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 Rejected From Wikipedia... Shazeb Andleeb
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =

Canada
11605 Posts

Posted - 12/21/2006 :  19:57:46  Show Profile  Visit Cult_Of_Frank's Homepage  Reply with Quote
You can if you have somewhere on the web that it can be accessed. Or you can email it to me and I'll put it on our Shazeb page.


"Now you're officially my woman. Kudos. I can't say I don't envy you."
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matto
= Cult of Ray =

USA
908 Posts

Posted - 12/21/2006 :  21:10:51  Show Profile  Visit matto's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Holy smokes! What an awful story.
....
Maybe in memorium, and in retaliation against Dickipedia, the FB-Net gang should make a FB-pedia, a la the Lost-apedia and so on. Just a thought'.
Peace!

sminki pinki
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Brett_Harte
- FB Fan -

USA
4 Posts

Posted - 12/26/2006 :  17:53:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I am sorry to hear Mr. Andleeb being made out to be the hero that he was not. I am sorry that I stumbled upon this Forum's website.

I am the step-mother of Christian and he was not involved in this incident, but because he was associated with the young men that were, he was arrested; because he just turned 18, he was tried as an adult and was coerced into taking a plea bargain (an all or none situation). He spent jail time, as did Mr. Nieves. Because Christian had not received his citizenship as yet, he has been deported. The young men who were involved in the incident were not 18 and were tried in juvenile court and had to serve x amount of time for community service.

This website has brought up a lot of pain. Christian is a good young man.

Mr. Andleeb was not as "lily white" as he is made out to be here on this Forum. He threatened these young men as well as taunted them with his "gang banger" friends for multiple days before the incident occurred. It later came out that Mr. Andleeb had a genetic heart condition, which apparently folks did not know about at the time.

This was an unfortutunate incident, but it did leave a lot of hurt that is still occurring.

If you do not know what has happened, please be considerate of other's feelings. Do not assume that the victim is the innocent of all----sometimes there are things that are left unsaid or unknown and the sensationalism of the journalist's hand is to create a story and a lot of truth is left out.
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coastline
> Teenager of the Year <

USA
3049 Posts

Posted - 12/26/2006 :  21:09:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Interesting post. This is all the more reason to flesh out all the details of the story and write a proper wiki on this guy.

One of the interesting things is how little the Frank Black song actually says. There aren't a lot of details of the story in the lyrics of the song.


Is that a real poncho or is that a Sears poncho?
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tisasawath
= Cult of Ray =

Wallis and Futuna Islands
778 Posts

Posted - 12/27/2006 :  01:01:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Interesting details about the trial and the consequences.
I didn't see this as Mr. Andleeb being made out to be the hero, but a tragic victim of those who killed him. They are alive, he is not, by their choice.
That wasn't an incident, it was a killing of an individual by a group, there will never be justification for what they did. I'm truly sorry but that's how things stand, we can't change the past.
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fbc
-= Modulator =-

United Kingdom
4903 Posts

Posted - 12/27/2006 :  01:14:26  Show Profile  Visit fbc's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brett_Harte

...he was not involved in this incident, but because he was associated with the young men that were, he was arrested; because he just turned 18, he was tried as an adult and was coerced into taking a plea bargain (an all or none situation).

God Bless America, huh?

Edited by - fbc on 12/27/2006 01:14:46
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coastline
> Teenager of the Year <

USA
3049 Posts

Posted - 12/27/2006 :  12:45:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I've been doing some research on this today. This Christian Bremmer fellow was clearly involved in Shazeb Andleeb's murder. I don't know how anyone could say otherwise. Say all you want about journalists sensationalizing the story, but a court of law convicted him of murdering Shazeb. It does seem important to note that Christian got six years and the other adult, Rene Nieves, got 11 years because Nieves "acted more violently" (this is according to a newspaper report). But Christian was convicted of murder, regardless of whether he was the primary killer. How on earth can he not have been involved?

At any rate, here's a news article I found today on the sentencing. The whole case is pretty interesting. I'll post more clips as I find them.

------------------------------

Daily Breeze (Torrance, CA)

October 9, 1996
Section: LOCAL
Page: A3

2 get prison terms in killing at Narbonne

Author: Tomas J. Lewis

Two former students at Narbonne High School in Harbor City were sentenced to prison Tuesday for the fatal beating of a 17-year-old classmate who crossed off the initials of their tagging crew from a party list.

Christian Bremmer, 19, of Lomita received a six-year term and Rene Nieves, 19, of Harbor City got 11 years because he acted more violently in the May 18, 1995, attack that killed Shazeb Andleeb, said Deputy District Attorney Ann Ingalls.

Long Beach Superior Court Judge Richard Romero handed down the sentences following plea bargains the two men reached with Ingalls when they unexpectedly pleaded guilty on the second day of their murder trial.

The pair were convicted Sept. 24 of voluntary manslaughter for beating and stomping Andleeb to death after he crossed off the initials of their tagging crew from an end-of-the-year party list he was compiling.

Four other Narbonne students also were charged with the slaying. Because they were younger than 18, all were tried in Juvenile Court and eventually pleaded no contest. They were sentenced to one-year terms in county probation camps.

A fifth defendant, who also was tried as a juvenile but turned 18 during the hearings, also pleaded no contest and received an indeterminate term in the California Youth Authority.

Andleeb died of head and neck injuries inflicted during the attack on campus.

The parents of the 11th-grade student moved to Toronto, Canada, shortly after burying him at Green Hills Memorial Park in Rancho Palos Verdes.


Is that a real poncho or is that a Sears poncho?
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edbanky
= Cult of Ray =

Burkina Faso (Upper Volta)
388 Posts

Posted - 12/27/2006 :  19:01:59  Show Profile  Visit edbanky's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by coastline

Andleeb died of head and neck injuries inflicted during the attack on campus.

Is that a real poncho or is that a Sears poncho?



Assuming the article is accurate, it certainly casts doubt on the relevance of this from Brett_Harte:

"It later came out that Mr. Andleeb had a genetic heart condition, which apparently folks did not know about at the time."

On the other hand, this quote comes from a sincere post by someone (who purports to be) much closer to the case than any reporter could possibly be.

My bullshit detector does sound a bit when we are expected to believe that the "only" reason this Bremmer guy was treated harshly by the courts was that he was "of age".

To coastline I would only say that using court findings as a basis for pronouncing "clear . . . involve[ment]" might be a little tenuous. I personally have very little respect for/faith in the American criminal justice system, anyway.


Tiny Axe (MySpace)
Me singing
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coastline
> Teenager of the Year <

USA
3049 Posts

Posted - 12/27/2006 :  19:18:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm a journalist. We're trained to consider the findings of the law to be the truth. The system we have in place is stronger than any other you'll find in the world. You're free to distrust the law, but I'm willing to accept that a reasoned decision was made based on factual evidence. I'm also willing to trust the veracity of this article. It's hard to make up shit when it's all right there in the court records, which at this point we have to assume it is.

I'm more and more fascinated by this case each time I read about it. It happened in 1995, which makes it pre-Columbine -- and pre-Springfield, if memory serves me. Nowadays, school violence makes big headlines everywhere. This case would never have been heard of outside of California if Frank Black hadn't written a song about it. But if it had happened today, it'd be a lot bigger deal. It's at least worth a wiki. When I have a few spare moments ...


Is that a real poncho or is that a Sears poncho?
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tisasawath
= Cult of Ray =

Wallis and Futuna Islands
778 Posts

Posted - 12/28/2006 :  00:51:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I didn't have a problem with clearing the name of a person per se, because I don't know the man or his involvement. What I do have a problem with is when someone tries to make an attempt at defending the whole group of attackers and make them look better not by talking about them but by trying to make their victim look bad and trying to make it seem like he had it coming or deserved it.
Speaking of other's feelings, I know how sensationalism can hurt them and how this website could bring up pain to someone. I also wonder about Andleeb's parents' feelings if they saw a post smearing the memory of their dead son.

Edited by - tisasawath on 12/28/2006 01:06:25
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Billy Radcliffe
- FB Fan -

USA
145 Posts

Posted - 12/28/2006 :  07:27:46  Show Profile  Visit Billy Radcliffe's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by coastline

I still think it's lame that Wikipedia rejected an entry on this guy. I'm going to give it a second try. Billy, you should send me the text of what you tried to submit originally.




At the time, I had just pasted my entire text to the cult of ray section since they wouldn't let him have his own section. Also, since I have tried to post this, tons more info has come to light. You really can't tell if Shazeb was a good man or not, and it is unclear what the actual circumstances were...

Frank was real cool to let us know about a certain event that happened at his alma mater, I am starting to believe that I pick up on Franks point which is:

It doesn't matter if shazeb was wrong or right. It doesn't matter if the kids that beat him were right. Frank gave us little information because he HAD little information to give at the time. I would hate to think that I had offended anyone by dredging up the past, but we seek the truth. I also have to slightly discount everything said by a relative because I would love my own stepson even if he was murderer. Other than that, I think what Frank wanted for us is to find out what happened and quit living in a world with blinders on. Personally, I believe if you were the worst person in the world you don't deserve a demise in which you had no chance to fight back. The line had to be drawn somewhere and it was drawn with Frank just staing that his death was not fair or right.

I guess when it comes right down to it, It can't even be proven if people who said they were there, were actually there. I seek truth and truth doesn't come easy. But I do know more now that when I first started and THAT my friends, is what I think Frank Black intended for us all along

CPL-5938
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fbc
-= Modulator =-

United Kingdom
4903 Posts

Posted - 12/28/2006 :  13:26:06  Show Profile  Visit fbc's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Nice, Billy.

I don't want to carry on the Mr Bremmer talk, but I can't get over the fact that someone could be arrested and sentenced just by association. If that's true, and I don't need to know the answer, then it's a crying shame. There are no winners, unfortunately only losers. Every family that's involved. Very Sad.

But the song's still great. That is one fact I do know.
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Brett_Harte
- FB Fan -

USA
4 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2006 :  19:14:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Prison is no place for a young person to be. Christian just wanted to go home, and therefore, he accepted a plea bargain at any and all costs (even though he was not involved). It was an all or none situation and he did not want to spend another day in jail. (He was not guilty, but he was associated with these individuals; and yes, this does happen.) This never did go to trial; only the plea bargain was entered.

Journalists do not print the entire truth and, yes, coastline, they do sensationalize the facts and omit a lot of the truth and facts. They take parts of statements (out of context) and turn them into something that sells newspapers and other media. If you do not as a journalist, then you are one in a million. The only thing that Christian was guilty of was knowing that this fight was going to happen and he did not tell anyone (adult, teacher, parent, etc.) about it. He chickened out and was a bystander.

I wish Andleeb's parents and family peace.
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coastline
> Teenager of the Year <

USA
3049 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2006 :  19:33:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
For me, this is the relevant part of the article I posted above:

"The pair were convicted Sept. 24 of voluntary manslaughter for beating and stomping Andleeb to death after he crossed off the initials of their tagging crew from an end-of-the-year party list he was compiling."

Is it untrue? Did the reporter botch the reason they were convicted?


Is that a real poncho or is that a Sears poncho?
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Brett_Harte
- FB Fan -

USA
4 Posts

Posted - 01/03/2007 :  12:08:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
First of all they were not taggers. Secondly, if they would have interviewed the attorneys (regarding more than the plea bargain), they would have found that Mr. Bremmer chickened out and was "railroaded into a plea bargain. Mr. Nieves was pulling people off. That, Mr. Coastline, is the "untold" truth. Journalists leave a lot of the uninteresting information out. They write to sell newspapers and other media.

If this incident was not about a minority, it probably would have just "died out". At the time of the incident, there was a beginning sense of distrust of peoples from Eastern countries (Pakistan, in this case) and also of the Muslim faith. This was not a "hate" crime. This was about boys having a disagreement which ended up in a fight and one of the boys expiring.

Also, the Principal of Narbonne washed his hands of the whole thing. He wanted a scape-goat; the answer to this was Mr. Bremmer and Mr. Nieves, as well as the five minors who were tried in the juvenile court system.

This is a hard truth that the journalists did not want to further investigate; they just took the "easy" road; which to me is truth being left out.
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coastline
> Teenager of the Year <

USA
3049 Posts

Posted - 01/03/2007 :  13:27:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It doesn't seem to me like this was reported as a hate crime, based on the articles I've read in a number of California newspapers. It also doesn't seem like any of these newspapers sensationalized the story. In fact, I was disappointed to find a real lack of reporting on the motive behind this crime.

As far as I can tell, this was a case of what we now call "school violence." (Just today, there was a murder at a high school in Tacoma, Washington. Immediately, the TV news had the "School Violence" banner on the screen while they reported about it.) In Shazeb Andleeb's case, a bunch of bullies took exception with one kid, and beat the life out of him. In other cases, the bullies have been the ones who have been murdered (i.e. Columbine, here in my own city).

I become more and more interested in this case all the time, especially since you have filled us in with some of the other side of the story, Brett_Harte. I'm not sure whom to believe, when it comes to some of the details -- you or the newspaper reports. I think you're biased (but understandably so); you think they're biased; the real truth, as always, is likely somewhere in between the two versions. Somebody ought to write a book. In the end, maybe some young men's names might be cleared.




Is that a real poncho or is that a Sears poncho?
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sarahkushner
- FB Fan -

USA
7 Posts

Posted - 01/03/2007 :  13:49:21  Show Profile  Visit sarahkushner's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Sorry I've been out of town and haven't posted... seems a lot is being said.

I never said Shazeeb was a hero. But I think it is highly unfair to make a statement about him and his "gangbanger friends." I didn't know him personally, but I knew one of his best friends, Farrah. The day he was attacked it was him, his sister, and Farrah against six. I went to Junior High with Farrah, she was a sweet person. We giggled over my first kiss. I told her to be proud of the beautiful mehndi on her hands that she tried to hide at school. We would whisper in history class... I saw pain ripped through face that day. Reporters shoved thier cameras into her car window. I really don't think its right to say that she was a "gangbanger" friend, especially when I knew her not to be.

When I said that Shazeeb was a good kid I was basing it on what was said by teachers that we both had. I honestly never heard anything bad said about him by anyone. I was in "student alliance" with him, his sister, and other friends. He was very quiet, whether it was from being shy or something else I don't know.

But I would also like to point out that it was not just the young men that went to jail that were affected. The entire school was. The media made us ALL out to be uncaring monsters that just watched it happen. It was reported that the beating took place for a long period of time, that we cheered and goaded the attackers on. The principal, Mr. Donahoe, tried his best to keep reporters at bay... although I still to this day find his "expired" comment disturbing... he did make sure to have crisis councilers on campus almost immediatly.

Not only were the students affected, but his family... who came from Pakistan to get away from random violence... The teachers that saw him everyday... Anyone that watched the news... One event, any event, that results in a death is going to have a ripple effect. Everyone on this forum was obviously affected, though they didn't know him.

No one said anyone was a hero... we are affected by the needless death of a young man. I was 17, I saw a boy that saw everyday walking to class... and he was dying in front of me.

PS. My teacher that was trying to save his life, talked with the hospital after it all was over... Shazeeb died of blunt force trauma to a neck vertebrae, resulting from someone stomping on his throat.
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sarahkushner
- FB Fan -

USA
7 Posts

Posted - 01/04/2007 :  13:35:44  Show Profile  Visit sarahkushner's Homepage  Reply with Quote
On a note to Brett

I was talking with my fiance last night, and he and a friend of ours knew Rene, we were all students at Narbonne. He said that to him it seemed that Rene was a good guy caught in a bad situation. None of us knew Christian, but if what you say is true... how sad that the two that were not as much involved had to serve prison terms... while the others recieved next to nothing for their involvement. One of the underage attackers was known around campus to be a very bad person, my fiance recalled him... and stated that he wouldn't be surprised if this one person did most of the beating. There was also one person that came from outside campus... who wasn't a student... I think though that we can agree that this was a terrible event that never should have happened.

I do want to say that I'm sorry your family has been put through obvious pain, I did forget to say that earlier.
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fbc
-= Modulator =-

United Kingdom
4903 Posts

Posted - 01/04/2007 :  13:47:57  Show Profile  Visit fbc's Homepage  Reply with Quote
thank you both for enlightening me
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edbanky
= Cult of Ray =

Burkina Faso (Upper Volta)
388 Posts

Posted - 01/04/2007 :  14:13:21  Show Profile  Visit edbanky's Homepage  Reply with Quote
" . . . he ascended into light."


Tiny Axe (MySpace)
Me singing
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coastline
> Teenager of the Year <

USA
3049 Posts

Posted - 01/04/2007 :  14:40:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sarahkushner

I'm not sure of the spelling right now, since I'm at work... I'm going by the google search that came up. I will need to look at the yearbook. Can we post pictures in this forum? I can scan his photo and post it.

Did you ever find that photo?


Is that a real poncho or is that a Sears poncho?
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sarahkushner
- FB Fan -

USA
7 Posts

Posted - 01/04/2007 :  14:44:32  Show Profile  Visit sarahkushner's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Unfortunatly... I went out of town the day I posted that... AND I keep forgeting to grab the yearbook on my way out the door... damn pregnancy amnesia... lol
I'll pull it out tonight and put it by my bag... that should do the trick.
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sarahkushner
- FB Fan -

USA
7 Posts

Posted - 01/05/2007 :  18:43:48  Show Profile  Visit sarahkushner's Homepage  Reply with Quote
here is the picture from the yearbook
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coastline
> Teenager of the Year <

USA
3049 Posts

Posted - 01/05/2007 :  19:40:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks, Sarah. Poor kid. He never became older than he was in that picture. Regardless of what's said about who did what and who was responsible, it's very sad that this kid died. As Neil Young said in "Rockin' in the Free World":

There's one more kid
that will never go to school
Never get to fall in love,
never get to be cool.


Is that a real poncho or is that a Sears poncho?
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Brett_Harte
- FB Fan -

USA
4 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2007 :  01:29:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thank you, Sarah, for your kind words and well wishes. I know that all the school mates of Anleeb will feel bad (or is that sad) whenever they will think of him on that dreadful day. I know from personal experience when one of my class mates died as a result of a fight with his own father. He was 16 years old. I still remember.

Coastline, the sensationalism was reported by the television reporters. They really "ate up" the pain that the Anleeb family was feeling and they even showed (televised) the funeral.
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Carl
- A 'Fifth' Catholic -

Ireland
11546 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2007 :  11:34:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Brett, sorry to hear about your friend.

Edited by - Carl on 02/06/2007 11:13:22
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coastline
> Teenager of the Year <

USA
3049 Posts

Posted - 01/08/2007 :  14:01:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I was listening to a bootleg concert over the weekend, and it had solo acoustic version of "The Last Stand of Shazeb Andleeb." In his comments before he played it,
Frank said he also went to Narbonne High School. He joked about how he was too small to be on the football team. Anyhow, I guess his being an alumnus at Narbonne was one reason Frank took notice of Shazeb Andleeb's death.


And aren't you havin' fun?
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Devils Islander
- FB Fan -

United Kingdom
101 Posts

Posted - 01/09/2007 :  13:06:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ugly incident - beautiful song ...end of.

...where the Ballyhoos and the Tritons are.
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Zadillo
- FB Fan -

23 Posts

Posted - 02/06/2007 :  07:01:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I've got to say, there's something disturbing about the tone of some of these posts. Namely, the stuff about how Shazeb Andleeb wasn't as "heroic" as he is made out to be (who is making him out to be a hero?), and in particular the insinuation that he somehow deserved to be beaten to death because of what kind of person he was or who he hung out with.

I can understand if you are upset that someone was punished for this crime who didn't deserve to be punished in your opinion, but I don't think that justifies insinuating that Shazeb somehow deserved to be beaten to death (not to mention the stuff about a genetic heart condition as a way to somehow remove culpability, even though it sounds like the autopsy doesn't confirm that).

Seriously, no-one deserves to be beaten to death. Frankly, the defense of Christian Bremmer here rings hollow when it is coupled with these ideas that Shazeb somehow deserved to be killed or something. If you want to defend Christian Bremmer and say he was railroaded into a plea bargain, that's fine..... but I don't think it's necessary to downplay what happened.

Again, you are trying to defend Bremmer and Nieves, but then you say that all this is about is "boys having a disagreement which ended up in a fight and one of the boys expiring." - Why phrase it like that? Describing the incident that way makes it sound like Shazeb wasn't beaten to death, but rather just "expired", like it was some unrelated incident that happened. Especially if you are saying Bremmer and Nieves were completely innocent, why is it necessary to describe this incident that way, as if no-one was involved in a murder, but rather Shazeb just "expired".

Seriously, the way you describe this incident, and the way you've discussed Shazeb himself, make me really question what your motivations are. I can't tell if you are saying Bremmer and Nieves had nothing to do with the murder, or if you are saying they were innocent because it was "accidental" or because Shazeb "expired" for some other reason than the beating. It just doesn't make sense to me. If you believe Bremmer and Nieves were innocent of this crime, then why is it even necessary to downplay the crime itself?
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Carl
- A 'Fifth' Catholic -

Ireland
11546 Posts

Posted - 02/06/2007 :  11:16:51  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yeah, it should really be seen in context, how shocking the incident was. The inspiration for the song was FB's shock at hearing this happened in the yard of his former school. I don't know much about the poor boy, but it's not saying that he was some pillar of the community or anything.

Edited by - Carl on 02/06/2007 11:18:05
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CloudNine
- FB Fan -

1 Posts

Posted - 02/06/2007 :  12:27:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I've helped bring the Frank Black article to featured status (along with the Pixies article; they are both among the best articles on Wikipedia), so Wikipedia is hardly a lame resource for Frank Black information :)

The trouble with the Andleeb entry is that the only reference for it may be the song itself. It might be better placed in "The Last Stand of Shazeb Andleeb" article.
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Windsuitor
- FB Fan -

Finland
3 Posts

Posted - 03/15/2007 :  15:41:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hello,

I just got 'The Cult of Ray' today, and was really moved by the last song. So, I had to dig up how Shazeb was and and what the deal is. Reading this discussion, I'm somewhat puzzled. The whole incident is very touching and in complexity, very intresting. Here (in Finland) it's now 1:30 AM and I'm still up reading and pondering this.

I'm not gonna take a side here, but I agree with 'coastline' in the statement that the truth is "likely somewhere in between the two versions". To me it doesn't matter who had done what before the murder. No problems of high school social-life can justify killing. In the end, it's a tragic tale, and I think I understand why Frank wanted to write about it.

I, like many people, was a victim of bullying for years, but I never knew to even be afraid of something like this. Anyway, moved by what I have read, I'm going to write something around the subject sooner or later. (I'm an amateur novelist.)

Thanks for this, and I really hope that the people involved have found ways to move on.
(From this, I also got a nice kick to start posting here. Be seeing you!)
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Carl
- A 'Fifth' Catholic -

Ireland
11546 Posts

Posted - 03/15/2007 :  15:49:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Windsuitor!
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pixiestu
> Teenager of the Year <

United Kingdom
2563 Posts

Posted - 03/15/2007 :  15:53:56  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Welcome. Good first post there, Windsuitor. The exact details of Shazeb's death will only be known by a few people (I admit I know only what I've read from this thread), but whatever the details, the fact still remains that any story like this is tragic.


"The arc of triumph"
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Bedbug
* Dog in the Sand *

2167 Posts

Posted - 05/02/2020 :  12:08:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Coming up on 25 years since.

An amazing song for a horrible event.
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