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Adnan_le_Terrible
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1973 Posts |
 Posted - 02/09/2004 : 14:48:22
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This is a thread about a band from East Berlin called "Rammstein". First of all, let me say that they really cannot be accused of being neo-nazis, nothing in their lyrics is related to nazism.
Here is a picture (in a pure German expressionist style) of these talented teutonic melodists :
A couple of years ago, I really fell in love with the band, though I NEVER listen to metal or gothic music. Their music was really mighty, reminded me of Wagner (who happens to be my favorite composer), with these beatiful epic lieder like "Klavier" or "Seemann" (I really hated "Du hast", though).
Providing a cover on the Depeche Mode tribute album of their song "Stripped", Rammstein created something of a stir when the video was released using a 3.5 minute edit of Riefenstahl's Olympia, a hommage to the images found in her film on the Berlin Olympics (Reifenstahl released some of the official nazi films). Here are some images of the incriminated video :
Don't misunderstand me, I am not supporting nazism, especially because my grand-father got killed by the nazis during the WW2. But I really like Wagner, Riefenstahl, Rammstein, Nietzsche... And I wonder if it can be possible to separate the great aesthetic behind nazism and the horrors intrinsic to it.
I need your opinion as I feel a little guilty about my artistic tastes.
I joined the three kitties club / And now I can participate to a secret forum with Charles. |
Edited by - Adnan_le_Terrible on 02/09/2004 14:52:41 |
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Adnan_le_Terrible
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1973 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2004 : 14:54:15
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By the way, if you want to discover more about Riefenstahl, there is an excellent web-site :
http://www.dasblauelicht.net
I joined the three kitties club / And now I can participate to a secret forum with Charles. |
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mun chien andalusia
= Quote Accumulator =
Italy
2139 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2004 : 15:24:29
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i don't know if Riefenstahl was a convinced nazi or not but she sure knew how to use a camera.her film on the berlin olympics (triumph of the will it was called if i'm not wrong)is simply a visual masterpiece.
rammstein are just some east germans that play not so original industrial\metal with a funny english accent.i enjoyed their cover of "stripped" in the depeche mode tribute.
as long as nazi aesthetics is concerned i must admit that the wermacht had some of the most beautiful army uniforms ever made.i'm fascinated by the mix of modern age\scientific design and archaic symbols (the swastica is an indian symbol)put together.the essence of terror.
i don't consider wagner or nietzsche as part of the nazi heritage.they just used them at will keeping only the things that matched their paranoia and megalomany.
said that nazis tried to recreate the classic greek\roman style(see all the doric style buildings)but they had a more monumental vision.dimension was more important than grace since every aspect of their "art" was meant to celebrate the splendor and power of the 3rd reich.
IMHO the fascination for the nazi aesthetics derives more from the knowledge of what was hidden behind it than from true artistic value.
 join the cult of errol\and you can have a beer\without having to quit smoking
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Adnan_le_Terrible
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1973 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2004 : 15:48:10
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"Triumph des Willen" is a propaganda film for NASPD. The name of her film on Berlin Olympic Games is "Olympia" (the reference to greek/roman heritage is pretty obvious). But her movies before the nazis were great (das Blaue Licht etc). Today, pretty much everything is influenced by her work, from Star Wars to the Superbowl. I think she was a real genius....but I also think she was a real nazi. I mean, she was Hitler's and Goebbels' friend. These guys did not only enjoy art...Today, people often say that Heidegger (who was a member of the NASDP until 45), Riefenstahl etc were not nazis just because their work is beautiful. I know it's difficult to accept if you love these artists/philosophers and disapprove the nazi regime (which you should, if you are a healthy person). But that's the way things are. In such a regime, it's easy to say you were only shooting films. Doing nothing is also doing something.
However, I tend to disagree with you when you say that the fascination for nazi aestetics comes from the knowledge of what is hidden behind. It was really original, within its mixture of greek-roman and pagan-german imagery. What is really dangerous is the fact that this aesthetic was probably one of the driving forces of nazism...
Let me see you make decisions/Vizout your tellivision |
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Adnan_le_Terrible
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1973 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2004 : 15:56:59
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BTW, Leni Riefenthal was judged more than 50 times for cooperation with nazis, and won each of these trials.
Let me see you make decisions/Vizout your tellivision |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2004 : 16:00:09
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Clearly Wagner was not a Nazi, living a century previously and all, but he certainly had some pretty poisonous anti-Semitic views.
However, I have to admit to him being probably my favourite composer as well (alongside Debussy - go figure!)
I'm not convinced that there's ever been a piece of music as beautiful as 'Tristan Und Isolde'
 "I joined the Cult Of Cheese/E-Damn!" |
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mun chien andalusia
= Quote Accumulator =
Italy
2139 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2004 : 05:44:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Adnan_le_Terrible
However, I tend to disagree with you when you say that the fascination for nazi aestetics comes from the knowledge of what is hidden behind. It was really original, within its mixture of greek-roman and pagan-german imagery. What is really dangerous is the fact that this aesthetic was probably one of the driving forces of nazism...
Let me see you make decisions/Vizout your tellivision
you see imagery isn't art but just design.art should be timeless and i don't recall the name of any nazi artist or a nazi art masterpiece.the nazi "art" is long forgotten mainly because it was an insignificant celebration of a regime.it may look interesting or even fascinating for historical reasons but that's about it.
join the cult of errol\and you can have a beer\without having to quit smoking
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Adnan_le_Terrible
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1973 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2004 : 15:34:32
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Of course, agree when you say that about NAZI art. But I think that Riefenstahl, for example, was a nazi official artist but some aspects of her work transcend nazism.
Let me see you make decisions/Vizout your tellivision |
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mun chien andalusia
= Quote Accumulator =
Italy
2139 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2004 : 15:45:27
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as i said i agree on Riefenstahl but she is an exception and you were talking about nazi immagery.anyway it's sad to think that a wannabe empire had so little to offer in terms of art.i've seen some pictures of nazi paintings(including hitler's).it's just realistic kitch stuff.
join the cult of errol\and you can have a beer\without having to quit smoking
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Adnan_le_Terrible
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1973 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2004 : 17:56:28
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Yeah, like these wonderful blonde families having lunch outside at the countryside...I don't really call that art.
I didn't know it was possible to see hitler's paintings, though. Here is one, i found it through google :
Pump the Jam |
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realmeanmotorscutor
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1764 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2004 : 18:54:00
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I was supposed to see Rammstein along with System of a Down and (shudder) Slipknot (free tickets and nothing to do) and they weren't allowed to go on because of their pyrotechnics and on-stage sex acts being outlawed in MA. What a bad show it ended up being. I wanted to see them!!
 "I joined the Cult of Popeye / The CoF required my good eye" |
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Adnan_le_Terrible
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1973 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2004 : 02:43:10
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I saw Rammstein in Paris, two years ago, and I must say they're really impressive, especially because of the pyrotechnics. Otherwise, musically speaking, it was really an average performance of a very simple and uninventive metal.
Pump the Jam |
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GypsyDeath
Zapped Profile
3575 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2004 : 03:43:07
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cool pics , scary band
Boys go to Jupiter,Become more stupider,
Girls go to Mars, Become rock stars |
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mun chien andalusia
= Quote Accumulator =
Italy
2139 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2004 : 05:46:01
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quote:
Originally posted by realmeanmotorscutor
I was supposed to see Rammstein along with System of a Down and (shudder) Slipknot (free tickets and nothing to do) and they weren't allowed to go on because of their pyrotechnics and on-stage sex acts being outlawed in MA. What a bad show it ended up being. I wanted to see them!!
"I joined the Cult of Popeye / The CoF required my good eye"
pyrotechnics and on stage sex acts outlawed?that's scary.what happened to the land of freedom?censorship gives me the creeps.
join the cult of errol\and you can have a beer\without having to quit smoking
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realmeanmotorscutor
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1764 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2004 : 09:44:37
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yeah man, I don't know. And in MA too!
"I joined the Cult of Popeye / The CoF required my good eye" |
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Adnan_le_Terrible
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1973 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2004 : 07:10:12
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They calle THAT on stage sex?
In Amsterdam's red light district, during a live show, I saw real on stage sex, but Rammstein's show is neither dangerous nor obscene...
Pump the Jam |
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Carl
- A 'Fifth' Catholic -
Ireland
11546 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2004 : 09:05:21
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| Amsterdam is like sex-city....oh yeah, don't Rammstein have some kinda dodgy neo-nazi songs or something? Type O Negative had some racist stuff like that, I think. |
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mun chien andalusia
= Quote Accumulator =
Italy
2139 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2004 : 09:34:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Carl
Amsterdam is like sex-city....oh yeah, don't Rammstein have some kinda dodgy neo-nazi songs or something? Type O Negative had some racist stuff like that, I think.
i don't know.they sing mostly in german.
join the cult of errol\and you can have a beer\without having to quit smoking
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Adnan_le_Terrible
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1973 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2004 : 10:26:56
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No, there are no racist/nazi Rammstein lyrics...people say it sounds nazi just because it is in German.
Pump the Jam |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2004 : 10:58:47
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We saw Rammstein play at the Metro in Chicago years ago - they opened for Front 242. The entire show was pretty boring. I believe the pyrotechnics were racheted back, ironically, because of Chicago's fascist fire marshalls, but the music just bores the crap out of me. There were some gratuitous funny giant-phallus-spewing-into-the-audience theatrics, but overall it was only predictable schtick (pun intended). 242, the band we came to see out of old-band-still-touring-car-wreck-curiosity were not what they once were.
As far as german bands go, for me none can ever compare to Einsterzende Neubauten. I think the show we got to see in Chicago was the best concert (overall) I've ever been to. I looooove that band.
"Wir müssen wissen. Wir werden wissen."/"Our house has seven doors, all are green...except one, which is yellow." |
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Carl
- A 'Fifth' Catholic -
Ireland
11546 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2004 : 11:22:48
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| Wonderbar! Ze kraften-werken are ze superior rock groupen! |
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Adnan_le_Terrible
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1973 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2004 : 14:49:33
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I like Einsturzende Neubauten pretty much, but some other German bands are really good. My favorites :
- Mouse on Mars
- the Notwist
- Console
Pump the Jam |
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mun chien andalusia
= Quote Accumulator =
Italy
2139 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2004 : 16:02:53
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i love the scorpions.
join the cult of errol\and you can have a beer\without having to quit smoking
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