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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~

Belgium
15320 Posts

Posted - 08/29/2007 :  16:37:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The King Of Karaoke

How about the people that get divorced later in life? Aren't they afraid of being alone, broke and miserable?



If 44 counts as "later in life" (you bastard, KOK!), I can answer. I'm broke compared to when I was married but, cliche as it sounds, I am happier than I could have ever *imagined* when I was married. It's never too late to have a kickass life.


I got some heaven in my head
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The King Of Karaoke
> Teenager of the Year <

USA
3759 Posts

Posted - 08/29/2007 :  16:41:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Actually I was thinking like these people that get divorced at 55 and such. My grandmother left my grandfather after 40 something miserable, repressive years at the age of 64. She was dead a year later. Alone in a mobile home in Florida.

------------------
Network - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTN3s2iVKKI
Orwell 1984 - http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5464625623984168940
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trobrianders
> Teenager of the Year <

Papua New Guinea
3302 Posts

Posted - 08/29/2007 :  20:46:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Going by the figures, women are reluctant to stay married (almost 9 in every 10 divorces). It's not marriage that's so scary but the prospect of being divorced and losing the kids that's freaking out men. Maybe that's why men have always tried to control women thoughout history, a cheap way of assuring a continued identity as a father. Some men are asking for it but nine out of ten?

Perhaps men should just do what women want and detach from the idea of a relationship and regress to spreading the seed with no emotional involvement. The world as one big happy kibbutz. Is that what women want? Financial independance and a ratio of ten women to one well-hung stud? Of couse it isn't, no woman's dumb enough to say it even to herself. Anyway the other nine out of ten of us are men not studs.

A clear pattern is emerging, men are interchangeable. It takes some nerve to seperate a father from his kids, kids from their father, when neither want that. But it's socially acceptable now. I don't think it should be quite so acceptable. I can see why women do it though. And I sympathise, because if you're a woman it's real hard to stay married when there's that big green EXIT sign flashing above you the whole time.

Despite the figures we don't quit hoping. We still desire marriage. Ours is in two months and I'm riding high on that. No argument in the world could convince me ours isn't going to be one of the all-time great marriages as defined by both husband and wife.

_______________
Ed is the hoo hoo
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~

Belgium
15320 Posts

Posted - 08/29/2007 :  20:53:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
That's great about your upcoming marriage. Congrats.

I'm not clear on the 9 in 10 figure you quote. Where is it from and what, exactly, is it? The number of people initiating a divorce -- 9 out of 10 times it's the woman leaving the man, is that it?

I also don't get your point about men being interchangeable.


the cure make me want to die, but in a good way -- mr.biscuitdoughhead

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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<

USA
5454 Posts

Posted - 08/29/2007 :  20:57:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
What do you mean by 9 out of 10 women divorce? That's clearly not true. Where did you get that figure?

And as far as men controlling women to avoid divorce, until recently divorce was very rare because the various churches didn't allow it. So that doesn't explain male and female behavior "throughout history".

Edited by - darwin on 08/29/2007 21:01:45
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Srisaket
= Cult of Ray =

Thailand
313 Posts

Posted - 08/29/2007 :  21:09:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
‘Men are interchangeable’ – that’s interesting. Over here it is the other way around, men can and will maintain a mistress (or minor wife) in many instances under the noses of their wives. A husband can divorce his wife and also get first claim on custody of his children in most cases if he can prove to a court that he is more capable of looking after them. The law here is written by men for men and while the divorce rate is high, society is not as accepting of divorced women as it is in other countries.

Am not sure that the above adds in anyway to this thread. I am married and have been for eleven years and won’t pretend that it is a match made in heaven, but I have two daughters and their well being is more important than mine and I believe, rightly or wrongly, that with children two parents is, in most cases better.
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trobrianders
> Teenager of the Year <

Papua New Guinea
3302 Posts

Posted - 08/30/2007 :  02:07:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thank you Kathryn. Yes, the figure I heard was that around 85% of divorces were initiated by women. My comments relate to the UK which seems to be at the sharp end of free world statistics. Other free world nations find more equitable solutions but the UK is different (A repressed culture, Victorian hangover etc.). There is consensus among all interested parties, male and female, within the divorce business; legal, social, health etc. that the system ignores men. In most cases, left to the woman's discretion, divorced men find just outcomes anyway but in a small number of cases women abuse the power accorded them. For instance with visitation rights which are entirely at womens' discretion. If I have a bee in my bonnet, it's about this one thing. A number of recent high profile cases (Bob Geldof) and the Father's For Justice movement has helped shed light on this and reform is very slowly under way. It will take time for the British ostrich to lift its head from the sand.

On the more philosophical point about men controlling women throughout history and men being interchangeable; I'm thinking that, given the absolute free choice, women would prefer a communal, kibbutz-type of life where support comes from all quarters and sex is enjoyed whenever and with whomever it makes sense at the time over traditional monogamy/patriarchy, so long as the kids are alright with it. As financial power becomes more available to women we see patterns emerging which reflect that. This kind of social change, born of real appreciation of growing freedoms, has to be a good thing even though there will be heavy casualties as more men who don't make the grade get sidelined. I'm not sure a growing sub-class of rogue males cruising the streets is really in womens' and childrens' interests. One way or another we're in this together but it's a growing conundrum for women that's for sure.

It's a cliche but the 21st is set to be the woman's century. Every social trend born of growing female emancipation is naturally reflecting that.

_______________
Ed is the hoo hoo

Edited by - trobrianders on 08/30/2007 02:30:43
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cassandra is
> Teenager of the Year <

France
4233 Posts

Posted - 08/30/2007 :  02:13:05  Show Profile  Visit cassandra is's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Homers_pet_monkey

If I was with a French woman, I'd just be happy enough with that.


I'd walk her everyday, into a shady place




why that?



pas de bras pas de chocolat
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~

Belgium
15320 Posts

Posted - 08/30/2007 :  04:33:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by trobrianders

Thank you Kathryn. Yes, the figure I heard was that around 85% of divorces were initiated by women. My comments relate to the UK which seems to be at the sharp end of free world statistics. Other free world nations find more equitable solutions but the UK is different (A repressed culture, Victorian hangover etc.). There is consensus among all interested parties, male and female, within the divorce business; legal, social, health etc. that the system ignores men. In most cases, left to the woman's discretion, divorced men find just outcomes anyway but in a small number of cases women abuse the power accorded them. For instance with visitation rights which are entirely at womens' discretion. If I have a bee in my bonnet, it's about this one thing. A number of recent high profile cases (Bob Geldof) and the Father's For Justice movement has helped shed light on this and reform is very slowly under way. It will take time for the British ostrich to lift its head from the sand.

On the more philosophical point about men controlling women throughout history and men being interchangeable; I'm thinking that, given the absolute free choice, women would prefer a communal, kibbutz-type of life where support comes from all quarters and sex is enjoyed whenever and with whomever it makes sense at the time over traditional monogamy/patriarchy, so long as the kids are alright with it. As financial power becomes more available to women we see patterns emerging which reflect that. This kind of social change, born of real appreciation of growing freedoms, has to be a good thing even though there will be heavy casualties as more men who don't make the grade get sidelined. I'm not sure a growing sub-class of rogue males cruising the streets is really in womens' and childrens' interests. One way or another we're in this together but it's a growing conundrum for women that's for sure.

It's a cliche but the 21st is set to be the woman's century. Every social trend born of growing female emancipation is naturally reflecting that.

_______________
Ed is the hoo hoo



Don't make me play the divorce card, Tro. Then I'd say something like, "Abstract and philosophical gets its ass kicked by reality and fact. Talk to me theoretically about abuse of power and I'll show you my divorce decree. Wanna discuss visitation rights? I'll grant you that some fathers get screwed but I know what it's like to beg a guy to actually see his kid during his agreed-upon 2 days a month of visitation and what it's like to sob in front of attorneys while trying to convince him to accept weekly visitation, not just 2 days a month. Daily I thank god for what you call 'female emancipation' -- because this female's emancipation means a kid isn't growing up in a shitty situation. And, at the risk of sounding sarcastic, next time I can't pay the bills I'll remind myself that this is the 'woman's century'."

tro, like the rap songs say, "I ain't mad atchu." But I am suggesting that you talk to actual people because, and I could be wrong, it sounds like you're quoting text. Again, not mad, sending warm fb.net love.





the cure make me want to die, but in a good way -- mr.biscuitdoughhead

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Homers_pet_monkey
= Official forum monkey =

United Kingdom
17125 Posts

Posted - 08/30/2007 :  06:01:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cassandra is

quote:
Originally posted by Homers_pet_monkey

If I was with a French woman, I'd just be happy enough with that.


I'd walk her everyday, into a shady place




why that?



pas de bras pas de chocolat




Because they are HOT!

ALL of them!


I'd walk her everyday, into a shady place
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cassandra is
> Teenager of the Year <

France
4233 Posts

Posted - 08/30/2007 :  06:27:15  Show Profile  Visit cassandra is's Homepage  Reply with Quote
there you go you naughty boy!!



pas de bras pas de chocolat
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<

USA
5454 Posts

Posted - 08/30/2007 :  09:53:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by trobrianders
On the more philosophical point about men controlling women throughout history and men being interchangeable; I'm thinking that, given the absolute free choice, women would prefer a communal, kibbutz-type of life where support comes from all quarters and sex is enjoyed whenever and with whomever it makes sense at the time over traditional monogamy/patriarchy, so long as the kids are alright with it.



But males (be they humans or other animals) aren't going to help care and provide for offspring if there is a high amount of uncertainty that the offspring are theirs. This has actually been shown in systems as disperse as baboons and great tits. So, if the system went to a sexual free for all females might lose the parental care from males. Monogamy may be the favorable system for females.
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coastline
> Teenager of the Year <

USA
3111 Posts

Posted - 08/30/2007 :  10:13:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by darwin

But males (be they humans or other animals) aren't going to help care and provide for offspring if there is a high amount of uncertainty that the offspring are theirs. This has actually been shown in systems as disperse as baboons and great tits. So, if the system went to a sexual free for all females might lose the parental care from males. Monogamy may be the favorable system for females.

Heh heh.


Please pardon me, for these my wrongs.
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~

Belgium
15320 Posts

Posted - 08/30/2007 :  10:21:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
oh coasty, you weren't here when all we did on general chat was post sex threads. you would have had fun then.


the cure make me want to die, but in a good way -- mr.biscuitdoughhead


Edited by - kathryn on 08/30/2007 10:22:04
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =

Mexico
15297 Posts

Posted - 08/30/2007 :  10:30:51  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by darwin

But males (be they humans or other animals) aren't going to help care and provide for offspring if there is a high amount of uncertainty that the offspring are theirs.




which is best exemplified in this youtube clip http://youtube.com/watch?v=I-4-RJj_fzQ


"I am a troll.. and a fag." -LBF
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Homers_pet_monkey
= Official forum monkey =

United Kingdom
17125 Posts

Posted - 08/30/2007 :  10:34:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You HAVE to laugh.


I'd walk her everyday, into a shady place
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coastline
> Teenager of the Year <

USA
3111 Posts

Posted - 08/30/2007 :  10:42:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kathryn

oh coasty, you weren't here when all we did on general chat was post sex threads. you would have had fun then.


the cure make me want to die, but in a good way -- mr.biscuitdoughhead



Did KOK post YouTube clips?


Please pardon me, for these my wrongs.
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~

Belgium
15320 Posts

Posted - 08/30/2007 :  10:45:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
No but he posted some compelling photos of himself. And I will just leave it at that. No, I will also add that offerw is one hot hunka man. And now I am blushing.


the cure make me want to die, but in a good way -- mr.biscuitdoughhead

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trobrianders
> Teenager of the Year <

Papua New Guinea
3302 Posts

Posted - 08/30/2007 :  10:47:51  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Tuck away the Divorce Card. I promise I won't make you play it. All what you say and more. No dispute. What interests me is have times changed so much that women will seek divorce even when their men are doing the conventional 'right thing' in a marriage? Are women phasing out conventional marriage? Are men really able to meet women's raised expectations? Or are women waiting for an original response from men to their raised expectations? It just seems to me that women have raised the bar to a level that they know men can't meet under the present rules of engagement and are waiting for men to make a similar seizmic shift but men are just trying to wait it out. Women have really exploded onto the scene and most men are rattling in the wake.

The talk to actual people remark bounced off, I'm a guy after all. You'll just have to take it on trust that these thoughts stem from discussions I've had, mostly with 30-40 something women (my age range) who've usually something original to say. Just quoting text is lame and typically male I guess. But anyway I re-read and get why you might think that. Warm fb.net love is the reason I show up. So don't stop.



_______________
Ed is the hoo hoo
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trobrianders
> Teenager of the Year <

Papua New Guinea
3302 Posts

Posted - 08/30/2007 :  10:57:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by darwin

quote:
Originally posted by trobrianders
On the more philosophical point about men controlling women throughout history and men being interchangeable; I'm thinking that, given the absolute free choice, women would prefer a communal, kibbutz-type of life where support comes from all quarters and sex is enjoyed whenever and with whomever it makes sense at the time over traditional monogamy/patriarchy, so long as the kids are alright with it.



Monogamy may be the favorable system for females.

I agree unless something better is in the offing. Only women have radar for that. That's my point.

_______________
Ed is the hoo hoo
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Homers_pet_monkey
= Official forum monkey =

United Kingdom
17125 Posts

Posted - 08/30/2007 :  10:58:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by trobrianders



Warm fb.net love is the reason I show up.

_______________
Ed is the hoo hoo



So it's not for floop's Apocalypto musings?


I'd walk her everyday, into a shady place
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~

Belgium
15320 Posts

Posted - 08/30/2007 :  11:00:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by trobrianders

Tuck away the Divorce Card. I promise I won't make you play it. All what you say and more. No dispute. What interests me is have times changed so much that women will seek divorce even when their men are doing the conventional 'right thing' in a marriage? Are women phasing out conventional marriage? Are men really able to meet women's raised expectations? Or are women waiting for an original response from men to their raised expectations? It just seems to me that women have raised the bar to a level that they know men can't meet under the present rules of engagement and are waiting for men to make a similar seizmic shift but men are just trying to wait it out. Women have really exploded onto the scene and most men are rattling in the wake.

The talk to actual people remark bounced off, I'm a guy after all. You'll just have to take it on trust that these thoughts stem from discussions I've had, mostly with 30-40 something women (my age range) who've usually something original to say. Just quoting text is lame and typically male I guess. But anyway I re-read and get why you might think that. Warm fb.net love is the reason I show up. So don't stop.



_______________
Ed is the hoo hoo



Oh thanks a lot, now I have KC and the Sunshine Band's "Keep it coming love" in my head. You bastard!

I dunno what you mean about women raising expectations or the bar or present rules of engagement. I do know that mine is a generation of women (I'm in my 40s) who have university degrees, unlike our mothers who had no means of supporting themselves and so stayed and took the crap.


the cure make me want to die, but in a good way -- mr.biscuitdoughhead


Edited by - kathryn on 08/30/2007 11:01:00
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<

USA
5454 Posts

Posted - 08/30/2007 :  11:07:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by trobrianders
I agree unless something better is in the offing. Only women have radar for that. That's my point.



Why would that be?
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trobrianders
> Teenager of the Year <

Papua New Guinea
3302 Posts

Posted - 08/30/2007 :  11:13:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by darwin

quote:
Originally posted by trobrianders
I agree unless something better is in the offing. Only women have radar for that. That's my point.



Why would that be?

Hmmm. Why do I agree? Or Why might something better be in the offing? Or why do only women have radar for that? Or why am I making that point? Try harder. Men need to try harder.

_______________
Ed is the hoo hoo
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~

Belgium
15320 Posts

Posted - 08/30/2007 :  11:14:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by darwin

quote:
Originally posted by trobrianders
I agree unless something better is in the offing. Only women have radar for that. That's my point.



Why would that be?



Yeah. And I think darwin can frame this in a more cogent way but wouldn't you think that because it's women who get, um, saddled with most of child-rearing it's women who are more likely to stick it out in a two-parent situation? Plus, empirically, I know more men who stray maritally than women. Again, awaiting darwin who actually knows what's he's talking about.



the cure make me want to die, but in a good way -- mr.biscuitdoughhead

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trobrianders
> Teenager of the Year <

Papua New Guinea
3302 Posts

Posted - 08/30/2007 :  11:18:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kathryn
I dunno what you mean about women raising expectations or the bar or present rules of engagement. I do know that mine is a generation of women (I'm in my 40s) who have university degrees, unlike our mothers who had no means of supporting themselves and so stayed and took the crap.


the cure make me want to die, but in a good way -- mr.biscuitdoughhead



Now that's just coy! But maybe a slip? You sort of agree with me that men are only capable of delivering crap? I'm just saying men need to try harder is all. My god if women aren't worth it I don't wanna live.

_______________
Ed is the hoo hoo
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~

Belgium
15320 Posts

Posted - 08/30/2007 :  11:23:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by trobrianders

quote:
Originally posted by kathryn
I dunno what you mean about women raising expectations or the bar or present rules of engagement. I do know that mine is a generation of women (I'm in my 40s) who have university degrees, unlike our mothers who had no means of supporting themselves and so stayed and took the crap.


the cure make me want to die, but in a good way -- mr.biscuitdoughhead



Now that's just coy! But maybe a slip? You sort of agree with me that men are only capable of delivering crap? I'm just saying men need to try harder is all. My god if women aren't worth it I don't wanna live.

_______________
Ed is the hoo hoo



How am I being coy? And, honey, I know plenty of men who are wonderful. I never said that an entire gender is only capable of one thing and one thing only. Some men need to try harder, some women, too. I guess I've lost the point now.

I was speaking to your point about women casually looking for the next best thing and putting that in the context of my lucky and relief at being able to leave a bad situation, in contrast to past/recent generations of women.


the cure make me want to die, but in a good way -- mr.biscuitdoughhead

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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<

USA
5454 Posts

Posted - 08/30/2007 :  11:25:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
My question was why only women have a radar for that.

Your postings seem to imply that women are mythical creatures that are a world's difference from men. I do think that roughly our evolutionary history has shaped men and women to seek different things. Men may be after multiple fertile women because men can impregnate a unlimited number of women. Whereas women have to carry the baby for 9 months and then usually provide most of the childcare. So, women benefit from being more choosy than men and in some systems trying to find a mate that is going to provide high quality parental care. But I don't think that means only women are trying to shape the system to fit their needs; men are capable of that as well.
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trobrianders
> Teenager of the Year <

Papua New Guinea
3302 Posts

Posted - 08/30/2007 :  11:45:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I know you're not attacking all men. But I am. Nothing 'casual' about survival Kathryn. Women are stepping up but where are the men? That's how I feel about it.

_______________
Ed is the hoo hoo
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trobrianders
> Teenager of the Year <

Papua New Guinea
3302 Posts

Posted - 08/30/2007 :  11:51:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by darwin

My question was why only women have a radar for that.

Your postings seem to imply that women are mythical creatures that are a world's difference from men. I do think that roughly our evolutionary history has shaped men and women to seek different things. Men may be after multiple fertile women because men can impregnate a unlimited number of women. Whereas women have to carry the baby for 9 months and then usually provide most of the childcare. So, women benefit from being more choosy than men and in some systems trying to find a mate that is going to provide high quality parental care. But I don't think that means only women are trying to shape the system to fit their needs; men are capable of that as well.

Why only women have a radar for determining what best meets their needs? You're joking, right? Just think of how you go about your daily day. The things you do, small and large, tend to meet your daily needs, no? Nothing mythical about that.

I believe you're right Darwin, we are capable of shaping the system to fit our needs as well as women. Right now we're just too phased to start. We gotta shape up, the women are waiting.

_______________
Ed is the hoo hoo

Edited by - trobrianders on 08/30/2007 11:52:41
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trobrianders
> Teenager of the Year <

Papua New Guinea
3302 Posts

Posted - 08/30/2007 :  12:11:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by darwin

[quote]Originally posted by trobrianders
I agree unless something better is in the offing. Only women have radar for that. That's my point.

I actually believe women are choosing something better. But Kathryn took this remark to mean that women are casually shopping around and screwing men over. Like I said, nothing casual about survival. Why aren't men stepping up is the real question.


_______________
Ed is the hoo hoo
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<

USA
5454 Posts

Posted - 08/30/2007 :  12:17:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I don't even know you mean about survival. Survival of what?
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trobrianders
> Teenager of the Year <

Papua New Guinea
3302 Posts

Posted - 08/30/2007 :  13:05:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
What would the other Darwin mean by survival?

_______________
Ed is the hoo hoo
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<

Canada
6556 Posts

Posted - 08/30/2007 :  13:09:11  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kathryn

quote:
Originally posted by trobrianders

Tuck away the Divorce Card. I promise I won't make you play it. All what you say and more. No dispute. What interests me is have times changed so much that women will seek divorce even when their men are doing the conventional 'right thing' in a marriage? Are women phasing out conventional marriage? Are men really able to meet women's raised expectations? Or are women waiting for an original response from men to their raised expectations? It just seems to me that women have raised the bar to a level that they know men can't meet under the present rules of engagement and are waiting for men to make a similar seizmic shift but men are just trying to wait it out. Women have really exploded onto the scene and most men are rattling in the wake.

The talk to actual people remark bounced off, I'm a guy after all. You'll just have to take it on trust that these thoughts stem from discussions I've had, mostly with 30-40 something women (my age range) who've usually something original to say. Just quoting text is lame and typically male I guess. But anyway I re-read and get why you might think that. Warm fb.net love is the reason I show up. So don't stop.



_______________
Ed is the hoo hoo



Oh thanks a lot, now I have KC and the Sunshine Band's "Keep it coming love" in my head. You bastard!

I dunno what you mean about women raising expectations or the bar or present rules of engagement. I do know that mine is a generation of women (I'm in my 40s) who have university degrees, unlike our mothers who had no means of supporting themselves and so stayed and took the crap.


the cure make me want to die, but in a good way -- mr.biscuitdoughhead





Also the last generation did not have access to our present day birth control. That has made huge differences in the selection process itself.

__________
Fuck off I got work to do.
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<

USA
5454 Posts

Posted - 08/30/2007 :  13:12:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by trobrianders

What would the other Darwin mean by survival?

_______________
Ed is the hoo hoo



Papa Bear Darwin would be referring to the passing of one's genes onto the next generation. Absolutely not the survival of the species. But that doesn't answer what are you talking about?
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