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stephensolo
- FB Fan -
41 Posts |
 Posted - 07/25/2003 : 14:19:20
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i feel bad even writing this post, but after listening to Show Me Your Tears i feel i can honestly say i think the catholics are holding frank back. HEAR ME OUT. first of all, i've seen frank and the c's live a bunch of times , have even talked to most of them. they are great guys each one and they make for a great live act. THAT SAID - on record, they are a weakness. the catholics are essentially a group of session men - they learn fast. but they lack the kind of creative musical input that frank used to get on his records. We all know joey santiago wasn't a super skilled guitarist - but his creative lines and original ideas were such good additions to the songs. just think of all those joey riffs we know by heart. how many of rich gilbert's parts can be called memorable? one or two moments come to mind for me - that's it. this is not a pixies vs. catholics thing either - his early solo work w/ e.d. feldmen, nick vincent, and lyle workman was really inspired - you could hear their creativity pushing frank in interesting directions. i'm wondering what everyone thinks about this - honestly. Listen to the solos and outros of the new material - whenever a catholic is given a few bars to play with it comes off bland - it drags on too long - the parts aren't memorable. the solos rarely even match up with the song tonally. the songs become weak.
i know the 2 track method is partly to blame for this. as is frank. for whatever reason, he no longer looks to make the songs 'as short as they need to be - no longer'. but i would love to hear him record with some really talented musicians with ideas when in studio.
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FranknWeezer
= Cult of Ray =
USA
356 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2003 : 14:42:38
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Interesting take. I've been satisfied fully with the last 5 albums (w/ Catholics), but you may have a valid point. I love the catholics live, but I'll hold off deciding until I hear SMYT.
-FranknWeezer |
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Omer
= Cult of Ray =
275 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2003 : 15:13:09
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| Lots of memorable moments come in mind: the guitar solo in 'How you went so far', the acoustic guitar in 'Velvety', the noisy intro too 'His Kingly Cave', the keyboards on 'Robert Onion', and all of 'Blast Off', just to name a few... |
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d3niz3n
- FB Fan -
Canada
75 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2003 : 15:34:08
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| rich gilbert is a not just a session man. this guy has done extremely innovative/creative music for over the last 20 years. i can't speak for the other members of the catholics, but rich gilbert is not holding frank back in my mind. for me at least, there are memorable moments throughout pistolero. if still in doubt, check out rich gilbet's latest adventure with judithann and slim cessna, the blackstone valley sinners. just my thoughts. |
Edited by - d3niz3n on 07/25/2003 15:35:00 |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2003 : 15:38:28
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| I would love to see Eric producing again, let me tell you... |
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stephensolo
- FB Fan -
41 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2003 : 15:44:04
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omer - think about this though, the lead work on His Kingly Cave i believe is Joey's. Velvety's acoustics are all frank. not too mention that's actually an old pixies song. as for robert - i agree - an example (though increasingly rare one) of Eric drew doing some nice work.
i shouldn't label rich as a session man - he's been in a lot of bands. but his style on the recordings really irks me. i agree, he shines on pistolero - a record that closley matched his style: off the cuff and intense on the verge of losing control. so maybe it's just that rich's playing doesnt fit with the newer suff. |
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wepeel
- FB Fan -
USA
86 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2003 : 15:48:51
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I agree with what you have to say. I guess some people aren't as creative as others..
The Catholics are great and all, but you have a point.
=wepeel |
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ProverbialCereal
- FB TabMaster -
USA
2953 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2003 : 17:42:05
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Weird, because I was just listening to a song on Show Me Your Tears and I was gonna post a message saying how I love that there aren't many Rich Gilbert-esque guitar fills at all in the song. It's the one like "and that's the souuund." It's a cool song with an awesome vocal melody and basically just a solo as far as guitar fills go. And the solo is really good (probably Dave Philips. heh). I think your beef against the Catholics is more against Rich Gilbert, which is understandable. I think he has gotten better, but, damn, he needs to incorporate more "memorable melody" into his fills/solos. I think if Frank recorded multitrack again, Rich Gilbert's solos might sound better.
-Derek |
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ProverbialCereal
- FB TabMaster -
USA
2953 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2003 : 19:12:13
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This is what the new Catholics lineup will be:
Art Garfunkel: background vocals and background vocals.
John Tesh: keyboards and string arrangements
Meg White: Drums
Kenny G: soprano saxophone
Since Meg White is in the band, it might be awkward for her to play with a bassist, so there wont be a bassist in the new Catholics.
What do you mean "do i have alot of time on my hands?"?
-Derek |
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mereubu
= FB QuizMistress =
USA
2677 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2003 : 19:39:48
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John Tesh's eyes keep following me. Quit it!
I can't believe all this heretical Catholic-bashing. Fire up the bar-b-q! |
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wepeel
- FB Fan -
USA
86 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2003 : 19:55:13
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since meg white is in, they'll get mtv airplay.
=wepeel |
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mun chien andalusia
= Quote Accumulator =
Italy
2139 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2003 : 20:19:54
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I agree with stephensolo...Sad but true...Frank Black with the catholics is evolving to a not so original countrish sound...I didn't enjoy that much BLD or DW and SMYT didn't make it any better...Nice songs and all but they luck of that special something that made TOTY and COR really great rock albums...I don't know who's "fault?" is it but i miss the old Rock sound...
www.munchienandalusia.too.it |
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El Barto
= Song DB Master =
USA
4020 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2003 : 21:20:36
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Who's going to keep the rhythm in the new Catholics?
---------
FRANK BLACK SATAN WORKSHIP BLACK MASS |
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miguel
- FB Fan -
USA
213 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2003 : 00:52:49
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I agree with you, mun chien andulusia, 100%. I mean, he set a pretty high bar for himself in my opinion with his early stuff. I liked him for rock not country but, I've followed him always hoping in the back of my mind that he would get out of this phase and conquer something else. To me.. no offense to anyone.. but BLD is a paper weight. I do like jet black river though.
www.namjunerobot.com |
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cindy lou
- FB Fan -
141 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2003 : 02:32:06
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Stuart
- The Clopser -
China
2291 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2003 : 03:47:15
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Ive never heard so many mixed reviews for an album, some people are saying it is Franks masterpiece and people on this topic are saying that maybe Frank should move away from the Catholics.
Personally I rate the Catholics as evens with the Pixies, I love the music that Frank has created with this band. BLD and DW (strictly not a Catholics album), although at first didn't seem as strong as previous FB releases, have become two of my favorite FB albums. The fact that I didn't remove BLD & DW from my MD for about three months shows that they are very good albums.
I have not heard the new album yet, but just remembering the three awesome live gigs I have been to makes me think that it would be a shame for Frank to abandon the Catholics.
It would be cool if maybe he did what Neil Young does, releasing albums sometimes with different bands, but never actually breaking up the Catholics.
War....... Its not fantastic |
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ivandivel
= Cult of Ray =
394 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2003 : 07:07:33
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| The way I see it - all albums are ultimately mr. Black's responsibility. If he likes it - good for him. If you don't - don't buy the album. I remember some old interview with him while he was in the pixies. He said that he feelt no responsibilty for the audience. And the audience should feel no responsibilty to him. Does anyone honestly believe that his records would be better if he made them according to what, for instance, this forum would like? People change, it's the norm. Thus the music will change too. |
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stephensolo
- FB Fan -
41 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2003 : 07:39:51
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| that's perhaps the best point. it's frank's wishes to do what he's doing on record -it's no one else's fault. but that doesn't mean his fans can't chime in and say "we'd like a change". i'm very torn on the issue since frank and his first band are my top musical influence. i want to like whatever he does - i think sometimes that clouds my judgement. everytime it seems i play newer fb & the c's material for friends who don't follow them their reaction is typically the same - "what happened to frank?" i.e. where's the energy and edge? i explain to them how he's exploring new methods and some of the songs are beautiful - which they are. BUT that said, ask yourself this question as i recently have: if i never followed frank black up til now and somebody let me borrow DW or SMYT or DITS, what would i think of it? Sadly i think i would ignore them after a couple of listens - too ordinary. since i know it's frank i give the records so much extra time to sink in and it's usually worth it. but i have to admit - on record - it's all very Tame. |
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Johnny Horton
- FB Fan -
USA
14 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2003 : 08:43:15
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quote:
Originally posted by ProverbialCereal
This is what the new Catholics lineup will be:
Art Garfunkel: background vocals and background vocals.
John Tesh: keyboards and string arrangements
Meg White: Drums
Kenny G: soprano saxophone
-Derek
TabMaster this is the funniest goddamn thing I've seen all week!
Geddy Lee on Bass/backing vocals?
-Johnny |
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NimrodsSon
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1938 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2003 : 09:09:50
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| Dog In The Sand and Devils Workshop are like the two best albums ever, and I haven't heard SMYT yet, but I'm sure it will be right up there. So I guess I'm perfectly happy with the Catholics. I agree 100% with everything Ivandivel just said. It's what Frank wants to do, and if you don't like it, don't buy the records. Frank's stuff is definitely not as much pop as it used to be, but I like it how it is. Sometimes I'm in the mood to listen to his newer stuff, and sometimes his older stuff. The Catholics are definitely the most talented musicians he's worked with so far, and as far as Rich is concerned, he's a fucking awesome guitar player and his guitar solos are crazy, and that's exactly what I like. I couldn't care less if they're memorable. Kurt Cobain's solos are memorable because they require almost no talent to play. I mean, you don't find yourself humming those crazy Metallica solos from the early 80's are any of the Van Halen solos. You just know they're awesome. |
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stephensolo
- FB Fan -
41 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2003 : 09:17:29
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perfect example of my point - "goodbye lorraine" - this song is butchered by the band on smyt! a beautiful number - played way too fast with WAY out of place instrumental fills. it's as if they have no idea what to play in terms of fitting the emotional content of the song. this was so good live - what the F!@#$ happened!?
BTW - i think massif centrale is without question the jewel of the album. a tip of the cap to rich on this one - his solo is just right. |
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Brackish Girl
~ Soul Eater ~
Ireland
1750 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2003 : 15:27:24
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well, i'm not a big fan of the country sound but i don't mind it really cos, well frank is probably one of my favourite songwriters and singers so it makes up for any misgivings i feel on the part of the catholics. i realise the band are hugely talented(i couldnt do any of those guitar fills) but i don't know that much about guitar techniques etc so maybe i'm not getting the whole picture. sometimes i have to skip over solos if i aint in the mood for them, but knowing that it is all part of frank's plan gives me a lot more patience to listen to them. y'know waht i mean?
bored of the little comments. i guess i'll just have an actual signature. much shorter.
-Jessie |
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paintmeister
= Cult of Ray =
USA
347 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2003 : 18:16:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Brackish Girl
i'm not a big fan of the country sound but i don't mind it really cos, well frank is probably one of my favourite songwriters and singers
That's the same with me. I have learned that the country sound is not all that bad. It must be that nasally twang and ,at times, really pathetic lyrics that I can live without. |
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edward897
- FB Fan -
80 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2003 : 05:08:27
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I love the Catholics and I love the twang. As far a song tempo and guitar leads you know how they record, they play the songs a bunch of times then pick their favoite version and it goes on the record. The versions that you hear on the CD are what Frank wants them to be. When we get some live shows you'll get to hear all the songs harder and louder than the recorded versions.
If history is any indicator the band will give us a different sound within the next record or two. Be patient.
Ed
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the swimmer
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1602 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2003 : 13:49:29
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I think you all smoke crack.
The catholics, session men?
You all have no idea what it takes to do what they do. They are so good, you don't even notice it.
I know this is a forum and this is what "fans" do on a forum. So I won't get worked up about it.
I'll just laugh inside. |
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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Netherlands
6198 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2003 : 14:06:30
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I believe that they may have been session men
around cult of ray
but that they really clicked with eachother
If you see them nowadays you can't really say they are session men
They are just a band!
off topic:
The Kinks even wrote a song for their sessoin man (can't think of it's name, wasn't it something with Hopkins? or Anthony? Well It wasn't Anthony Hopkins anyway) who played harpischord on lot's of their songs. It's called Session Man and it's on Face to Face (great album)
''it's not a box, it's a submarine'' |
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Brackish Girl
~ Soul Eater ~
Ireland
1750 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2003 : 14:10:12
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well, i said they were hugely talented, and I for one never said anything about them being session men.
i just got to get this hard rock vibe out of me.
bored of the little comments. i guess i'll just have an actual signature. much shorter.
-Jessie |
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BLT
> Teenager of the Year <
South Sandwich Islands
4204 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2003 : 14:23:18
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| Some people bitch that the live-to-2-track is too raw, others complain that the Catholics are session men. How can Frank win? I'll tell you how: by not listening to silly opinions about his music. |
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Brackish Girl
~ Soul Eater ~
Ireland
1750 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2003 : 14:40:03
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i like the live to 2 track sound, you're talkin to a person who loves the production of title tk here.
bored of the little comments. i guess i'll just have an actual signature. much shorter.
-Jessie |
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NimrodsSon
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1938 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2003 : 14:56:06
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| That's right BLT, and thankfully, I don't think he does listen to our opinions. My opinion is that Frank should do whatever the Hell he wants and if people are gonna bitch about it, they just shouldn't buy his records |
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Brackish Girl
~ Soul Eater ~
Ireland
1750 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2003 : 15:12:47
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quote:
Originally posted by NimrodsSon
That's right BLT, and thankfully, I don't think he does listen to our opinions. My opinion is that Frank should do whatever the Hell he wants and if people are gonna bitch about it, they just shouldn't buy his records
too true.
-Jessie |
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thedude
- FB Fan -
USA
11 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2003 : 15:38:41
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stephensolo-just for the record, you should feel bad for starting this post. And stating that DITS is ordinary is just plain crazy talk.
I don't think you can comment on what the Catholics bring to the recordings because you don't have any idea what the songs are like when Frank brings them to the studio. From what I've heard, they are pretty rough ideas, or maybe the song totally takes place while they are jamming. In either case, my point is that unless you were in the studio, how can you make a call on what the guys contribute, creatively?
But you can have opinions on the final product and the live shows. My opinions are they are both fucking great and we are lucky to have them around.
And your comments about Goodbye Lorraine-What you hear on the record most likely was recorded BEFORE you saw the live version. So, what the $#%@ happened was they rocked it live, just like they rock Nadine live. I prefer the live version of Nadine over the version on SMYT, and its cool to see what happened to Nadine from the time of the sessions to the live shows.
I have to defend my boys! Especially Rich, he's amazing. Session men-ha! You should know by now that Frank is not going to be held back by anyone. |
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frank_black_francis
= Cult of Ray =
Canada
895 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2003 : 15:53:09
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| MIGHT IT HAVE OCCURED TO ANY ONE OF YOU THAT THEY MAY BE DOING EXACTLY WHAT FRANK HAS TOLD THEM TO DO?...........I WENT TO A DRUM WORKSHOP HELD BY CHAD SMITH AWHILE AGO WHERE HE TOLD A STORY ABOUT HOW HE WAS REALLY INTO PROGRESSIVE ROCK OF THE SEVENTIES (LIKE RUSH AND YES), AND HE PLAYED WITH A ROOTSY ROCK BAND AND HOW WHENEVER HE EXECUTED SOME ASTONISHING DRUM-BIT, THE REST OF THE BAND STOPPED PLAYING, AND LOKKED AT HIM AS IF HE WAS AN IDIOT........HE TOLD THIS STORY TO RELATE THE POINT THAT A BACK-UP BAND ARE THERE TO 'DO THEIR JOBS', NOT BLOW THE WORLD AWAY WITH ULTRA-CREATIVE PLAYING.....THE PIXIES WERE THE PIXIES, FRANK BLACK AND THE CATHOLICS ARE JUST THAT....."FRANK BLACK" AND THE CATHOLICS. I HEARD SHOW ME YOUR TEARS, I THINK IT IS GREAT, AND THE CATHOLICS ARE DOING THEIR "JOB" TO PERFECTION..... |
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ProverbialCereal
- FB TabMaster -
USA
2953 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2003 : 17:10:51
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That is a good point FBF, but it seems like Frank Black would leave a little room for the guys to improvise and pull stuff out of their own hats. I can't imagine Frank telling Scott, "no no, Scott, do this type of roll." I mean, "Bullet" is an example. In the beginning, after Scott does that roll, Frank says something like: "That's excellent how you do that scott. Drummer of 15 toms there." he doesn't say: "That's good Scotty Boy, that's excellent how you did what I told you to."
-Derek |
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mereubu
= FB QuizMistress =
USA
2677 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2003 : 18:49:38
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| I think SMYT is the Catholics' finest hour. I can't wait to hear this stuff live. |
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frank_black_francis
= Cult of Ray =
Canada
895 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2003 : 19:06:21
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quote:
Originally posted by ProverbialCereal
That is a good point FBF, but it seems like Frank Black would leave a little room for the guys to improvise and pull stuff out of their own hats. I can't imagine Frank telling Scott, "no no, Scott, do this type of roll." I mean, "Bullet" is an example. In the beginning, after Scott does that roll, Frank says something like: "That's excellent how you do that scott. Drummer of 15 toms there." he doesn't say: "That's good Scotty Boy, that's excellent how you did what I told you to."
-Derek
....of course he leaves room for them to pull stuff out of their own hats, but what we hear is what he wants us to hear, he's the "BOSS"....if you think, however, that scott or rich would insist on a particular way of playing, butt heads with him over it, and still have a job, you'd be wrong. there have been people (in the past) that have insisted on playing their way on a frank black record........and their names are mentioned in the sleeve with very little credit...and they haven't played with him since. |
Edited by - frank_black_francis on 07/27/2003 19:07:43 |
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