality is not what we deserve. We can dance around the issue as much as we want, but i don't think anyone can argue that his catholic albums AS A WHOLE are even close to being on par with the Pixies or even his first two solo efforts. Whether that can be attributed to lesser writing or lesser recording is arguable, but I think it is a combination of both. And God help us all if HC is any indication of his current direction. That CD is hugely underwhelming, and no amount of studio trickery could have saved it.
Seems like I'm being a goat here. Hehe. |
|
|
|
billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Netherlands
6214 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2005 : 09:02:33
|
but he soon went for the layered sound
"I joined the cult of Jon Tiven/Bye!" |
|
|
|
puredenizenofthecitizensb
- FB Fan -
Uzbekistan
150 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2005 : 09:27:05
|
quote:
Originally posted by spaceghost11
You guys coddle The Man too much.
Ain't that the truth! |
|
|
|
floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2005 : 09:33:41
|
quote:
Originally posted by BLT
quote:
Originally posted by speedy_m
Orange ain't got no stinking patches!
Nor Teenager.
 "Join the Cult of Dan Haggerty / And star in low budget mountain man films"
nor yellow
know what i'm sayin' dawg? |
|
|
|
prozacrat
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1186 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2005 : 09:49:00
|
| I know Abbey Road was recorded last. But the main reason Let It Be turned out like crap was because they were trying to film the whole thing, and going into the studio at 8:00am, and heightened bickering amongst the band. It's because they weren't having any fun with it. It had nothing to do with the fact that it was recorded live. In fact, it's quality only went downhill when Phil Spector tried forcing his wall-o-sound on it. Let It Be...Naked is drastically superior, and only has one or two overdubs on it. I've been searching high and low for Glyn Johns mix of the album, which predates Spectors. I've heard many great things about it. But Abbey Road is, I believe, a superior album because they had fun with it. The pressure was off, and they know it would be their last album, and you could tell they were enjoying it. When I listen to a FB&TC album, I can tell they're enjoying what they're doing. From the beginning of the first track of the first FB&TC album you can tell. They were playing the Green Acre's Theme. And as far as Honeycomb goes, many people are forgetting the fact that what we've heard isn't the final cut or final mix of the album. Several of the songs are being cut, And there was still a great deal of mixing to do. Also, Frank Black's influences have changed a great deal (from what he's said in interviews) in the last ten plus years. The sound he's been going for and the peers he's trying to emulate are not the same ones he had when he was in the Pixies. I admit I've had trouble relating to or fully appreciating some of his songwriting on the new album, but I have to remember that I don't listen to all the same music as he does. Music's sphere of influence on everybody is constantly changing, and I don't think Frank Black should be excluded. He can experiment as long as he wants, and find a new voice or sound as much as he wants as far as I'm concerned. He puts more into his music than you'll find from one end of the radio dial to the other. I don't think we "deserve" anything. I've supported his music for thirteen years now, but not once have I considered being owed something more. |
|
|
|
spaceghost11
- FB Fan -
USA
26 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2005 : 10:00:40
|
| God, you people treat him like a spoiled son! Have an opinion! Just because he has new influences doesnt mean it gives him a license to write and record crap! And it especially doesn't mean we have to accept it because "He used to be good." It's useless to get an opinion out of u long-timers because you feel you owe HIM something for his previous successes. I challenge you all, put your pre-conceptions aside and listen to his last 3 cd's. Is this, as a whole, good music? There are gems in there, a great many, but almost half of it is disposable. |
|
|
|
puredenizenofthecitizensb
- FB Fan -
Uzbekistan
150 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2005 : 11:06:35
|
quote:
Originally posted by prozacrat
I know Abbey Road was recorded last. But the main reason Let It Be turned out like crap was because they were trying to film the whole thing, and going into the studio at 8:00am, and heightened bickering amongst the band. It's because they weren't having any fun with it. It had nothing to do with the fact that it was recorded live. In fact, it's quality only went downhill when Phil Spector tried forcing his wall-o-sound on it. Let It Be...Naked is drastically superior, and only has one or two overdubs on it. I've been searching high and low for Glyn Johns mix of the album, which predates Spectors. I've heard many great things about it. But Abbey Road is, I believe, a superior album because they had fun with it. The pressure was off, and they know it would be their last album, and you could tell they were enjoying it. When I listen to a FB&TC album, I can tell they're enjoying what they're doing. From the beginning of the first track of the first FB&TC album you can tell. They were playing the Green Acre's Theme. And as far as Honeycomb goes, many people are forgetting the fact that what we've heard isn't the final cut or final mix of the album. Several of the songs are being cut, And there was still a great deal of mixing to do. Also, Frank Black's influences have changed a great deal (from what he's said in interviews) in the last ten plus years. The sound he's been going for and the peers he's trying to emulate are not the same ones he had when he was in the Pixies. I admit I've had trouble relating to or fully appreciating some of his songwriting on the new album, but I have to remember that I don't listen to all the same music as he does. Music's sphere of influence on everybody is constantly changing, and I don't think Frank Black should be excluded. He can experiment as long as he wants, and find a new voice or sound as much as he wants as far as I'm concerned. He puts more into his music than you'll find from one end of the radio dial to the other. I don't think we "deserve" anything. I've supported his music for thirteen years now, but not once have I considered being owed something more.
I see your point on changing music influences. I've been listening to all kinds of new $#!t. New to me that is.
I was actually a little bit spooked by the "Green Acres" theme at the begining of the first FB & the C's. It sorta got the CD off on the wrong foot. Left a bad taste. Nothing against Green Acres - a fine show.
It would have been way better to start it off with "You f#@&!~% die" a la Surfer Rosa.
Someone here mentioned that the Catholics were basically a bar band and I believe it. I hear a lot of "bar" or "beer" influences in Frank's recent work. I'm being serious.
|
|
|
|
Jason
* Dog in the Sand *
1446 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2005 : 13:42:19
|
You whiners downloaded for free an unfinished version of Honeycomb. It's not like you got ripped off. Why are ya'll so worked up?
And why can't some of you accept that some posters to the Frank Black board like the new music from Frank Black?
|
|
|
|
puredenizenofthecitizensb
- FB Fan -
Uzbekistan
150 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2005 : 15:21:08
|
quote:
Originally posted by Jason
You whiners downloaded for free an unfinished version of Honeycomb. It's not like you got ripped off. Why are ya'll so worked up?
And why can't some of you accept that some posters to the Frank Black board like the new music from Frank Black?
Just in case this topic goes too "Jason" on us, I copied this from the forum's FAQ:
Please be civil on the Forum. Take it to private email if you really want to have a go at someone. Otherwise you're being a vitriolic exhibitionist. And no one likes vitriolic exhibitionists. |
|
|
|
TRANSMARINE
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
2002 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2005 : 16:13:29
|
puredenizen, I don't think Jason was attemtpting to be vitriolic. Like anyone else here, opinion is free. His post seemed to be devoid of any vehement attack. As I've expressed in other threads, and as has been demonstrated and embraced in this topic throught; when a person creates a subject governed by a negative slant, there unfortunately is a backlash or a response almost totally against the expressed viewpoint. Your thread is warranted and correct, because it is your feeling. However, some do get all riled because of their own reasons. In this case, it's usually because Frank Black is idolized and adored here beyond a normalcy, like many 'cult' subjects tend to be. I and many others accept your viewpoint on Frank's current trend, even though we may not agree. The majority of persons on this site are very stable and curteous souls. Some are not. Try not to be persuaded to fuel a storm because another individual doesn't approve of your view. A lot, if not MOST threads here unfortunately become debates that dissentigrate into silliness because of hurt feelings. I have been involved in some of these. Don't be upset with Jason, as I'm sure logically he did not intentionally set out to harm you. He was meerly stating his feelings. Expect a lot of flak here because we (you included!  ) are very opinionated...and stick around, because this place can get very interesting! Welcome aboard!
Catchin' blue in his eyes that were brown
-bRIAN |
|
|
|
billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Netherlands
6214 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2005 : 16:21:33
|
I just don't agree Spaceghost
why try to compare pixies to fb and the c's
they are so different?
what's the point?
I like lo-fi recordings
but I would never say FB's records sound like demos or are lo-fi
they just record like they recorded it begin 1960's
"I joined the cult of Jon Tiven/Bye!" |
Edited by - billgoodman on 04/08/2005 16:23:44 |
|
|
|
puredenizenofthecitizensb
- FB Fan -
Uzbekistan
150 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2005 : 16:44:42
|
Good, smart post Transmarine.
It was a lame attempt on my part to nip any potential vitriolic exhibitionism in the bud.
Jason is not a vitriolic exhibitionist. It was his "you whiners" that really tightened my jaws.
If anyone is a vitriolic exhibitionist, it's me. I started this topic and I'm the one making a big deal out of Jason - whom I do not know - could be a great guy!
It's a good forum and I hope to hang around awhile.
Thanks.
Don't ya rile 'em! |
|
|
|
VoVat
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
9168 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2005 : 17:27:38
|
quote:
While I don't agree with most reviews of the Catholics records, there is a certain degree of truth in the fact that they sound like demos
I'm not really sure why that's such a problem. I guess it is if you've come to expect a certain level of production on finished albums. I certainly don't think there's any problem with the RECORDING quality. I mean, when someone mentions "demos," I tend to think of scratchy old tapes where it's hard to make out the lyrics. The Catholics' albums obviously don't sound like that.
quote:
Have an opinion!
It sounds like they do. It's just different from YOUR opinion.
quote:
And it especially doesn't mean we have to accept it because "He used to be good."
I will admit that, if I've liked an artist's earlier work, I'm usually willing to give them some leeway on newer albums. If I truly ended up hating a Frank album, though, I wouldn't avoid criticizing it just because I loved Teenager of the Year so much. I WOULD, however, be more willing to give it a chance and look for the good parts than I might be with a bad album by somebody else.
"Reunion? Shit union!" |
|
|
|
NimrodsSon
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1938 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2005 : 20:00:09
|
Wow, what an out-of-control thread this has become! Let's remember that (other than what has been said about the Beatles) the instrumental tracks on the greatest album of all time (Pet Sounds) were recorded live (with a few minor overdubs, and of course the vocals were recorded separately) and I would have it absolutely NO other way, period. As anyone who listens to Brian Wilson or Phil Spector knows, recording live is the only way to get the perfect amount of ambient noise and mic leakage. So, as I already said, a better producer would make the Catholics' records sound better, BUT the problem (if one can even say there is one) does not AT ALL lie in the fact that they record live to two-track, and that does not in any way, shape, or form show any amount of laziness, carelessness, or stinginess on the part of Frank and the band; and even though I don't care for the way much of it is produced, I applaud them for their efforts! As many have already said, IF YOU DON"T LIKE THE FACT THAT THEY RECORD LIVE TO TWO-TRACK, DON"T LISTEN TO THE RECORDS and STOP YOUR BITCHING!
ˇViva los Católicos! http://adrianfoster.dmusic.com/ |
|
|
|
puredenizenofthecitizensb
- FB Fan -
Uzbekistan
150 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2005 : 21:07:00
|
Pet Sounds... You mean to tell us the "greatest album of all time" is not a Frank Black & The Catholics album?
It took a long time to complete Pet Sounds. The real issue isn't that FB is recording live, but that he is recording fast and cheap.
Why aren't the apologists defending that horse $#!t?
Anyone can defend live.
GOUGE AWAY! |
Edited by - puredenizenofthecitizensb on 04/08/2005 21:24:24 |
|
|
|
Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2005 : 23:29:37
|
I've been refraining from comment, but if either side would attempt to appreciate that some people have no problem with Frank's recording techniques now and others would prefer to have more produced sounding recordings, then that would certainly foster a more constructive debate.
For me, I do miss records like TOTY. I'd like him to do another one with Eric or even with someone else, with more layering. I enjoy that. I'm also the guy that likes that GBV album everyone else hates because it was produced more and think that some of Robert Pollard's best work is with Doug Gillard. BUT, I have no qualms whatever about the quality of the recordings. Granted, they're probably not as dense as they might be with a multitracked session and continual revision and addition, even songs like Manitoba, but they're still recorded great, sound great, and are on par sonically with an album like Cult of Ray in many ways.
I think the allegation that is upsetting people is that this is all about money and laziness, and anyone who knows anything about FB should know that, while he's not adverse to making a few bucks, he's not all about the money, and he's DEFINITELY not lazy. There are countless examples to back this up. Being called apologists doesn't help matters, either.
At any rate, to me this line of thinking leads to the more is better, and it isn't always. Do we want the man to sound like Britney Spears or some commercial jingle? No. But that is where this line of thinking leads. Obviously the songs would be better, but really, where's the art when computers are digitally tweaking things to make them exactly right? Where's the musicmanship? Is musicmanship a word?!
So while I would like to see another TOTY style album with layers and layers and ... I think that people are overly critical of the live-to-two and not appreciative of the fact that the rawness and truth contained in an off-the-floor live recording are lost in a produced album.
Plus, aside from the tonnes of good albums out there, symphonies are generally recorded live even if it's to more than two tracks. Which reminds me, before Honeycomb, there were rumours of Frank doing his next album with an orchestra. Now THAT'S something I'd like to see!
 "Oh dear / I seem to have joined the Cult of Frank." |
|
|
|
billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Netherlands
6214 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2005 : 00:47:54
|
It's simple, I love alt. country and DITS and SMYT are two of my favourite records.
I love them as any pixies album.
Frank Black is a better singer than in the pixies days
FB and the C's are a better band live than the pixies used to be the first time around.
"I joined the cult of Jon Tiven/Bye!" |
|
|
|
spaceghost11
- FB Fan -
USA
26 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2005 : 07:40:10
|
Amen puredenizen---fast and cheap
Someone defend that.
It kind of feels like we're throwing out complaints about Frank to see how the long-timers spin it to be positive. It's kind of fun, I have to admit. But this devotion has to have limits....and in that respect, it's kind of pointless to have a thread like this. Can't get a straight answer. |
|
|
|
Ziggy
* Dog in the Sand *
United Kingdom
2463 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2005 : 09:10:48
|
| I just second what Cult of Frank said! |
|
|
|
puredenizenofthecitizensb
- FB Fan -
Uzbekistan
150 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2005 : 09:14:12
|
quote:
Originally posted by Cult_Of_Frank
I've been refraining from comment, but if either side would attempt to appreciate that some people have no problem with Frank's recording techniques now and others would prefer to have more produced sounding recordings, then that would certainly foster a more constructive debate.
For me, I do miss records like TOTY. I'd like him to do another one with Eric or even with someone else, with more layering. I enjoy that. I'm also the guy that likes that GBV album everyone else hates because it was produced more and think that some of Robert Pollard's best work is with Doug Gillard. BUT, I have no qualms whatever about the quality of the recordings. Granted, they're probably not as dense as they might be with a multitracked session and continual revision and addition, even songs like Manitoba, but they're still recorded great, sound great, and are on par sonically with an album like Cult of Ray in many ways.
I think the allegation that is upsetting people is that this is all about money and laziness, and anyone who knows anything about FB should know that, while he's not adverse to making a few bucks, he's not all about the money, and he's DEFINITELY not lazy. There are countless examples to back this up. Being called apologists doesn't help matters, either.
At any rate, to me this line of thinking leads to the more is better, and it isn't always. Do we want the man to sound like Britney Spears or some commercial jingle? No. But that is where this line of thinking leads. Obviously the songs would be better, but really, where's the art when computers are digitally tweaking things to make them exactly right? Where's the musicmanship? Is musicmanship a word?!
So while I would like to see another TOTY style album with layers and layers and ... I think that people are overly critical of the live-to-two and not appreciative of the fact that the rawness and truth contained in an off-the-floor live recording are lost in a produced album.
Plus, aside from the tonnes of good albums out there, symphonies are generally recorded live even if it's to more than two tracks. Which reminds me, before Honeycomb, there were rumours of Frank doing his next album with an orchestra. Now THAT'S something I'd like to see!
Anyone who argues in defense or justification of something is an apologist by definition.
I understand and embrace wholeheartedly peoples' acceptance of FB's latest recordings. I'm not trying to dissuade anyone's opinion. Hang on to your ego!
The sound quality of the live recording is not the issue per se (sounds good to me). It goes deeper than that. It's the fast and cheap way in which it's done. What's the hurry?
What's more "Britney Spears" than fast, cheap 'n' easy?
From Frank's FAQ - read it and weep!
All Frank Black and the Catholics albums are recorded live to 2 track. Frank's stated reasons for this include his enjoyment of the discipline and musicality required to make it sound good; the close approximation of a 2 track recording to live sound; and the relative speed, ease, and economy of the method. |
Edited by - puredenizenofthecitizensb on 04/09/2005 09:15:29 |
|
|
|
Jason
* Dog in the Sand *
1446 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2005 : 09:18:29
|
quote:
Originally posted by spaceghost11
But this devotion has to have limits....and in that respect, it's kind of pointless to have a thread like this. Can't get a straight answer.
Yeah, you go to the Frank Black fan board and you find people there who like Frank Black's music. What a surprise! |
Edited by - Jason on 04/09/2005 09:19:49 |
|
|
|
Jason
* Dog in the Sand *
1446 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2005 : 10:30:52
|
quote:
Originally posted by puredenizenofthecitizensb
Anyone who argues in defense or justification of something is an apologist by definition.
You know that apologist has a negative connotation. You only call someone an apologist if you think they're defending something unseemly or they're defending something out of guilt, insecurity, nostalgia, or any other precarious position.
quote:
I'm not trying to dissuade anyone's opinion.
Sez the guy with 15 posts in this thread. 15 posts that all keep drilling the same message into us. You only strayed from your big issue when the word "whiners" offended you so deeply.
As for the whole "fast, cheap and easy" thing, I don't know what music you Catholics haters are into, but that's the way most recording musicians operate. Yes, maybe your heroes in Radiohead and U2 spend lots of time and money getting everything smooth and slick, but that's not where Frank's head has been at for awhile.
And if you just wanna save money there are faster, cheaper, and easier ways of doing it than getting 9 people all playing at the same time and having to start over 25 times because of mistakes, technical glitches, or because something about the take just wasn't right. Some of those better ways of saving money involve overdubs. Most low-budget recordings are overdubbed. Sure, Frank and the Catholics have a unique rapport and professionalism that lets them record live faster and easier than most other bands probably could. But, to Frank and to fans of his work with the Catholics, that's a great argument FOR recording live.
Ya want more reasons?
- A lot of the records Frank is currently most influenced by -- old rock n roll, old country, old jazz, old blues... old stuff -- were recorded live or nearly live. Frank seems to want to follow in those footsteps. And I don't know about you folks, but I would rather a talented musician like Frank do what HE wants with his music rather than what he thinks I or the rest of the smelly public might want from his music. Even if for some reason I wasn't too crazy about what he was doing.
- While the Catholics were around, Frank seemed to be working under the premise that they were primarily a live band. They didn't tour for albums. They just toured. All the time. Like Bob Dylan, like the old country guys, like most everyone in the pre-mid 60s. They went everywhere. Often going to places where most rock bands don't go. There's that old thing that some punk rocker said "You don't tour to promote an album, you put out an album to promote a tour". Frank and the Catholics reminded me of that a lot. The records, snapshots of the songs. |
Edited by - Jason on 04/09/2005 10:40:18 |
|
|
|
spaceghost11
- FB Fan -
USA
26 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2005 : 13:25:54
|
| Once again, it seems that everyone thinks they owe frank and have to rationalize this and that because "It's what he wants". So far, only one man--billgoodman--has said he enjoys alt. country, actually enjoys franks new stuff. Everyone else is defending on principle. Lets talk results--does anyone actually enjoy this direction that FB is going, HC included? I personally enjoy the Pixies a lot more, but that's not to say there aren't FB n C's songs that are as good, because there are. A lot. I think I'm giving off the impression that I'm not a fan. No sirree, I have every CD of his and enjoy the hell out of them. But that's not to say that it's growing tiresome, especially in light of seeing the Pix this last year a few times. It's easy to forget that he was on the cutting edge, only because we've been lulled to sleep by mediocrity punctuated by glimpses of greatness. Not acceptable to see him go that way, I'm sorry. The man is a god, no question, that's why it's so frustrating to see him put out half-baked albums. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
These low budget FB recordings are getting old
