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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
 Posted - 08/26/2003 : 17:36:36
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I used to think she was kinda smart, but after reading this interview, i'm doubtful:
http://www.theonionavclub.com/current_feature1.html
quote:
O: Have you always just said what you thought, or did you develop that philosophy over time?
LP: I've always been like that. Maybe I was shyer before, and I wouldn't say what I thought.
Anyone know what that NY Times thing was about? |
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blackpurse
= Cult of Ray =
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2003 : 05:18:32
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I'm the wrong person to answer this. I have never seen what the BFD is about that whiny, spoiled, tone-deaf, where's-prince-charming rocknroll wannabe Liz Phair. (I keep hearing about all these girls who picked up guitars because of Liz Phair. Oh shit, now we're gonna have to hear a WHOLE ARMY of that mediocre guitar playing, flat singing, diary reading pseudopoetic crap when they save up enough money to buy a guitar -- and then be told how "groundbreaking" it is,with nobody challenging them to really become musicians because they can get away with "poor little quasifeminist me", thus self-fulfilling the "you play pretty good for a girl" stereotype.) I remember thinking, is it just me, and brought in Exile to work for a cubbie mate (who's got pretty good taste in music) who amazingly had never heard Phair's work, and upon hearing it, said "THIS is what the big deal is all about?"
The NYT article (I didn't follow the Onion link, it didn't work for some reason) is probably the one written by Megan O'Rourke, (for me, finally FINALLY, somebody in a major newspaper has the guts to call Phair for what she is -- hallaleujah!) and Phair replies with an embarassingly analogy to Chicken Little that reminds me of those perennial letters to the editor writers who think they're clever in their use of sarcasm, and to whom I usually think of replying "THIS is why you're not getting paid for your writing, dearie..."
I'll tell ya, I know I've dissed Kim Deal before, but when I listen to people rave about the supposed "greatness" of Liz Phair, I vomit and just the other day decided to give Title TK a chance, seeing as how it was a free offering in the 2 for 1 sale at Columbia House.
"Sacred cows make the best burgers!"
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Bartholomew
= Cult of Ray =
USA
344 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2003 : 06:06:23
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| It's really a sad thing to see, this new Liz Phair. I hate to use the term Sell-Out, but when I saw her a week or two ago on the Today Show playing some incredibly generic sounding song...tis a shame. |
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ramona
"FB Quote Mistress"
USA
3988 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2003 : 06:46:57
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| I have mixed feelings about it all. I am all for the "evolution of an artist" (see, Frank) but when the evolution leads them to crap, it is sad. EXILE IN GUYVILLE is still one of my all time faves though and it will continue to be. |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2003 : 10:30:56
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Aye, her new album is very 'generic'.
Wow Veronica - nice rant! =)
I really like whitechocolatespaceage, great songs and phenominal production in some spots..i was hoping for something more in that direction..ahh well. I was introduced to LP through this album, so i find EXILE a little rough around the edges, but i should prolly listen to it more. |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2003 : 11:07:34
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Just a few words in defense of Liz. blackpurse, sounds like there's a lot behind your opinion that has little to do with Liz or her music. At the time Exile must have seemed somewhat groundbreaking, especially in regard to honesty, attitude, and violation of taboo. Though I loved it from first listen, some acquaintances have gotten it only after a couple listens. I really don't get characterizing her as "whiny, spoiled, tone-deaf, ... wannabe ... quasifeminist". If anything it seems to me that it is what I think of as the standard model, women's rights feminists who are whiny and spoiled, whereas Liz is more independent and libertarian in her stance. Not to compare the two but do you also see Camille Paglia as quasifeminist?
I agree that the NYT response was immature and counterproductive, but the mainstream reviews were in general so venomous and vitriolic as to be unbelievable. I like the new album very much, though admittedly not as much as I do the first three albums. Though I would prefer she had stayed with the rawer production, to my ears and mind her material and performances are obviously of the same Liz I have long admired. The new album comes with a five track internet ep that features the rougher production values that I prefer, and the album tracks that Liz penned alone are up there with the rest of her catalog. The work with the Matrix was unfortunate and unnecessary but even that material has grown on me. Liz doesn't need songwriting help, at all. All she needs to do is trust herself and carry on, but if the collaborations and slickness help her sell more discs and make more money, good for her. There's still more than enough new true Liz material for those who get her. What I've done is burn a cdr of the Liz-penned stuff along with the internet ep and I've got a great new Liz disc.
I love Liz, and I hope she makes a lot of money. I think she wants to be independently wealthy, and while that achievement is wasted on most who seek it, in her case it would permit her to shine even more brightly in the world, doing more than justice to any rewards she receives. Seems like she's really got her head on right and says a lot which is on the mark, offering a still fresh perspective, saying things more conventional minds don't want to hear, and writing great songs.
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El Barto
= Song DB Master =
USA
4020 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2003 : 11:14:12
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Liz Phair is fucking hot. I know it's so macho to like, point out a female musicians looks or something, but man she's beautiful. And Title TK is fan-fucking-tastic. I would say it's my favorite album of 2002...and I'm not that big of a Breeders fan.
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FRANK BLACK SATAN WORKSHIP BLACK MASS |
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Chris Knight
= Cult of Ray =
USA
899 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2003 : 16:40:37
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I once checked out the Exile CD from the local college library, and I must say, I honestly don't know what the big fuss is about. I only listened to it once, and for all the world it sounded to me like a feminine, even more generic version of Pavement or some other schlocky indie band, with overly-blatant sexual connotations sprinkled on top. I dunno, maybe I should give it a second try?
(On a loosely related note: as much as I've eschewed Pavement in the past, I must say that Slanted & Enchanted, which a friend bought me for my b-day, is the most highly addictive album I've listened to in... ages!)
When the hell is Bravo gonna put Twin Peaks back on the air? |
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JamesM
= Cult of Ray =
308 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2003 : 20:52:40
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A music afficianado who seemingly dislikes Pavement as much as I do? Awesome.
-Jimmy M. |
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Brackish Girl
~ Soul Eater ~
Ireland
1750 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2003 : 06:55:28
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quote:
Originally posted by blackpurse
I'll tell ya, I know I've dissed Kim Deal before, but when I listen to people rave about the supposed "greatness" of Liz Phair, I vomit and just the other day decided to give Title TK a chance, seeing as how it was a free offering in the 2 for 1 sale at Columbia House.
heeeeeey!
that really got you back, didn't it?
-Jessie
"deep in ocean blues of absinthe..." |
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Brackish Girl
~ Soul Eater ~
Ireland
1750 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2003 : 06:59:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave Noisy
quote:
O: Have you always just said what you thought, or did you develop that philosophy over time?
LP: I've always been like that. Maybe I was shyer before, and I wouldn't say what I thought.
Anyone know what that NY Times thing was about?
i can hardly beleive that anyone would say that! was she kidding? i didn't read the rest of it, cos i don't really care for liz phair. i have exhile but thats it. i remeber buying it and the register guy was like "nice one! thats ones of my favourites!" i thought it would be great. but its only okay.
-Jessie
"deep in ocean blues of absinthe..." |
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Brackish Girl
~ Soul Eater ~
Ireland
1750 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2003 : 07:02:06
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*believe
*remember
-Jessie
"deep in ocean blues of absinthe..." |
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blackpurse
= Cult of Ray =
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2003 : 07:59:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Brackish Girl
quote:
Originally posted by blackpurse
I'll tell ya, I know I've dissed Kim Deal before, but when I listen to people rave about the supposed "greatness" of Liz Phair, I vomit and just the other day decided to give Title TK a chance, seeing as how it was a free offering in the 2 for 1 sale at Columbia House.
heeeeeey!
that really got you back, didn't it?
-Jessie
"deep in ocean blues of absinthe..."
I've learned to fess up quickly when eating crow. I still think Kim's overrated, but at least she's not trying to fool anybody with any kind of schtick. And when she decided to put out a pop record to make some money, I've never said that "Cannonball" didn't fit that bill perfectly. Kim can at least hold a tune. Now if she could only hold a band together, she'd be set.
"Sacred cows make the best burgers!"
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El Barto
= Song DB Master =
USA
4020 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2003 : 09:29:46
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For what it's worth, I believe Exile was on VH1's top 100 albums of all time.
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FRANK BLACK SATAN WORKSHIP BLACK MASS |
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blackpurse
= Cult of Ray =
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2003 : 11:07:19
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quote:
Originally posted by El Barto
For what it's worth, I believe Exile was on VH1's top 100 albums of all time.
Conspicious by its absence: any Pixies album. And I'd put anything Exene Cervenka ever touched on there. Between those two missing elements, (but the inclusion of the Jackson 5s ABC, which is pretty weak) that list is really worthless.
"Sacred cows make the best burgers!"
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5456 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2003 : 12:32:11
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quote:
Originally posted by blackpurse
quote:
Originally posted by El Barto
For what it's worth, I believe Exile was on VH1's top 100 albums of all time.
Conspicious by its absence: any Pixies album. And I'd put anything Exene Cervenka ever touched on there. Between those two missing elements, (but the inclusion of the Jackson 5s ABC, which is pretty weak) that list is really worthless.
"Sacred cows make the best burgers!"
Really? I love X, but I've never heard any of Exene's solo stuff (I have one of John Doe's albums and like it mildly). Can you recommend an album? Do I remember correctly that some of it is straight poetry? And did she do an album with the woman from Concrete Blonde? |
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Brackish Girl
~ Soul Eater ~
Ireland
1750 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2003 : 13:54:35
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quote:
Originally posted by blackpurse
Now if she could only hold a band together, she'd be set.
heh, true. but i was talking to their guitarist, richard presley(yes! he is somehow related to elvis) and the guys seem to be sticking around. kelley even sang with with their other band, FEAR.
-Jessie
"deep in ocean blues of absinthe..." |
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blackpurse
= Cult of Ray =
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2003 : 18:43:55
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin
quote:
Originally posted by blackpurse
quote:
Originally posted by El Barto
For what it's worth, I believe Exile was on VH1's top 100 albums of all time.
Conspicious by its absence: any Pixies album. And I'd put anything Exene Cervenka ever touched on there. Between those two missing elements, (but the inclusion of the Jackson 5s ABC, which is pretty weak) that list is really worthless.
"Sacred cows make the best burgers!"
Really? I love X, but I've never heard any of Exene's solo stuff (I have one of John Doe's albums and like it mildly). Can you recommend an album? Do I remember correctly that some of it is straight poetry? And did she do an album with the woman from Concrete Blonde?
Exene really does need X to shine as well as she does, I must admit. I think she did do something with Johnette Napolatino (sp?) but I haven't heard it and I probably should check it out, since I do love Johnette's voice and the late night danger it evokes. Exene did some really depressing stuff with Lydia Lunch, mostly poetry. I liked Exene's "Old Wives Tales", very melancholy country and she has that drunk barfly country voice. If you like Devils Workshop, you'll probably like Old Wives Tales. However, I must admit, her best work is with X -- and my favotire is "Under the Big Black Sun."
Also ridiculously absent from that list: Patti Smith's Horses. Exile but not Horses. Bullshit. And Patti continues to put out amazing record after amazing record. Of course, Patti isn't on VH1s roving list of house culture pundits (joining people like Mo Rocca et al), whereas you always see Liz ready to make a comment. I have to admit, Liz is a good pop culture vulture. Her commentary on the "I Love the 70s" is really fun and provides a articulate insight from a person who was probably just starting to get her period during that time frame.
"Sacred cows make the best burgers!"
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2003 : 19:31:53
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quote:
Originally posted by blackpurse
Exile but not Horses. Bullshit. And Patti continues to put out amazing record after amazing record. Of course, Patti isn't on VH1s roving list of house culture pundits (joining people like Mo Rocca et al), whereas you always see Liz ready to make a comment. I have to admit, Liz is a good pop culture vulture. Her commentary on the "I Love the 70s" is really fun and provides a articulate insight from a person who was probably just starting to get her period during that time frame.
This is about blackpurse, not Liz. |
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blackpurse
= Cult of Ray =
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2003 : 09:44:06
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Gee., sorry erebus, but it looks like you're pissed at me simply because I don't have the same unwavering devotion to LP as you do -- and that nothing, that's NOTHING can be said about her that is in any way negative (even if it's a positive comment on her articulate commentary) without it being "about" the speaker, not what is being said. I was simply answering a question put to me and mentioned some people who I believe covered the ground Phair covered earlier (and IMHO, better) than Phair, thus possibly contesting the "groundbreaking" argument that usually gets dragged out by people who loved Exile. I could easily make the argument that all your posts are about YOU, erebus, how YOU feel about her, how YOU hope she makes millions of dollars, how happy for her YOU would be if this latest album turned out to be a huge $$$$ for her. Whatever. I'm not alone in my "whats the BFD" attitude, not when there's a load of people out there who have been covering her ground for years. That's all I'm saying. I just don't get the BFD, and in all your fawning over her, you have failed to explain it to me, and others who don't "get it" either, preferring to lump us all into a category of clueless self-absorbed lunks who will never "get it" for we are not as wise as you, oh precious one.
Whatever. If you were to diss Exene, or Patti, or any of my hero(ines), I'd be, whatever, different taste, I guess. Or at least I'd make an attempt to try to make you understand what exactly it is about them that I admire so much, without trying to blame you for our disagreement on taste. In my rants about Kim Deal, others have taken that route, and actually, have articulately convinced me to give her more listens, which I have and while I'm not president of the Breeder's fan club, at least I have a good understanding of why people would want to be.
"Sacred cows make the best burgers!"
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2003 : 13:29:00
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quote:
Originally posted by blackpurse
Gee., sorry erebus, but it looks like you're pissed at me simply because I don't have the same unwavering devotion to LP as you do -- and that nothing, that's NOTHING can be said about her that is in any way negative (even if it's a positive comment on her articulate commentary) without it being "about" the speaker, not what is being said. I was simply answering a question put to me and mentioned some people who I believe covered the ground Phair covered earlier (and IMHO, better) than Phair, thus possibly contesting the "groundbreaking" argument that usually gets dragged out by people who loved Exile. I could easily make the argument that all your posts are about YOU, erebus, how YOU feel about her, how YOU hope she makes millions of dollars, how happy for her YOU would be if this latest album turned out to be a huge $$$$ for her. Whatever. I'm not alone in my "whats the BFD" attitude, not when there's a load of people out there who have been covering her ground for years. That's all I'm saying. I just don't get the BFD, and in all your fawning over her, you have failed to explain it to me, and others who don't "get it" either, preferring to lump us all into a category of clueless self-absorbed lunks who will never "get it" for we are not as wise as you, oh precious one.
Whatever. If you were to diss Exene, or Patti, or any of my hero(ines), I'd be, whatever, different taste, I guess. Or at least I'd make an attempt to try to make you understand what exactly it is about them that I admire so much, without trying to blame you for our disagreement on taste. In my rants about Kim Deal, others have taken that route, and actually, have articulately convinced me to give her more listens, which I have and while I'm not president of the Breeder's fan club, at least I have a good understanding of why people would want to be.
Thank you for the entertaining reply. Those of you monitoring over-reactions should take note of the above. I don't think anything I said warrants description as "pissed". You don't know whether my "devotion" wavers or not. And I didn't claim that anything said "in any way negative" is necessarily about the speaker. While its true, in a tautological sense, that any statement is at least in part about the speaker, I think that in the case of your posts here the stimuli can't justify the reaction. Regarding "groundbreaking", I must admit I missed out on the groundswell of the initial reception. I got into the album a couple years after its release, and since I don't often discuss it with others, or read about the collective reaction to it, I don't know much about the BFD. I simply like it as I experience it privately. Conversely, your reaction seems tied to larger societal issues. I don't know that I could explain the way I feel about Liz's music or why, mostly because verbally explaining my reaction to music has never come that easy for me. Much of it is her sense of melody, along with the frank female perspective on relationships. I can't say much by way of comparison with Patti Smith or Exene. While I like some of what Smith does, more of it simply strikes me unpleasantly, in the sense of assaulting my ears. And though I like X very much, I don't know about Exene's relative contributions. In both cases their politics push me away, though X less so. Having said that, I am sure I did not "lump" anybody "into a category of clueless self-absorbed lunks" for not "getting" what I "get". It would be an unjustified stretch to equate my use of the phrase "get it" with presumption on my part that I am wiser, better clued, or "precious". There are many other flavors of "get it". Might I suggest that once again you are imposing too much of yourself upon your interpretation of where I'm coming from?
In suggesting your reaction is more about you than about Liz I in no way meant "to blame you for our disagreement on taste". I do not recall "blaming" you or getting into issues of taste. Finally, given the overall vehemence of your response to my posts, I do feel justified in suspecting you're responding to more than what I said. If the response seems disproportionate to the apparent causes, perhaps not all the causes are apparent.
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2003 : 21:18:37
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| Come on you guys...just kiss Liz and make up. |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11690 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2003 : 21:38:05
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| Where's Maddonna when we need her? |
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Brackish Girl
~ Soul Eater ~
Ireland
1750 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2003 : 10:40:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Cult_Of_Frank
Where's Maddonna when we need her?
please don't conjure up that image again.
-Jessie
"deep in ocean blues of absinthe..." |
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TarTar
* Dog in the Sand *
1968 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2003 : 06:45:47
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eh, I like just about everything I've heard from Liz Phair, including the couple songs I've heard from the new album. I'd much rather hear those songs on the radio than any of the crap that I had to hear on the top 40 station that was played all the time at the job at worked this past summer. I only own Liz Phair's "Exile in Guyville" (just got it last week actually) but I've already come to think it's really great even though I haven't completely absorbed it yet.
As for Exene Cervanka, I saw her band the Original Sinners at a small coffeehouse here last year, and they were great live, except for Exene. Her vocals were low in the mix and she wanted it that way, probably because from what I could hear she wasn't particularly on vocally that night. She was being a complete bitch, too, and not in an intentionally bitchy punk way, but just a bitter old bitch. The crowd consisted mostly of late teens, early 20s boys and girls, and Exene seemed bothered by that. She made a few snide remarks about it, including asking, "Okay, how many people here saw the Ramones live? Show of hands?" and only a few people raised their hands. It was like, Jesus, be glad we're seeing you live, bitch! They played a very short show and then Exene just dropped the mic and got off stage. I liked the music enough to buy the CD, and her vocals are much better on that, and the lyrics are good. Kim, the bass player, made up for Exene's shitty behavior by being really cheery on stage and really nice when I talked to her after the show. Exene didn't seem to want to speak to anyone, just sat at the merchandise table frowning while the bands' ex-Ozzy roadie-looking roadie handed took care of handing out CDs. I talked with Exene for a second. It was a forgettable exchange, but she did smile distantly, and at that moment I saw human and realized she was just in a bad mood. I think. It left me with a rather bad association with X. |
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interloper
= Cult of Ray =
440 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2003 : 15:47:10
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My girlfriend heard pieces of the new Liz Phair and said that she thought that Britney had hired a lackluster rock band. I can't agree more. Besides, in the particular genre, no one lays down the rock like PJ HARVEY. "Rid of Me" lays waste to Liz Phair's entire career. I know Im making unfounded comparisons, but what the hell.
"Oh shit, now we're gonna have to hear a WHOLE ARMY of that mediocre guitar playing, flat singing, diary reading pseudopoetic crap when they save up enough money to buy a guitar -- and then be told how "groundbreaking" it is, with nobody challenging them to really become musicians because they can get away with "poor little quasifeminist me", thus self-fulfilling the "you play pretty good for a girl" stereotype.
I partly agree with this. Seems to me that there is a non-musical schtick attached to Liz whether or not she intended it to be so (even though posing practically naked, and having song titles like "hot white cum" are actions that cetainly make it seem intentional and childishly obvious). However, I can't agree more with Blackpurse's sentiment that standards get lower and lower, and similtaneously more awarded. It's all marketing, that's all. It's silly. Music being an image based thing, in itself is absolutely deplorable, if you really like music that is. For god sake, Frank is fat and bald, and THE MOST UNDERRATED ROCK SONGWRITER IN AMERICAN HISTORY. I remember even ol' Kurt Cobain had a great quote somewhere where he said something to the effect of probably only about 25 percent of music fans actually like music. I can't agree more. Social commentary, music, art, they are all seperate things. The minute people stop referring to rock musicians (and especially rap musicians) as "artists", then I think we'll get back on track. Anyone who overthinks what they do musically is a dork, and any admirable musician will shun the term "artist" and the temptation to overanylyze whatever it is that they do. Watch the Bob Dylan "don't look back" video. It's fantastic. In all of the interviews all the people are seemingly asking him about every nuance of his words, and everytime he looks at them like they are retarted. A kind of "what do you want from me" response comes from him every time.
Anyway, to hell with Liz, all of you should go buy "Rid of Me".
Thank you and good night.
"If you don't like my potatoes, please don't dig up my vine" - Elmore James |
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TarTar
* Dog in the Sand *
1968 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2003 : 17:46:00
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| You're perfect for Frank Black's music if you don't want music that is overly thought out. I mean, look at the latter half of Black Letter Days, it's a mess of songs that seem incomplete, it almost reminds me of those Guided By Voices albums were it's just one snippet of a song to the next. To show you that I'm not critisizing this approach to songwriting, I enjoy just about every song on Black Letter Days, as well as like Guided By Voices, though mainly for Bee Thousand. |
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interloper
= Cult of Ray =
440 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2003 : 05:21:36
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quote:
Originally posted by TarTar
You're perfect for Frank Black's music if you don't want music that is overly thought out. I mean, look at the latter half of Black Letter Days, it's a mess of songs that seem incomplete, it almost reminds me of those Guided By Voices albums were it's just one snippet of a song to the next. To show you that I'm not critisizing this approach to songwriting, I enjoy just about every song on Black Letter Days, as well as like Guided By Voices, though mainly for Bee Thousand.
Amen bro. Pollard wins at not overthinking his tunes. You can tell he spits out three or four a day and doesn't look back. I can say that even as sick of hearing about them from living in their town all my life.
"If you don't like my potatoes, please don't dig up my vine" - Elmore James |
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blackpurse
= Cult of Ray =
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2003 : 10:28:12
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quote:
Originally posted by interloper
[br Besides, in the particular genre, no one lays down the rock like PJ HARVEY. "Rid of Me" lays waste to Liz Phair's entire career. I know Im making unfounded comparisons, but what the hell.
"Rid of Me" more eleoquently caputres what I think Phair was going for. I like parts of "Rid of Me", but it came out at a time when I was sick of Angry Woman syndrome. Yet, "Rid of Me" rocks. Right now I can't get over the beauty of "Stories from the city..." -- its so varied and mature, exactly the kind of thing most musicians would be afraid to release. Polly Jean Harvey lays waste to a whole load of "musical" careers. I can't believe I forgot about her when this topic first got discussed. Maybe its because when somebody says "Liz Phair", the magnificent PJ Harvey is the last image that pops into my mind!!!
"Sacred cows make the best burgers!" |
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