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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
 Posted - 07/11/2003 : 06:28:30
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| I suspect he's talking about guns... |
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Dallas
= Cult of Ray =
USA
725 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2003 : 07:33:43
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Look, there is so much hate from the left that nothing can penetrate it. Period. We will see how this turns out. Go back and read all fo the anti-US tirades in this thread and other war related topics and you will notice one thing missing. There are no serious ideas or solutions from the Lefty's. They are bankrupt and consumed with hate and envy. US propaganda? All the left has is propaganda. Just when was the left going to attempt to solve any of these issues? When would it be convenient to end human beings being placed into plastic shredders? Why didnt those Iraqi's suck it up????
Here is a great story from Iraq
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3055747.stm
This is the latest from Afghanistan:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/usatoday/20030708/ts_usatoday/5303924
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20030706/lo_kgtv/1685755
When you turn your brains over to people like Michael Moore or the BBC the results are obvious. Garbage in Garbage out. Keep convincing yourselves that Saddam being ousted is bad. THat the Taliban and all of the terrorist training camps in Afghanistan being gone is bad. That Israel and the PLO actually talking about a roadmap to peace, under a cease-fire is bad. That $15B in aid to Africa to fight aids is bad. Keep trying, meanwhile your political idealogy is being marginilized. Only the hard core left buys the crap that GWB is EVIL, man EVIL. Tony Blair is in on it too baby, the guy has horns. Bill Clinton and Koffi were helping Bush in '98, '99, 2000 with their pronouncements about WMD. Just what have the liberals ACCOMPLISHED in the last 50 years?
If any of these attempts at progress (and the book is out, changing the face of the world is dicey work) were led by any other nation than the US they would be applauded. It is simply envy that the US is the worlds lone superpower and fear of being marginilized by countries buckling under the weight of welfare programs that their aging societies cannot sustain for long.
I dont think the US is nirvana. Or that the US is the worlds savior. None of this could have been done or sustained by the US alone even with all of its wealth and power. That is the big lie behind all of this hegemony talk and unilateralist talk. |
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Scarla O
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
947 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2003 : 08:03:40
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What have the left done? Well history has tended to show that whenever any indigenous popular movement is born it is quickly put down by the US. The popular movements in Nicaragua and Central America were empowering their people, decentralizing power to small communities, but US sponsored death-squads came in and quickly put an end to that.
You talk about the Democrats as though they provide an alternative to the Republicans? George Bush is following broadly simlar policies as Bill Clinton but he doesn't have the charisma or the authority to get away with it (the only exception I can think of is perhaps Roosevelt).
You ask what the liberals have achieved in the last 50 years? Well if you look to the Scandinavian countries where they have had enduring social democratic governments you'll see countries that are considerably less fractured than the UK or the US.
I don't think that anyone in their right minds is sad to see the back of Hussain, the man clearly was a despot, however the responsibility of removing a despot lies, in my opinion, with the indigenous population. I'm sure you wouldn't be too happy if a foreign power invaded the United States and deposed Bush (for possessing weapons of mass destruction, for contravening UN law and the Geneva Convention on Human Rights).
Do you really think that all the anti-US sentiment currently doing the rounds is coming from unreconstructed Stalinist types?
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speedy_m
= Frankofile =
Canada
3581 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2003 : 08:22:15
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| It seems a bit myopic to paint people a bright Red if they happen to disagree with George W., Republicans, the American way of life, or Dallas personally. It IS possible to have an opinion that is contrary to populist conserative beleifs and NOT be a communist/socialsit/leftist/liberal/hippie/insert your negative politcal paradigm of choice. It seems to me that rational thinking will tell you there isn't an easy answer to any of the problems discussed in this thread, nor does extreme "leftism" or "rightism" provide any solid solutions. Getting bogged down in name-calling and finger pointing (either "you're a bleeding heart socialist!" or "you're a cruel, evil Republican!") solves nothing, and has little to do with the real suffering taking place in lands that are conveniently far enough away that we can comfortably sit back and do it. The right isn't all fascists, the left isn't all anarchists, we're all just human beings attempting to acheive (I hope) a common goal of a better future for EVERYONE. |
Edited by - speedy_m on 07/11/2003 08:23:42 |
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2003 : 08:23:53
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An economics prof of mine, 5 years ago, stated that he would be worried if Saddam fell from power as Iraq might be able to distribute more oil and then Alberta could be screwed b/c that is our bread and butter.
I also thought it was funny, cuz yesterday as I was driving home I saw a car that had one of those Jesus fish things (is there a name for those?), except it said Darwin instead of Jesus and the fish had legs growing out of it. |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2003 : 08:25:47
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Bankrupt? Consumed with hate and envy? No serious ideas? WE'RE victims of propoganda? Left? Do you really think that everyone who disagrees with you is a result of where they sit in the political spectrum? Why does it always come down to this EVIL left? I think that to be too far on either side is narrow-minded... there is no one all-encompassing ideology through which a golden rule can be applied to everything. Do I believe in public health care? Yes. Do I believe that government should be running businesses? No. What does that make me? I guess it doesn't matter, I'm a left-wing lunatic with a bunch of ideas that must be crazy because they don't line up with yours.
Do you really think CNN is objective news?
I've seen nothing but bashing people who disagree with you from you, Dallas, and a disturbing amount of closed-mindedness. If the US isn't the world's saviour, why does it keep getting it's nose into places where it does not belong. Is the world a better place without Sadam? Yes. That's not the point, the point is that the US and Britain had no right to go in there and do that. Would the world be a better place without Bush? A lot of people think so, myself included. But I imagine you would react unfavourably if I and my large military went in and 'liberated' you from him. Who made me judge, jury, and executioner? Nobody. That's the point. There was no UN backing, maybe instead of dismissing the rest of the world as left-wing Sadam fanatics you should think to yourself, "Why would otherwise well meaning people be opposed to this?" If you don't agree, that's your perogative, but if you don't try to understand, that's your ignorance. Maybe have a read of some of Erebus' posts - intellectual discussion as opposed to raging arguments and childish name calling.
Anti-US? Nope. I've got a lot of American friends, some right here on this board, and I know a lot of good people from there. A good country filled with good intentions that slowly falls into the hands of a handful of powerful people who think that Pax Americana and the new Rome is the answer to the world's ills, while Bush dangles by the strings. To say that unilaterally declaring war on someone would be applauded if done by another nation is bs and you know it. Last time Germany did that, seems to me that the rest of the world went to war while America sat back until pearl harbour woke you from your slumber.
Damned right wing fanatics. |
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Dallas
= Cult of Ray =
USA
725 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2003 : 08:53:20
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Again, still no solutions, just more name calling. I'll try not to continue as I keep presenting facts and get no responses other than nonsense about a new Rome, Bush is Gandhi, US is moral equivilant of Germany, etc.etc.
Comparing attacking the US and removing GWB to liberating Iraq is the strongest argument I could make about the lack of coherency in your arguments. Comparing the liberation of Iraq to Germany? What hyperbole. Keep it up, it further marginilizes your position.
I havent said anyone on the left was evil, those are the posts from people attacking GWB.
Still not one viable alternative to save oppressed peolpe in Afghanistan and Iraq. "Let em fend for themselves" is the attitude. Let Saddam gas the Kurds, commit genocide on the Souths muslims, torture any dissenter, if they cant defend themselves let the slaughter continue. 12 years and 16 resolutions of justification. Saddams own bloody signature on a cease fire agreement in 1991 that he violated with impunity. Firing on coalition planes who were protecting his citizens that he tried to exterminate, not once but into the thousands. Non-compliance with resolution 1441. The list goes on and on. Only George Galloway could call the Liberation of Iraq unprovoked or unjustified. But this is how far people will go to further there anti-Bush agenda. Saddam's torturous regime is preferable to a US/Brit led liberation. It is the death of credibility for the Left in the US.
The rest is really bluster. I'll keep waiting, still not one alternative solution. |
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Dallas
= Cult of Ray =
USA
725 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2003 : 09:11:13
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"The right isn't all fascists, the left isn't all anarchists, we're all just human beings attempting to acheive (I hope) a common goal of a better future for EVERYONE."
Speedy I definetely agree with the above. Many from the left support Bush in the war against terror. Many from the left have applauded his Aids initiative. Tony Blair is a self-described liberal and I think he has been an unbelievable leader in a time when it would have been much more expedient for him to join the chorus against liberation, etc.. I at least have an open mind that I can judge issue by issue and not by whoever is talking.
But there are many on the left who cant even give unqualified support for Aids relief for Gods sake because it came from the pen of GWB. That IMO is an idealogue, not an intellectual or a critical thinker.
Here is an example from the right, Ann Coulter, a hardline conservative who recently wrote the book 'Treason', recently couldnt answer the question "was JFK a traitor" with a simple 'No'. That kills her credibility. IMO the same credibility is lost by the left (dont take it personally people on this forum who have lined up to disagree with me) when they hoist placards comparing GWB to Hitler. Or liberating Iraq to Hitler invading Poland. By that thinking I guess the US INVADED France via Normandy. Where is the intellect in that?
Lastly, you guys are assuming I am some brain-washed Republican. I vote every 2 years for a Democrat Representative to the US House. For my entire life. Pretty close-minded of me huh? Open-mindedness is a 2 way street, so those casting that stone should go back and lock the doors to their glass houses. |
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St. Francis
= Cult of Ray =
Canada
548 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2003 : 09:58:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Dallas
Look, there is so much hate from the left that nothing can penetrate it. Go back and read all fo the anti-US tirades in this thread and other war related topics and you will notice one thing missing. There are no serious ideas or solutions from the Lefty's. They are bankrupt and consumed with hate and envy. US propaganda?
I love you dude... didn't hear a wimper as you spouted about Canada (our economy is crumbling because we are a bunch of socialists) and then I pointed out that you statements were miss informed to no responce... seems to be a similar case here... thanks buddy I was rather bored today...
Serious ideas and solutions cannot come from the Left when the United States are running any portion of the show. You should know this because there is no place for the left in US affairs since the Left aims at reforming the power structure and an inclusive veiw point adn this is foreign -traditionally- to the doctorine of US internal and external affairs.
The general media in the US (that for mass consumption... remeber we get your TV) is completely controlled by the right (how about Fox reporting W had won?) and also is used as a jump off point for issues like war... Media and Government is merging like never before, thus, showing the right in America and more spacifically government and industry is quite content spreading the Propaganda... where as the left has no organs of propaganda, well at least in your mainstream.
If a figure displays contradictory view it is this media that attacks them as it is an organ for the government there so you see there is a little something in this US propaganda idea.
I would also like to make the following point:
The Left cannot be consumed with envy for the right. What could the left envy about the right given it's reverse approach to society and economics? Had the left been Stalinistic perhaps you would have a case but I don't think the editors of the Guardian are Stalinist...in fact I think only a minority might be. Dude, the left isn't interested in the issues the right follows and consiquently envy can't come into the equation.
You point however that the left hates the right maybe true. Yet, systematically the right hates the left more in a historical sense...
Chile, in Africa, in central America.
quote:
Originally posted by Dallas
All the left has is propaganda. When you turn your brains over to people like Michael Moore or the BBC the results are obvious. Garbage in Garbage out.
Don't you want something to balance the news you get there? If not then where is the freedom often mentioned in you coverage, writing and society? Granted Michael Moore may have made errors in his coverage, many of the "Smoking Guns" in the Iraq issue have proved false. Fox and CNN were quick to run these stories without investigation all the BBC has done lately is point this out... the information was tampered with.
The BBC isn't an organ of the Left it is merely balanced reporting. I guess that is foreign at times in the Right dominated US network system.
quote:
Originally posted by Dallas
Keep convincing yourselves that Saddam being ousted is bad. THat the Taliban and all of the terrorist training camps in Afghanistan being gone is bad. That $15B in aid to Africa to fight aids is bad. Keep trying, meanwhile your political idealogy is being marginilized. Only the hard core left buys the crap that GWB is EVIL, man EVIL.
I don't think anyone thinks Saddam is good. The excuses for war were trumped up though and that is what the North American left (and general world) has a problem with.
As for Afghanstan, it was an exercise of in and out. The deals cut with war lords are falling apart and it is as volitile a situation as it was prior to the US and their allies going over. Couple that with a general with-draw of US soldiers and things will get ugly. Don't worry though because Canada is now cleaning it up for you.
The Afican thing is funny too. No money has gone (George announced this in January) over yet and it was George who blocked South Africa's desire to make generic AIDS medications in 2000/01 through an exercising anti-patient laws. So while this appears to be good the HUMANITARIAN side of the deal could have been taken care of earlier, it's just George and his industrialist buddies were not in a position to make cash off the deal. This aid will be tied believe me.
I don't know about the evil thing with George from the Left because it is easy to say something or someone is evil. I suppose the Left just believes politics should not be so contradictory. To be frank may of his policies are and appear to be window dressing to suit his and his rich friend's needs. Sorry, but, the apathy for African AIDS could be chaulked up to this too.
quote:
Originally posted by Dallas
Just what have the liberals ACCOMPLISHED in the last 50 years?
Human rights, informing the world on the negative cost for certain levels of development, Prague Spring, the emergance of a welfare state, the women's vote in several countries, regious and racial tolleration, alternative policies in policing (sadly mostly in Europe) free education in some places and a higher level of equality.
I could go on... what has the right accomplished that is on par with this?
quote:
Originally posted by Dallas
It is simply envy that the US is the worlds lone superpower and fear of being marginilized by countries buckling under the weight of welfare programs that their aging societies cannot sustain for long.
Welfare is not a bad thing. Welfare which has the poor working for Corporations under minimum wage is. The reason there is a buckle is dude to the fact that elietes in Welfare states want to chase the American ideal on earnings and that is it. It is a trend which will be reversed because double dig policies don't work and this is becommimg more and more prevelent.
America has the highest level of prisoners in the west but low social spending. The coralation is this: Welfare is Cut and the money goes into policing... Welfare states won't likely fall into this rediculas cycle. They will just reform the system away from the American logos as it is self defeating... will be a case of "whoa see what we were about to do?"
I don't know if the US system of working bang on in several areas... the absence of the left is not helping this.
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Edited by - St. Francis on 07/11/2003 10:06:54 |
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Dallas
= Cult of Ray =
USA
725 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2003 : 10:23:40
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St Francis I dont have the energy to reply to all of that...stuff
But, blaming the US for failed welfare policies of other nations is a bit of a reach wouldnt you say? US is guilty of everything and has accomplished nothing.
Foxnews was the only news outlet that would break the story that GWB had gotten a DWI 20 or 30 years ago. 2 days or so before the election and they broke that story. Rupert Murdoch supported and hosted fund raisers for Al Gore and gave big bucks to his campaign. Dont get me wrong, I am not defending Murdoch any more than I would Ted Turner. But, your not telling the whole story.
The South Africa Aids/meds issue began in Clintons term. The companies spent millions upon millions to develop drugs and dont think they can afford to give them away. I think it is a failing of all of the West that a real solution wasnt found sooner. Blaming that on GWB is wrong. Why didnt other nations step up and foot the bill for humanitarian reasons? The US surely should have participated had the UN agreed to pay for the drugs and allow the Companies to recoup some if not all of their investment. You know there is a reason why a private company developed those meds and not some Goverment agency. If the US refused an international effort to buy drugs for Aids in Africa I would protest it vehemently.
Its interesting, when the population in prisons went up, crime went down. Meanwhile society must continue to address the situations that fester crime. However, once the crime is commited the punishment should fit. I am against long sentences for non-violent crimes, specifically drug users. If you're humping 100 kilos of something over the border, thats a decent sized crime. Having 15 pot plants in your basement is not.
The left cant take credit for inventing 'human rights'. If that was so then the Iraq liberation could not be opposed. Who doesnt think that Saddam created a human rights nightmare that his people had no hope of emerging from on their own?
What else, hell yeah there are right wing idealogues. I gave an example of one in my last post. Pat Buchanan is a jackass and a borderline bigot for another.
Religious and racial tolerance? Not in the US. Strom Thurman ran for President as a Dixie-crat. Which was an offshoot of the Democratic Party. Even after running as a segragationist he was accepted back into the democratic party. Only after claiming to have made a complete turnaround on race (not my belief, his claim) did he join the republican party. Bill Clintons 'great mentor' as he called him, William Fulbright was a known and open racist democrat from Arkansas. Today, the US left is extremely anti-religion in its policies and tactics IMO.
Free education is a liberal position? First off there is no such thing as a free education, it is paid for by taxpayers or tariffs or whatever. Calling that a liberal accomplishment isnt even specious.
thats all I have energy for, at least for now |
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speedy_m
= Frankofile =
Canada
3581 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2003 : 10:34:20
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My (perhaps idealized, short sighted, easy) conclusion:
the left has done good, the right has done good.
the has done bad, the right had done bad.
Let's all move on and work towards "building a bridge to the future". Or whatever. Insert your own favourite politicians sound bite. |
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Dallas
= Cult of Ray =
USA
725 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2003 : 10:47:15
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| Speedy I am right on board and that post is an 'ender' for me. I agree 100%. Also, terms like Left/Right, that I/others use indiscriminately never get to the actual group we are talking about and thus too broad. No matter how the terms are intended, the reader interprets an irrationally broad brush. So, no common ground appears. I am GUILTY as hell of that, but, I really dont think ALL lefts/rights can be defined or lumped together so easily. The written word has limitations. |
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speedy_m
= Frankofile =
Canada
3581 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2003 : 11:02:10
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| Truce brother! Let us march on toward freedom. And other non-specific, blanket statements of a utopian future. |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2003 : 11:07:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Cult_Of_Frank
Maybe have a read of some of Erebus' posts - intellectual discussion as opposed to raging arguments and childish name calling.
Thanks COF but I don't think I deserve the distinction. In the past I've bee guilty of name calling myself, and I must admit it's difficult to resist doing the same on this thread.
Must say it is sad to see this thread degenerate as it has. I raised the DNA points as an example of how the assistance offered by the left can have consequences contrary to the intent, and that therefore there can be principled opposition to social welfare solutions in general.
In my opinion one of the few blessings from 9/11 is that subsequently the left, however you define it, seems increasingly engaged in a process of self-destruction, especially in regard to its credibility as a source of ideas and as a movement characterized by intellectual honesty. No, I will not be defending that opinion here. What's the point? It's distressing to think that this thread pretty accurately captures the tone of political debate everywhere these days. It's enough to make one wonder why anybody even gives a damn about what happens to the human race. After all, what are we but a bunch of sparrows fighting over bread crumbs? An interesting spectacle, for a while, but never of much import. Carry on Dallas. I'd say I'd cover you if only I knew how. Seems like we knock down the arguments but it's just water off the duck's back. |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2003 : 11:31:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Brackish Girl
are you asking people to trust georgie bush? i'm afraid if i did that i might be dead, among the 'trusting' soldiers of america and britain who haven't been lucky enouhg to survive in this 'just' war.
I was referring to the lack of trust for the gov't in general...like private corps have *ever* done anything to prove they're any more trustworthy.
I don't understand how you can trust someone who's sole purpose is to profit (ie, business), vs a public enterprise that at least has the potential and goal to place quality first..
Dubya has done nothing to earn the trust of anyone, as far as i can tell. And a lot to the opposite effect.. |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2003 : 11:33:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Scarla O
I'm sure you wouldn't be too happy if a foreign power invaded the United States and deposed Bush (for possessing weapons of mass destruction, for contravening UN law and the Geneva Convention on Human Rights).
lmao - no shit. Well said. |
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blackpurse
= Cult of Ray =
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2003 : 11:55:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave Noisy
quote:
Originally posted by Brackish Girl
are you asking people to trust georgie bush? i'm afraid if i did that i might be dead, among the 'trusting' soldiers of america and britain who haven't been lucky enouhg to survive in this 'just' war.
I was referring to the lack of trust for the gov't in general...like private corps have *ever* done anything to prove they're any more trustworthy.
I don't understand how you can trust someone who's sole purpose is to profit (ie, business), vs a public enterprise that at least has the potential and goal to place quality first..
Dubya has done nothing to earn the trust of anyone, as far as i can tell. And a lot to the opposite effect..
That's sort of my feeling as well. I don't trust private interests. Their mission statement is "to make money". Period. End of story. A governemnt's mission statement (at least in a supposed democratic society) is to "serve the people" -- ALL of them. When you have fundamentally different missions, you're going to have fundmentally different options.
I think somebody hit the nail on the head here earlier and said that we probably have the same goals in mind, but it really is a matter of choosing the right tool to do the job. The thing is, I'm not clear if we have even identified the overall goals clearly enough in order to forumlate a solution for them. I lean left of course, but I really do try to look at both perspectives (ro all perspectives). But my left leaning tends to be more humanistic in reasoning, and actually rather spiritual. No, mathematically social darwinism makes more sense, and yes things would be more efficient if we just let the poor and disenfranchised die off or used as slaves, to hell with health care. But there's a certain compassion that doesn't allow me to view it with the same analysis that looking at a business bottom line provides.
"Sacred cows make the best burgers!"
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evilheat
- FB Fan -
12 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2003 : 13:48:51
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mmmm, ya
on solution other than those I mentioned above (from the evil left!)
how about the allowing impoverished nations to manufacture generic drugs, saves them billions, saves millions of lifes......big Dallas mentioned pharmaceutical co's need to make cash, 99.9% of africans can't afford 1st world prices for drugs, so them manufacturing them, themselves makes no difference to profit margins etc (as long as they don't sell them internationally.....besides the fact that pharmaceuticals production companies are do make some sweat coin.
and as for GW sending some cash to africa, this fits with the cash that was promised at the g8 meeting in calgary last year, it's about the same amount, which is a tad short of the amount promised in the early 90's.......none of which has not been delivered...cash would be cool, but the thing is most of it is simply paying U.S. pharmaceutical companies for their drugs. This is not necessarily bad, but you could cut that amount in half if generic drugs were produced in Africa.
ya, and about the uneducated left/right. norway's consistently voted the top country to live in. them's a bunch of raving socialists, welfare state to the max. tourists pay $12 a beer madness. welfare states can work if the populace supports them. if people work to undermine them (whether corrupt leaders or random citizens), they fail. I'm sure crazy right wing countries can work well as well, I just can't think of any without a wide gap between the rich and the poor. |
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evilheat
- FB Fan -
12 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2003 : 13:52:35
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oops....in regards to the billions promised to africa by the U.S.
that should say "none of which has been delivered"
it's also funny to know that in terms of foriegn aid to gdp ratio the U.S. gives the lest of ALL industrialized countries. (I think it's about half the average)...and that includes billions of military funding to Israel and Columbia, both somewhat sketchy situtations in which no one needs more weapons. not cool. |
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Dallas
= Cult of Ray =
USA
725 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2003 : 14:10:45
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"it's also funny to know that in terms of foriegn aid to gdp ratio the U.S. gives the lest of ALL industrialized countries."
That is true but misleading. US does give more in raw $'s than any nation and the amount has increased about 20% since Bush took office. It does not include military aid, however. It covers economic, development and humanitarian aid. It does not include the billions/mth to stabilize Iraq for example. |
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Stuart
- The Clopser -
China
2291 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2003 : 19:52:08
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It seems as if the only people on this thread are willing to back Bush are Americans themselves, and not any other nationalities.... Don't you think that says something about Bush, and his government? I kind of think it speaks for itself, pretty much everyone outside of the US sees Bush as a blabbering baffoon and people are genuinely scared that such a man is in power of the most powerful country in the world.
The fact that news is coming out that the US are considering comissioning more nuclear weapons is even fucking scarier.... I am sure that if it happens there will be strong opposition from the rest of the world which as usual will be largely ignored by the US, who will go ahead and do what they want regardless of the opinions and concerns of the international community.
War....... Its not fantastic |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2003 : 22:16:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Stuart
It seems as if the only people on this thread are willing to back Bush are Americans themselves, and not any other nationalities.... Don't you think that says something about Bush, and his government?
To my mind it suggests that there may exist, at least among the young, a greater degree of diversity of thought in America than elsewhere. It also suggests that perhaps the propaganda machines around the world are more effective than those in the US. But then I remember to question these suggestions, given the small sample size and the disproportionate vitriol of all opposition to the momentum of the moment. |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2003 : 00:34:46
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quote:
Originally posted by speedy_m
Truce brother! Let us march on toward freedom. And other non-specific, blanket statements of a utopian future.
speedy, you're cracking me up :) |
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Stuart
- The Clopser -
China
2291 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2003 : 03:41:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
[brTo my mind it suggests that there may exist, at least among the young, a greater degree of diversity of thought in America than elsewhere. It also suggests that perhaps the propaganda machines around the world are more effective than those in the US. But then I remember to question these suggestions, given the small sample size and the disproportionate vitriol of all opposition to the momentum of the moment.
I take it you are joking?? I would strongly disagree with you about that one, especially Americans having greater diversity of thought than elsewhere. To me that is just the typical American way of thinking. In my opinion the American way of thought is far from diverse.
Also you mention that rest of the world has a greater propaganda machine because they question the behaviour of the U.S. and point out it's many many erroneous ways. Being in America maybe you are blind to the arrogance of the US, and the way it hypocritally tries to police / keep the rest of the world in check to suit its interests. I'd say that the rest of the world are less likely to be wrong about America, all those people in all those countries are more likely to have a more realistic view of the US than those in the US.
War....... Its not fantastic |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2003 : 09:29:50
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| Very good point Stuart...i don't even recall ever seeing a non-American supporting Bush. With the exception of a particular group of people in Isreal. And the Taliban a few years ago. Ooops. |
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BLT
> Teenager of the Year <
South Sandwich Islands
4204 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2003 : 10:50:22
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It's true that it's hard (maybe impossible) for many Americans to view the rest of the world objectively. How arrogant and short-sighted it is of these knuckleheads to think that the USA is the only place dreamers can achieve their goals. But we're told that since grammar school, and you start to believe any lie if it's repeated enough. Plus it's easier to hide behind a veil of corny nationalism than to admit what you've believed for most of your life is wrong.
But at the same time, you have to be fair and admit that there are few places in the world where an immigrant can arrive and benefit from the system like they do here. You want a melting pot? Come to LA or NY and take a look around. I'm not judging whether it's good or bad, but there are immigrants everywhere who (I assume) are living a somewhat better quality of life than they were in "the old country". I've known lots of them who appreciate the US far more than those of us who were born here.
And don't blame us for Bush. MOST OF US VOTED FOR ONE OF THE OTHER GUYS. |
Edited by - BLT on 07/12/2003 10:52:24 |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2003 : 15:56:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Stuart
quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
[brTo my mind it suggests that there may exist, at least among the young, a greater degree of diversity of thought in America than elsewhere. It also suggests that perhaps the propaganda machines around the world are more effective than those in the US. But then I remember to question these suggestions, given the small sample size and the disproportionate vitriol of all opposition to the momentum of the moment.
I take it you are joking?? I would strongly disagree with you about that one, especially Americans having greater diversity of thought than elsewhere. To me that is just the typical American way of thinking. In my opinion the American way of thought is far from diverse.
Also you mention that rest of the world has a greater propaganda machine because they question the behaviour of the U.S. and point out it's many many erroneous ways. Being in America maybe you are blind to the arrogance of the US, and the way it hypocritally tries to police / keep the rest of the world in check to suit its interests. I'd say that the rest of the world are less likely to be wrong about America, all those people in all those countries are more likely to have a more realistic view of the US than those in the US.
War....... Its not fantastic
No, not joking, though it can be pretty amusing debating with you guys. Not meaning to suggest that what I post is particularly valuable, but did you even pay attention when you read my post? You were noting the apparently monolithic non-American opposition to Bush, as though that demonstrates Bush must be the bad guy. It's an argument consisting of: "If we all agree we must be right". Since you were congratulating yourself on the uniformity of opposition opinion, I simply noted that this COULD be taken to suggest a lack of diversity, especially in comparison with the USA where both pro and con are more evident. Further, I suggested that this lack of diversity, which you yourself note and apparently applaud, COULD be taken as evidence of more successful inculcation of uniform opinion, in this case via a more successful propaganda machine. Make sense, right? Especially since Americans are assumed, again by almost all left-thinking non-Americans, to be the victims of our own such machine. You condemn our alleged lack of diversity of opinion but get to note your own as evidence that you must be right. How convenient. Having noted what your comments suggested to me, I then proceeded to dismiss those suggestions simply because the sample is too small to be of any scientific validity and because the sample is distorted due to the extent that the opposition always squawks the loudest. For example, it looks like the Iraqis hate us because those who do make the most noise. (We don't need to get into your "objective" BBC and Reuters reporters distorting the picture due to an eagerness to hear only that which confirms their own prejudices.) That is an unpacking of what I unambiguously said. Perhaps the ease with which you and yours managed to misunderstand says something about an inability to bring an open mind to perspectives that differ from your own. But that's just a suggestion, not an assertion. Get it? |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2003 : 16:27:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave Noisy
Very good point Stuart...i don't even recall ever seeing a non-American supporting Bush.
Yes, excellent point Stuart. Dave, sounds like you need to get out more. Reminds me of the New York journalist who exclaimed "Bush couldn't have won: everybody I know voted for Gore!" This example is frequently cited as support for contentions that the insular elite press is so far out of touch with middle America that it can no longer to be trusted to question its own narrow assumptions. As another example, on "Hardball", the American Chris Matthews' politics show, he asked Elizabeth Shogren of the Los Angeles Times newspaper whether she knew any female reporters who were not pro-abortion. She drew a blank, and he noted that he couldn't either.
Very good point Erebus. |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2003 : 22:03:05
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Huh?
(Shut up guys.) |
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ivandivel
= Cult of Ray =
394 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2003 : 04:37:24
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Ok, given that your president is George Bush, it is likely that any propaganda machinery outside the US would be smarter and more effective than anything under his command, thus Erebus would be right. However, since I do believe that the US has many very smart citizens, many of which work for Bush with lots and lots of money, the propaganda theory seems a little far fetched.
Second, I would like to know what Erebus means by claiming the us has a greater diversity of thought than anywhere else in the world. Correct me if i'm wrong, but as far as i know - there is hardly a "left" movent in the us at all - at least not represented in politics - or am i wrong? I'm no "leftie", the more left you go, the more they sound like extreme right, both seem brown in the end. But, the existence of such political movements must be considered a plus (both left and right), because they indicate that certain thoughts are allowed. And please, as long as you dismiss other people's claims with terms as "sample size", "validity" and "sample distortion", back your own claims with hard proof. Find a study (if you know how) that says something about diversity of thought in different countries/cultures. If not, I'll have to use the word "pseudo" again. |
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thalassocrat
- FB Fan -
United Kingdom
46 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2003 : 05:35:59
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quote:
Originally posted by BLT
I do, however, remain strongly in favor of shooting dead any threatening person who enters my house. No amount of naive idealism is going to change that.
Ever considered shooting him in the leg? You yanks are insane bloodlusty savages. |
Edited by - thalassocrat on 07/13/2003 05:37:11 |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2003 : 00:23:49
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Here's a great quote a friend sent me today:
We have become a Nazi monster in the eyes of the whole world -- a nation of bullies and bastards who would rather kill than live peacefully. We are not just Whores for power and oil, but killer whores with hate and fear in our hearts. We are human scum, and that is how history will judge us... No redeeming social value. Just whores. Get out of our way, or we'll kill you.
Well, shit on that dumbness. George W. Bush does not speak for me or my son or my mother or my friends or the people I respect in this world. We didn't vote for these cheap, greedy little killers who speak for America today -- and we will not vote for them again in 2002. Or 2004. Or ever.
Who does vote for these dishonest shitheads? Who among us can be happy and proud of having all this innocent blood on our hands? Who are these swine? These flag-sucking half-wits who get fleeced and fooled by stupid little rich kids like George Bush? They are the same ones who wanted to have Muhammad Ali locked up for refusing to kill "gooks". They speak for all that is cruel and stupid and vicious in the American character. They are racists and hate mongers among us -- they are the Ku Klux Klan. I piss down the throats of these Nazis. And I am too old to worry about whether they like it or not. Fuck them.
-Hunter S. Thompson |
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Stuart
- The Clopser -
China
2291 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2003 : 01:00:33
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The US have always been overly aggressive.... from the annialation of the Native Americans, and the wars on communism to the funding of terrorists who eventually came back to bite the US on the ass. What gets me is how we (the British) back the US so closely when it was only a few years ago that NORAID were funding Irish Terrorist groups against the British.
Erebus, it would interesting to hear your opinion on the US previously funding Bin Laden, and Saddam Hussein... etc etc.
I do bear in mind though that the Brits have a seriously tarnished history, to which I am not proud of.
War....... Its not fantastic |
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Scarla O
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
947 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2003 : 04:56:19
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Earlier on this page there is a discussion about the aid that the US offers to various countries. Is that aid like the 'reconstruction' aid being provided to Iraq? ...which has given 99% of the contracts to American firms?
Hmmm...US & UK: We'll sell you some weapons, we'll get slightly concerned that you have weapons so we'll level the land, then we'll let our boys get the contracts to rebuild what we just knocked down.
It's no wonder there were two Gulf Wars when the sound of cash registers is so deafening!
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lippincott
- FB Fan -
11 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2003 : 11:04:37
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Dallas,
the whole "lefties have no solutions argument" is absurd...you just haven't looked, no doubt because you are a conservative. as one small example check out the US Green Party Platform <http://www.gp.org/platform_index.html>. even pop-lefties like Micheal Moore and Eric Schloesser have well documented books on a variety of topics. (Also, buy an Adbusters magazine at your local corporate bookstore...it will surely make your blood boil, and its printed by Canadians too.)
A big problem with conservatives is that they use this logico-mathamatical rhetoric to make it seem like the only "common sense" thing to do in America is to maintain a status quo where big business, corporations and the wealthy recieve a disproportionate amount of power, resources, government services, and everything else. Then, they wrap it all up in a little patriotic, nationalistic, religious,"well-reasoned" package and sell it like McDonalds sells hamburgers...the guy who can buy the loudest mega-phone usually gets heard. The pop-left is often guilty of muckraking and sensationalism out of frustration...it takes a whole crowd of human voices to drown out the maniac with the megaphone. In any case, the core left is working all the time publishing, teaching (check the political affiliation of most university professors), voting and working to turn around centuries of social and political oppression by big business, corporations and the wealthy. |
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