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realmeanmotorscutor
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1764 Posts |
 Posted - 10/18/2003 : 12:25:52
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Last week was national coming out week and the students of the Bi/gay/lesbian group here at school have an annual sidewalk chalking. Last year it got out of hand; people wrote into the newspaper that they were offended by the chalkings and that it was disgusting to flaunt their sexuality. These responses spawned endless counter attacks and condecendingly pointless "lessons" in vocabulary from brain dead professors, the details of which are too numerous and boring to get into here.
I was not offended in the least and thought all outcries against it were absurd. One thing that did occur to me, however, when pondering certain vocabulary and semantics, was the word pride. Pride indicates choice. National and ethnic pride has always baffled me just the same. I'm not about to prance around shouting my pride at being Irish because I had nothing to do with that. A person can only be truly proud of what they had a hand in doing. Announcing gay pride only gives the homophobes a certain power; with that they can technically say "see, you chose to be gay." It's semantics, I know, but something worth pondering.
All of this got me thinking even more about the gay plight. Just recently I watched Hedwig and the Angry Inch and while I really did love it I was a bit concerned at the furthering of stereotypes. Here's a play written, directed, and acted by a gay man and yet many of the scenes are creepy and portray the dark side of the gay lifestyle, such as becoming a prostitute. The film also references the play Rent. Rent disgusts me to no end. Here's a play with the message, "live for today; tomorrow is inconsequential, do what makes you happy now." That means have sex with whomever you please even though you know you have AIDS, and they do. I could hardly believe it when this play got a standing ovation when I went to see it. I had no idea the play would be this dark and evil spirited. Why do the audiences cheer these highly immoral characters? They literally believe they are supporting a righteous cause!
I'm bothered immensely by the hundreds of films and plays that depict gay life as a dirty, selfish, dark existence. You would think homosexual artists would strive to destroy such stereotypes but they continue to dig themselves deeper.
I hope no part of this rant is misunderstood. This is a touchy issue and if you feel differently please let yourself be known or ask me to clarify my feelings.
Semper ubi sub ubi. |
Edited by - realmeanmotorscutor on 10/18/2003 19:51:51 |
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interloper
= Cult of Ray =
440 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2003 : 13:57:58
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I see your sentiment. I have a problem with proclamation. The mere idea of claiming yourself as anything in particular seems stifling. My instincts in life generally keep me suspicious of people who have a burning desire to let you know what they're all about. Self induced stereotyping is pretty weird too. Sex in the City, for instance, is very popular with women. They seem proud of it. I watched it a few times and I perceived it to be reality television about four women who do nothing but work and chase boys. They all have pretty garden variety personalities and seem to have no real interests. If I was a women, I think I would find it depressing.....Everyone agrees that all people of all types should be able to get along, yet are all proclaiming their racial, sexual, and biological differences at the same time. Who cares? The mere fact that people even think about this stuff is a setback and is exactly what creates the walls in the first place. Just wait til the aliens invade us, and then see how much we all care.
Im cool cause I have blonde hair. |
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realmeanmotorscutor
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1764 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2003 : 14:56:13
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quote:
Originally posted by interloper
The mere fact that people even think about this stuff is a setback and is exactly what creates the walls in the first place.
Thanks for the thoughts interloper. I was beginning to think that the 5 read this thread got were just people who clicked on it then saw how long it was and clicked back.
I like that line of yours I quoted here. I feel the exact same way about certain racial establishments and rallies. I've said just what you've said many times but I don't think it'll ever sink in for anyone. Of course there are still a lot of problems to be overcome which demands continuing protests and such.
For instance, on a bi/gay/lesbian bulletin board someone wrote "Homos Go Home." Not only is that an asshole thing to say it's also stupid. Where are they supposed to go? Back to their country perhaps??!! This is clearly evidence that supports further programs such as the chalkings to make people aware of the hate.
Semper ubi sub ubi. |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2003 : 17:59:56
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I believe the 'choice' they refer to is that you can choose to be OUTWARDLY gay here, where in other countries that liberation does not exist.
I haven't seen Rent, but i thought Hedwig was great, and didn't really seem too negative.. Different and confused even, yes, but that wasn't the impression for me. It's been a while tho..
It would be nice to see more touching, positive stories reflecting gay lifestyles... Six Feet Under has a pretty good vibe to it...really, they seem no different than any other couple, despite being two men.
Proclamation isn't necessary for the status quo, or what's 'regular', or 'accepted'. Thus it's necessary for minority groups to make their presence more visible. Sometimes it reflects a lack of security and confidence, but often it's not.
Also, with the proclamation, there are significant groups of people OPPOSED to them, so they work to make it easier for people who feel the same as them. Oppresion sucks.
Sex in the City is one of the most shallow and pathetic shows i've seen in a while..very sad if any woman considers this a form of liberation. Sad sad sad.
My thoughts..good topic. |
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realmeanmotorscutor
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1764 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2003 : 18:28:53
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Thanks Dave, I agree with everything you said. I was just talking to a friend about why there aren't more normal "gay" movies. I would like to see some films about a gay couple who're going through the typical love difficulties while dealing with their families and friends. I'll def have to check out this Six Feet Under.
Thanks for bothering to read this too, not too many others seem to want to. I thought there would be a lot to say about this; guess I was wrong.
Semper ubi sub ubi. |
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realmeanmotorscutor
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1764 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2003 : 18:31:39
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Damn, I should have held of on responding, then people would have seen your name and maybe read this damn thread. now it probably just looks like I keep responding to my own topic.
Semper ubi sub ubi. |
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mereubu
= FB QuizMistress =
USA
2677 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2003 : 20:39:56
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Em, Em, come quick! They're bad-mouthin' SATC!!
Two words, gentlemen: Mr. Big.
 "I joined the Cult of Frank / And all I got was this lousy icon" |
Edited by - mereubu on 10/18/2003 20:40:27 |
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realmeanmotorscutor
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1764 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2003 : 21:12:57
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What's SATC? I'm lost.
Semper ubi sub ubi. |
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NO.13Girl
- FB Fan -
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2003 : 22:19:58
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quote:
Originally posted by interloper
Everyone agrees that all people of all types should be able to get along, yet are all proclaiming their racial, sexual, and biological differences at the same time. Who cares? The mere fact that people even think about this stuff is a setback and is exactly what creates the walls in the first place.
I agree with you completely!
 "I joined the Cult of Frank / Aren't I Special?"
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realmeanmotorscutor
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1764 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2003 : 23:11:11
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I forgot to mention that BGLAD (the bi/gay/lesbian group) hated Hedwig which I found quite interesting.
Semper ubi sub ubi. |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2003 : 23:58:40
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"Pride indicates choice."
I don't think I agree with this. If I can be proud of my parents (and ancestors) for who they are and what they have accomplished, then can' t I just as well be proud of my ethnic group or nationality even if I didn't choose them? Should African-Americans not be proud of the hardships that their ancestors endured and the contributions they have made to society?
I do believe that pride is dangerous thing that leads to elitism and exclusion, but I do think one can be proud of things that they have had no direct bearing on (well their genes were present at the accomplishment). |
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mereubu
= FB QuizMistress =
USA
2677 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2003 : 07:39:11
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quote:
Originally posted by realmeanmotorscutor
What's SATC? I'm lost.
Semper ubi sub ubi.
Sex and the City.
"I joined the Cult of Frank / And all I got was this lousy icon" |
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mereubu
= FB QuizMistress =
USA
2677 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2003 : 07:51:43
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quote:
Originally posted by realmeanmotorscutor
I forgot to mention that BGLAD (the bi/gay/lesbian group) hated Hedwig which I found quite interesting.
Semper ubi sub ubi.
Um, which BGLAD group? Prize-wise, it cleaned up at several gay/lesbian/transgender film festivals, and I know that the BGLAD group on my campus adored it. I wish I'd taught Hedwig in one of my classes b/c we ended up talking about it so much anyway. John Cameron Mitchell has pointed out time and again that he does not even think of Hedwig as a "gay" movie, because the movie is never once about his/her struggle with gay identity. Hansel--it's a given, it's part of his personality, it's not a plot point. What the movie is about is this one very particular person's search for wholeness, and I think that JCM is very loving in his depiction of Hedwig in all his/her flawed glory. I don't think he's attempting to make some sweeping statement On Behalf of All Gayfolk. It's a lovely little dream. It is what it is.
"I joined the Cult of Frank / And all I got was this lousy icon" |
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ramona
"FB Quote Mistress"
USA
3988 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2003 : 08:25:28
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quote:
Originally posted by mereubu
Em, Em, come quick! They're bad-mouthin' SATC!!
Two words, gentlemen: Mr. Big.
"I joined the Cult of Frank / And all I got was this lousy icon"
I may have to throw the smack down. Chris Noth is a cupcake indeed. |
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mereubu
= FB QuizMistress =
USA
2677 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2003 : 08:41:44
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Yes ma'am. I'm ready for the next round of DVDs.
And why does it have to be liberating or empowering just b/c it's about women? Isn't it enough that it's funny as hell? No one expected the women on AbFab to be moral paragons, sweetie dahlings.
"I joined the Cult of Frank / And all I got was this lousy icon" |
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realmeanmotorscutor
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1764 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2003 : 09:05:40
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Mereubu, I agree with you entirely. I really liked the outcome of Hedwig, that he didn't need another person to complete him. In that sense it had a beautiful message.
Darwin, I still say that a person should take no pride in what has come before them. To use your example, African Americans have earned nothing simply by being born. That isn't to say they don't have hardships to overcome and injustices to continue battling but genes to not factor into it. I also think I think it's a mistake to take pride in your parents accomplishments. Unless you have furthered the families accomplishments you have no claim to familial pride. There are countless people out there who walk around with their heads high but who've achieved nothing, it's pathetic, ignorant and self-defeating.
Semper ubi sub ubi. |
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Itchload
= Cult of Ray =
USA
891 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2003 : 10:02:38
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| RealMotors, rent "Fox and His Friends"! It's by Fassbinder, it's about a lower class gay carnival worker who wins the lottery and falls in love with a guy who's basically just trying to exploit him. It's an amazing movie, as are all of Fassbinders. The thing with Fassbinder movies (a couple are about gay relationships, many have at least some gay component) is that the movies are never 'gay' movies, the plot of Fox and His Friends would have worked even if the couple was straight. The homosexuality is never even made to be a big deal, it's just presented naturally. |
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realmeanmotorscutor
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1764 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2003 : 10:35:54
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excellent, thats Itchload, that sounds great.
Semper ubi sub ubi. |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2003 : 07:27:02
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I haven't seen Hedwig or Rent, but the latter, from what I've heard of it and about it in reviews and interviews, already gets on my nerves. Probably because I can't stand broadway and musicals. I guess I just don't have any interest in seeing Hedwig, even with FB in the soundtrack. Oh well, I do like Laurie Anderson, and her bf Lou Reed, so that must count for something...;)
On the pride and negativity topic, I think that any area where oppression and identity confusion are concerned, there will be an over-the-top backlash to try to balance the boat to center. So it rocks for a while, and just like straight people, there are gay people that have weird lives or the desire to make movies about the seedy side of life. I don't think either "camp" has the market cornered on being imperfect. There are rarely movies about people who are healthy and have no problems or run-ins with the dark side...I don't think there is a particular conspiracy against showing gays in healthy roles - I think if there is any conspiracy involved, it is against showing any thoughtful independent people who successfully go against socially-mandated norms of behavior and thought. (mostly an american/hollywood problem from what I've seen - watch a lot of indie and foreign films). Well, sorry if I waxed too pseudo-intellectual there, but hey, that's what I am. And I'm proud of it! ;)
Laurie Anderson, "White Lily":
What Fassbinder film is it? The one-armed
Man walks into a flower shop and says:
What flower expresses
Days go by
And they just keep going by endlessly
Pulling you
Into the future.
Days go by
Endlessly
Endlessly pulling you
Into the future.
And the florist says:
White Lily.
Itchload, I wonder if FoxNews realizes their morning show "Fox and Friends" is named similarly to that movie. Rupert Murdoch would keel over, I'm thinkin! hmmmm
Vyvyan Basterd: I was in the basement, playing my favorite game, 'Murder In The Dark.' |
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realmeanmotorscutor
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1764 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2003 : 07:47:21
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Hey apl, I'm not meaning to sound like a jerk here but I've noticed that you refer to yourself as a pseudo-intellectual quite frequently. What do you think makes a psuedo-intellectual and when did you start considering yourself one? I realize that sounds sarcastic but I mean it. You really are a smart gal, I'm just curious at what point in a person's life they can consider themselves one.
Semper ubi sub ubi. |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2003 : 08:08:15
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I just wonder why the 'pseudo'. She's clearly an intellectual.
"Join the Cult of Frank / And you'll be enlightened" |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2003 : 08:13:27
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Oh, a guy I consider to be the expert on human failings and personality categorization once told me so. He was probably kidding -partially- but I don't care, cause he's treid to rile me before, and he's just a striaght-up pisser. I only say it tongue-in-cheek - I don't have any hang-ups about where I stand in the mental hierarchy - I'm equally accidentally a retard as I am accidentally smart! All in good fun, I assure you! ;) As far as your question about how one could consider themselves one, I dunno...and thanks for the compliment! :)
Vyvyan Basterd: I was in the basement, playing my favorite game, 'Murder In The Dark.' |
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Scarla O
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
947 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2003 : 08:22:55
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quote:
Originally posted by realmeanmotorscutor
Darwin, I still say that a person should take no pride in what has come before them. To use your example, African Americans have earned nothing simply by being born. That isn't to say they don't have hardships to overcome and injustices to continue battling but genes to not factor into it. I also think I think it's a mistake to take pride in your parents accomplishments. Unless you have furthered the families accomplishments you have no claim to familial pride. There are countless people out there who walk around with their heads high but who've achieved nothing, it's pathetic, ignorant and self-defeating.
Semper ubi sub ubi.
Yes, I agree with you Realmeanmotorscooter.
I think that whilst you can be proud of your government (for which you may or may not have voted) and even the civic institutions which are the result of that - i personally find it self-defeating and perhaps deluding to feel proud of being 'British' since I had no choice in the matter and have had no impact on the history/culture to which that pride refers. |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2003 : 09:30:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Scarla O
quote:
Originally posted by realmeanmotorscutor
Darwin, I still say that a person should take no pride in what has come before them. To use your example, African Americans have earned nothing simply by being born. That isn't to say they don't have hardships to overcome and injustices to continue battling but genes to not factor into it. I also think I think it's a mistake to take pride in your parents accomplishments. Unless you have furthered the families accomplishments you have no claim to familial pride. There are countless people out there who walk around with their heads high but who've achieved nothing, it's pathetic, ignorant and self-defeating.
Semper ubi sub ubi.
Yes, I agree with you Realmeanmotorscooter.
I think that whilst you can be proud of your government (for which you may or may not have voted) and even the civic institutions which are the result of that - i personally find it self-defeating and perhaps deluding to feel proud of being 'British' since I had no choice in the matter and have had no impact on the history/culture to which that pride refers.
What should one call it when one is happy or pleased with something their kids have accomplished even if one doesn't think it indicates one's abilities.
If I see my daughter doing something difficult, say gymnastics, I would say I'm proud of her, but I don't mean that I think her accomplishments reflect my fantastic parenting abilities. Perhaps I'm proud incorrectly, but I think it is a common usuage. |
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realmeanmotorscutor
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1764 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2003 : 10:33:51
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In that instance, darwin, I'd say you would be correct in being proud. That's an achievment on your daughters part that you can be proud of. You can also feel proud to have raised such a go-getting child. Pride has its place is all I'm saying.
Sorry for being so inarticulate right now, I have the most pounding headache imaginable.
Semper ubi sub ubi. |
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realmeanmotorscutor
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1764 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2003 : 17:27:01
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BTW apl, I really think you should give Hedwig a chance. I usually hate musicals too but this and JC Superstar are fantastic.
Semper ubi sub ubi. |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2003 : 23:19:45
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| Very few people hate musicals as much as *me* (i hate the Muppet show's music...can't stand it..even the Simpson's shows where they break out in song) but Hedwig was very enjoyable for me... |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2003 : 09:43:28
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OK, maybe I'll check it out - I repect your opinions, so it's worth a try. I do sometimes like parodies of musicals, like when Moltar breaks into song "How do you solve a problem like Marieeeeeeee-EE!" (from Space Ghost C2C). My religion teacher in Catholic school - the one I used to fight with tooth and nail about original sin, etc., made us watch JC Superstar during a half-day. ugh. I was there for only one year. I enrolled out of curiosity. "Stupid me". hahaha
I watched "Priscilla Queen of the Desert" when it came out, and just didn't get it. I try, I try. |
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2003 : 09:46:14
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whatever, I love JCS!
Hedwig is super though. |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2003 : 10:05:07
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Sorry! I feel like such a boob - why don't I get it? And so many people like Broadway...I dunno. Guess I'm just a schlemeel. :(
Edited for spelling |
Edited by - apl4eris on 10/21/2003 10:05:43 |
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VoVat
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
9168 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2003 : 13:49:34
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I guess one thing about musicals is that, strictly speaking, they rarely make much sense. How often do normal people burst out into full-fledged song-and-dance routines?
-Nathan
And how does lemur's skin reflect the sea?
http://vovat.blogspot.com/ |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2003 : 14:01:01
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They don't really in musicals, it's just like we get to see inside their minds rather than having an aside and we get a feel for the emotion of what they're saying by setting it to music. And sometimes, important dialogue is set that way as well. As far as I'm concerned, it can't hurt to have some music in a play, but I understand that a lot of people find it cheesy or whatever.
I suppose that the main uniquity of Hedwig is that MOST of the songs are done in concerts so it's not people singing out of the context we're used to them singing in. And of course, it's different music than you might hear from Andrew Lloyd Webber...
"Join the Cult of Frank / And you'll be enlightened" |
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2003 : 14:07:58
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quote:
Originally posted by VoVat
I guess one thing about musicals is that, strictly speaking, they rarely make much sense. How often do normal people burst out into full-fledged song-and-dance routines?
-Nathan
And how does lemur's skin reflect the sea?
http://vovat.blogspot.com/
More often than you think actually, here's our own little Dean:
That's not true
It's never been
Now please don't say
Those words again.
I just can't sing
And I never dance
This commune of yours
Won't stand a chance!
<slow emotive bridge>
And slowly the wheel of time turns
Quickly when passion burns
Over its tracks as the soul yearns
And circular though we think we've learned.
<back to fast part>
And now you see
What you have done
You've started me singing
Now turn and run
<crescendo throughout>
It's not fair
It's not right
This song is
A dreadful sight
But please,
Let me sing AAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaagaaaaaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn.
<applause>
How dare you insinuate I break spontaneously into song and dance! |
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2003 : 14:12:25
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| Inspired by Fiddler on the Roof of course. |
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realmeanmotorscutor
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1764 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2003 : 14:21:34
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That's a good point CoF. The Hedwig songs are rock songs plain and simple.
JCS is amazing and I think it's cool that your Catholic teacher showed it to you - some Catholics find it heretical.
I hate musicals that attempt to put everything, including tiny phrases into song. Evita, for instance, tries to make itself an opera by having to speaking parts but "I muuu-st uuu-u-se the ba-a-th-rooooom noooooowww" just doesn't fucking work. I hate it so much!!!!
JCS, however, has no speaking parts but no sing-songy blurbs either. It's straight rock opera. All song.
Semper ubi sub ubi. |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2003 : 14:09:33
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Carolyn, I knew that song would become a hit. Seeing you post it is like hearing it on the radio. Except cool.
So there you have it. At least one person in this world does occasionally burst into song.
"Join the Cult of Frank / And you'll be enlightened" |
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