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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
 Posted - 03/07/2003 : 13:14:46
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Can you imagine working for a company that has a little more than 500
employees and has the following statistics:
* 29 have been accused of spousal abuse
* 7 have been arrested for fraud
* 19 have been accused of writing bad checks
* 117 have directly or indirectly bankrupted at least 2 businesses
* 3 have done time for assault
* 71 cannot get a credit card due to bad credit
* 14 have been arrested on drug-related charges
* 8 have been arrested for shoplifting
* 21 are currently defendants in lawsuits
* 84 have been arrested for drunk driving in the last year
Can you guess which organization this is?
(Scroll Down for the answer)
It's the 535 members of the United States Congress. The same group of
idiots that crank out hundreds of new laws each year designed to keep
the rest of America in line. |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2003 : 13:40:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave Noisy
* 84 have been arrested for drunk driving in the last year
Do you have any sources for this, because I believe that there is no way 84 have been arrested for drunk driving in the past 12 or 15 months. And, if one statement is false, it calls into question all of the statements. |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2003 : 13:58:49
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dave, i love you brother, but frankly i'm sick and tired of all the U.S. bashing that comes from your way.
it's probably safe to say that most of the American members of this forum are critical of / not happy with our governmental policies.. so perhaps your bashing would be better suited in another forum.. like, for instance, usarules.net, or iloveunclesam.org...
if you want to point out what's wrong with the United States, you're kind of singing to the choir in my opinion..
and i agree with Darwin, some of those stats seem a bit ludicrous.
i been meanin' to get out of Hollywood. |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2003 : 18:22:54
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It's true..just a bit misleading:
http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/congressionalcriminals.htm
Summary of the eRumor
This email talks about an organization of more than 500 employees that has an array of spouse abusers, bad check artists, failures in business, shoplifters, and other criminals...and asks you to guess what organization it is. It then tells you that it is referring to the United States Congress.
The Truth
TruthOrFiction.com cannot vouch for every allegation in this email, but it is not fabricated. Although the eRumor that is circulated doesn't say it, these figures come from a series of articles by the website CAPITOL HILL BLUE (www.chblue.com).
Also, their research covers both present and past members of Congress, so the email is misleading in leaving the impression that the statistics are referring to the present Congress.
They are from the work of Capitol Hill Blue editor Jack Sharp, researcher Marilyn Crosslyn, and private Investigator James Hargill. In the articles, they don't document every instance of wrongdoing, but they claim to have it. |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2003 : 18:23:31
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| The drunk driving charges stem from 1998, according to some versions of this. |
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ProverbialCereal
- FB TabMaster -
USA
2953 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2003 : 18:25:04
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i got that FWD as an email years ago. I think that was the same day i got the one about Bill Gates giving away free money.
Derek |
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ProverbialCereal
- FB TabMaster -
USA
2953 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2003 : 18:51:43
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Random post not directed toward any specific somebody:
I'm tired of people bashing America and being so anti-government. Especially you bastards who live in this country. Sometimes people are so unappreciative of what they have. You people have shelter, cars, food whenever you desire, you can vote, you can where whatever you want, practice any religion, and even completely bash the President of our country. What if you lived in Iraq and bashed Saddam publicly? You think you'd live to see the next sunrise? So stop whining and have a little respect for the government which has sustained this country for years and has allowed us to be in the forunate positions we are in. You have no room to talk. Think of the people who were ruled by Hitler or numerous other dictators. You think they had it better than us? No, so stop complaining about this "terrible" country which "makes" you say the word "God" in the Pledge of Allegiance.
Some Americans are so busy coveting what they don't have, that they forget to appreciate what they do have. If you don't think you have enough freedom, get a Delorian and go back and experience living under Hitler. Then come back (God-willing if you have enough Plutonium), live in America, and we'll see if you keep bitching.
I don't know what sparked this. I'll probably read it later and wonder why i said some of the sentences i said. doh.
Alright alright, I'm going now. I'm bored, sorry.
Derek |
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Steak n Sabre
* Dog in the Sand *
Uzbekistan
1013 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2003 : 00:57:36
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Yes!!!... I knew I guessed right bfore I scrolled down!!!
Things are so much clearer at 3 am...
I'm just not to keen on this administrations motives for action. It all seems like a big media play to get the general US public to buy into anything they seem willing to do. I can't even read the headlines anymore because it's just a brainwash.... Will Saner Minds Prevail??? |
Edited by - Steak n Sabre on 03/08/2003 01:08:50 |
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Mellzah
- FB Fan -
63 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2003 : 01:31:06
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quote:
Originally posted by ProverbialCereal
I'm tired of people bashing America and being so anti-government. Especially you bastards who live in this country.
So your answer is mindless patriotism? Good plan! Why don't we all become more insular, make tasteless jokes about 'towelheads' and bomb the crap out of countries that obviously don't want to fight us! Just as long as we support the government in whatever they do, everything will be a o-tay!
And when the government starts taking away our rights, and we start living under martial law (don't think we're not close!) don't you dare start complaining, because whatever the government does is right and is in our best interests.
You think that someone like hitler came into power overnight? That the germans woke up one morning and it was like "Surprise everybody! I'm your new leader, and I can't wait to start exterminating a good deal of you, and making the rest go to war!"
Of course not. How does someone like Hitler come into power? Do you think maybe it has anything to do with people not speaking up for their rights and against their government? I sure do. |
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ProverbialCereal
- FB TabMaster -
USA
2953 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2003 : 10:26:29
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And what are these rights you speak of? People keep mentioning "oh all our rights will be taken away if we don't stand up!" Could you maybe name a few that you feel we might be stripped of?
Derek |
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JamesM
= Cult of Ray =
308 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2003 : 11:16:21
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Nice job, Mellzah. That was the most beautiful use of a Straw Man that I've ever seen.
-Jimmy M. |
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Mellzah
- FB Fan -
63 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2003 : 11:24:17
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| In order for it to be a Straw Man, part of my argument would have to be fallacious. |
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BLT
> Teenager of the Year <
South Sandwich Islands
4204 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2003 : 13:24:58
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quote:
Originally posted by ProverbialCereal
So stop whining and have a little respect for the government which has sustained this country for years and has allowed us to be in the forunate positions we are in. You have no room to talk.
Thanksgiving must be 365 days a year for you, man. I can't believe anyone would give the government credit for "sustaining this country". Don't you know the government is where you work when you can't get a real job?
If you truly like the road our government is taking us down, I say more power to you-- support them to the fullest. But if we genuinely disagree with bombing Iraq, can we voice our opinions? Or do we shut up and think about how wonderful it is we have over 100 TV channels to choose from? What if I don't like that the US Forest Service wants to log timber in Giant Sequoia National Monument? Can I speak up about that, or should I put a cork in it and be happy they'll leave trees standing somewhere else?
I found Dave's statistics at the Snopes urban legend reference pages. I think they have about as much credibility as a "Bill Gates is giving away money" email. Go here:
http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/outrage/congress.htm |
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El Barto
= Song DB Master =
USA
4020 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2003 : 13:48:16
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Damnit Derek, I really liked you...
I'm sick of people playing the "there are people who are less fortunate than you" card. It has to be one of the weakest arguments in existence. According to that logic, we are somehow supposed to lower our standard of living to more accomidate those less fortunate? Fuck no. Are we supposed to take a country (Iraq) and decide that "oh, these people deserve a better life," send our troops and money over there to make their life somewhat better? I don't have any solid statistics here, but what is the populatation of Iraq? How many people are suffering? Now compare that statistic to us here at home. Last I remember, this is the United States of America, not the United Countries of America. How about we start fixing our problems at home instead of turning our backs to it and pretending we're A-OK.
Furthermore, the "what if" and "would you rather have X as your leader" argument is just as weak. We DON'T have Hitler as our leader...sure, we feel sorry for those who suffered under his leadership (FACT: Hitler was VOTED INTO POWER via democracy, we didn't even fucking vote Bush in), but does that mean that we should just give up and be happy for our corrupt, lying government that we have? Yes, we have the right to vote and the right to stand up against our government, but how far does that right really go. Apparently, the anti-war movement, according to Bush, is just a "focus group." Fucking right, how many Americans oppose the war? Last I knew, the majority in a democracy wins. How's that for a focus group?
I'm not saying we shouldn't help others, nor am I saying "fuck the less fortunate," I'm saying we shouldn't adjust who we are or our style of living based on the least common denominator. This isn't communism. |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2003 : 14:23:20
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A few more points that i think are noteworthy:
* although Bush might not appear to be a dictator to the US, he most certainly is to Afghanistan and Iraq
* the US now requires special passports of people from Canada going to the US, IF they are from a middle-eastern background (imagine if we singled-out people from any ethnic group in the US coming to Canada..there would be hell to pay. Ahh well, double-standards make us appreciate it more when there aren't any, right?)
I don't think we're taking away from any of the good things (and people) in the US by recognizing what's wrong in the US.
It *is* important when people of the rest of the world think of the US as the Worldwide Bullies, not 'Land of the Free (to bomb your ass off)'.
The important part is to recognize this, and act on it.
Most of the world is shaking their heads and how the US and UK (Bush and Blair) are dealing with this. I'm not one to often say 'look what everyone else is saying', but i think it really applies here.
It's clear that the powers in these two countries want bloodshed in Iraq. It's clear most of the rest of the world doesn't want this, including great numbers within their borders. Again, i have YET to see a pro-war demonstration. I doubt it would draw 10's of thousands of people. Wonder why?
The US has proven it can't even manage itself, with record numbers of prisons, and people still starving in the street. How is this going to reflect on the rest of the world if their methods are applied?
$400 billion on the military. 10% of that budget could eliminate hunger and shelter problems for EVERY PERSON ON THE PLANET.
I don't think any of this can be ignored. |
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ProverbialCereal
- FB TabMaster -
USA
2953 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2003 : 14:39:24
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Ah where to start...
Jim you make some good points. I agree some of my arguments weren't that strong. And i'm not really sure who i was talking about in particular. I don't think we should lower our standards because we are "more fortunate" than others. I just think we should appreciate what we do have. I don't think the goverment is perfectly wonderful and we should thank them all the live long day, I'm just saying people always name the bad things the goverment has done and it's almost bias because they don't mention any good things it has done for our country. Yes, the government is corrupt in some ways, and it's made mistakes in the past, but is there ANY government in history that has been perfect? Probably not, because all governments are run my mankind, and mankind is full of flaws.
So my question is, and i'm not being defensive, how are we supposed to be a country run by the will of the people if some of you think we aren't? Is it possible for this whole country to vote on every issue that comes up? Wouldn't that be a bit monotonous? And what is the "will of the people"? What most people want? What everyone wants? It seems impossible to be precise about the will of the people. Some people don't even care about politics and some people are insane and ignorant about issues anyway.
So for anyone: if you think this government is so awful, what ways do you think it can be improved? And i'm not talking about a "stand up for your rights!" response. I'm saying, hypothetically, if you were in charge, what would you change in the US governemnt to make it any better?
Derek |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2003 : 17:59:56
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| Can we get back to the fact that the original post was factually wrong? Liberals, I being one myself, don't help their causes when they sow (or repeat) misinformation. |
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carsonwerner
= Cult of Ray =
USA
254 Posts |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2003 : 20:21:58
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thanks darwin..
indeed, the information is not true or misleading. it's false. that documentation does nothing to back up the claims. and what's even more pathetic is that even if those numbers were true (which they're not), presenting them like that is blatantly deceptive, not "a bit misleading" as kindly described above.. not mentioning that those numbers are supposed to represent ALL members of congress, past and present, would be QUITE a significant detail wouldn't it?
i agree with darwin. check your sources before you pass along groundbreaking facts about how bad the United States is (what else would you be posting about?) because it does weaken your argument.
or better yet (getting back to my initial post) maybe just lay off the anti-US posts for a while in general..
i can't speak for other Americans on the forum, but i'd be willing to bet that most of them have a healthy amount of skepticism towards the current administration. i sincerely doubt there are many die-hard Bush fans here. i also presume that most American Frank Black fans (like FB fans from around the world) are relatively intelligent, educated, generally well-meaning people who don't want to "bomb the asses off" everyone. you need to separate the american people from the Bush administration. remember, he didn't win the election by a landslide.. support for him and the current administration is radically split here.
i'm sure you'll counter with something to the effect that you do separate the American people and the Bush administration, and that your comments aren't meant to be taken personally..
but then my question is, what exactly are you hoping to achieve by consistently posting anti-US trivia here? who is all this vehemence aimed at?
because to me, you do seem to lump everything together under "the US does this" "the US does that".. it's not that cut and dry.
frankly, i just find it a bit tacky when people (who are not American) seem to think it's ok to sit there and openly bash.. constantly. yes, the US is fucked up in a lot of ways. but do you really think we need to hear it from you too? i assure you, we already get our fill.. the US is such an easy target.. try something a little more imaginative (like the Dutch for instance).
i mean, does it just make you feel good? the self-gratification of making snide remarks and feeling superior (since Canada is superior to the US in every way).. or are you actuallly just a passive-agressive America-hater? (on one hand claiming that you have nothing against the american people themselves, but actually secretly detesting them)..
i'm just trying to understand.
Floop
i been meanin' to get out of Hollywood. |
Edited by - floop on 03/08/2003 20:49:10 |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2003 : 20:45:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave Noisy
* the US now requires special passports of people from Canada going to the US, IF they are from a middle-eastern background
gee, i wonder why that is. hmmmm.
quote:
It's clear that the powers in these two countries want bloodshed in Iraq. It's clear most of the rest of the world doesn't want this, including great numbers within their borders. Again, i have YET to see a pro-war demonstration. I doubt it would draw 10's of thousands of people. Wonder why?
quess what. people are protesting the war here too.
again, there is a big difference between what the Bush administration wants and what the US population as a whole wants. stop feeding into this "the rest of the world vs. the US" mentality. it's not that simple.
i been meanin' to get out of Hollywood. |
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Visiting Sasquatch
= Cult of Ray =
USA
451 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2003 : 22:45:10
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin
Can we get back to the fact that the original post was factually wrong? Liberals, I being one myself, don't help their causes when they sow (or repeat) misinformation.
I'd be willing to bet that most of those lawbreaking lawmakers are Democrats. Hehe. BTW...I'm not Republican. |
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Visiting Sasquatch
= Cult of Ray =
USA
451 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2003 : 22:46:51
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Blame Canada - by M.A.C (Mothers Against Canada)
Times have changed, our kids are getting worse..
They won't obey their parents, they just want to fart and curse!
Should we blame the Government? Or Blame Society?
Or should we blame the images on TV?
No, Blame Canada! Blame Canada!
With all their beady little eyes, have packed their head so full of lies!
Blame Canada! Blame Canada!
We need to form a full assault, It's Canada's Fault!
Don't blame me, for my son Stan..
He saw the darn cartoon, and now he's off to join the clan!
And my boy Eric once had my picture on his shelf..
But now when he sees me, he tells me to fuck myself!
Well? Blame Canada! Blame Canada!
It seems that everything's gone wrong since Canada came along..
Blame Canada! Blame Canada!
They're not even a real country anyway.
My son could've been a doctor or a lawyer, rich and true..
Instead he burned up like a piggy on a Barbecue.
Should we blame the matches? Should we blame the fire?
Or the Doctors who allowed him to expire?
Heck no, Blame Canada! Blame Canada!
With their hockey hullabaloo, and that bitch Anne Murray, too!
Blame Canada! Shame on Canada..
The smut we must stop.. the trash we must smash..
The laugher and fun.. must all be undone..
We must blame them.. and cause a fuss..
before somebody thinks of blaming us! |
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Stuart
- The Clopser -
China
2291 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2003 : 23:41:59
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I cannot understand whats wrong with bashing the US government, the way they are behaving at the moment gives people justification to give them a good old verbal bashing..... and if people don't like it then thats tough luck...... you know freedom of speech and all. The British government are being as bad at the moment, so they are worthy of being verbally bashed as well. And if Americans, or other nationalities (other than Brits) want to give the British government constant abuse for the way they operate then so be it, you are perfectly entitled to your opinion..... I certainly don't give a fuck, as long as you are not aiming the abuse at me personally.
Unfortunately for American people, you have a government who consistently behave like international bullies, so I guess more abuse will be directed to your government than say, the British, Aussie, Canadian, or Spanish governments as the US is the first to push its weight around, rather that developing reasonable solutions to world issues.
I don't seriously think that people on this forum are 'passive-agressive America-haters' who hide behind US Government remarks..... thats a pretty unreasonable argument.
International Air Guitar Hitman |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2003 : 08:51:28
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Reply to Mr. Noisy and his ilk:
"* although Bush might not appear to be a dictator to the US, he most certainly is to Afghanistan and Iraq"
This is ridiculous. The Taliban was replaced because they refused to cooperate in the capture of Bin Laden. The Taliban and Saddam are the dictators. If the world had stood united against Saddam, rather than giving him comfort and encouragement, you would have the peace you purport to desire. Instead the peace movement stands culpable for whatever ensues.
"* It *is* important when people of the rest of the world think of the US as the Worldwide Bullies, not 'Land of the Free (to bomb your ass off)'."
The recent bombing has been done in Serbia, Afghanistan, and Iraq. If the leaders of these nations had behaved in a responsible manner, there would not have been any bombing. And if the Clintons and Carters so much beloved in the world had enacted foreign policies even remotely grounded in human nature, rather than years of neglect and naive optimism, none of this would have been necessary. What would things be like without the intervention of the oh so reprehensible American Bullies?
"Most of the world is shaking their heads and how the US and UK (Bush and Blair) are dealing with this. I'm not one to often say 'look what everyone else is saying', but i think it really applies here."
Puts me in mind of Buffalo Springfield's "For What It's Worth": "Mostly say hurray for our side." The international peace movement strikes me as consisting of so many mindless clones, marching in goose step against the Man, all the while hypocritically decrying what they perceive to be the propagandistic impact of American journalism upon the typical American. The European socialist nations seem like perpetual adolescents rebelling against Daddy, apparently terminally incapable of learning anything about the relationship of stability and power, despite having been recurrently devastated by unchecked power in the hands of true dictators and bullies. And don't even begin to liken their history to what is happening or might happen in the US in the near future.
"It's clear that the powers in these two countries want bloodshed in Iraq."
Again, ridiculous. Saddam has killed over a million of his own people, but, no, that's not why Saddam must go. And it's not for oil either. It's just a step in the war against terror. Nations like Iraq, North Korea, China, Iran, Syria, Cuba, etc. provide integral and coordinated support to the terror network. Nobody wants bloodshed, but if there is to be any, let it be the blood of Saddam and his henchmen. And let it be in Iraq rather than in America via future terrorist attacks arising directly from a failure on the part of the world and the UN to do anything to destroy the terrorist infrastructure.
"i have YET to see a pro-war demonstration. I doubt it would draw 10's of thousands of people. Wonder why?"
Only fools want war, and only fools think in terms of pro-war demonstrations. That's why you don't see any. You do see demonstrations in support of our troops, and demonstrations counter to those of the peace movement but they're not as sexy as those led by the Hollywood crew.
"The US has proven it can't even manage itself, with record numbers of prisons, and people still starving in the street. How is this going to reflect on the rest of the world if their methods are applied?"
The US's self-management compares favorably with that of any nation in the world. And we have no desire to apply our methods to the rest of the world. I doubt most other nations have what it takes to emulate America. Expect to see pigs fly first. And the US didn't need so many prisons until after the impact of the social welfare movement resulting from Roosevelt's New Deal and Johnson's Great Society. True, prison is not the place for drug users, but aside from that crime seems largely to be in proportion to the social disruption arising from the good intentions of the leftists.
"$400 billion on the military. 10% of that budget could eliminate hunger and shelter problems for EVERY PERSON ON THE PLANET."
Why don't we just eliminate the US military budget altogether? After all, peace is the way. Isn't unilateral disarmament the answer? Isn't it true that nations like China, North Korea, and the former Soviet Union build up their own militaries and rattle the sabre out of fear of the US? As it happens, that's what that model of world citizenship, North Korea, is claiming this very week.
Maybe the US could slash its military budget, fostering global warfare, which would definitely cut into the ranks of the poor and hungry. Or maybe we could slash our budget, eliminate hunger and shelter problems, so the birthrate could skyrocket, leading to global ethnic conflict and even more famine, and then increased military budgets. Or how about this: Maybe the ignorant fuckers who cast their poor children into lives of hunger could cut back on the birthrate? But then I guess that would presuppose that third world parents might care about the fate of their children half as much as you lefties expect from the rest of us. Oh no: I said "third world"! Oh no: I showed the audacity of assuming parents in impoverished lands might actually be held to standards of reproductive behavior similar to those we impose upon ourselves.
"I don't think any of this can be ignored."
You're right. I tried, but you got me again.
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Edited by - Erebus on 03/09/2003 08:54:26 |
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JamesM
= Cult of Ray =
308 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2003 : 09:39:13
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Proverbial Cereal wasn't advocating blind patriotism. Or, at least, that's not the way I see it that way.
Just for the record, I'm not trying to be a dickweed or spout off fighting words or anything, I just call 'em as I see 'em.
-Jimmy M. |
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Stuart
- The Clopser -
China
2291 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2003 : 16:00:31
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'Nations like Iraq, North Korea, China, Iran, Syria, Cuba, etc. provide integral and coordinated support to the terror network.'
Erebus, give me evidence that 'China as a nation' provides integral and co-ordinated support to the terror network. Thats just bullshit, you don't really know what you are talking about my friend, just like when you talk about China swallowing Taiwan in the event of a war with Iraq (which just wouldn't happen, there would be no sense in it from the Chinese point of view!). If you are going spill out long posts defending the US's right to wage war on countries half their strength then at least give credible arguments not justifications that made up in your own mind.
International Air Guitar Hitman |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2003 : 20:39:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Stuart
'Nations like Iraq, North Korea, China, Iran, Syria, Cuba, etc. provide integral and coordinated support to the terror network.'
Erebus, give me evidence that 'China as a nation' provides integral and co-ordinated support to the terror network. Thats just bullshit, you don't really know what you are talking about my friend, just like when you talk about China swallowing Taiwan in the event of a war with Iraq
Here are excerpts from three articles I found on the China-Terrorism link. And regarding the concern that China could take advantage of the Iraq diversion by invading Taiwan, that was just speculation on possibilities. I did not assert that it would happen. Here are the excerpts (Apologies for the length. I've tried to include only the relevant parts):
http://www.angelfire.com/al4/terror/article17.htm
China and Osama Bin laden
China's Role in Osama bin Laden's 'Holy War' on America
by Steve Mosher
.... Beijing has continued to hold secret negotiations with the Taliban. One result of these negotiations has been a recently signed contract between China's Huawei Technologies Co. and the Taliban which calls for Huawei to build an extensive military communications system throughout Afghanistan. ("The Taliban's supply cut off," Vremya Novostei, 21 Dec. 2000/Agency WPS/Defense and Security, 25 Dec. 2000; "China trades with Taliban," Intelligence, 15 March 2001.)
China and Assymetric Warfare against America
And while most members of the international community have spoken out against al Qaeda's terrorist training schools, China has remained curiously silent, despite its known concern about Islamic terrorism in its own Western provinces. Has some sort of private accommodation between Beijing and the Taliban been reached?
China's arms trade with other rogue governments in the Middle East-Iran, Iraq, Syria, Sudan, Libya-has a long history. Since the 1980s, Beijing has shipped large quantities of conventional arms, as well as technologies and hardware which can be used for the production of nuclear and chemical weapons, and ballistic missiles, to the Middle East. China's goal is to increase its clout in the Middle East, while diminishing that of the U.S. ("China's Arm Sales: Motivations and Implications," Project Air Force, www.rand.org/paf/highlights/china.html.)
China claims to desire peace in the Middle East, yet its actions-and arms sales-have been described as threatening to American soldiers, to the Arab-Israeli peace process and to Persian Gulf stability. China seems to invariably work at cross-purposes to the U.S. in the region, forcing Washington to devote an extraordinary amount of time to curbing China's penchant of attempting to arm rogue nations with the ability to strike out with weapons of mass destruction.
About a year and a half ago, The Jerusalem Post pointed out that the American government's bilateral relations with China largely "has revolved around efforts to prevent the sale of parts, arms, and technology to Middle Eastern states... and reflects the American position on terrorism originating from the Middle East. Thus," The Post ominously forecast, "Osama bin Laden's very independence from state sponsorship is considered all the more threatening because of the possibility he might use WMD [weapons of mass destruction] against, or even within, the U.S." ("The Region: Mother of all threats," The Jerusalem Post, 18 April 2000.)
Will Bush Call China on Its Support of Terrorism?
Wes Vernon, NewsMax.com
Thursday, Feb. 21, 2002
WASHINGTON – President Bush, in his discussions with Chinese leaders, would have a hard time avoiding straight talk about that communist nation’s aid and comfort to the "axis of evil.”
No one doubts the president is dead serious about his determination to eliminate the terrorist threat to the United States. How, then, China-watchers are asking, can he avoid confronting China’s government – at least behind closed doors – about its aid to Iran, Iraq and North Korea? All three, as noted by Sen. Jesse Helms, R-N.C., "are major recipients of China’s deadly exports.”
Writing in Tuesday’s Washington Times, the ranking member and former chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee says, "As along as there is evidence that Chinese shipments of dangerous materials to the axis (or any terrorist regime, for that matter) continue, then how can China be considered anything but part of the axis?”
The book "Seeds of Fire” notes that on the very day terrorist hijackers slammed airliners into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, "a transport aircraft from the People’s Liberation Army” landed at the "ramshackle airport” in Kabul, Afghanistan.
Out stepped "the most important delegation the ruling Taliban had ever received.” They were senior officers from the army and the Bureau of State Security and managers from China’s two leading military contractors.
More important was the cargo the Chinese were delivering to the terrorist regime – the ultimate "axis of evil,” if such a dubious honor can be pinpointed.
The delivery included electronic advance warning systems, missile tracking systems "and various weapons systems that would overnight bring the Taliban army out of the Stone Age in terms of modern warfare to something resembling a formidable fighting force.”
That the fighting force was not, as it turned out, formidable enough to turn back the U.S.-led anti-terrorist coalition does not minimize the fact that the largest nation in the world was backing terror. Nor does it skirt the fact that China was making a statement as to where it stood in this war as President Bush told the nations of the world, "You’re either for us or against us.”
Further quoting from "Seeds of Fire.”
"That Tuesday evening [Sept. 11, 2001] over cups of mint tea, the Taliban and Chinese delegation had signed an historic agreement. In return for providing military equipment, the Taliban would order Muslim Fundamentalists to stop their long-running terror attacks against China’s western provinces.”
Further, the book says that the CSIS (a Chinese intelligence agency) had warned Osama bin Laden of previous attempts to assassinate him, thus enabling the terrorist leader to escape.
Mainland weapons technology for sale?
By Frank Ching Special to China Post
Mainland China's defense white paper, issued last month, shows that the country is increasingly turning into a status quo power. At the very least, it depicts China in that fashion, a portrayal that isn't far off the mark.
.... [But] it doesn't address the many concerns raised in the first report of the Congressional U.S.-China Security Review Commission, which came out last July.
For example, while the white paper portrays China as an eminently law-abiding member of the international community, the commission accused China of providing "technology and components for weapons of mass destruction and their delivery systems" to "terrorist-sponsoring states such as North Korea, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Libya and Sudan." Moreover, it said, "since Sept. 11, Beijing has expressed support for and implemented a working relationship with the United States on some aspects of anti-terrorist efforts, but Chinese proliferation and cooperation with terrorist-sponsoring states have continued unabated."
It is almost like one is reading about two different countries.
Frank Ching has written on China for several decades. He was with The New York Times during the '60s and '70s. He opened The Wall Street Journal's Beijing bureau in 1979. From 1992-2001 he wrote the weekly column "Eye on Asia" in the Far Eastern Economic Review.
Copyright © 2000 The China Post.
All rights reserved.
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El Barto
= Song DB Master =
USA
4020 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2003 : 21:51:00
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Does that article talk about how the US government backed Bin Laden and his troops in the 1980s against the Soviet Union? Does that article talk about how the US government rewarded the Taliban $43 million in early 2001 (am I right on this date?) for destroying their opium crops? Do you have any articles that talk about how the United States backed Saddam in the 1980s in their battle with Iran? How about one that talks about the United States taking Iraq off our list of terrorist nations in the 1980s, at the same time he was using chemical weapons against his own people?
Do you realize that us calling these nations "terrorists" is exactly what these nations are calling us? They believe we are the terrorists as much as we believe they are. Who is right here? We're right because we're the United States? We're the bigger man, we stroke our dicks and drop $400 billion into our military...we're the jock in highschool with the small dick who has to buy that expensive car to make up for it.
At what point did we decide that we can take over a country if we don't like who they are or what they're doing and have it all be OK? Do we seriously think we're going to go into Iraq, and being the "big tough guys were are" by dropping 3,000 bombs on them in 48 hours, kill Saddam? Do you fucking remember what happened to Bin Laden? Didn't we go into Afghanistan to get him? And what's the outcome? As far as we know, he's alive. No big deal, we took over the country, he was just a pawn.
So Saddam is going to go into hiding...we won't find him, guaranteed. And that will just open up a can of worms. He'll just retreat to his "Super Secret Villian Headquarters" with Al Qaida, whom he supposidely has ties to, and lob one of his invisible nuclear missles over to the US. What's next? We go into North Korea and take over their country? Fuck that.
No super power (Rome, Germany) lasted forever, and with this continued poking at the hive, the shits going to spill over and the bees are going to get pissed. The more we fuck with them, the quicker our days of living in 'safety' are numbered. Think about that before you try to justify our terrorist actions. Just because there's world talks and paperwork involved doesn't make it any less of a terrorist act. |
Edited by - El Barto on 03/09/2003 21:53:11 |
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Stuart
- The Clopser -
China
2291 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2003 : 06:00:27
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I agree with you El Barto..... going into Iraq, or killing Bin Laden isn't gonna make the situation better, why the politicians don't realise that is beyond me. Tony Blair is maybe being a bigger prick than George Bush on this point as he is completely ignoring the fact that for years Britain has had problems with the IRA, and that the use of force by the Brits has just made the situation worse. The situation with Iraq / Bin Laden is surely no different...... you kill the terrorists, they grow in numbers and get more determined.
On a similar point a group such as the IRA see's the British as the terrorists, afterall we did invade Ireland, divide up their country and commit unforgiveable attrocities against the Irish..... so in some ways I understand what they stand for..... thats not to say I agree with their method of slaughtering innocent people.
But what do you call the people who fund the terrorists?? Are they terrorists themselves, if so then surely the US are pretty guilty. As mentionned above the US in the past has funded terrorist states, including the IRA, and now it has come back and bit them on the arse.
No matter what arguments Bush or Blair put forward, building a coalition to attack terrorist states is just not the way forward, history has proved that this will just open up a bigger can of worms.
International Air Guitar Hitman |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2003 : 11:13:56
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Reply to El Barto:
"Does that article talk about how the US government backed Bin Laden and his troops in the 1980s against the Soviet Union? Does that article talk about how the US government rewarded the Taliban $43 million in early 2001 (am I right on this date?) for destroying their opium crops? Do you have any articles that talk about how the United States backed Saddam in the 1980s in their battle with Iran? How about one that talks about the United States taking Iraq off our list of terrorist nations in the 1980s, at the same time he was using chemical weapons against his own people?"
I agree with this line of reasoning much more than one might think. Thus has it ever been, to include our relationship with the Philippines' Marcos, and with the South Vietnamese regime in the sixties. We seem forever to be following this zigzag course of what we perceive in the shortrun to be our advantage, working with the faction that can make deals and deliver the goods, usually against the long-term interests of the nation's populace. I suppose that ten to twenty years from now we'll be blamed for whatever Pakistan and Turkey get up to, having dealt with them in the current period. Though I abhor resorting to such arguments, it seems to me that that's the way things have always been. I'm no history buff but haven't the powers of the day always acted this way, for millenia? Certainly it would be better if we were more farsighted in acting toward our own goals. We'd make less enemies and conduct ourselves more justly. Having admitted all this, it does seem clear that if we weren't doing it, someone even more heavyhanded, and less concerned with world opinion, would be. Look at the history of the Soviet Union and China. Or England and France in the 19th century. I truly believe we're much less malignant a force than were our predecessors or would be our contemporary competitors.
"At what point did we decide that we can take over a country if we don't like who they are or what they're doing and have it all be OK?"
I would very much like to see the US adopt an isolationist posture. I agree that if we'd stop fucking with the internal dynamics of nations and regions we'd have fewer enemies and less conflicts. But this is not the time to alter the pattern. 9/11 was way over the top and has not been resolved yet. And we cannot abandon the world stage and leave it to China. Though I have absolutely no faith that we will mend our ways, in future it would be great if we would let hotspots such as the Middle East, Rwanda, Yugoslavia, Vietnam ignite and then burn themselves out. However, we can't forget that our role in the Middle East grew in part out of the Cold War, so it will be difficult, if not impossible to avoid similar mistakes in the future. Not to get into the way Xian faith distorts policy toward the Middle East. Can't say I'm optimistic that the US will ever change its ways, or that it will want to. If power abdicates, something will fill the void, and if the US abdicates its global role, that something will almost certainly be much worse, from almost any honest perspective.
"We go into North Korea and take over their country? Fuck that."
North Korea is a real problem and something needs to be done. The UN is worthless on this. That regime has got to go.
"No super power (Rome, Germany) lasted forever, and with this continued poking at the hive, the shits going to spill over and the bees are going to get pissed"
Yes, the US will decline. The world will go from nasty to worse ad infinitum. You idealists really should get a grip on that.
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2003 : 14:15:03
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| Um, how do you propose to get 9/11 'resolved'? |
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Mellzah
- FB Fan -
63 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2003 : 14:21:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave Noisy
Um, how do you propose to get 9/11 'resolved'?
By bombing other nations, of course! With their 'nukuler' weapons, and 'terrist' activities.
Spilling civilian blood doesn't solve anything. |
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ProverbialCereal
- FB TabMaster -
USA
2953 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2003 : 15:25:01
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Making fun of someone's speech: is that necessarily going to aid in your theory that all the US ever does is bomb other countries?
signed,
Mindless Patriot
Derek |
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Mellzah
- FB Fan -
63 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2003 : 15:54:47
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Well if you want to go there, I certainly can. I never said that all the US does is bomb other counties. HOWEVER, the US most certainly acts like the global policeman, to fulfill the country's "If we do it, it's ok, if you do it, it's terrorism" ideals.
What are we doing in Iraq? Why Iraq? Why now, all of a sudden? Why is it wrong that they have nuclear capabilities, but when North Korea is found to have the same, we do not pursue it? There's more here than what we're being told, and I personally refuse to fight nor support a war based on a president's personal vendetta or the greed for more oil to fill up our canyoneros with.
And if you choose not to question what the government is doing, that's your choice. But don't think for one second that they're waging war for john smith out there in montana's sake. Didn't you hear? War boosts the economy! |
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Stuart
- The Clopser -
China
2291 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2003 : 16:13:40
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North Korea does pose much more of a threat to the world than Iraq, there is no question about that...... I think that with North Korea they have come up against a foe that is alot tougher than Iraq, and will not be able to be dealt with in a short space of time, so they have decided to practically ignore the problem. It does show a hypocracy in the US, this urge to take over the weaker Iraq, and to leave the bigger problem to brew.
International Air Guitar Hitman |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2003 : 16:42:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave Noisy
Um, how do you propose to get 9/11 'resolved'?
Dave, of course you're right to focus on the word "resolve". The response to 9/11 will be open-ended. It seems impossible to envision an end state at which point the issue could be said to be "resolved". There will be an ongoing process, on many fronts. First must be forceful elimination of existing threats, be they regimes or cells. That's the easy part, both easy to see and to accomplish. Obviously some think this will be counter-productive in that it will engender even more resistance than it eliminates. I think this is overestimated, but force could be over applied in such a way as to bring about such undesired consequences. Israel must honestly work toward a true peace. Islam must cease training its children to hate Israel and America. Ideally the Europeans will begin to work with us more, but that's difficult to achieve so long as all parties are pursuing their own separate short-term goals. So, yes, the world is a messy, muddy place with little clarity or resolution. Makes it easy to understand why parties on all sides so often resort to black & white interpretations and behaviors. The hawks lose patience with diplomacy and militate for scorched earth tactics. The Arabs paint us as the infidel. The doves say give peace a chance and love is all you need. It's easy to see that all the absolutist positions fall far short of addressing the actual, muddy, messy, grey-toned situations they would resolve. Many would say that Bush has exacerbated matters with the hawkish talk and deadlines. Others would say that appeasement by prior leadership has only had the effect of allowing the problems to grow to the point where the hawk must have his day. One thing about 9/11: it did clarify matters, much as a centrifuge separates a mix into its elements. Those elements will not be returning to their original relationships. The elements stand exposed as they have not in many a year. |
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