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TheCroutonFuton
- Mr. Setlists -
USA
1728 Posts |
 Posted - 02/05/2004 : 10:59:54
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Okay..here's a problem that I always have. I have no trouble with coming up with decent lyrics at all. I've got shitloads of notebooks full of them. The thing that I can't do is write music that sounds unique and original for them. It all boils down to the Beatles and Nirvana.
I'll play a great sounding chord progression, note it down, and then the next day I'll be listening to the White Album and be like "Fuck! That's my fucking chord progression! Damn you beatles!"
I'll try finding a nice heavy riff for my rock stuff...and then I'll be like "Wait...that's the riff for (Insert Nirvana Song Here)...isn't it?! GOD DAMN YOU KURT COBAIN!"
For some reason it's always those two bands that I end up stealing from without even realizing it...so I just scrap the songs. I was playing a song I wrote to one of my friends a while ago and I guess it's almost exactly like Tired of Sex by Weezer. That really pissed me off because I had the whole thing done. Grr...
Do you have these problems too?
Talk about your songwriting experiences and stuff...
 "Join the Cult of Gunn / And Then You'll Be Destined to be a Rock and Roll Star of Epical Proportions!" |
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mcmikey
= Cult of Ray =
799 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2004 : 11:02:48
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the best starting point to try to get away from that is to try to FORGET everything you know about scales and theory when coming up with chord progressions. Or try to make a special effort to place WRONG chords in. those are good ways to avoid super-common progressions (1-4-5 or 1-5-6-4 for example).
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let me apologize in advance if this post is anything Goddess Theory could find offensive or misinterpret. Let there be peace on Earth, and let it begin with me |
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TheCroutonFuton
- Mr. Setlists -
USA
1728 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2004 : 11:04:32
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Yeah, I try that. I'll add minor chords where there shouldn't be a minor chord and then some random power-chords to add some variety...but it just doesn't turn out for me for some reason. No clue.
"Join the Cult of Gunn / And Then You'll Be Destined to be a Rock and Roll Star of Epical Proportions!" |
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mcmikey
= Cult of Ray =
799 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2004 : 11:08:23
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I'm a huge fan of suspensions (2nds, 4ths, sometimes even 6ths) to give chords slightly different sounds too. Also try experimenting with odd time signatures (7/8's a good easy one) or adding or subtracting bars to the length of progressions.
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let me apologize in advance if this post is anything Goddess Theory could find offensive or misinterpret. Let there be peace on Earth, and let it begin with me |
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TheCroutonFuton
- Mr. Setlists -
USA
1728 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2004 : 11:12:11
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Yeah, I try to take advantage of fermatas, pizzicatto picking, and the use of compressed rests...It shakes it up a little bit but it's not unique enough for me...I don't know, I probably expect too much out of myself, hahaha
"Join the Cult of Gunn / And Then You'll Be Destined to be a Rock and Roll Star of Epical Proportions!" |
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mcmikey
= Cult of Ray =
799 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2004 : 11:14:54
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how long have you been writing songs?
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let me apologize in advance if this post is anything Goddess Theory could find offensive or misinterpret. Let there be peace on Earth, and let it begin with me |
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interloper
= Cult of Ray =
440 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2004 : 11:15:27
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I usually start with a drum loop of some kind, then I like to riff out so to speak on top of it. Eventually something fun will come out of it. I use Acid looping an awful lot to add little patches of things on demos because of the way it lines all of the rhythms of the different samples up correctly. It makes it painfully easy and it's great for demoing songs. As far as words go, I hate writing lyrics most of the time. A lot of times, I'll playback what I've got, and hunt and peck on a keyboard until the melody falls into place, and no matter how good you are, eventually you'll find a melody. The other way around is good as well, melody first over a beat of some kind, and then hunt until you find supporting chords that work with it. I can think of quite a few Frank tunes that I bet anything started with these very odd little chord progressions. On their own, they don't sound all that cohesive, but when a foreground melody line of some sort is applied and fit in there just right, it all kind of ties itself together. For melody, my advice is to not be afraid of beginning with chord progressions that don't sound very "right", but let it happen, then squeeze in the melody on top of it, and upon minimal tweaking of the individual notes, the melody will eventually tie it all in. Another suggestion is to try coming up with melody that exists with no real chord movement under it...like a simple pedal tone (think "Tommorrow Never Knows"...there's not a single chord change in the song)..that's a good way to clear your head out a bit. I like the stuff that starts out odd, but the 1-4-5 changes and variations thereof seems to be pretty endless. There are countless songs with those same three intervals that all have great hooks on top of them. As far as accidentally sounding like other songs, just don't. Poke around with the way you put your stuff together until you find something that knocks it off balance a bit, so to speak.
Hand held shower nozzles are the demon enemy of the patriarch and should be destroyed. |
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TheCroutonFuton
- Mr. Setlists -
USA
1728 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2004 : 11:16:03
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About half of a year now. I was really into poetry before that, so that's where I usually get my lyrics. Yourself?
"Join the Cult of Gunn / And Then You'll Be Destined to be a Rock and Roll Star of Epical Proportions!" |
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interloper
= Cult of Ray =
440 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2004 : 11:18:03
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Mikey's suggestion of ditching any theory knowledge is great as well. A good way to blast this out is to detune your guitar (if that's what you're writing on) into some sort of odd tuning. It's great because you can no longer reach for that familiar G chord or E chord. You don't know where anything is so you can only rely on what sounds good. Keyboard does this for me, because I know nothing about it.
Hand held shower nozzles are the demon enemy of the patriarch and should be destroyed. |
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mcmikey
= Cult of Ray =
799 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2004 : 11:18:04
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on and off since I ws about 16, which would be almost 9 years now. WHat kind of genre do you usually write in?
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let me apologize in advance if this post is anything Goddess Theory could find offensive or misinterpret. Let there be peace on Earth, and let it begin with me |
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TheCroutonFuton
- Mr. Setlists -
USA
1728 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2004 : 11:21:47
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I don't have a keyboard. I used to know how to play piano a long time ago but lost that over age. I just have my guitar and my voice to work with...with the ocassional violin piece mixed in.
I try not to limit myself to genres. I've written "grunge" stuff, I guess you'd call it..some folksy stuff...blues...rock..jeeze, just about everything that includes a guitar.
"Join the Cult of Gunn / And Then You'll Be Destined to be a Rock and Roll Star of Epical Proportions!" |
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GoddessTheory
= Cult of Ray =
USA
675 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2004 : 11:26:44
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| Well, have you ever tried to make movies instead? |
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TheCroutonFuton
- Mr. Setlists -
USA
1728 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2004 : 11:27:31
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Yeah...I'm into photography, too. But my real passion is music...so...I'm gonna stick with it.
"Join the Cult of Gunn / And Then You'll Be Destined to be a Rock and Roll Star of Epical Proportions!" |
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mcmikey
= Cult of Ray =
799 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2004 : 11:28:23
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with just a guitar and his voice to work with...with the occasional violin piece mixed in? that would be impossible, Goddess!!!
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let me apologize in advance if this post is anything Goddess Theory could find offensive or misinterpret. Let there be peace on Earth, and let it begin with me |
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mcmikey
= Cult of Ray =
799 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2004 : 12:11:54
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another bit of advice is to listen to as many different styles of music possible, even if your'e only going to write songs in a very limited style (say 3-chord punk for example). that way you'll absorb lots of different influences and pick up lots of different little tricks you can apply
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let me apologize in advance if this post is anything Goddess Theory could find offensive or misinterpret. Let there be peace on Earth, and let it begin with me |
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cvanepps
= Cult of Ray =
USA
442 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2004 : 12:16:28
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I've always found that writing music is WAY easier than writing lyrics or a melody to match. So that's generally where I start: chord progression. Then as I play the chords over and over, I start humming along...that humming (with some tweaks) slowly turns into the melody. Then I write words that match the cadence of the new melody. That's Daddy-V's Music-Then-Words method.
The Words-Then-Music method takes much longer and I generally like to collaborate on authoring the music.
-= It's not easy to kidnap a fat man =-
http://christophervanepps.iuma.com |
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mcmikey
= Cult of Ray =
799 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2004 : 12:18:55
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that's more or less how I write songs as well, Daddy V. All these years I should have been giving you credit for the songwriting method and I didn't know!
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let me apologize in advance if this post is anything Goddess Theory could find offensive or misinterpret. Let there be peace on Earth, and let it begin with me |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2004 : 12:28:52
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I write all my songs with a capo on the 15th fret and reverse-tuning.
 Join the Cult of the Flying Pigxies - I'm A Believer! |
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mcmikey
= Cult of Ray =
799 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2004 : 12:29:43
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you must be able to sing very high
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let me apologize in advance if this post is anything Goddess Theory could find offensive or misinterpret. Let there be peace on Earth, and let it begin with me |
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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Netherlands
6214 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2004 : 14:54:31
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I think you should be quite thrilled and happy that your songs are the same as the beatles and nirvana
`
I just wrote a piece that had the same progression as that KC and Jojo song!!!! (All my life, I prayed for someone like you)
I´m a master in disguise, I´ll keep the progression but I´ll add a melody that takes all the attention of the listener.
 "I joined the Cult of Frank/Nobody wanted to join my Culf" |
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TheCroutonFuton
- Mr. Setlists -
USA
1728 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2004 : 14:58:27
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That's a good point...
Should I just do what you do and get them to focus all of their attention on the melody or a lead guitar part?
"Join the Cult of Gunn / And Then You'll Be Destined to be a Rock and Roll Star of Epical Proportions!" |
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El Barto
= Song DB Master =
USA
4020 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2004 : 15:09:53
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An acoustic guitar works wonders for songwriting...once I got an acoustic I was able to come up with a plethora of riffs that I absolutely loved. I have a ton of song fragments...some with music, some just vocals, some both. I need to compile them into actual songs. Start with whatever comes naturally. Don't force anything. Strum around on the guitar and you'll probably come up with something good. Go with whatever you come up with...the only way to come up with something is to go through a lot of shit and pick out the gems from the turds. You'll write a lot of really bad stuff. You can kinda 'feel' what's actually good and what's actually bad, hopefully. As you mature and write more, you'll sharpen your skills. I don't even dare look at stuff I wrote when I was 15 or 16...yuck.
Listen to a lot of good music. Lots of different stuff. Study it.
 "Join the Cult of Brit / And let your oral hygiene go out the window." |
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interloper
= Cult of Ray =
440 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2004 : 15:20:29
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Yeah, that's all good stuff, especially the 15th fret capo part. Another suggestion is to never overthink anything. Do something, put it down for a bit, and come back to it. Once your into a thing you've done, it's hard as hell to come back to it and be objective. Nothing will ruin your songs like spending too much time on them.
Hand held shower nozzles are the demon enemy of the patriarch and should be destroyed. |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2004 : 16:04:05
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The detuning thing is great, cos it means you have to approach the guitar in a different way. Not only doe it work for Sonic Youth et al, but look at Nick Drake and Elliot Smith.
Drakes tunings range from EBDF#BE to CFCFCF (my fave) to GGDGBE on Black Dog. So however much you change it, different ideas will spring up. Unless you're not Nick Drake...
 "I joined the Cult Of Cheese/E-Damn!" |
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SpudBoy
= Cult of Ray =
Equatorial Guinea
649 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2004 : 17:43:42
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I like DADGAD a lot, and some of the basic chord voicings are easy to learn and sound (IMHO) better than in standard.
I tend to go with the interloper method, with drums running of some sort and having Acid recording while playing, usually keys or electric guitar. I am also sitting next to a mike stand with a suprisingly good sony stereo mic (ECM-MS907) hooked to a minidisc recorded with sound activation. If I get an idea on an acoustic, I turn on the mic and the minidisc kicks in. Recording everything is a recent experiment that is upping my output. Don't wait til the song is written. You might do something and forget it 5 minutes later that sounds really cool when you go back to it.
Lyrics is the challenge. Whooo lordy. But hey as far as I can tell just write and write and write and write. Eventually it gets better. I have also joined online forums about songwriting where people post their work for critique. I am suprised at the positive attitude of a lot of these groups, since most of what is posted is crap. But then, as I have said in the past I am an opinionated prick. And I haven't posted *my* crap yet. Interesting to see how people attack the problem though...
 I looked for a cult to join, then decided to just play "Sink". Hey! I sank WallaWalla Washington! |
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GypsyDeath
Zapped Profile
3575 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2004 : 18:03:08
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I used to watch people trying to write songs and they always ended up having the same problems you are expereincing. When i started playing guitar, i decided i was not going to learn other peoples songs - there for not being used to their styles. Thats whats it all about in the end - style.
I mean, learning lots of different styles is great and all, but it comesin to the wrting way too much. sometimes. IM speaking for myself here.
What i do is make up chords. Thre for, no ones riff can be the same. Just muck about and see what different sounds you can make. It just come i guess.
Trying hard to write - whether it be songs, poems, storys, lyrics or an essay never works. creativity doesnt work on demand.
Boys go to Jupiter,Become more stupider,
Girls go to Mars, Become rock stars |
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El Barto
= Song DB Master =
USA
4020 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2004 : 18:12:59
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If we're talkin favorite tunings, I used to have a lot of fun with EGDGBB...I think that was the tuning. I like the double B's, with one SLIGHTLY out of tune with the other...gave a beautiful effect.
"Join the Cult of Brit / And let your oral hygiene go out the window." |
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TheCroutonFuton
- Mr. Setlists -
USA
1728 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2004 : 18:28:17
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I've only been playing guitar for about 2 years (No lessons, mind you)...I know all of my chords and tunings, though. I usually strum around on standard and sometimes tuned down a half step. Everyone and their grandma has used Drop-D. It's not a problem of not being able to find neat sounding chord progressions or riffs. It's that when I do it always reminds me of another that has already been done.
Gypsy Death...you don't play songs written by other people? How exactly does that work? Style is part of it, but not the largest part. Style is what you polish it up with in the end, not what you're thinking about the whole time. I'm very glad that I've learned many different styles. I get to utilize them and take advantage of them. Umm...and yes...the riffs can be the same. You need to practice the "riff" to memorize it. Write it down, sure, but when you just find one you want to mess around and tweak with it. I love using feedback for sustain and that great bite. You may say "Oh, well that's Jimi Hendrix and Joey! Don't rip off their styles!" No one has their very own style. Absolutely no one. If you only play one way your songs are going to get very boring very fast. The only people who could really claim to coming up with their own technique and style are the inventors of the acoustic and electric guitar. Because they were the ones who messed around with it and heard the sound for the very first time anywhere. Don't go around looking for "your style"...it just doesn't work that way. Sorry, I just got pretty upset. I know how to write songs and I know how to come up with tunes.
"Join the Cult of Gunn / And Then You'll Be Destined to be a Rock and Roll Star of Epical Proportions!" |
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TheCroutonFuton
- Mr. Setlists -
USA
1728 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2004 : 18:39:05
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The progression I'm working with right now is:
Dm/A -> G -> C -> A -> F -> Bb -> G -> Bb
It sounds pretty neat with bar chords. But with my luck I'll listen to a song and hear it.
"Join the Cult of Gunn / And Then You'll Be Destined to be a Rock and Roll Star of Epical Proportions!" |
Edited by - TheCroutonFuton on 02/05/2004 18:39:44 |
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IceCream
= Quote Accumulator =
USA
1850 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2004 : 21:11:01
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Odd tunings are a great suggestion; I've been able to come up with some cool stuff.
Anyway, here's something that's kind of controversial among all the opinions in my head (because great simple songs exist), but you could try creating super complicated and complex chord progressions; the intent of that is perhaps you'll make up something no one else was smart enough to think of. I mean, the opening chord progression of "His Kingly Cave"...wow.
Also, it's not just about progressions.
If you're REALLY REALLY struggling, just go into poetry.
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Tim, the only one who laughs |
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SpudBoy
= Cult of Ray =
Equatorial Guinea
649 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2004 : 21:18:12
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I used to be really really into oddball time signatures. Throw a weird chord progression into 9/4 time, do a bridge in 5/4, and then 13/5 for the chorus and back and see what happens. I also have fun overlaying time signatures, creating polyrhythms. Example is 3/4 over 4/4, so the lines sync every 4th measure of the 3/4 staff.
All about the experimentation.
I looked for a cult to join, then decided to just play "Sink". Hey! I sank WallaWalla Washington! |
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IceCream
= Quote Accumulator =
USA
1850 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2004 : 21:22:22
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Agreed, Spudboy. What'd i'd really like to do is calculate 1/26 of a whole note. Then I could create a song in 18/26 time.
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Tim, the only one who laughs |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2004 : 23:44:05
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I just can't wrap my brain around odd tunings for some reason..relearning chord formations seems scary to me. =)
I was half serious about using a capo tho - it's a quick and easy way to change your perspective.
Join the Cult of the Flying Pigxies - I'm A Believer! |
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Atheist4Catholics
= Cult of Ray =
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2004 : 07:00:10
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I've been writing for 13 years and personally, I wouldn't worry about what your songs sound like. People are going to constantly tell you that you sound like someone else even if you're the most original sounding songwriter ever. You talk about Nirvana as if they were original to start with, but how many bands did they sound like? I can think of one in particular....
The key to being a good songwriter is to just keep writing. Finish your songs, put them away for a while, and then play them again and decide weither you should keep them or not. Some ideas are born to be B-sides but that's okay. Not every song you write has to be "A Day in the Life" by the Beatles.
Another tool is to have a handheld recorder at the ready at all times. Sometimes I'll wake up with a nearly finished song in my head and if I don't get it down fast, I'll forget it. If you can capture all of your spontaneous ideas, then more interesting songs will come out of it.
I often find that I write songs 180 degrees opposite of whatever I'm listening to. It's in my nature to try and do something new, so I rebel. If I'm listening to Beefheart, I write top 40 pop, if I listen to The Beatles, I write fucked up songs. Just write what makes you happy and work on your songcraft and your own voice will come through eventually. In the future you'll probably throw out every song you wrote in the beginning (as I have) but that'll be because the songs you are currently writing are so much better.
Record your songs and experiment with the production / arrangement. You may find that that Weezer sounding song doesn't actually sound like Weezer after all. Record different versions of your songs as well, i.e. a country version and a metal version.
Throwing out theory can be good, but for me it's handy whenever I know what type of sound I want because then I know what chords will give me that sound. I've never been fond of odd tunings. I think they constrict your creativity rather than expand it. I'll sometimes detune one string in order to acheive a certain sound, but I never change the whole guitar. It's been my experience that people who use odd tunings write a lot of songs that all sound the same. I only use a capo if I want an open string sound in a different key. Most people use capos as a crutch because they don't know how to bar chord good enough.
Bottom line; write a lot, let the songs become what they want to become, be patient and keep honing your skills, don't be afraid to try anything.
 "Join the Cult of Frank / or The Clops gets it!" |
Edited by - Atheist4Catholics on 02/07/2004 07:44:52 |
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mcmikey
= Cult of Ray =
799 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2004 : 07:22:59
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...including same sex experimentation
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Où est les femmes caucasiennes? |
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Chris Knight
= Cult of Ray =
USA
899 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2004 : 02:22:07
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quote:
SpudBoy: "...and then 13/5 for the chorus..."
13/5, as in thirteen fifth-notes? That's great! I'm obsessed with fifths, sevenths, etc., as well as rhythmic disharmony (12th and 16th notes played simultaneously, for example) and tuplets within tuplets (take three 1/5 notes and divide the whole into five and you get five 3/25 notes). I'm also interested in a myriad of "tonal" experiments, including quarter tones with two guitars, chromatic clusters using a piano,.... well I could really go on forever.
quote:
Atheist4Catholics: "I've never been fond of odd tunings. I think they constrict your creativity rather than expand it."
Alternate tunings usually only work for me when I know what chord voicings I'm trying to achieve beforehand. Someday I'd like to write and record songs that aren't limited by a single tuning or even the number of strings on a guitar! I consider myself an analog fiend, yet it's the increased feasibility of concepts like that that makes the digital recording domain seem more worthwhile every day.
Join the Cult of the Flying Pigxies *snort* SCREEEEEECH! *flap flap flap* |
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