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Ebb Vicious
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1162 Posts |
 Posted - 09/07/2003 : 08:59:13
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i've been thinking about it and the RIAA is constantly bitching about sales being down. we all know it's not because of piracy -- because downloading MP3s doesn't affect whether or not i'm going to buy a CD.
as silly and trite as it sounds i really do think the fact that MTV never plays videos anymore is a big part of why it sucks so bad. from what i understand -- i never actually sit and watch MTV -- when they do actually play any music it's always the same dozen or so songs by the same half-dozen "artists". and even then they don't play them all the way through. anybody actually watch and clarify?
the radio i know for a fact only plays the same dozen songs over and over.
the sad truth is that most people won't find music if it's not introduced to them through these two main sources. with both of them totally stagnant, people's exposure to music remains stagnant. they will only buy what they like of that little available.
M2 i guess offers slightly more in the way of variety but nobody watches it, a lot of people don't even have it available to them.
it's pretty obvious the monopolization of radio and the fact that there is no music left in MTV are the causes of poor CD sales.
is there any hope for a renaissance in popular music? is there any hope that GOOD albums will do well? not that it's ever really been the norm for the top albums to be any good but in the early 90s you at least had some good bands emerging and finding some success. right now there are a few good bands finding some sales but they haven't taken over. maybe we're at the mid to late eighties stage right now where there are really good bands but they are just too much for the average person.
i think even if a nirvana or pearl jam was out there it wouldn't find its audience because it wouldn't get exposure. |
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ProverbialCereal
- FB TabMaster -
USA
2953 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2003 : 09:57:27
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I hate that commercial for M2 shown on MTV, where the slogan at the end is (in so many words): "Now quit asking where the videos are," as in 'you should watch M2 to see videos.'
They must have made it because people complain that MTV doesn't show enough videos. But it's freaking true, and as you said, M2 is not available in some areas, and if it were it probably doesn't come in a standard cable package. Why not just change the name to RMTV (Rarely Music Television)? The music videos they do show suck 95% of the time anyway. What happened to MTV? I remember it being cool and seeing good videos. I probably don't like alot of those bands now, but at least they got me into rock music in general.
-Derek |
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El Barto
= Song DB Master =
USA
4020 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2003 : 10:07:33
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I think the closest we ever got to a musical renaissance was last year. I bought more new albums that were released last year than any other year in my life...good music was actually being promoted to an extent (you know, the whole garage rock revival). Now it's just gone down again. But you know, I never thought about it from that angle, that they only promote the same artists...it's true, man. And you know, they're promoted these horrible bands, and the people who likes these horrible bands are the people who are most likely to download and not buy. And they're not even really going for quantity over quality either...like you said, it's the same 15 bands.
They really need to ramp up their plans to market GOOD music. I think even the idiots (I HOPE) are starting to realize that they're being fed the "same band, different name" thing. Or maybe not...maybe we'll remain forever jaded. Maybe we don't even want our precious indie underground to go mainstream. I wouldn't...it wouldn't make me any happier knowing someone who loves Good Charlotte loves The Pixies as well. It would make me sick.
Yeah...so perhaps if radio and even MTV or M2 all had some sort of program like "The Indie Hour" where it showcased either unsigned bands or hot up and coming bands...every radio station would need this, and would need it in a realistic prime time spot, not 1AM like it's always been in the past. I guess it doesn't help that Clearchannel owns like, every radio station in the US...and see, here we go again, full circle. The entire music industry is owned by corporations. From radio down to ticket saids...It isn't even about quality or artistic integrity, it's about marketability and making money...it's hopeless, dude.
(I didn't use my favorite word here!)
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FRANK BLACK SATAN WORKSHIP BLACK MASS |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2003 : 13:05:15
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Moby has a really good take on it, imo:
http://www.moby.com/cms/viewdiary.asp?Diary_ID=1456&ViewType=Next
[Formatted for easier reading.. DN]
so the universal music group are lowering their cd prices by $3 in an attempt to get people to start buying cd's again.
it's a good idea, but it might be a case of too little, too late.
if anyone were asking me (and they're not, actually) i would advise the music business to do the following:
1-come up with a standardized platform for file-sharing that all of the labels would provide music to, but that would be owned by an independent 3rd party source.
something like the apple on-line store. when the record companies try to start their own on-line retail services they invariable become proprietary and greedy. at some point the record labels are going to have to realize that you can't expect people to pay a lot of money for something that they can get for free. so:
a-the price needs to come down
b-the value needs to increase
c-the product has to be easy to acquire.
2-sell cd's at two retail prices, kind of like hard-cover and paperback books. sell your basic cd for $5 or $6 with very minimal packaging, and sell an enhanced cd package for $15 that would include bonus discs and posters and free access to on-line material and discounts on concert tickets, etc. that way the casual consumer can buy a cd without it costing too much and the bigger fan can buy a more exciting and value-filled product for slightly more money.
3-stop spending insane amounts of money making records and videos.
the world doesn't need albums that cost more than $100,000 to make, and the world doesn't need videos that cost more than $50,000 to produce.
how much did it cost to make 'nevermind'? how much did the 'smells like teen spirit' video cost? expensive records and expensive videos are a waste of everyone's time and money. it's just insane that most 3 1/2 minute pop videos cost more than a 50 acre estate in north carolina.
4-stop putting out shitty records. people don't associate music with value because most record labels put out valueless music. and they know it. their goal is to get a single on the radio and then put out a crummy album that will sell on the strength of the single with no thought to artistry or artist development. they don't sign artists based on artistic merit, they sign artists if the artists look and sound like the other artists on radio and mtv, and that's a recipe for long-term musical and corporate disaster. if you consistently make a crummy product then at some point people will lose interest in you and your crummy product, and they certainly won't be willing to pay for your crummy product.
5-stop persecuting people who are music fans. people who engage in file-sharing are people who like music. you can't make people feel guilty about loving and listening to music. the record companies need to see people who engage in file-sharing as music fans and not as criminals. and then they need to try to convince people to spend a little bit of money for music (with added value) rather than downloading it for free.
record companies and rich musicians complaining about file-sharing rings terribly false with most people. i mean, how can a 14 year old who has an allowance of $5 a week feel bad about downloading music produced by multi-millionaire musicians and greedy record companies? the record companies should approach that 14 year old and say, 'hey, it's great that you love music, instead of downloading music for free why don't you try this very inexpensive service that will enable you to listen to a lot of music and also have access to unreleased tracks and ticket discounts and free merchandise?'
the record companies and the riaa have up until this point been like nero, fiddling while rome burned (or george bush, vacationing while the economy implodes...). the record companies are faced with an inescapable fact: the music business has changed and will continue to change. if the record companies can't change with the times then they will very quickly become obsolete.
whether that's a good or bad thing, it really is as simple as that.
thanks
moby |
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El Barto
= Song DB Master =
USA
4020 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2003 : 13:53:33
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Damn, he said it. Maybe he DOES have artistic integrity...but I'll always hate him for that Southside song. What a pile of shit.
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FRANK BLACK SATAN WORKSHIP BLACK MASS |
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ProverbialCereal
- FB TabMaster -
USA
2953 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2003 : 14:42:45
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That's a good read.
Half of the songs people download for free should not have to be bought by anyone because they are so terrible. Maybe alot of bands and record companies get mad when people get their music for free, because the bands and record companies know that it truly sucks. They figure they can't get a REAL, loyal fanbase that will support them financially because their music blows. Therefore their only potential sales can come from albums because no one would want to buy a shirt or see a concert of a shitty band. I think low-quality bands are just paranoid because they know they suck on toast and once someone gets a few songs for free, the band deep down inside figures "Why would someone want to buy this piece of trash album after sampling it?" C'mon, these bad bands who complain about free file sharing know they are ripping people off with their trash. If they were the consumer, they probably wouldn't buy their own CD.
Granted there are a few good musicians against file sharing.
-Derek |
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Ebb Vicious
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1162 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2003 : 20:12:36
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moby is a dumbass sometimes but he nailed a lot of points there.
but one of my main points was that the main channels through which people are exposed to music (MTV and radio) are totally monopolized and have no interest in exposing people to good music even if it is out there.
the ability to actually manufacture CDs is very easy right now. what is dificult is getting people exposed to the music.
M2 is insufficient. most of the "obscure" bands that get played are still major label bands, and most of them plain out suck. |
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vilainde
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Niue
7443 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2003 : 02:20:08
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Shit. I never thought I'd say that one day, but Moby's right on some points. Especially pt.2 which I think is a cool idea. Point 4 is stupid given that Moby himself puts out really shitty records, but it's just my opinion.
Denis |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2003 : 12:26:46
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Why do you guys keep referring to Moby in the negative? I've been reading his journal entries since the beginning, and i think he's pretty spot-on most of the time. He definitely comes off as more 'real' than any other musician i can think of..
I don't 'love' his music, but i wouldn't classify it as shitty either. |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2003 : 12:35:57
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| There's a difference between not liking one's music and not respecting it. I happen to like some of it, and he's done nothing to my knowledge to warrant my disrespect. I'm with Dave. |
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blackpurse
= Cult of Ray =
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2003 : 13:10:07
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I'm with dave and dean here as well. I actually like some of Moby's records, but I'm not a huge fan. I do note that Moby's writings are usually thoughtfully written, not strongarming, usually backed by facts. I don't agree with everything he says, but he's articulate and makes his case well.
And in the case of this topic, I agree 100% with him. He approaches this as the business case that it needs to be approached as for big $$$ to take it seriously.
"Sacred cows make the best burgers!"
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Ebb Vicious
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1162 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2003 : 14:43:54
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he's a christian and when he was just breaking out he made some really stupid comments about profanity in music. i don't remember any specific quotes, but he's said some really dumb shit in the past.
the quoted entry above is pretty good, but i still don't feel any urge to go read his journal, or anyone else's. |
Edited by - Ebb Vicious on 09/08/2003 14:44:18 |
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El Barto
= Song DB Master =
USA
4020 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2003 : 17:05:21
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What he says does make sense, but I don't really like his music. He has a good head on his shoulders, too bad he just can't use it to make good music, although the definition of good is arbitrary..
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FRANK BLACK SATAN WORKSHIP BLACK MASS |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2003 : 18:24:01
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heh..yeah, his original Xian views were bothersome. He's much more 'open' now, and i don't think he's preached on a single occasion in the last few years. I'm beyond holding his past against him at this point.
I really respect how he uses his album-liners..even tho i never cared for the religerous stuff, it's nice to see someone actually saying something, and not be afraid to put someone off.. Again, at least he's 'real'..very sincere and honest. Qualities that rarely appear in pop music. |
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Ebb Vicious
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1162 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2003 : 20:25:04
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meh i don't think "causes" are all that uncommon, or at least, they weren't until britney, et al took over.
for a while there everyone on MTV had at least one major cause they were championing.
if anything moby was a little late for that boat. |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2003 : 00:37:57
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| I dunno..looking at my CD shelf, Moby is about the only commercially-successful artist who has personal essays in the liner notes.. |
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blackpurse
= Cult of Ray =
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2003 : 06:10:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Ebb Vicious
he's a christian and when he was just breaking out he made some really stupid comments about profanity in music. i don't remember any specific quotes, but he's said some really dumb shit in the past.
the quoted entry above is pretty good, but i still don't feel any urge to go read his journal, or anyone else's.
Were his comments stupid, or did you just simply not agree with them?
"Sacred cows make the best burgers!"
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Ebb Vicious
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1162 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2003 : 14:25:07
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quote:
Originally posted by blackpurse
[brWere his comments stupid, or did you just simply not agree with them?
they were christian/anti-profanity related, so obviously both.
dave:
the reason only moby has those essays is that most artists have the talent to talk about their causes in the lyrics themselves. |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2003 : 15:59:07
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'most artists'...i think that's a little exaggerated..
Lately, it seems Moby is intent on happy/poppy/fun songs, so it doesn't make sense to weigh them down with heavly lyrics..or perhaps he feels they're better said as essays..whatever the reason, i'd still argue that Moby is way more articulate and progressive than most (yes most) musicians/artists. |
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Ebb Vicious
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1162 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2003 : 17:44:38
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well it depends how liberally you use the term artist. if i ever use it to referrence someone like justin timberlake, it will be in quotation marks.
i do think artists do put their messages in their music, if they have one. especially as i was saying before, back when every popular band or artist seemed to have a cause.
has moby ever had anything except poppy silly stuff? has his music ever had meaningful lyrics when it had lyrics at all? |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2003 : 22:49:36
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| I'm pretty sure stuff off the first two or three albums did. A lot more angry then...i'll have to give those albums a spin.. |
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glacial906
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1738 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2003 : 23:50:42
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I really like "Animal Rights." It was my first Moby album. (Of two.) "Play" was the other one. There were some decent songs off that one. I have a friend who has mentioned the fact that he likes some of Moby's music, but hates the guy himself because of the comments that he made in his CD-cover. I wonder why this angers people so..?
One thing I've noticed was that "techno" music is WAAAAAY different than much of the music that I've heard people mention on this forum. Much of has no lyrics. There would seem to be a different mindset going into it than there would be to produce something like SMYT. Although some of Moby's songs have had lyrics, many of them were simply a chorus sampled from somewhere else. I still look at it as just as valid a musical form as any other, but it is harder sometimes to make a verbal point. With techno, to me the point is not to convey a particular point, but to create a raw emotion. (Some techno is used for this purpose, but by no means all.) Give Underworld a spin. I can hear just as much love go into their music as FB's, but in SUCH a profoundly different way.
...i'm not black like barry white no i am white like frank black is... |
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glacial906
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1738 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2003 : 23:59:56
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quote:
Originally posted by ProverbialCereal
That's a good read.
Half of the songs people download for free should not have to be bought by anyone because they are so terrible. Maybe alot of bands and record companies get mad when people get their music for free, because the bands and record companies know that it truly sucks. They figure they can't get a REAL, loyal fanbase that will support them financially because their music blows. Therefore their only potential sales can come from albums because no one would want to buy a shirt or see a concert of a shitty band. I think low-quality bands are just paranoid because they know they suck on toast and once someone gets a few songs for free, the band deep down inside figures "Why would someone want to buy this piece of trash album after sampling it?" C'mon, these bad bands who complain about free file sharing know they are ripping people off with their trash. If they were the consumer, they probably wouldn't buy their own CD.
Granted there are a few good musicians against file sharing.
-Derek
Derek, you do a good job of seeing both sides of an issue.
Although I didn't buy multiple copies of Frank Black's new album, I sure as hell bought a real, valid copy and didn't just download a mismatched selection of songs from KaZaa...
Maybe the record companies will just have to get used to the new level of competition presented by P2P programs. If you can get the music for free, and still go out and buy a new release from a particular artist, that says something about that artist and his/her loayal fanbase. I sure as hell will support Frank & the Catholics as long as they come out with quality records like they have been for the past decade or so.
...i'm not black like barry white no i am white like frank black is... |
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miguel
- FB Fan -
USA
213 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2003 : 04:08:59
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I bought a copy of radiohead's amnesiac and it came in an actual mock libary book with art on each page, I love it, and you can't really pirate something like that. I agree with Moby on the enhanced idea completely.
Look at all the work that used to go into records. They were big, and had fold out sleeves and stuff, something worth collecting. How much did records, including jacket and sleeves etc. cost to make.. I wonder how it compares to the costs of creating of a cd today and I wonder how the profit margins differ.
He's also right on the money with the costs of making records. By chance, I saw the guy from Korn talking about how their last record cost in the millions to produce and they came out not even liking it themselves... that is a freaking crime.
All of commercialism is bloated beyond belief though.
Now, what's the deal with ticket master? I read that front seats could be going to the highest bidder? That just pisses me off.
So, how long has MTV sucked now?
There was a show called amp that I LOVED, but they canned it. It was on for an hour or so one night a week around midnight and had some of the coolest videos ever. Alot of the stuff seemed like video as an art form. Pop music has become this sick cliche.
Doesn't flooding the P2P's with fake songs work really well? Why don't they just keep doing that? I tried to find some Cafe Tacuba to hear what they were about and every single file I found was the same song looped.. It's too much of a pain in the ass to find stuff that way, nevermind a whole album.
The persecution of music fans is another good point. I just heard about 13 or 14 year old girl whose mom is being sued by the recording industry, I mean come on.. Her mom probably wouldn't have bought it for her anyway so what are they losing?
There should be a national boycott the music industry day with a big floats and balloons..
rant...over. |
Edited by - miguel on 09/10/2003 04:20:30 |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2003 : 08:36:31
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These fake files wouldn't be a problem if people would just DELETE THEM after they download them. But people keep them around for no good reason, and they spread like a virus. Which will be the next step... hire a hacker to surreptitiously (and with no offical connectins) put viruses into movies/music/whatever. Watch.
 "Join the Cult of Frank / And you'll be enlightened" |
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Steak n Sabre
* Dog in the Sand *
Uzbekistan
1013 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2003 : 11:23:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Cult_Of_Frank
These fake files wouldn't be a problem if people would just DELETE THEM after they download them. But people keep them around for no good reason, and they spread like a virus. Which will be the next step... hire a hacker to surreptitiously (and with no offical connectins) put viruses into movies/music/whatever. Watch.
I'm surprised this has not happened on a large scale already. (Insert major label name here) could spend half of what they pay their lawyers on a crack/hack team to take out every file sharing set-up on the net. Lets hope they dont wipe out everything else in the process.
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M Dub
- FB Fan -
1 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2003 : 11:51:43
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There is a great book about why the music industry is in the state that it's in. It's called "The Hitmen" and for the life of me I can't remember the authors name. It was written in the 80's, so file sharing isn't even an issue, but after reading this book it's pretty obvious that file sharing is not what has put the music industry in the crap hole that it is in today. Is anyone else familiar with this book? Very well written, and it details how organized crime is involved in the industry better than any other source I've found.
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2003 : 12:11:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Steak n Sabre
quote:
Originally posted by Cult_Of_Frank
These fake files wouldn't be a problem if people would just DELETE THEM after they download them. But people keep them around for no good reason, and they spread like a virus. Which will be the next step... hire a hacker to surreptitiously (and with no offical connectins) put viruses into movies/music/whatever. Watch.
I'm surprised this has not happened on a large scale already. (Insert major label name here) could spend half of what they pay their lawyers on a crack/hack team to take out every file sharing set-up on the net. Lets hope they dont wipe out everything else in the process.
Yay, I've got my first cult member! The only thing stopping them is probably the potential legal backlash for lost productivity, wiped out computers, important docs, etc. Not that I'm a lawyer, I don't know how well that would hold up, but they'd probably BOTH be guilty of something unless there were no concrete connections between the RIAA and the virus.
But they're probably done with these methods, now they've got a man in congress with connections who will just change legislation and then you'll have to do all your sharing, etc from a different country.
"Join the Cult of Frank / And you'll be enlightened" |
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El Barto
= Song DB Master =
USA
4020 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2003 : 12:20:44
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quote:
Which will be the next step... hire a hacker to surreptitiously (and with no offical connectins) put viruses into movies/music/whatever. Watch.
I think there was talk of a law to allow this...something like this...of course, the likelihood of something like this passing is VERY low, as it clearly destroys a person's privacy.
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FRANK BLACK SATAN WORKSHIP BLACK MASS |
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Ebb Vicious
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1162 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2003 : 15:49:03
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i wasn't meaning to slag on electronic music (i enjoy aphex twin, among others), or even music with non-meaningful lyrics -- or even crappy ones.
i was just pointing out that for moby to put a message in the liner notes rather than writing songs about what he wants to say is just evidence of his lack of talent.
it really takes little to no skill to create electronic music that's as simplistic as moby's. |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2003 : 18:48:42
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I don't think that it's possible to execute a virus from an MP3 (tho there was some sort of problem with the ID3 tags..)
Some other formats are more likely tho.. |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2003 : 18:55:19
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You are correct Dave, at least for now. I remember something about the ID3 tags, but ...
However, a lot of people don't know much about computers, and if they downloaded, oh, I don't know:
Britney Spears - I Want You (Give Me 10 Minutes).mp3.exe
they wouldn't know the difference. Especially since XP by default hides the extensions. My sister was dumb enough (she's 16, so I shouldn't be TOO hard on her) to install one of those Valentine's screensavers and she had like 16 viruses the next day now that there was a big gaping hole in our security. Luckily, I keep my system isolated and I managed to pull her off the network before it spread, but the point is that people fall for the most obvious crap you can imagine.
"Join the Cult of Frank / And you'll be enlightened" |
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Ebb Vicious
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1162 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2003 : 21:23:47
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there used to be a bug where the ID tags were not properly truncated in some programs -- who knows maybe some players still have this problem -- and it allowed for all kinds of nasty trickery.
in any case, yeah, what cult of frank said is the more common issue. |
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