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glacial906
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1738 Posts |
 Posted - 11/13/2003 : 09:30:05
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So Roy S. Moore just got kicked out of Supreme Court Justice seat of Alabama for his displaying the 10 Commandments. What do you all think of this?
Damn, controversial title for this thread, huh?
If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe.
Carl Sagan
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Edited by - glacial906 on 11/20/2003 23:58:18 |
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realmeanmotorscutor
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1764 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2003 : 09:33:14
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yeah, I was hoping for more controversy - how I love to bash atheists
 "I joined the Cult of Popeye / The CoF required my good eye" |
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bedrock_barney
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
871 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2003 : 09:33:47
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| Can you enlighten me further? Always like a good debate on this subject. |
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glacial906
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1738 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2003 : 09:39:01
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Well, the Alabama Supreme Court Justice Roy Moore was dismissed after refusing to remove the 10 Commandments from the walls of the courtroom. There's not really much political debate, because every politician and judge - whether Christian or not - will cite the importance of obeying a court-ordered mandate. Period. But the controversy comes in with the general public. There's alot of Christians out there who think that Moore was wrongly dismissed, because America was founded on Christian principles, and blah blah blah...(the typical fundamentalist Christian argument, etc.) And then there's some who think that the importance of state over church was the issue here as well.
If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe.
Carl Sagan
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bedrock_barney
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
871 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2003 : 09:45:33
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| Well I guess the problem with the 10 commandments is that the vast majority of people will break at least a few of them on a regular basis (particularly nos. 3 & 4). Why did they have to be taken down? Hypocrisy? |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2003 : 09:46:45
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quote:
Originally posted by glacial906
So Roy S. Moore just got kicked out of Supreme Court Justice seat of Alabama for his displaying the 10 Commandments. What do you all think of this?
I think it's great (it's a bad thing when a judge ignores a court ruling), but he'll probably turn around and win an elected office. Maybe he can get a job in Ashcroft's Justice Department.
I grew up in the south where I had religion forced upon me. So, I think I know how important it is keep religion out of school and government. One day the Gideons (or someone like them) showed up at my 6th grade school to pass out New Testaments out in the street in front of the school. I didn't want to go get one but my teacher tried to convince me to go. I refused. That's a lot of pressure to put on a 11 year old. I also had to sit through school prayers. Should I pretend to pray or just sit there? |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2003 : 09:48:33
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quote:
Originally posted by glacial906
Well, the Alabama Supreme Court Justice Roy Moore was dismissed after refusing to remove the 10 Commandments from the walls of the courtroom.
It was a stone (granite) monument that he had constructed and placed in entryway of the courthouse. |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2003 : 09:50:36
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The problem with the monument being on government/public property is the First Amendment of the US Constitution:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
edit:sorry, cat on lap is making this difficult to type. the issue is one of promoting one religion over another, basically state-sponsorship of one over another. the problem is that this is smoke and mirrors - the judeo-christian bent is pervasive - on many public governmental monuments and our currency and our Pledge of Allegiance. Getting this guy kicked out is good in my opinion, but it's not winning anything tangible (in light of the church-state slippery slope debate) in the long-term.
 "I partied with the Cult of Frank / Bob ate all the dip" |
Edited by - apl4eris on 11/13/2003 09:54:48 |
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2003 : 09:54:36
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin
quote:
Originally posted by glacial906
So Roy S. Moore just got kicked out of Supreme Court Justice seat of Alabama for his displaying the 10 Commandments. What do you all think of this?
I grew up in the south where I had religion forced upon me. So, I think I know how important it is keep religion out of school and government. One day the Gideons (or someone like them) showed up at my 6th grade school to pass out New Testaments out in the street in front of the school. I didn't want to go get one but my teacher tried to convince me to go. I refused. That's a lot of pressure to put on a 11 year old. I also had to sit through school prayers. Should I pretend to pray or just sit there?
Gideons came to our school too in gr.6, I remember they wouldn't give you the book unless you promised to read it. |
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realmeanmotorscutor
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1764 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2003 : 09:54:50
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it's the seperation of church and state. he has te right to believe in the commandments but they have no place in a court of law.
"I joined the Cult of Popeye / The CoF required my good eye" |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2003 : 10:17:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Carolynanna
[Gideons came to our school too in gr.6, I remember they wouldn't give you the book unless you promised to read it.
This was in Canada? I didn't think any pushy people lived in Canada. |
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glacial906
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1738 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2003 : 10:34:20
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I am not an "atheist" but I really don't have much liking for most established denominations...(not to say that there's not any good ones out there, I just haven't found it yet). I think people get extreme both ways -- in the case of Moore displaying the monument (thanks Darwin for clarifying exactly how he did it...) it can be seen as his simply declaring his faith, not pushing it, or it can be viewed for the beginning of a far more dangerous trend, that of religion determining social events. On a very basic level to me it seems kind of silly for people to be "offended" by the monument; the basic tenants of Christianity work as good guidelines for secular life as well. (Who would argue that "Thou Shalt Not Kill" is a bad idea, Christian or Atheist?) But, I also can see on a broader scale the implications that it could have were Moore allowed to keep the monument, because it might pave the way for bigger and more freedom-inhibitive exhibitions of religion in the hands of politicians and government. Through about 1500 years of religion ruling the government we know that to be a bad idea.
If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe.
Carl Sagan
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remig
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1734 Posts |
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glacial906
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1738 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2003 : 10:45:54
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I don't think that Atheists should ever have the majority of political control any more than Christians should.
If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe.
Carl Sagan
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2003 : 10:51:39
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quote:
"I am not an "atheist" but I really don't have much liking for most established denominations...(not to say that there's not any good ones out there, I just haven't found it yet)"
That's fair enough. My church is not an 'established denomination', the point being to try and get away from a legalistic and heirarchical system of religion. There is a theological reason, i.e. Christ is the head of the church.
This is why, although you'd think a Christian would oppose the removing of the 10 Commandments, I'm really not that concerned. Although I do agree that the 10 Commandments make an ideal basis for a good and happy life.
 "I have joined the Cult Of Frank/And I have dearly paid"
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Hordak
- FB Fan -
USA
180 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2003 : 10:52:37
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I denounced God after my wife left me...
My wife has a split personality, and I hate both of them.
-- Anon |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2003 : 11:06:44
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quote:
Originally posted by glacial906
Who would argue that "Thou Shalt Not Kill" is a bad idea, Christian or Atheist?
My understanding is that the original commandment was "Thou Shalt Not Murder", which I can accept, but having said that, I for one find "Thou Shalt Not Kill (other humans)" to be bad, and even impossible, policy. Our evolutionary thread has been barbaric over almost all of its history, and this interlude of "civilization" constitutes little more than a delusional escape from our true nature. The more peaceful more of us become, the better victims our descendents will inevitably make later. |
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El Barto
= Song DB Master =
USA
4020 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2003 : 11:11:56
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I really don't like religion, and while I don't like uber-Christians, I don't really dislike the person. My old boss was an uber-Christian, but he was still a pretty cool guy...besides having some wack fanatical views on certain things. Even though I don't believe in God, I'd like to believe that if there really was a God, and he was really the all-knowing and everything, he'd smack down all the uber-Christians and religious fundamentalists for being so fucking un-knowing and just generally stupid. Being intelligent is being understanding, and being understanding isn't being judging.
 "I joined the Cult of Clops / If I were you, I'd sleep with one eye open." |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2003 : 11:13:20
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Define uber-Christian, s'il vous plait.
"I have joined the Cult Of Frank/And I have dearly paid"
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Edited by - Cheeseman1000 on 11/13/2003 11:14:07 |
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glacial906
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1738 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2003 : 11:15:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
quote:
Originally posted by glacial906
Who would argue that "Thou Shalt Not Kill" is a bad idea, Christian or Atheist?
My understanding is that the original commandment was "Thou Shalt Not Murder", which I can accept, but having said that, I for one find "Thou Shalt Not Kill (other humans)" to be bad, and even impossible, policy. Our evolutionary thread has been barbaric over almost all of its history, and this interlude of "civilization" constitutes little more than a delusional escape from our true nature. The more peaceful more of us become, the better victims our descendents will inevitably make later.
Impossible, probably. But, "bad?" I don't understand why you'd find it negative, if a little bit naive and hard to believe. Who will our descendents be victim to exactly? Other humans? If you take it down to the level of nations, then yes, complacency and unwillingness to kill would put us at a definite disadvantage. But, I was more talking about it as a morality for our entire race...I know that's an unrealistic, utopian viewpoint and I don't really expect it to happen any time soon, if ever. Maybe you're talking about on an evolutionary level..? Sorry.
If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe.
Carl Sagan
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Edited by - glacial906 on 11/13/2003 11:16:15 |
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El Barto
= Song DB Master =
USA
4020 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2003 : 11:20:40
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An uber-Christian is what I call a hardcore Christian, also known as a Bible beater. Someone who takes Christian views and values to an extreme. A fundamentalist. They live their life by the Bible and stuff like that. Get the drift? I'm sure you know someone like that.
"I joined the Cult of Clops / If I were you, I'd sleep with one eye open." |
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glacial906
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1738 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2003 : 11:21:38
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a.k.a. "southern baptists"
If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe.
Carl Sagan
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2003 : 11:28:27
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I dunno why, maybe because of lack of sleep due to a damned wind-storm from hell that was threatening to blow our house down all night long (and even still today!), but every time I read the thread topic, I keep seeing
"Christians vs Athletes"
and I do a double-take, with pictures in my head of sweaty people in trainers and tube socks running from rabid Christian zealots weilding 2-ton Commandment monuments....
<cough-cough--ahem!>...sorry
"I partied with the Cult of Frank / Bob ate all the dip" |
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glacial906
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1738 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2003 : 11:31:01
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LOL (I hate using that phrase but I really did laugh out loud!)
"Christian Coalition Decrees Regular Excercise and Physical Fitness Against Will of God!" would be the headlines that day.
If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe.
Carl Sagan
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2003 : 11:40:34
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quote:
Originally posted by El Barto
An uber-Christian is what I call a hardcore Christian, also known as a Bible beater. Someone who takes Christian views and values to an extreme. A fundamentalist. They live their life by the Bible and stuff like that. Get the drift? I'm sure you know someone like that.
"I joined the Cult of Clops / If I were you, I'd sleep with one eye open."
I don't think its wrong to live your life by the Bible. I think a lot of things that make certain fundamentalist Christian groups so gross is that they take a lot of things out of their original context and apply them wrongly. I honestly believe that if you live by truly Biblical principles you'll be happier for it, but then I guess I'm biased .
For example, the right-wing Christian groups in the US scare me to death, whereas those who put Christian principles to positive use, e.g. Martin Luther King, Tear Fund etc., are doing everyone a favour.
I guess the point that I'm trying to make is that there are lots of different sorts of Christians, and I don't think all of them are doing exactly what God intended for them to do. However, as humans, we're all prone to weakness - I know I certainly am.
I wouldn't get involved with politics, however, and I try to distance myself from that sort of mixing of state and 'church' (talking about established, traditional denominations like Anglican, Catholic etc.).
My only other point is to try and anticipate what's coming next, and say I don't believe religion causes wars, etc. I think man is such that if he didn't have religion, he'd find another excuse to fight.
"I have joined the Cult Of Frank/And I have dearly paid"
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2003 : 12:01:25
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin
quote:
Originally posted by Carolynanna
[Gideons came to our school too in gr.6, I remember they wouldn't give you the book unless you promised to read it.
This was in Canada? I didn't think any pushy people lived in Canada.
fraid so |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2003 : 12:27:42
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quote:
Originally posted by glacial906
quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
quote:
Originally posted by glacial906
Who would argue that "Thou Shalt Not Kill" is a bad idea, Christian or Atheist?
My understanding is that the original commandment was "Thou Shalt Not Murder", which I can accept, but having said that, I for one find "Thou Shalt Not Kill (other humans)" to be bad, and even impossible, policy. Our evolutionary thread has been barbaric over almost all of its history, and this interlude of "civilization" constitutes little more than a delusional escape from our true nature. The more peaceful more of us become, the better victims our descendents will inevitably make later.
Impossible, probably. But, "bad?" I don't understand why you'd find it negative, if a little bit naive and hard to believe. Who will our descendents be victim to exactly? Other humans? If you take it down to the level of nations, then yes, complacency and unwillingness to kill would put us at a definite disadvantage. But, I was more talking about it as a morality for our entire race...I know that's an unrealistic, utopian viewpoint and I don't really expect it to happen any time soon, if ever. Maybe you're talking about on an evolutionary level..? Sorry.
Yes, on an evolutionary level, although I realize that from that perspective there is neither bad nor good. But I termed it "bad policy" in the sense that if we want to retain cherished aspects of humanity, they must be defended. I also meant that that human dna which somehow foregos intraspecial violence dooms itself to the evolutionary dustbin. To paraphrase Richard Dawkins, peace makes for the most fruitful playground of the warlike. |
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Dallas
= Cult of Ray =
USA
725 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2003 : 13:36:50
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To say that the 10 commandments have no place in a federal building is simply specious.
The 10 commandments are the backbone of american and most of the worlds system of laws. Moses and the 10 C's are on the Supreme Court building and many others across the US and have been forever. Included in that sculpture (and some others) are other lawmakers from across civilizations such as Hammurabi, Confucious and others.
So, the 10 C's and the courts are historically linked and inextricable. Moore was req'd to remove them because he chose to defend their placement on religious grounds. That is that the Alabama Constitution sets out its laws with "the knowledge and in the service of God". Those are not the exact words, but, the Alabama constitution explicitly cites God as the precursor for its laws etc.. So rather than simply defend himself on grounds that the 10C's were a historical representation of the genesis of law, Moore chose to argue that the Alabama constitution requires him to recognize God lest he not be carrying out his state constitution. He wanted to be made a martyr and to generate publicity (it worked) in my point of view. That opened up a window for those suing the state to argue that Moore in fact was endorsing a particular religious point of view. That argument has won the case thus far (the Supremem court declined to engage I believe).
So again, the Moore case is different from simply having the 10 C's on court buildings. The 10 C's absolutely have a place in courthouses in the US as they have been for generations. Judges turning to those sculptures or plaques and saying "these are the laws that govern me and should govern you" do not have a place.
Another case of the American system of Gov't actually working (Moore has lost his job and the commandments as religious relic have been removed), yet, America coming under attack anyway. Go figure. |
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ProverbialCereal
- FB TabMaster -
USA
2953 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2003 : 13:54:11
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The worst, most ridiculous "Christian t-shirt" I ever saw was one that had an open Bible on the front with a caption that read "Crack a Bible, get high on Christ."
This really has nothing to do with the topic. I haven't even read everyone's responses but I thought I'd throw this in.
 "Join the Cult of Mr. Potato Head / And You'll Have Buckets of Fun" |
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the swimmer
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1602 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2003 : 14:03:06
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It's not State Over Religion it's seperation of church and state.
If you don't, you get whackos.
Look at that fucking General who said "I knew my God was bigger than his"
I have one question for you General...what DOES it look like inside a human ass? You seem to be the most capable of describing, live, what it's like as your head is up there as we speak. |
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ramona
"FB Quote Mistress"
USA
3988 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2003 : 14:31:10
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quote:
Originally posted by realmeanmotorscutor
it's the seperation of church and state. he has te right to believe in the commandments but they have no place in a court of law.
"I joined the Cult of Popeye / The CoF required my good eye"
This is correct - and was the point I was going to make, but it also makes no sense to me because we ignore it in a million other ways. Such as, why do people have to swear on a bible when they testify? |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2003 : 14:32:52
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Exzzzactly - not to mention the new "Faith-based Initiatives"
"I partied with the Cult of Frank / Bob ate all the dip" |
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Brackish Girl
~ Soul Eater ~
Ireland
1750 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2003 : 14:33:43
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quote:
Originally posted by realmeanmotorscutor
why do people have to swear on a bible when they testify?
ooh...good one.
 "I joined the Cult of Trippy/...what was i singing again???" |
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Dallas
= Cult of Ray =
USA
725 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2003 : 14:40:19
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Of course it makes no sense. Its a canard. The US was closest to being a "christian" state the day the constitution was signed than any other point in its history. All of the references to God in the constitution, declaration, etc. did nothing to create a state-sponsored religion. But idiots take up valuable time in courts using that fear as justification when they are simply acting out their own bigotry against Christians.
The guy who sued in California over his daughter saying the pledge is a great example. He didnt even have custody over his daughter when he filed the suit. His daughter believes in God and wants to say the pledge, she believes it. Her mother, who has custody, also supports the pledge and wants her daughter to recite it (again, consistent with the girls wishes).
Still, this clown sues and purports to be damaged by the Pledge of Allegiance. Its hilarious if it weren't so sad.
It is about people who hate Christians and Christianity acting out. Liberal judges like those in San Francisco twist the law to the point where a father who doesnt have custody of his own daughter can sue on her behalf regardless of her wishes or the wishes of her guardian...AND WIN.
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Dallas
= Cult of Ray =
USA
725 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2003 : 14:46:15
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LOL - the new faith based initiatives! That is funny. They are ALL NEW!!
That term was made up so that religious groups that provide services for the homeless and the like can get funding to help them provide those services to more people. The Salvation Army for example. So new, so faith based, SO WROOOOONGGGGG. The groups have to provide the services to all, regardless of faith and they must make no faith-based demands on those they serve.
I hate to break it to you, but, LOTS and LOTS of people who are moved to help the homeless and downtrodden do so because they believe that all men are created equal and that which you do for the weakest you have done in the service of your God. Its not even a proprietary Christian ethic. Most religions have similar tenets.
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2003 : 14:51:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Dallas
It is about people who hate Christians and Christianity acting out.
I think that's a little over-generalized, Dallas. There are others who are not "against" Christianity, or are even of the same faith, that do not want to see our government/society veer into quiet favoritism. I agree that there are contradictions in our own laws and behaviors, and also that many concepts in our laws are in accordance with Christian dogma, so it is absurd to pick one battle (Pledge of Allegiance) over another ("In God We Trust" on the currency) - but they [moral guidelines/the laws of the land] are also in accordance with many other teachings of other faiths. I don't know of many religions that tout "hate thy neighbor" or "it's okay to steal".
"I partied with the Cult of Frank / Bob ate all the dip" |
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