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mefa
- FB Fan -
10 Posts |
 Posted - 12/06/2004 : 00:42:49
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VERY IMPORTANT FOR YOU :
You will read briefly about :
1- Islam and Muslims
2- Allah ( God )
3-Jesus
4- Muhammad
5-Continuity of the Message
6- The Qur'an
7- Peace
1- Islam and Muslims
The word "Islam" is an Arabic word which means "submission to the will of God". This word comes from the same root as the Arabic word "salam", which means "peace". As such, the religion of Islam teaches that in order to achieve true peace of mind and surety of heart, one must submit to God and live according to His Divinely revealed Law. The most important truth that God revealed to mankind is that there is nothing divine or worthy of being worshipped except for Almighty God, thus all human beings should submit to Him. The word "Muslim" means one who submits to the will of God, regardless of their race, nationality or ethnic background. Being a Muslim entails willful submission and active obedience to God, and living in accordance with His message. Some people mistakenly believe that Islam is just a religion for Arabs, but nothing could be further from the truth. Not only are there converts to Islam in every corner of the world, especially in England and America, but by taking a look at the Muslim World from Bosnia to Nigeria, and from Indonesia to Morocco, one can clearly see that Muslims come from many various races, ethnic groups and nationalities. It is also interesting to note that in actuality, more than 80% of all Muslims are not Arabs - there are more Muslims in Indonesia than in the whole Arab World! So though even though it is true that most Arabs are Muslims, the large majority of Muslims are not Arabs. However, anyone who submits completely to God and worships Him alone is a Muslim.
2- Allah (God)
Islam is the complete submission and obedience to Allah (God). The name Allah (God) in Islam never refers to Muhammad, as many Christians may think; Allah is the personal name of God. What do Muslims believe about Allah?
1. He is the one God, Who has no partner.
2. Nothing is like Him. He is the Creator, not created, nor a part of His creation.
3. He is All-Powerful, absolutely Just.
4. There is no other entity in the entire universe worthy of worship besides Him.
5. He is First, Last, and Everlasting; He was when nothing was, and will be when nothing else remains.
6. He is the All-Knowing, and All-Merciful,the Supreme, the Sovereign.
7. It is only He Who is capable of granting life to anything.
8. He sent His Messengers (peace be upon them) to guide all of mankind.
9. Allah sent down four heavenly books. They are the Tawraat (Torah), Injeel (Gospel), Zaboor (Psalms) and the Qur’an.
10. He sent Muhammad (pbuh) as the last Prophet and Messenger for all mankind.
11. The Holy Qur'an is the only authentic revealed book in the world that has been kept without change.
12. Allah knows what is in our hearts.
These are some of the basic guidelines Muslims follow in their knowledge of God:
1. Eliminate any anthropomorphism (human qualities) from their conception of Allah. His attributes are not like human attributes, despite similar labels or appellations.
2. Have unwavering faith in exactly what Allah and Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) described Allah to be, no more, no less.
3. Eradicate any hope or desire of learning or knowing the modality of His names and attributes.
4. Belief totally in all the names and attributes of Allah; one cannot believe in some and disbelieve the others.
5. One cannot accept the names of Allah without their associated attributes, i.e. one cannot say He is 'The Living' and then say that He is without life.
6. Similarity in names (or meanings) does not imply similarity in what is being described (referents). As a robotics arm differs from a human arm, so the "hand" of Allah is nothing like a human hand, His speech is nothing like human speech, etc
3- Jesus
Islam honors all the prophets who were sent to mankind. Muslims respect all prophets in general, but Jesus in particular, because he was one of the prophets who foretold the coming of Muhammad. Muslims, too, await the second coming of Jesus. They consider him one of the greatest of Allah's prophets to mankind. A Muslim does not refer to him simply as "Jesus," but normally adds the phrase "peace be upon him" as a sign of respect. They add the same phrase to other prophets.
No other religion in the world respects and dignifies Jesus as Islam does. The Qur'an confirms his virgin birth (a chapter of the Qur'an is entitled "Mary"), and Mary is considered to have been one of the purest women in all creation. The Qur'an describes Jesus' birth as follows:
"Behold!' the Angel said, God has chosen you, and purified you, and chosen you above the women of all nations. Mary, God gives you good news of a word from Him, whose name shall be the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, honored in this world and in the Hereafter, and one of those brought near to God. He shall speak to the people from his cradle and in maturity, and he shall be of the righteous. She said: "My Lord! How shall I have a son when no man has touched me?' He said: "Even so; God creates what He will. When He decrees a thing, He says to it, 'Be!' and it is." [3:42-47]
Muslims believe that Jesus was born immaculately, and through the same power which had brought Eve to life and Adam into being without a father or a mother. "Truly, the likeness of Jesus with God is as the likeness of Adam. He created him of dust, and then said to him, 'Be!' and he was." [3:59]
During his prophetic mission, Jesus performed many miracles. The Qur'an tells us that he said:
"I have come to you with a sign from your Lord: I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it and it becomes a bird by God's leave. And I heal the blind, and the lepers, and I raise the dead by God's leave." [3:49] Muhammad and Jesus, as well as the other prophets, were sent to confirm the belief in one God. This is referred to in the Qur'an where Jesus is reported as saying that he came:
"To attest the law which was before me, and to make lawful to you part of what was forbidden you; I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, so fear God and obey me." [3:50]
Prophet Muhammad emphasized the importance of Jesus by saying:
"Whoever believes there is no god but Allah, alone without partner, that Muhammad is His messenger, that Jesus is a servant and messenger of God, His word breathed into Mary and a spirit emanating from Him, and that Paradise and Hell are true, shall be received by God into Heaven.
4- Muhammad
Muhammad (pbuh) was an illiterate but wise and well-respected man who was born in Makkah in the year 570 C.E., at a time when Christianity was not yet fully established in Europe. His first years were marked by the deaths of his parents. Since his father died before his birth, his uncle, Abu Talib, from the respected tribe of Quraysh, raised him. As Muhammad (pbuh) grew up, he became known for his truthfulness, generosity and sincerity, so that he was sought after for his ability to arbitrate in disputes. His reputation and personal qualities also led to his marriage, at the age of twenty-five, to Khadijah, a widow whom he had assisted in business. Thenceforth, he became an important and trusted citizen of Makkah. Historians describe him as calm and meditative.
Muhammad (pbuh) never felt fully content to be part of a society whose values he considered to be devoid of true religious significance. It became his habit to retreat from time to time to the cave of Hira', to meditate near the summit of Jabal al-Nur, the "Mountain of Light", near Makkah.
At the age of 40, while engaged in one such meditative retreat, Muhammad (pbuh) received his first revelation from God through the Angel Gabriel. This revelation, which continued for twenty-three years, is known as the Qur'an, the faithful recording of the entire revelation of God. The first revelation read:
"Recite: In the name of your Lord Who created man from a clot (of blood). Recite: Your Lord is Most Noble, Who taught by the pen, taught man what he did not know." [96:1-5]
It was this reality that he gradually and steadily came to learn and believe, until he fully realized that it is the truth.
His first convert was Khadijah, whose support and companionship provided necessary reassurance and strength. He also won the support of some of his relatives and friends. Three basic themes of the early message were the majesty of the one, unique God, the futility of idol worship, the threat of judgment, and the necessity of faith, compassion and morality in human affairs. All these themes represented an attack on the crass materialism and idolatry prevalent in Makkah at the time. So when he began to proclaim the message to others the Makkans rejected him. He and his small group of followers suffered bitter persecution, which grew so fierce that in the year 622 C.E., God gave them the command to emigrate. This event, the Hijrah (migration), in which they left Makkah for the city of Madinah, some 260 miles to the north, marked the beginning of a new era and thus the beginning of the Muslim calendar. During his suffering, Muhammad (pbuh) drew comfort from the knowledge revealed to him about other prophets, such as Abraham, Joseph, and Moses, each of whom had also been persecuted and tested.
After several years and some significant battles, the Prophet and his followers were able to return to Makkah, where they forgave their enemies and established Islam definitively. By the time the Prophet died, at the age of 63, the greater part of Arabia had accepted Islam, and within a century of his death, Islam had spread as far west as Spain and as far east as China. It was clear that the message was not limited to Arabs; it was for the whole of humanity.
The Prophet's sayings (Hadith), are also believed to be revelation. The number of sayings collected by his followers and scholars is about 10,000. Some typical examples of his sayings are as follows:
"To pursue knowledge is obligatory on every believing (man and woman)." [Ibn Majah]
"Removing a harmful thing from the road is charity." [Bukhari, Muslim]
"Those who do not show tenderness and love cannot expect to have tenderness shown to them." [Bukhari]
"Adore Allah (God) as though you see Him; even if you do not see Him, He nonetheless sees you." {Bukhari, Muslim]
Although Muhammad is deeply loved, revered and emulated by Muslims as God's final messenger, he is not an object of worship.
5- Continuity of the Message
Islam is not a new religion because "submission to the will of God", i.e. Islam, has always been the only acceptable religion in the sight of God. For this reason, Islam is the true "natural religion", and it is the same eternal message revealed through the ages to all of God's prophets and messengers. Muslims believe that all of God's prophets, which include Abraham, Noah, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, brought the same message of Pure Monotheism. For this reason, the Prophet Muhammad was not the founder of a new religion, as many people mistakenly think, but he was the Final Prophet of Islam. By revealing His final message to Muhammad, which is an eternal and universal message for all of mankind, God finally fulfilled the covenant that He made with Abraham, who was one of the earliest and greatest prophets. Suffice it to say that the way of Islam is the same as the way of the prophet Abraham, because both the Bible and the Qur'an portray Abraham as a towering example of someone who submitted himself completely to God and worshipped Him without intermediaries. Once this is realized, it should be clear that Islam has the most continuous and universal message of any religion, because all prophets and messengers were "Muslims", i.e. those who submitted to God's will, and they preached "Islam", i.e. submission to the will of Almighty God.
6- The Qur'an
The Arabic word "Al-Qur'an" literally means "the recitation". When used in regards to Islam, the word Qur'an means God's final message to mankind that was revealed to the Prophet Muhammad. The Qu'ran, sometimes spelled Koran, is the literal word of God - as it clearly says time and time again. Unlike other sacred scriptures, the Qur'an has been perfectly preserved in both its words and meaning in a living language. The Qu'ran is a living miracle in the Arabic language; and is know to be inimitable in its style, form and spiritual impact. God's final revelation to mankind, the Qur'an, was revealed to the Prophet Muhammad over a period of 23 years. The Qur'an, in contrast to many other religious books, was always thought to be the Word of God by those who believed in it, i.e. it wasn't something decreed by a religious council many years after being written. Also, the Qu'ran was recited publicly in front of both the Muslim and non-Muslim communities during the life of the Prophet Muhammad. The entire Qur'an was also completely written down in lifetime of the Prophet, and numerous companions of the Prophet memorized the entire Qur'an word-for-word as it was revealed. So unlike other scriptures, the Qur'an was always in the hands of the common believers, it was always thought to be God's word and, due to wide-spread memorization, it was perfectly preserved. In regards to the teachings of the Qur'an - it is a universal scripture, and it is addressed to all of mankind, and not to a particular tribe or "chosen people". The message that it brings is nothing new, but the same message of all of the prophets - submit to Almighty God and worship Him alone. As such, God's revelation in the Qur'an focuses on teaching human beings the importance of believing in the Unity of God and framing their lives around the guidance which He has sent. Additionally, the Qur'an contains the stories of the previous prophets, such as Abraham, Noah, Moses and Jesus; as well as many commands and prohibitions from God. In modern times in which so many people are caught up in doubt, spiritual despair and "political correctness", the Qur'anic teachings offer solutions to the emptiness of our lives and the turmoil that is gripping the world today. In short, the Qur'an is the book of guidance par excellence.
7- Peace
"Peace" is the most common word on a Muslim's tongue. Whenever two people meet, they exchange greetings, wishing each other peace: "Peace be upon you." But peace cannot prevail except through justice. Since the concept of justice may differ from one man to another, or from one society to another, Muslims believe that real justice is that which is specified by Allah (God).
Islam permits fighting in self-defense, in defense of the religion, or by those who have been expelled forcibly from their homes. At the same time, Islam requires one to treat one's enemy mercifully. It lays down strict rules of combat which include prohibitions against harming civilians and against destroying crops, trees, and livestock. Islam also requires that if an enemy declares his desire to end hostilities and seek peace, the Muslims must do the same.
The concept of Jihad (struggling in the cause of Allah) is stated in the Qur'an. Allah said: "Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits. God does not love transgressors." [2:19] Jihad is never to be waged to force anybody to choose a particular religion. On the contrary, it is to waged to protect his right to choose freely. Therefore, if there is a force in the world that tries to prevent a person from practicing this right, Jihad may lead to fighting the force that is trying to prevent him from exercising free will.
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Boxcar Waiting
- FB Fan -
United Kingdom
64 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2004 : 01:45:19
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Edited by - Boxcar Waiting on 12/06/2004 01:47:25 |
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n/a
deleted
4109 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2004 : 01:57:06
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I just can´t read it...it´s too long...the only long posts that I read is Frank Black´s interviews!!!
i've never done good things
i've never done bad things
i never did anything out of the blue
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mun chien andalusia
= Quote Accumulator =
Italy
2139 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2004 : 02:03:48
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hmmm... nice. and why exactly would this be important for me? apart the fact that this "islam is good" propaganda is missing some crucial info (like who is meant to interpretate the koran) muslims are exactly like anyone else, they think they are right. well they are wrong like anyone else.
 join the cult of errol\and you can have a beer\without having to quit smoking
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GypsyDeath
Zapped Profile
3575 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2004 : 02:47:33
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what an interesting place to come and preach....
Now I do as I please and lie through my teeth. Someone might get hurt but it won't be me. I should probably feel cheap but I just feel free and a little bit empty. No it isn't so hard to get close to me. There will be no arguments. We will always agree. And I will try and be kind when I ask you to leave. We will both take it easy. But if you stay too long inside my memory, I will trap you in a song tied to a melody and I will keep you there so you can't bother me. |
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mun chien andalusia
= Quote Accumulator =
Italy
2139 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2004 : 03:58:23
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well thinking about it you are right:
"Therefore, if there is a force in the world that tries to prevent a person from practicing this right, Jihad may lead to fighting the force that is trying to prevent him from exercising free will."
how about preaching less and acting more?
join the cult of errol\and you can have a beer\without having to quit smoking
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two reelers
* Dog in the Sand *
Austria
1036 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2004 : 04:40:33
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* practically, why is it, that countries with islamic foundations (e.g. saudi-arabia, iran, turkish republic, paksistan) suppress people, ethical minorities and human rights more than "western" countries ?
* practically, why is it, that countries with islamic foundations suppress women much more than "western" countries ?
* practically, why is it, that countries with islamic foundations are governed by dictator-like regimes ?
* practically, why is it, that the regimes of countries with islamic foundations are ways more corrupt than "western" countries ?
i don't care much about the religion of individuals. if cat stevens thinks islam is fine, then it is surely okay for him and he is right, if it makes him happy. but i do care about the effects on society - and the above statements are a fact. the islam society never had a rational counter-revolution, like europe had. imo, this is a big advantage of the "western/capitalist" system. of course, there are disadvantages too, but i can chose my environment. i suppose most people in iran & suadi-arabia would like to get rid of their fundamental dictators, but they can't chose. and this is too because the dictatorical leadership is intrinsically tied with the (non-)development of islam.
i don't think there is a clash between christians & muslims, but there is a clash between the religious-influenced (like the muslims) and the rational western system.
I joined the cult of Souled American / 'cause they are a damn' fine band |
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Hatchetman
- FB Fan -
United Kingdom
234 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2004 : 04:58:19
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quote:
Originally posted by mefa
VERY IMPORTANT FOR YOU :
Blah blah blah etc.
So......... what's your point?
Ade
As the air conditioner hummed.... |
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mefa
- FB Fan -
10 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2004 : 05:20:36
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I greet everyone in this forum . |
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GypsyDeath
Zapped Profile
3575 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2004 : 05:31:17
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erm, out of interest, do you know who frank black is, or the pixies? or are you here purely to tell us whats important to us?
Now I do as I please and lie through my teeth. Someone might get hurt but it won't be me. I should probably feel cheap but I just feel free and a little bit empty. No it isn't so hard to get close to me. There will be no arguments. We will always agree. And I will try and be kind when I ask you to leave. We will both take it easy. But if you stay too long inside my memory, I will trap you in a song tied to a melody and I will keep you there so you can't bother me. |
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n/a
deleted
4109 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2004 : 05:36:30
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I think it what´s important for Mefa...That´s what it looks like!
i've never done good things
i've never done bad things
i never did anything out of the blue
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GypsyDeath
Zapped Profile
3575 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2004 : 06:02:44
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just on the subject of religion and the like... i just got sent a beautiful example of religious art;
Now I do as I please and lie through my teeth. Someone might get hurt but it won't be me. I should probably feel cheap but I just feel free and a little bit empty. No it isn't so hard to get close to me. There will be no arguments. We will always agree. And I will try and be kind when I ask you to leave. We will both take it easy. But if you stay too long inside my memory, I will trap you in a song tied to a melody and I will keep you there so you can't bother me. |
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GypsyDeath
Zapped Profile
3575 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2004 : 06:07:28
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Also, theres alot of contradictions in the Qur'an, isnt there Mefa, which you appear to have miraculously left out....infact, there are so many, that there is an entire, indpeth, very extensive web site about them -
http://answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/
Now I do as I please and lie through my teeth. Someone might get hurt but it won't be me. I should probably feel cheap but I just feel free and a little bit empty. No it isn't so hard to get close to me. There will be no arguments. We will always agree. And I will try and be kind when I ask you to leave. We will both take it easy. But if you stay too long inside my memory, I will trap you in a song tied to a melody and I will keep you there so you can't bother me. |
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GypsyDeath
Zapped Profile
3575 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2004 : 06:15:03
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here is a quick over look at the contradictions, just 'internally'
Internal Contradictions:
And it just doesn't add up: Sura 4:11-12 and 4:176 state the Qur'anic inheritance law. When a man dies, and is leaving behind three daughters, his two parents and his wife, they will receive the respective shares of 2/3 for the 3 daughters together, 1/3 for the parents together [both according to verse 4:11] and 1/8 for the wife [4:12] which adds up to more than the available estate. A second example: A man leaves only his mother, his wife and two sisters, then they receive 1/3 [mother, 4:11], 1/4 [wife, 4:12] and 2/3 [the two sisters, 4:176], which again adds up to 15/12 of the available property.
How many angels were talking to Mary? When the Qur'an speaks about the announciation of the birth of Jesus to the virgin Mary, Sura 3:42,45 speaks about (several) angels while it is only one in Sura 19:17-21.
Further numerical discrepancies Does Allah's day equal to 1,000 human years (Sura 22:47, 32:5) or 50,000 human years (Sura 70:4)? --- How many gardens are there in paradise? ONE [as stated in 39:73, 41:30, 57:21, 79:41] or MANY [18:31, 22:23, 35:33, 78:32]? --- According to Sura 56:7 there will be THREE distinct groups of people at the Last Judgement, but 90:18-19, 99:6-8, etc. mention only TWO groups. --- There are conflicting views on who takes the souls at death: THE Angel of Death [32:11], THE angels (plural) [47:27] but also "It is Allah that takes the souls (of men) at death." [39:42]
Angels have 2, 3, or 4 pairs of wings [35:1]. But Gabriel had 600 wings. [Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 54, Number 455]
How many days did Allah need to destroy the people of Aad? One day [54:19] or several days [41:16; 69:6,7]
Six or eight days of creation? Sura 7:54, 10:3, 11:7, and 25:59 clearly state that God created "the heavens and the earth" in six days. But in 41:9-12 the detailed description of the creation procedure adds up to eight days.
Quick or Slow Creation? Allah creates the heavens and the earth in six days [7:54] and many Muslims want to be modern and scientific, and make that six eons, but then again, He creates instantaneously [2:117], "Be! And it is".
Heavens or Earth? Which was created first? First earth and then heaven [2:29], heaven and after that earth [79:27-30].
Calling together or ripping apart? In the process of creation heaven and earth were first apart and are called to come together [41:11], while 21:30 states that they were originally one piece and then ripped apart.
What was man created from? A blood clot [96:1-2], water [21:30, 24:45, 25:54], "sounding" (i.e. burned) clay [15:26], dust [3:59, 30:20, 35:11], nothing [19:67] and this is then denied in 52:35, earth [11:61], a drop of thickened fluid [16:4, 75:37]
Fully Detailed Or Incomplete? The Qur'an claims for itself to be (fully) detailed, that nothing is left out of the book [6:38, 6:114, 12:111, 16:89 etc.]. However there are plenty of important issues which are left unclear in the Qur'an. This article discusses the confusion found in the quranic statements on wine.
Worshiping the Same or a Different God? Muhammad is commanded to speak to the disbelievers: ... nor do you worship what I worship [109:3]. However, other verses in the Qur'an state clearly that those disbelieving his message are in fact worshiping the same God, Allah.
To Intercede or Not To Intercede? - That is the Question! The Qur'an makes contradictory statements whether on the Day of Judgment intercession will be possible. No: [2:122-123, 254; 6:51; 82:18-19; etc.]. Yes: [20:109; 34:23; 43:86; 53:26; etc.]. Each position can be further supported by ahadith.
Where is Allah and his throne? Allah is nearer than the jugular vein [50:16], but he is also on the throne [57:4] which is upon the water [11:7], and at the same time so far away, that it takes between 1,000 and 50,000 years to reach him [32:5, 70:4].
The origin of calamity? Is the evil in our life from Satan [38:41], Ourselves [4:79], or Allah [4:78]?
How merciful is Allah's mercy? He has prescribed mercy for himself [6:12], yet he does not guide some, even though he could [6:35, 14:4].
Will there be inquiry in Paradise? "neither will they question one another" [23:101] but nevertheless they will be "engaging in mutual inquiry" [52:25], "and they will ... question one another" [37:27].
Are angels protectors? "NO protector besides Allah" [2:107, 29:22]. But in Sura 41:31 the angels themselves say: "We are your protectors in this life and the Hereafter." And also in other suras is their role described as guarding [13:11, 50:17-18] and protecting [82:10].
Is everything devoutly obedient to Allah? That is the claim in 30:26, but dozens of verses speak of the proud disobedience of Satan [7:11, 15:28-31, 17:61, 20:116, 38:71-74, 18:50] as well of many different human beings who reject His commands and His revelations.
Does Allah forgive shirk? Shirk is considered the worst of all sins, but the author of the Qur'an seems unable to decide if Allah will ever forgive it or not. No [4:48, 116], Yes [4:153, 25:68-71]. Abraham committed this sin of polytheism as he takes moon, sun, stars to be his Lord [6:76-78], yet Muslims believe that all prophets are without any sin.
The event of worship of the golden calf: The Israelites repented about worshipping the golden calf BEFORE Moses returned from the mountain [7:149], yet they refused to repent but rather continued to worship the calf until Moses came back [20:91]. Does Aaron share in their guilt? No [20:85-90], yes [20:92, 7:151].
Was Jonah cast on the desert shore or was he not? "Then We cast him on a desert shore while he was sick" [37:145] "Had not Grace from his Lord reached him, he would indeed have been cast off on the naked shore while he was reprobate." [68:49]
Moses and the Injil? Jesus is born more than 1,000 years after Moses, but in 7:157 Allah speaks to Moses about what is written in the Injil [the book given to Jesus].
Can slander of chaste women be forgiven? Yes [24:5], No [24:23].
How do we receive the record on Judgment Day? On Judgement day the lost people are given the Record (of their bad deeds): Behind their back [84:10], or in their left hand [69:25].
Can angels disobey? No angel is arrogant, they all obey Allah [16:49-50], but: "And behold, we said to the ANGELS: 'Bow down to Adam'. And THEY bowed down, EXCEPT Iblis. He refused and was haughty." [2:34].
Three contradictions in 2:97 and 16:101-103 Who brings the revelation from Allah to Muhammad? The ANGEL Gabriel [2:97], or the Holy Spirit [16:102]? The new revelation confirms the old [2:97] or substitutes it [16:101]? The Qur'an is PURE Arabic [16:103] but there are numerous foreign, non-Arabic words in it.
The infinite loop problem Sura 26:192,195,196: "It (the Qur'an) is indeed a revelation from the Lord of the Worlds, ... in clear Arabic speech and indeed IT (the Qur'an) is in the writings of the earlier (prophets)." Now, the 'earlier writings' are the Torah and the Injil for example, written in Hebrew and Greek. HOW can an ARABIC Qur'an be contained in books of other languages? Furthermore, it would have to contain this very passage of the Qur'an since the Qur'an is properly contained in them. Hence these earlier writings have to be contained in yet other earlier writings and we are in an infinite loop, which is absurd.
Is the Torah like the Qur'an, or is it not? The Muslim claim of the corruption of the Bible leads to a contradiction between S. 2:24 and 17:88 on the one hand, and 28:49 and 46:10 on the other.
"An old woman" and God's character About the story of Lot: "So we delivered him and his family, - all exept an old woman who lingered behind." [Sura 26:170-171] And again: "But we saved him and his family, exept his wife: she was of those who lagged behind. [Sura 7:83]. Either this is a contradiction or if indeed Lot's wife is derogatorily called "an old woman" then this does not show much respect for her as a wife of a prophet.
More problems with the story of Lot "And his people gave NO answer but this: They said, "Drive them out of your city: these are indeed men who want to be clean and pure!" [Sura 7:82 & 27:56]. Yet: "But his people gave NO answer but this: They said: "Bring us the Wrath of Allah if thou tellest the truth." [Sura 29:29]. Obviously these answers are different.
The "pleasure" of Allah? Is God's action of punishment or mercy and guidance or misguidance arbitrary?
Did Abraham smash the idols? The accounts of Abraham, Suras 19:41-49, 6:74-83 differ quite a bit from Sura 21:51-59. While in Sura 21 Abraham confronts his people strongly, and even destroys the idols, in Sura 19 Abraham shuts up after his father threatens him to stone him for speaking out against the idols. And he seems not only to become silent, but even to leave the area ("turning away from them all").
What about Noah's son? According to Sura 21:76, Noah and his family is saved from the flood, and Sura 37:77 confirms that his seed survived. But Sura 11:42-43 reports that Noah's son drowns.
Was Noah driven out? "Before them *the people of Noah* rejected (their messenger): They rejected Our servant and said, 'Here is One possessed!' And he was driven out." [Sura 54:9] Now, if he is driven out [expelled from their country] how come they can scoff at him while he is building the ark since we read "Forthwith he (starts) constructing the Ark: Every time that the Chiefs of *his people* passed by him, they threw ridicule on him." [Sura 11:38] He cannot be both: Driven out and near enough that they can regularly pass by.
Pharaoh's Magicians: Muslims or Rejectors of Faith? Did the Magicians of Pharaoh, Egyptians, become believers in the God of Moses [7:103-126; 20:56-73; S. 26:29-51] or did only Israelites believe in Moses [10:83]?
Pharaoh's repentance in the face of death? According to Sura 10:90-92, Pharaoh repented "in the sight of death" and was saved. But Sura 4:18 says that such a thing can't happen.
Abrogation? "The words of the Lord are perfect in truth and justice; there is NONE who can change His words." [Sura 6:115] Also see 6:34 and 10:64. But then Allah (Muhammad?) sees the need to exchange some of them for "better ones" [Sura 2:106, 16:101]. And it is not for ignorant people to question Allah because of such practices!
Guiding to truth? "Say: 'God - He guides to the truth; and which is worthier to be followed ...?" [Sura 10:35] But how much is left over of this worthiness when we also read: "Allah leads astray whom he pleases, and he guides whom He pleases, ..." [Sura 14:4]. And how do we know in which of Allah's categories of pleasure we fall? How sure can a Muslim be that he is one of those guided right and not one of those led astray?
What is the punishment for adultery? Flogging with a 100 stripes (men and women) [24:2], "confine them to houses until death do claim them (lifelong house arrest - for the women) [4:15]. For men: "If they repent and amend, leave them alone" [4:16]. 24:2 contradicts both the procedure for women and men in Sura 4. And why is the punishment for women and men equal in Sura 24 but different in Sura 4?
Who suffers the consequence of sins? The Qur'an declares that everyone will be held responsible only for his own sins [S. 17:13-15, 53:38-42]. Yet, the Qur'an accuses the Jews of Muhammad's day for the sins committed some 2000 years earlier by other Jews, e.g. worshipping the Golden Calf idol.
Will Christians enter Paradise or go to Hell? Sura 2:62 and 5:69 say "Yes", Sura 5:72 (just 3 verses later) and 3:85 say "No".
God alone or also men? Clear or incomprehensible? The Qur'an is "clear Arabic speech." [16:103] Yet "NONE knows its interpretation, save only Allah." [3:7]. Actually, "men of understanding do grasp it." [3:7]
Was Pharaoh Drowned or Saved when chasing Moses and the Israelites? Saved [10:92], drowned [28:40, 17:103, 43:55].
When Commanded Pharaoh the Killing of the Sons? When Moses was a Prophet and spoke God's truth to Pharaoh [40:23-25] or when he was still an infant [20:38-39]?
When/how are the fates determined? "The night of power is better than a thousand months. The angels and spirit descend therein, by the permission of their Lord, with all decrees." [97:3,4] "Lo! We revealed it on a blessed night." [44:3] To Muslims, the "Night of Power" is a blessed night on which fates are settled and on which everything relating to life, death, etc., which occurs throughout the year is decreed. It is said to be the night on which Allah's decrees for the year are brought down to the earthly plane. In other words, matters of creation are decreed a year at a time. Contradicting this, Sura 57:22 says, "No affliction befalls in the earth or in your selves, but it is in a Book before we create it." This means it is written in the Preserved Tablet, being totally fixed in Allah's knowledge before anyone was created. All of the above is contradicted by "And every man's fate We have fastened to his own neck." This says that man alone is responsible for what he does and what happens to him. [17:13]
Wine: Good or bad? Strong drink and ... are only an infamy of Satan's handiwork. [5:90, also 2:219]. Yet on the other hand in Paradise are rivers of wine [47:15, also 83:22,25]. How does Satan's handiwork get into Paradise?
Good News of Painful Torture? Obviously, announcing torment and suffering to anyone is bad news, not good news. However, the Qur'an announces the good news of painful torment [3:21, 4:138, 9:3, 9:34, 31:7, 45:8, and 84:24].
Will all Muslims go to Hell? According to Sura 19:71 every Muslim will go to Hell (for at least some time), while another passage states that those who die in Jihad will go to Paradise immediately.
Will Jesus burn in Hell? Jesus is raised to Allah, [Sura 4:158], near stationed with him [Sura 3:45], worshiped by millions of Christians, yet Sura 21:98 says, that all that are worshiped by men besides Allah will burn in Hell together with those who worship them.
Jinns and men created for worship or for Hell? Created only to serve God [Sura 51:56], many of them made for Hell [Sura 7:179].
Who is the father of Jesus? A more involved argument that is difficult to summarize in one sentence.
Begetting and Self-sufficiency A self-contradiction on account of confused terminology.
Could Allah have a son? Sura 39:4 affirms and Sura 6:101 denies this possibility.
Did Jesus Die already? Sura 3:144 states that all messengers died before Muhammad. But 4:158 claims that Jesus was raised to God (alive?).
One Creator or many? The Qur'an uses twice the phrase that Allah is "the best of creators" [23:14, 37:125]. What other creators are in mind? On the other hand, many verses make clear that Allah alone is "the creator of all things" [e.g. 39:62]. There is nothing left for others to be a creator of.
From among all nations or from Abraham's seed? Sura 29:27 states that all prophets came Abraham's seed. But 16:36 claims that Allah raised messengers from among every people.
Marrying the wives of adopted sons? It is important that Muslims can marry the divorced wives of adopted sons [Sura 33:37], yet it is forbidden to adopt sons [Sura 33:4-5].
Messengers were never sent to other than their own people? So it is claimed in Sura 14:4 and 30:47. However, the Bible and the Qur'an, and the Muslim traditions confirm that Jonah was sent to a different nation.
Messengers Amongst the Jinns and Angels? Allah sent only men as messengers [Suras 12:109, 21:7-8, 25:20-21] but there seemingly are messengers from Jinns and Angels [6:130; 11:69,77; 22:75; etc., see article for details].
Another eleven contradictions...
Now I do as I please and lie through my teeth. Someone might get hurt but it won't be me. I should probably feel cheap but I just feel free and a little bit empty. No it isn't so hard to get close to me. There will be no arguments. We will always agree. And I will try and be kind when I ask you to leave. We will both take it easy. But if you stay too long inside my memory, I will trap you in a song tied to a melody and I will keep you there so you can't bother me. |
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TarTar
* Dog in the Sand *
1965 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2004 : 06:22:18
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I hope nobody ever assembles a list of contradictions I've made in my life. That'd make the Lord of the Rings trilogy look like Appointment at Samara.
Let 'em riot. We're Sonic-fuckin'-Death Monkey. |
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Hatchetman
- FB Fan -
United Kingdom
234 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2004 : 06:29:06
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quote:
Originally posted by mefa
I greet everyone in this forum .
When I greet people, I usually just say hello!!
Welcome to the forum Mefa.
Ade
As the air conditioner hummed.... |
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2004 : 07:02:14
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"While I appreciate your quaint traditions and superstitions, I, on the other hand, am an evolved being who deals solely with the source of light which exists in all of us, in our own minds, no middlemen required."
- Bill Hicks
--
Maze rats dreamed of mazes, according to the latest studies. Maze rat scientists dreamed of rats. I was dreaming of cheese. |
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2004 : 11:41:04
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I've been saying this for years:
"I've accepted Frank as my personal savior."
 I still believe in the excellent joy of the Frank |
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Monsieur
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1688 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2004 : 12:16:36
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quote:
Originally posted by two reelers
* practically, why is it, that countries with islamic foundations (e.g. saudi-arabia, iran, turkish republic, paksistan) suppress people, ethical minorities and human rights more than "western" countries ?
* practically, why is it, that countries with islamic foundations suppress women much more than "western" countries ?
* practically, why is it, that countries with islamic foundations are governed by dictator-like regimes ?
* practically, why is it, that the regimes of countries with islamic foundations are ways more corrupt than "western" countries ?
i don't care much about the religion of individuals. if cat stevens thinks islam is fine, then it is surely okay for him and he is right, if it makes him happy. but i do care about the effects on society - and the above statements are a fact. the islam society never had a rational counter-revolution, like europe had. imo, this is a big advantage of the "western/capitalist" system. of course, there are disadvantages too, but i can chose my environment. i suppose most people in iran & suadi-arabia would like to get rid of their fundamental dictators, but they can't chose. and this is too because the dictatorical leadership is intrinsically tied with the (non-)development of islam.
i don't think there is a clash between christians & muslims, but there is a clash between the religious-influenced (like the muslims) and the rational western system.
I joined the cult of Souled American / 'cause they are a damn' fine band
Hi,
I have a couple of questions for you :
1)You divide the world in two categories : the rational world and the religion-influenced world ("like the muslims"). Where is George Bush?
2) Is dictatorship and absence of human rights only the fruit of islam? I am thinking about one of your fellow countryymen who was a very rational, western guy.
3) Do you think that the "rationality" of the "western/capitalist" (capitalism is, as we all know, a synonym for rationality) system is solely a product of the Aufklärung (I believe this is what you call "rational counter-revolution")? Were there not any other examples of rationality before?
4) Do you think that it requires a spam message like Mefa's (which I haven't read) to see who are the people with a lack of critical thinking?
I will show you fear in a handful of dust |
Edited by - Monsieur on 12/06/2004 12:17:17 |
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2004 : 12:30:43
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Monsieur and Apl for forum king and queen!
I hope that Mr. Apl doesn't misunderstand my sentiment: those two brilliant kids are our two most erudite members.
I still believe in the excellent joy of the Frank |
Edited by - kathryn on 12/06/2004 12:32:03 |
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2004 : 12:41:25
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[/quote]
2) Is dictatorship and absence of human rights only the fruit of islam?
[/quote]
How is that the fruit of islam?
__________
Godfather of nothing, ancesters of none.
Black glasses and feedback took my sense of fun.
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Monsieur
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1688 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2004 : 13:00:32
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quote:
Originally posted by kathryn
Monsieur and Apl for forum king and queen!
I hope that Mr. Apl doesn't misunderstand my sentiment: those two brilliant kids are our two most erudite members.
I still believe in the excellent joy of the Frank
Most of all, I hope Mr Spudboy won't misunderstand your statement, otherwise he will cross the ocean just to kick my ass.
After partially reading Mefa's message and in order to remain neutral, let me say that this message is one of the funniest things I've read on this board.
Come on guys, "As a robotics arm differs from a human arm, so the "hand" of Allah is nothing like a human hand"!!!
This is a work of a comical genius.
I will show you fear in a handful of dust |
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n/a
deleted
4894 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2004 : 13:44:15
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I understand that misunderstandings about islam and current media coverage presses towards anti islamic leanings, I think it's good to understand the lifestyle and religious choices of others, I think I understand that this guy might want to show other people what Islam is all about to prevent confusion and terrorism associated race hate. What I do not understand is an unsolicited unexplained summary that appears at the best a bit innacurate. If Mefa has his reasons for posting this could he plese explain them? If it's conversion and educating he wants to achieve I think he picked the wrong forum, there isn't any real prejudace here for the majority and I don't think any of us take kindly to preaching.
Mel, there's more in the bible all religious texts have innacuracies and contradiction, it's a symptom of dogma it seems. I haven't found any of them satisfactory, hence the non believer status.
Frank Black ate my hamster |
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BLT
> Teenager of the Year <
South Sandwich Islands
4204 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2004 : 15:05:22
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quote:
Originally posted by mefa
VERY IMPORTANT FOR YOU :
Troll. |
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Daisy Girl
~ Abstract Brain ~
Belize
5305 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2004 : 19:29:57
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Mefa, sorry I can't bring my self to read it like Rita due to its length.
Can I ask you what you were trying to get across?
I am very tolarant to all religions...
Are you a Frank Black or Pixies fan?
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jediroller
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1718 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2004 : 01:10:56
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As funny as Mefa's post might be (and I haven't read it, I have big issues with his definition of the word "briefly"), it can't be as funny/weird as the spam message I got today in my work inbox:
"From: Hyundai U. Titillation <kebabs@patoutscajuncabin.com>
Subject: Good morning.
Evening, landlord :)
Our faults irritate us most when we see them in others.
No man understands a deep book until he has seen and lived at least part of its contents.
The purpose of human life is to serve and show compassion and the will to help others.
It is not our exalted feelings, it is our sentiments that build the necessary home.
Fan the sinking flame of hilarity with the wing of friendship and pass the rosy wine.
Do every act of your life as if it were your last.
Speedy exception is the mother of good fortune. Education is hanging around until you've caught on.An old man loved is winter with flowers.
She always says, my lord, that facts are like cows. If you look them in the face hard enough they generally run away.
Health consists with temperance alone.
Nobody is forgotten when it is convenient to remember him.Never wrestle with a strong man nor bring a rich man to court.
Woman, the more careful she is about her face, the more careless about her house.A strong passion for any object will ensure success, for the desire of the end will point out the means. To make one good action succeed another, is the perfection of goodness.
Let the others have the charisma. I've got the class.Life is the continuous adjustment of internal relations to external relations.
Joy is not in things, it is in us.
Resolve and thou art free.
Friendship is like vitamins, we supplement each other's minimum daily requirements
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
Don't be afraid to take a big step if one is indicated. You can't cross a chasm in two small jumps.
A specialist is someone who does everything else worse. A good scare is worth more than good advice.
Zayt gesunt "
Now can anyone tell me what the fuck this is about?
My new, shorter sig. |
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two reelers
* Dog in the Sand *
Austria
1036 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2004 : 01:34:41
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Originally posted by Monsieur[/i]
Hi,
I have a couple of questions for you :
1)You divide the world in two categories : the rational world and the religion-influenced world ("like the muslims"). Where is George Bush?
>>
imo, george bush is a big nothing. he is a puppet, who doesn't care about anything, and who is used by "bigger forces" (arms industries, neo-conservative intellectuals, right-wing catholics). as a matter of fact, a big part of america is undergoing a religious change, but it is inside a democratic regime and people can chose. but this is a foreigner's opinion, and surely americanos can give a better insight.
2) Is dictatorship and absence of human rights only the fruit of islam? I am thinking about one of your fellow countryymen who was a very rational, western guy.
>> well, we are talking of nowadays, and not what happened 50 years or 200 years ago. and hitler was not rational, but utterly insane. the fact that we had hitler, get rid of him (by the help of the americanos) and survived it, is also a part of our "rational counter-revolution" (yes, i meant Aufklärung, but is there an english word for it ?)
dictatorship is not the fruit of the religion of islam, but can be a consequence in societies which believes in suppression & strong hierarchies, e.g. which had no Aufklärung. i just see that nowadays most dicatorships occur in islamic societies. russia with its half-democratic / half-dicator-like regime also had no Aufklärung, but the russian people where suppressed over hundreds of years by different systems, so many of them believe in it.
3) Do you think that the "rationality" of the "western/capitalist" (capitalism is, as we all know, a synonym for rationality) system is solely a product of the Aufklärung (I believe this is what you call "rational counter-revolution")? Were there not any other examples of rationality before?
>> if we are speaking of the majority of the people, than yes. of course, over the whole history of mankind there were always rational views, but mostly strictly limited to a few (ancient egyptians, romans, greeks; turkish & iraq (islamic/arabic!) we know that a lot of scientific knowledge emerged under the half-moon) in the medivial age, russian philosphers or scientists during communism,...)
4) Do you think that it requires a spam message like Mefa's (which I haven't read) to see who are the people with a lack of critical thinking?
>> ??? what do you mean ? i was just expressing my opnion. i don't think i see anything / anybody...
I joined the cult of Souled American / 'cause they are a damn' fine band |
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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Netherlands
6214 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2004 : 01:55:58
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quote:
Originally posted by two reelers
Originally posted by Monsieur
2) Is dictatorship and absence of human rights only the fruit of islam? I am thinking about one of your fellow countryymen who was a very rational, western guy.
>> well, we are talking of nowadays, and not what happened 50 years or 200 years ago. and hitler was not rational, but utterly insane. the fact that we had hitler, get rid of him (by the help of the americanos) and survived it, is also a part of our "rational counter-revolution" (yes, i meant Aufklärung, but is there an english word for it ?)
dictatorship is not the fruit of the religion of islam, but can be a consequence in societies which believes in suppression & strong hierarchies, e.g. which had no Aufklärung. i just see that nowadays most dicatorships occur in islamic societies. russia with its half-democratic / half-dicator-like regime also had no Aufklärung, but the russian people where suppressed over hundreds of years by different systems, so many of them believe in it.
I joined the cult of Souled American / 'cause they are a damn' fine band [/i]
I think that Hitler was rational
but your point about that we're not living 50 years or 200 years ago
(as a historian I find alway think of that as a non-argument)
so were not supposed to be talking about hitler?
well what about another rational country fellow man
what about jorg haider?
and it's not fair to attack austria
there are lots of hate spreading people in whole the western world
 "I joined the cult of Jon Tiven/Bye!" |
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GypsyDeath
Zapped Profile
3575 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2004 : 03:11:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Tre
Mel, there's more in the bible all religious texts have innacuracies and contradiction, it's a symptom of dogma it seems. I haven't found any of them satisfactory, hence the non believer status.
Frank Black ate my hamster
oh absoloutely, theres also a whole website dedicated to the contradictions of the bible, but the subject appears to be muslim...
Every belief has flaws, other wise it wouldnt be a belief, it would be fact.
I just found some of those contradictions quite amusing. like the maths one...reading that in full is hilarious.
Now I do as I please and lie through my teeth. Someone might get hurt but it won't be me. I should probably feel cheap but I just feel free and a little bit empty. No it isn't so hard to get close to me. There will be no arguments. We will always agree. And I will try and be kind when I ask you to leave. We will both take it easy. But if you stay too long inside my memory, I will trap you in a song tied to a melody and I will keep you there so you can't bother me. |
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n/a
deleted
4109 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2004 : 03:22:45
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Mefa, have you ever tryed to listen to the Catholics? Maybe if you do that you´ll understand our religion!
i've never done good things
i've never done bad things
i never did anything out of the blue
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whoreatthedoor
> Teenager of the Year <
Spain
2873 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2004 : 03:27:55
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That sounds scary, rita.
Caminar sobre las hojas del otoño es romántico y resbaladizo |
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n/a
deleted
4894 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2004 : 05:21:19
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they don't call it the cult of ray for nothing you know sweet whore
Frank Black ate my hamster |
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two reelers
* Dog in the Sand *
Austria
1036 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2004 : 05:25:57
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Originally posted by billgoodman
I think that Hitler was rational
>> killing millions of people, dreaming of a blue-eyed and blond super-race - well, that's not my definition of rationality...
but your point about that we're not living 50 years or 200 years ago
(as a historian I find alway think of that as a non-argument)
so were not supposed to be talking about hitler?
>> when it comes to discussing the **current** islamic/religious movements or issues in the context of rationalism, i can't get much connection to the second WW...but anyways, we are talking about him ! right here, right now.
well what about another rational country fellow man
what about jorg haider?
>> jörg haider is an intelligent, insane, manic-depressive & evil person, and his star is sinking. by the "help" of the "old" parties, he attracted ~25 % of the population 5 years ago, and since his party joined the gouvernment, this rate sank to 5 - 10 %, measured in election results. i think this phenomen of right-wing populism occurs in every democratic society, and again, i can't get much connection to dictatoric & medivial regimes like N-Korea, Iran, Saudi-Arabia,...
there are lots of hate spreading people in whole the western world
>> unfortunately, that's true...
I joined the cult of Souled American / 'cause they are a damn' fine band |
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whoreatthedoor
> Teenager of the Year <
Spain
2873 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2004 : 05:31:22
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Do you want to hear my Hare Krishna vinyl?
I've got a fake flashback of Malcolm Mcdowell inviting some chicks to hear his records. You know my intentions are pure and clean.
Caminar sobre las hojas del otoño es romántico y resbaladizo |
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n/a
deleted
4109 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2004 : 05:34:45
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That is definitly Scary, Xavier!
i've never done good things
i've never done bad things
i never did anything out of the blue
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n/a
deleted
4894 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2004 : 05:38:53
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I'll listen to your vinyls if you'll buy my Bhagavad-Gita and some incense
Frank Black ate my hamster |
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Important For Everyone
