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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
 Posted - 03/10/2003 : 22:32:00
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I personally don't feel that anyone will really feel the situation has been 'resolved' when all[sic] terrorist threats are 'removed'.
Partially because there will always be threats when you amass so much power, but mainly because it is a inhuman and destructive process.
I don't think healing can happen with this kind of destruction. Just as the 'terrorists' probably don't feel like they've resolved anything with what they did on 9/11, i don't think the US will feel any better if this goal is accomplish.
Brute force; you can force the body into submission, but forcing the mind or spirit is another matter. And again, i don't think you're going to win any true friends (or supporters) with this approach.
But hey, if you're holding the gun, may as well pull the trigger, eh?
My two cents for the day. |
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misterwoe
= Cult of Ray =
Greece
675 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2003 : 09:38:12
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Derek,
I think you're giving this government (or whoever is running the country nowadays) too much credit. Granted, we do have some things to be thankful for, but you had better hold on to them tight. I don't know if it has been discussed yet but the Patriot Act II is in the works. One of the things it says is that if ANYONE has ever been involved in "terrorist activities" can be kicked out of the country.
Bills like this get sent through the house so fast that nobody even has time to read them all the way through, and even if congress doesn't pass it, you know Bush will override it. There are some faint etchings of this bill as www.thomasloc.gov. just type in S(space)22. I'll remind you that it is very, very vague, but it is still there.
I don't know this to be factual, but for me it is very easy to believe, in that bills have been passed in support of turning stadiums into concentration camps, highways of death, and etc...
These things are for the people refusing to confrom with the government's evil ways when the time comes.
I used to love this country. I used to think how important it was to remember all of the people that gave their lives for our freedom. But now...it is too late. The loose cannons running this country, I'm not talking about the legislative branch in any way, only care about power and money. That is not very hard to believe. Power and Money.
Signatures are for wusses...yeah, that's right...wusses. |
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Vicki
- FB Fan -
USA
72 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2003 : 10:01:32
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| I thought I might as well post to this and give my opinion, even if it doesn't matter and is overlooked. I realize how "lucky" I am to have the possessions and freedom I enjoy. None of us had anything to do about our geographic location, our ethnicity...we were born to it. There is absolutely no reason for war, we have grown past it. The common American has very little to aid in stopping someone who is intent to be the aggressor. Protesting causes awareness, but has it ever stopped a war? I respect the people who have suffered for my home, but I do not call myself an American because I believe in the government. I believe it to be twisted and perverse. I would be equally as happy in Canada. Actually, better because I'd have health insurance. |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2003 : 13:18:47
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dave, you never answered my question.. i'm still wondering what you hope to achieve by consistently posting negative facts about the US to this particular forum...
i been meanin' to get out of Hollywood. |
Edited by - floop on 03/11/2003 13:21:48 |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2003 : 21:21:04
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Vicki - i agree, protesting hasn't stopped a war, to my knowledge (tho they have stopped other actions..Cloyoquot Sound here in BC is an excellent example.)
That isn't the point of a protest tho - the point of a demonstration is to raise awareness, and give voice to whatever issue, and present it to the public.
From that, hopefully people will listen, talk about it, and the people that DO have the power to stop the war will actually LISTEN, and act on it. (What other options to people who oppose the war have? Letters clearly don't do anything, there is no opportunity to have a referendum on the issue...this is really the only option.
That's my understanding of it.
floop - my goal is for people to recognize the flaws that are existing in the US gov't policies and behavior. Once again, they don't diminish the positive aspects of the US. A negative attribute does not mean it is entirely 'bad'.
Change has to occur. That's not gonna happen if so many people have the misguided and ignorant belief that the only option is to attack Iraq.
My two cents for the nite..hope this makes sense.. ;) |
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cheshireycat
- FB Fan -
USA
75 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2003 : 00:13:32
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I really doubt that 71 U.S. congressmen cannot get a credit card. I mean, come on.
-it's a shame, i'm covered in fleas.- |
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Visiting Sasquatch
= Cult of Ray =
USA
451 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2003 : 14:42:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave Noisy
floop - my goal is for people to recognize the flaws that are existing in the US gov't policies and behavior.
I'd like to point out that that is the SAME argument Islamic terrorists use in justifying their "Jihad".
And you may be surprised that the people you hope to "convert" in recognizing the "flaws", already know what they are.
And why do you think it is, that people in Kuwait, and people in South Korea celebrate the U.S.? |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2003 : 16:57:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Visiting Sasquatch
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Noisy
floop - my goal is for people to recognize the flaws that are existing in the US gov't policies and behavior.
And you may be surprised that the people you hope to "convert" in recognizing the "flaws", already know what they are.
i really don't care anymore, but that was my point to begin with.. i don't really see the point in posting all this stuff here, specifically, other than just to kick dirt in our faces and try and make us feel shitty.
people (from outside the US) really need to start separating the Bush administration and the american populace.. they are, in fact, two different things.. and i say this becasuse it happens all the time (especially when i travel abroad); people think they have the right to sit there and direct all this animosity towards YOU simply becasue you're a US citizen. as if every US citizen is one and the same, and should be made to answer for the ongoings of our government.
when people do that it just exposes their own ignorance (even though people from other countries are so fond of talking about how stupid americans are).
there's nothing wrong with recognizing the faults with the US government, as you say.. but when you feel the need to "recognize faults" as often as you do, at a certain point you start looking like a dick.
a dick because you're directing a lot of anger and animosity towards people who are personally not responsibe for everything their country does.. nor do they necessairly support it.
you say your comments don't take away from the good people and things about the US, but you don't mention anything about those (except for FB of course).. all i ever hear coming from your way is how horrible the United States is.
why is it that all of the worthwhile artists who have come out of Canada (all three that is) live in the United States? (excluding Atom Egoyan).. it can't be that bad can it?
i been meanin' to get out of Hollywood. |
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ProverbialCereal
- FB TabMaster -
USA
2953 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2003 : 18:03:02
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Yeah, let's hear some of the bad stuff Canada does, eh? All this trashing of the US with no positive remarks is kind of getting old. I'm not saying it should stop right this instant, but maybe it should be evened out with some negative inforomation about Canada... (and i'm not talking about nickelback or celene dion)
Derek |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2003 : 20:45:31
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floop - you seem to indicate that you aren't responsible for the current gov'ts behavior. You didn't vote, or whatever. If that's the case, why are you taking any of this personally? It's 'out of your hands', right?
I don't mention other countries policies (which are agree-ably often much worse than the US) because there isn't a significant amount of people who are from that country here, or who are interested in those policies.
The US is not even 200km away from me. Everything that happens there affects me in some way. I am not going to sit by and ignore it, sorry. (Not to mention that your gov't has put you in the hotseat, by taking on so much power, you're only going to draw more criticism. Who can really ever feel sorry for Bill Gates because people criticize him?)
If i'm a dick for writing this, what does this make somebody who reads this thread who supposedly don't want to?
Whatever.. If it isn't me posting negative stuff about the US, it will be someone else. (Right Jim?)
As for problems in Canada, none really reach the global proportions as much as the US. But, i'm really concerned about our public Health Care. Teachers are getting paid too little. Unemployment is too low. We have too much dependence on oil. Here in BC, we're cutting down the last of our prestine temperate rainforests. Fish farms are a nightmare.
Not too exciting. And certainly not like any of this will be single-handedly responsible for the deaths of millions of humans. |
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cheshireycat
- FB Fan -
USA
75 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2003 : 00:26:55
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you really shouldn't take anything someone in another country thinks of you, without knowing you, to heart. it sounds like stupid, motherly advice, but it's ageless advice because it's true. people who judge and don't look any further into things before they do so shouldn't really have those opinions respected anyway, especially if they're against you.
-it's a shame, i'm covered in fleas.- |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2003 : 04:59:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave Noisy
floop - you seem to indicate that you aren't responsible for the current gov'ts behavior. You didn't vote, or whatever. If that's the case, why are you taking any of this personally? It's 'out of your hands', right?
when did i say i didn't vote "or whatever"? that's a pretty ignorant assumption dave..
i did vote.. and since then, i've done what i can otherwise (signed petitions, attended protests).. so no, i don't hold myself responsible.. not because it's out of my hands, but because i'm not a supporter..
quote:
The US is not even 200km away from me. Everything that happens there affects me in some way. I am not going to sit by and ignore it, sorry. (Not to mention that your gov't has put you in the hotseat, by taking on so much power, you're only going to draw more criticism. Who can really ever feel sorry for Bill Gates because people criticize him?)
i bet you're not much fun at parties.
i hope you achieve whatever you hope to achieve by flooding the Frank Black Forum with your political rantings.. good luck to you.
quote:
If i'm a dick for writing this, what does this make somebody who reads this thread who supposedly don't want to?
someone needs to call you on your bullshit when you post false allegations.. you just seem a little overeager to bash the US lately and it's kind of annoying,. simple as that. you put YOURself in the hotseat when you posted that.
i clicked on the topic because i was intrigued by the "i wonder..." but then, qickly realized it was yet another anti-US post from you.. i'll know in the future now to avoid your posts.
or rather, i will check them just to make sure you're not spreading more false propaganda.
i been meanin' to get out of Hollywood. |
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misterwoe
= Cult of Ray =
Greece
675 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2003 : 06:59:43
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People make fun of Canada all the time. What is there really to make fun of though? They're not as strict on marijuana there. How can you make fun of that?
Signatures are for wusses...yeah, that's right...wusses. |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2003 : 17:31:08
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well, they do talk kinda funny..
i can make fun of Canadians because my Uncle is originally from Canada.. and all of the relatives on my mom's side are from North Dakota.. oooooohh yeeeeeeahhh,
ooooooooooh yeeeeaahhhh
my uncle actually used to be a pretty big professional hockey player back in the day.. went on to play with the Minnesota North Stars and shit.. (which i guess are no longer a team right?)..
anyway, i've got nothing against Canadians or Canada.. just people who stereotype and misdirect their negative energy..
i been meanin' to get out of Hollywood. |
Edited by - floop on 03/13/2003 17:38:43 |
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Thomas
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1615 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2003 : 11:25:55
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| Someone recently took a picture of me next to a sign that read "American bastards go home". I was kinda hoping it was a gateway, but alas. |
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mereubu
= FB QuizMistress =
USA
2677 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2003 : 12:45:33
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| Thomas! Where in the hell are you? |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2003 : 13:38:15
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from andrewsullivan.com, "narrated" by Andrew Sullivan:
"THE BLIND EUROPEANS: My friend Bruce Bawer lives in Norway. He sends a missive about the appalling state of Norwegian media on the Iraq issue:
'You don't have to be pro-war to be appalled by the way in which European opinion on this issue has been formed. When I first moved to Europe I would've echoed the familiar refrain about American naivete and European sophistication. (Friggin' Henry James.) I realize now it's closer to being the other way around. We're at least trying to figure out how to deal with the real world. They've decided to buy into the comfortable pretense that the real menaces out there aren't real and that the only real danger is American arrogance. Reading the propaganda sheets here in Norway from day to day, the sense of flight from reality, the empty self-righteousness, the need to regurgitate anti-US cliches that everybody knows deep down are nonsense, the mindless reiteration of the word "peace," the refusal to take responsibility for ANYTHING, is staggering. So is the readiness with which the people soak up it all. It's scary how in a social-democratic country the very idea of taking responsibility is bred out of the race. And the concept of freedom isn't even on their radar.'
That last point is essential, I think. Which is why those European countries with freer economies or those struggling to leave socialism behind in the East are the most supportive of doing something to make the world safer. It's called a sense of responsibility."
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2003 : 15:55:59
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no shit Thomas, where are you??? and more importantly, where is my CD?
just kidding, where are you though?? hope you're staying safe and sound..
i been meanin' to get out of Hollywood. |
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Thomas
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1615 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2003 : 04:59:39
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quote:
Originally posted by floop
no shit Thomas, where are you??? and more importantly, where is my CD?
If you are away from home all CD's should be waiting for you when you get back. Enjoy. Yes even from far away from home I can still find time to send a burned CD or 2 to someone.
quote:
just kidding, where are you though?? hope you're staying safe and
sound..
I'm having hella good time being a NATO BASTARD at this point. I'm in a safer place than my fellow warriors, but still over seas. I get lucky every once in awhile and after I read and reply to my e-mails I get a little time to check out this site and what some of the whiny titty babies are saying.
Much love to all.
New York 1 news story on my Deployment
quote:
Navy Reserve Unit Deploys From The Bronx
FEBRUARY 20TH, 2003
Dozens of Navy reservists said an emotional goodbye to family members in the Bronx Thursday morning before joining the U.S. military buildup for a possible war with Iraq.
After being called up to active duty several weeks ago, the 67 men and women from the Mobile InShore Undersea Warfare Unit 203 shipped out from Throgs Neck for parts unknown.
Commanding Officer Michael Bartlett said they're ready for whatever their one-year assignment brings. He said one of the toughest parts is saying goodbye.
“Right now is the last time, face-to-face, the families can see their loved one, their sailor, before they leave,” Bartlett said.
That includes his wife, Dottie Bartlett, who said she's very proud, but also worried – and not just about her husband.
““I'm very proud of him,” she said. “It's something that needs to be done. I'm very worried. Our son is also a Navy pilot; we only have one child. It's very difficult, because right now he's not going anywhere, but who knows. It's very stressful.”
Family members say they knew this day was coming, but that doesn't make it any easier.
“We've been spending a lot of time together, a lot of hugs and kisses,” said reservist Oswaldo Rosado.
“I'm not too happy about this, but it was going to happen,” said Oswaldo’s wife, Wanda. “We’re ready, I guess, but we're never ready for this.”
“I feel sad that my dad's leaving, but he wants to do it,” said their son, Oswaldo Rosado Jr. said. “So, I'm going to let him do it.”
Those left behind have plans to get together and find support in their extended military family.
“I do sonograms, so I offered – there’s nine wives, so I offered to do sonograms for them and send little pictures, little e-mails over of the babies who are going to be born without their fathers,” said Yvonne Brunner, whose husband is a reservist.
But despite all the ties to home, when it came time to load onto the bus and leave, the brave men and women were ready to fulfill their duty.
“We sign on the dotted line to support and defend the Constitution of the United States,” said reservist Gary Balsamo. “And that’s what I intend to do.”
“We just want to get done with it and get home,” said reservist Dexter Kalam. “Complete our mission and get home.”
About 300 other sailors from New Jersey and Buffalo deployed Thursday, joining nearly 800 other Navy reservists from the Northeast overseas.
If you click the website you can also see a very small picture of me walking with my wife and kids and father, my daughter is hidden behind me. There is also a video there that I haven't been able to view.
ENJOY ;)
Thomas
"Our love is rice and beans and horses lard" |
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mereubu
= FB QuizMistress =
USA
2677 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2003 : 06:23:23
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Take care, Thomas! Hurry back!
( . V . ) |
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Visiting Sasquatch
= Cult of Ray =
USA
451 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2003 : 08:51:30
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| Take care of yourself, Thomas. Be back in time for Frank's next album(s)! |
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ivandivel
= Cult of Ray =
394 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2003 : 16:28:26
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| Hey erebus, interesting report from norway. I wonder why you quote "the very idea of taking responsibility is bred out of the race. And the concept of freedom isn't even on their radar."? You feel that to be an accurate description erebus? I don't post "stuff" i've heard about americans on the board in order to bash them. I don't need to. I've lived in your country - and i like americans. I bet you don't know a fucking thing about life and opinions on this place of the planet (which would be - yep - norway). We might be an acceptable "race" after all. I don't know if i am for or against the war, but I know that I am against how your goverment argues. Any leader that claims that god is on his side has a mental problem (such a statement is clearly delusional, even in american diagnostic manuals - check it out yourself) and needs treatment. And it surely doesn't comunicate very well to the rest of the world, who then obviously don't have god on their side. And you think disagreements about yur war policy is due to the lack of the concept of freedom? |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2003 : 21:16:38
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Good points.
Another, and i think this has been pointed out already, but just in case it hasn't - what is American's 'liberation' track record like?
How many countries have they stormed into, and left a shining example of democracy?
How democratic is the US itself? (I've seen million of people protesting the idea of going to war, not nearly so many for it...democro-what??)
Sad. The US should NOT be trying to apply their feeble concept of 'democracy' on other countries. |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2003 : 06:41:01
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quote:
Originally posted by ivandivel
Hey erebus, interesting report from norway.
Ivandivel, I apologize for insulting you and the people of Norway. I was intending to use the post as a response to international anti-war sentiment in general and therefore should have made clear that I did not mean to pick on Norway. And no, I do not think the post provides an completely accurate description of Norway or any other country. If anything it's accurate only in how it captures a response to the nature and questionable validity of much anti-war reaction. Though I did visit Europe many years ago, I have not been to Norway. I am an atheist and join you in being distressed over the role of religion in American life. Thank you for responding. |
Edited by - Erebus on 03/24/2003 10:12:39 |
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Thomas
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1615 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2003 : 13:48:25
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quote:
Originally posted by mereubu
Take care, Thomas! Hurry back!
( . V . )
Those babies are a couple of things I am really missing. ;)
.|.
Thanks
Thomas
"Our love is rice and beans and horses lard" |
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Stuart
- The Clopser -
China
2291 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2003 : 16:59:25
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Well, I think that the US are completely out of order, and I am also fucking ashamed to be British at the moment.... fuck Blair and Bush, I thought that Blair wasn't as much of a twat as Bush, but I was wrong. For once I am on the side of the French and Russians (despite the attrocities they have reaped on the Chechens), diplomacy should have been continued. But how could that happen when the US had decided months and months ago that they were going to change the regime in Iraq. Maybe the rest of the world should decide that Britain and US need a regime change.......
International Air Guitar Hitman |
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El Barto
= Song DB Master =
USA
4020 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2003 : 18:12:13
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| You know, the world really needs to think about where and when this will end. We all know that as long as Bush is in power (or the republicans in general), Iraq is not the end of our quest for world domination. As history has shown, no great power lasted forever, and America certainly won't. It's coming to a point where we are more of a threat to the world than these other so-called terrorists. Why? Well, how many of these terrorist nations will actually bring the war to our soil and try to change our regime (don't anyone fucking *DARE* say 9/11, cause it is irrelavent...i'm talking WAR on our soil). None. How many countries are we willing to go after? The possibilities are limitless! We're going to start World War 3. What happened to Germany after WW2? |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2003 : 20:05:25
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9/11
i said it.. what are you going to do?
i know what you saying Barto about "war" in the strict sense of the term, but still i would hardly say 9/11 is "irrelevant"..
(and this after i told myself i wasn't going to discuss this topic anymore..)
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Edited by - floop on 03/24/2003 20:06:51 |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2003 : 21:27:11
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What happened to Germany?
Really bad electronic music and weird pizza toppings, that's what.
;)
9/11 isirrelevant since there's been no evidence presented to the world that Iraq was involved.
It was the Taliban and Afghanistan, right? But i guess you can't keep attacking them since they've been attacked-out.
It's funny, i read about how the US is prosecuting some people in connection with the Taliban..are they gonna prosecute themselves next for their own involvement?
This guys spent a few years or whatever, the US spend tens of millions of dollars..hmmm.. |
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Stuart
- The Clopser -
China
2291 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2003 : 23:31:59
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The thing that gets me, is what happens if the US and Britain storm into Iraq and find that there are no WMD..... why are they not going to give this 'proof' to the world that Iraq has chemical and biological weapons??? It only makes more and more people suspect that the US are up to no good.
Also, the US are bitching at the Russians today about the Russians apparently selling weapons to the Iraqi's..... talk about a hypocracy, surely the Iraqis are fighting the coalition nazis... erm I mean forces with US made weapons, sold to them by the US government.
International Air Guitar Hitman |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2003 : 04:47:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave Noisy
9/11 isirrelevant since there's been no evidence presented to the world that Iraq was involved.
i wasn't talking about Iraq (who mentioned Iraq?) and agree that there is no connection (that's been poven) between 9/11 and Iraq..
i was just refering to El Barto's comment about "war on our soil".. and "these terrorist nations" (iraq not included).. sure, none of these nations are going to come in here and change our regime, but attacks on our soil, like the 9/11 attack, are not irrelevant.. |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2003 : 09:39:01
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Sorry, i thought you were using 9/11 as justification to attack Iraq.
Your other post about Canadians was pretty funny. =) |
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Dallas
= Cult of Ray =
USA
725 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2003 : 10:41:11
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Dave, you seem to be at least curious about facts that go against your position. I really respect that. Here is a late-breaking item about how the Iraqi's are reacting to the coalition presence:
Iraqi uprising against Saddams forces in Basra
http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1085087,00.html |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2003 : 12:43:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave Noisy
Good points.
Another, and i think this has been pointed out already, but just in case it hasn't - what is American's 'liberation' track record like?
Well, Germany and Japan went prettty well but that wasn't just the US. Kuwait I think was a success. Korea, while unfinished, is probably better than if the US hadn't gotten involved.
I would say that in the past the US has done a fairly good job of not imposing its will on other countries given its overwhelming ability to do so. However, Bush/Cheney have blown that tradition in two years. Bye, bye Koyoto. Bye, bye Anti-ballistic missle treaty. The left wing and Ralph Nader, however, could have prevented this in the 2000 elections. |
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Dallas
= Cult of Ray =
USA
725 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2003 : 12:55:21
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Just a point of fact for anyone interested in facts. Kyoto was voted down 100-0 in the US Senate while Bill Clinton was President. Obviously you can disagree with that decision, but, purporting that this was some Bush initiative here in the US is just plain wrong.
History is a funny thing, if you credit Bush being President to Nader, than the Clinton admin. owes its existence to Ross Perot. BTW, GW Bush rec'd more votes than Bill Clinton did in either of his elections. Again, only offered to those interested in facts. |
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