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TarTar
* Dog in the Sand *
1965 Posts |
 Posted - 10/23/2003 : 00:57:36
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| haha. I'm going for the ultimate obsesse/miniscual importance post ever here, but I'm drunk, and a subject like this just seems extremely relevant. Frank Black has so many awkward chord changes in his songs, but they all manage to be sonorously amazing and appreciable once you've absorbed the entireity of each song. However, for as many bizarre chord changes as there may be in his repetoire, I'm always awestruck by the power that lies within the simplicity of Valenite and Garuda's opening, which is simply C Am Em G, I believe, a common chord progression used consistently throughout rock history, yet somehow fresh and powerful, even in 2002 (or 2003, for that matter), when fretted and strummed by the hands of the person who has written Ole Mulholland and The Swimmer. Oh, and that latter song also contains my second favorite chord progression by Mr. Thompson. I mean, how the fuck do you come up with such bizarre chord changes and yet still produce a catchy song like The Swimmer. Anyway, do tell what are your favorite chord changes, if'n you understand that types of mumbo jumbo, and if'n ya don't, still, do tell. |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2003 : 01:52:27
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I guess Ana would be my fave. If you know your music theory its E-Bbm at the beginning, then some crazy chord changes which modulate half a step up later in the song. I reckon that's Black Francis trying to be Brian Wilson.
As for FB chord changes, I'd go with the high A to C# at the start of the chorus in Los Angeles. Its followed by A to D to F, which is also ace.
"Lets me knife, knife me lets" |
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mark t
- FB Fan -
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2003 : 08:11:09
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Itchload
= Cult of Ray =
USA
891 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2003 : 10:12:51
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I like Space is Gonna Do Me Good (so good Frank used the same chord change for Valentine and Garuda! or similiar anyway)
I think he has incredible chord changes. Jaina Blues, what a catchy guitar. That's one thing Frank has over many other prolific songwriters, not only are his vocal melodies constantly great, but the chords he comes up with are still great as well (unlike Bob Pollard, who can come up with great vocal melodies, but ran out of guitar parts in 1996). |
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realmeanmotorscutor
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1764 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2003 : 10:21:18
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I know nothing of music so I'm just wasting your time here. This isn't even a cord change but I love that note in Coastline that just goes "PING!" and fades off. Like I said, I got nothing.
Semper ubi sub ubi. |
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ProverbialCereal
- FB TabMaster -
USA
2953 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2003 : 10:38:51
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Speaking of "Coastline," listen closely at 0:30 seconds. Hear that buzzing-type noise and that slight dissonant note the guitar hits? I guess that's a subtle mistake. I wanted to mention that but didn't want to start a thread just for a buzzing noise.
 "Join the Cult of Mr. Potato Head / And You'll Have Buckets of Fun" |
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realmeanmotorscutor
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1764 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2003 : 12:43:45
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yeah, I had wanted to mention the PING but feared being lynched for starting such a thread. I'm litening to SMYT now, I'll listen for the buzz.
Semper ubi sub ubi. |
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spoon
- FB Fan -
45 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2003 : 13:06:41
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wow...where to start.
Firstly I mis-understood and thought you were after chord "changes"...which would really be two (possibly three quick) chords....But after reading your post, I think you were after chord "progressions"...
in which Cheeseman brings up a killer...Ana. Wow. BTW, Cheeseman, BF is changing scales in mid-song...something the classical crowd has been doing since their inception.
I love that progression and the scale change....simply stunning. It melds with Joey's lead seemlessly....one of those songs I wish went on for another 4 minutes...
So many choices....I guess I will hold short and only mention one other (though he has many specialties): the first section of "Smoke Up" is particularly nice (it is repeated again for the solo). One of those "off" out-of-scale progressions.
(Oh but there's "Something Against You", "Where is my Mind", "Nimrod's Son", "I Bleed"......)
This thread could go on for years....Academic circles could form classes to study this.
Enjoy,
spoon |
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DruggedBunny
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
395 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2003 : 13:12:15
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Alec Eiffel is pretty out there, yet still catchy as hell.
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vilainde
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Niue
7441 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2003 : 13:12:51
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I just listened to the first album and the intro of Ramona has an amazing chord progression.
Realmean...: you're totally right, that "ping" in Coastline is wonderful. There's one too in the solo of When Will Happiness Find Me Again that's great.
Denis
 "In the Cult of Frank/You don't even get backstage passes" |
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BLT
> Teenager of the Year <
South Sandwich Islands
4204 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2003 : 14:05:45
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I've always loved the end of "Pie in the Sky".
 "I paid the owner twice the rental / To which he was otherwise entitled." |
Edited by - BLT on 10/23/2003 16:45:59 |
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BrendanT
= Cult of Ray =
Canada
907 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2003 : 14:44:21
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I must agree with BLT and say that I can never stop playing Pie In The Sky. It is agreat way to get the fingers loosened.
Strummer-man
I had me a vision!
It's step, hip, step, pivot! Are you trying to piss-off the volcano?! |
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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Netherlands
6183 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2003 : 14:56:33
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The one thing that so crazy about FB is that if I play his chord progressions they suck, only the first time, I think ''this is not wat FB plays, this sucks'', but after a while I start to understand them and than it's ok. It's the way he plays them
''it's not a box, it's a submarine'' |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2003 : 15:12:53
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Listen, you crazy spoon, don't try to blind me with science, I just spent six months studying the intricacies of the Pixies' music. In fact, it is a semitonal modulation: the chord sequence shifts almost imperceptibly, which is a very difficult thing to do without heading into boyband key change territory. The lead line is almost perfectly concordant with the harmony, yet still stays in the same fretboard position throughout.
But seriously, I'm glad you can recognise the genius of the songwriting here, I'm pretty sure its the peak of his compositional form, at least with the Pixies.
"In Heaven/Everything is fine/You got your good thing/And I've got mine"
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Chris Knight
= Cult of Ray =
USA
899 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2003 : 17:19:04
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The chord prog on the verses of Velouria is cool in that it's a five-chord prog played twice for each verse, yet the vocal melody de-emphasizes this fact and makes the verse sound like one long chord progression. Of course, the absolute best chord prog in any FB song would hafta be the 13-chorded verse of "His Kingly Cave".
The guitar solo in When Will Happiness Find Me Again reminds me of the band Galaxie 500. An arhythmic chain of notes played with a soft attack and super-droney distortion. I love it. |
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Kirk
= Cult of Ray =
USA
633 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2003 : 19:21:38
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"Ana" is also my favorite when considering chord progressions, CheeseMan1000. That song is full of key changes. The same substance that got me and kept me attracted to the Pixies. Not the stupid loud noises.
One thing I've noticed with Frank Black's chords is: he definitely isn't schooled with theory. He know what sounds good, but some minor chords should be major, and vice versa. For example, working with "Wave of Mutilation" for the Pixies-cover-album, It should be F Am Bb Gm, instead of his F A(major) Bb Gm <theoretically…>. I believe some influence of picking chords came from Joey. But, overall, it’s up to the guy who picks the chords and not some rules man instituted.
-Kirk |
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TarTar
* Dog in the Sand *
1965 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2003 : 01:06:03
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| That was one of things I was consistently confused by when first listening to the Pixies and Frank Black, how there many minor chords that, in the key, should have been major. Wave of Mutliation was one, and where is my mind was another. The progression, E C#m G# A should have a G#m, theoretically, but hell, it sounds so much better being G# major. It also seemed strange the way many parts would go 4/4, 4/4, 4/4, 2/4, like verse progression for River Euphrates. I was baffled by this. Now it seems normal. |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2003 : 01:24:13
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The cool thing about the Pixies' music is the dissonances. Velouria is a good example, just as is Debaser (G major where it should be G minor). Also check out Isla De Encanta, another great progression: thats all major barre chords, but B-Bb-A-C. That definitely shouldn't work, but in a flamenco kind of way, it does.
"In Heaven/Everything is fine/You got your good thing/And I've got mine"
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two reelers
* Dog in the Sand *
Austria
1034 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2003 : 02:14:34
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distance equals rate times time out of trompe le monde - just three chords, all the songs through, and i could listen for hours. these chords fit so perfectly with the lyrics & singing/screaming in this song, it is incredible and gives me shivers every time.
and of course, the song trompe le monde itself. |
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FranknWeezer
= Cult of Ray =
USA
356 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2003 : 12:30:55
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Count me in as a Valentine and Garuda chord progression fan. Great and unexpected changes one could only could expect them from FB. Fun song to play, too. Also, I agree Pie in the Sky gets you all up and down the fretboard in a hurry and it's a gas to play. I think it would sound incredible slowed down on pedal steel (i.e. the live version of Fiddle Riddle).
The Cult of Ray has great changes, too.
Our man is one helluva guitar player.
-FranknWeezer |
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Doryphore
- FB Fan -
Belgium
111 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2003 : 09:08:12
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Did anyone learn to play This Old Heartache. I think Frank uses all the 'powerchords', both on the low E- and A-string, up to the high E.
That's so crazy, I don't know how he does it... |
Edited by - Doryphore on 10/26/2003 09:09:05 |
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interloper
= Cult of Ray =
440 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2003 : 09:49:46
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Without a second thought, I nominate Alec Eiffel. Particularly, the end section with the kind of revolving chord change effect, for a lack of a better description, which seemingly is an older trick of his. The end section of No. 13 is kinda the same thing. I roughly learned Alec Eiffel a while back, and if I remember correctly, for all the guitar players, that it's in drop D, but starts up high, probably around C. It just kills me, I've got it on now. The song is just unforgettable. Parry the wind, high low, Places named after numbers, Ten Percenter, I will run after you, So. Bay, Robert Onion, and San Antonio Texas all stick out in my mind as particularly clever songs of late.
The guy is just so naturally great at what he does, it's frightening. |
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interloper
= Cult of Ray =
440 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2003 : 09:59:54
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As a side note, (and Id be curious to know if anyone agrees) Frank Black songs all sound to me like they really didn't require a whole lot of time to conceive. I don't see his stuff being written with much of a second glance. It all sounds like it's happening while you hear it. That certain zen-like ability to let things happen is true talent, and as at least some of you know, is extremely hard to do. I can almost see him spitting out little chord progressions and adjusting the melody quickly. It all doesn't really sound like he dreamed it up and then made it a reality. It sounds more like it grew from little experiments.
Okay, I'll stop now. |
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humpy-wheeler
- FB Fan -
USA
37 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2003 : 11:10:13
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How about in Motorway to Roswell in the second part leading up to the chourus when he goes,"Last night he could not make..." and it goes right back in. He cuts the part in half but it fits very nicely don't it? Kind of like Dig for Fire how he does'nt bother singing the second chorus at all. Odd, but it sounds so natural.
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cigarinthesky
- FB Fan -
USA
24 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2003 : 12:40:22
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I don't know chord changes/progressions from breakfast cereals, but this is all very interesting. As a music lover who doesn't actually play, it's great to come on this sight and read this kind of thread. I've always loved the solo on Happiness and the chord changes on Valentine, for instance. It's cool to hear the "why" part from ears that are "trained". So here's a question for the trained ears: why is "River Euphrates" so damn hypnotic? It's my favorite Pixies song - it grabs you and won't let you go .. why is that?
p.s. Favorite breakfast cereal thread coming soon (kidding) |
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Old Neptuna
- FB Fan -
Ireland
200 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2003 : 01:08:58
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'Let's take it back to that minor chord'
Steak 'n' Sabre - love all that wandering around the fretboard.
River Euphrates - to me it's because the vocals are strong and cos Joey's guitar pieces your ears on that half-bending a string thing that he used to do.
 "I have seen the neighbours dog, and I was not afraid..." |
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Leah
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
314 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2003 : 04:53:53
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Superabound or Brackish boy...
I just love the way that Superabound is like a rollercoaster...
Every choice human being strives instinctively for a citadel and a secrecy where he is saved from the crowd -
Nietzsche |
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PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2003 : 07:47:45
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i don't understand why you lot are saying it should be minor when its major or vice versa. there are rules in music? how limiting.
i particularly like the chord progression in ed is dead. |
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Kirk
= Cult of Ray =
USA
633 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2003 : 09:01:00
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These rules were developed and followed by earlier musicians, such as Bach and Mozart. Today, these guidelines are followed in most predictable pop songs. I haven't seen many "wrong chords" in Frank's new stuff because the latest band members are possibly schooled. Elliott Smith is an example of being schooled, also.
The Pixies, on the other hand… I’d just say, my college theory professor would pass the kids. My response: F*** the professor. It doesn’t matter.
-Kirk |
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crippe
- FB Fan -
Sweden
64 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2003 : 06:04:22
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| I think Massif Centrale has a real cool chord progression. When the song kicks off into that high pitched vocal thing - GREAT. Gives me the chills every time, one of his best moments I think. |
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Malax
* Dog in the Sand *
United Kingdom
1340 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2003 : 10:55:25
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| Duhh bullet has a chord change cos frank says so, so I like that one bestest. Dey shud all come with frank introductions then i wud no when they appened. |
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Old Neptuna
- FB Fan -
Ireland
200 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2003 : 12:19:28
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Ahh Bullet - the greatest of all music lessons - cheers Frank.
"I have seen the neighbours dog, and I was not afraid..." |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2003 : 12:25:44
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quote:
Kirk
= Cult of Ray =
58 Posts
Posted - 10/27/2003 : 09:01:00
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These rules were developed and followed by earlier musicians, such as Bach and Mozart. Today, these guidelines are followed in most predictable pop songs. I haven't seen many "wrong chords" in Frank's new stuff because the latest band members are possibly schooled. Elliott Smith is an example of being schooled, also.
The Pixies, on the other hand… I’d just say, my college theory professor would pass the kids. My response: F*** the professor. It doesn’t matter.
-Kirk
When I was studying music at school my teacher would always tell us to listen to more different sorts of music to broaden our horions. So before our lessons I always liked to put on some music for him to hear. Unfortunately, he was used to it by the time I put Pixies on, but the first time I did it I think I played NoFX's So Long And Thanks For All The Shoes, and I told him I was listening to some different music.
He went an odd shade of purple, which was kind of satisfying.
"I have joined the Cult Of Frank/And I have dearly paid"
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DruggedBunny
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
395 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2003 : 15:39:55
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I just realised one of the best changes: 'Massif Centrale' when it goes from the 3-note intro tune (ending on Dm?), down to the big E that kicks off "monsieurs at nine". Wow.
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TarTar
* Dog in the Sand *
1965 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2003 : 05:10:23
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Cigarinthesky, River Euphrates is actually one of the songs on Surfer Rosa that doesn't deviate from basic rock chord progressions, at least during the verse, which is the most hypnotic part. I can't recall off the top of my head what key it's in, but the chord progression is simply 1 4 5, a progression that can be found in almost every Ramones song, thousands of rock songs, plenty from the 90s like Weezer's Sweater Song, and Bird Dream and Head On from Trompe Le Monde use this progression. What makes River Euphrates unique is that, like many song composed by Charles Thompson, the chord progression doesn't go for as long as it conventionally should, ending and repeating itself before most composers would cut it off and start it over. The vocals sung over this add to it, but what is secretly really providing the hypnotic quality is the lead guitar, which comes in quickly alternating between the root note and the leading tone, which provides one of the most beautiful dissonances in music, and the combination of a root note and the leading tone is very pleasing in a mysteriously beautiful way. Huge hits from the last 10 years that use this technique are the Smashing Pumpkins 1979 and the Foo Fighters Everlong.
As for the chorus on Rivers Euphrates, it's fucking wacky and crazy. |
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cigarinthesky
- FB Fan -
USA
24 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2003 : 14:36:37
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Hey TarTar,
Thanks for breaking it down for me -- very cool. I had always thought the root notes and leading notes you're talking about were two different guitars, but I just re-listened to the song and see what you're talking about (I see said the blind man). Pretty interesting how he flips back and forth that way and still keeps everything so fluid. Is this also the half-bending thing Old Neptuna was talking about? Anyway, what a cool song! I love how the vocals blend/complement/whatever with the lead guitar during that "switchover" you explained for me -- very pleasing indeed. And I'm glad he's not stuck out on the Gaza strip anymore -- scary place to be stranded (I'm assuming he's talking about himself) ..
uote]Originally posted by TarTar
Cigarinthesky, River Euphrates is actually one of the songs on Surfer Rosa that doesn't deviate from basic rock chord progressions, at least during the verse, which is the most hypnotic part. I can't recall off the top of my head what key it's in, but the chord progression is simply 1 4 5, a progression that can be found in almost every Ramones song, thousands of rock songs, plenty from the 90s like Weezer's Sweater Song, and Bird Dream and Head On from Trompe Le Monde use this progression. What makes River Euphrates unique is that, like many song composed by Charles Thompson, the chord progression doesn't go for as long as it conventionally should, ending and repeating itself before most composers would cut it off and start it over. The vocals sung over this add to it, but what is secretly really providing the hypnotic quality is the lead guitar, which comes in quickly alternating between the root note and the leading tone, which provides one of the most beautiful dissonances in music, and the combination of a root note and the leading tone is very pleasing in a mysteriously beautiful way. Huge hits from the last 10 years that use this technique are the Smashing Pumpkins 1979 and the Foo Fighters Everlong.
As for the chorus on Rivers Euphrates, it's fucking wacky and crazy.
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