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KimStanleyRobinson
* Dog in the Sand *
1972 Posts |
 Posted - 09/28/2004 : 09:49:45
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Hey, did you know that there is no eternal heaven or hell? Its true! Its as easy to understand as the difference between 2-D and 3-D! You know, length and width as opposed to length, width and depth.
Think about it like this:
If there were a consciousness in a 2-D plane and a 3-D object passed through it, the consciousness could only percieve the 2-D qualities of the 3-D object. By virtue of the consciousness (lets call it "Noah", just for kicks) being 2-D, it does not have the capacity or ability to percieve the third dimension. If it did, it would become a 3-D consciousness. Make sense? Sure it makes sense!
Now, you can think of yourself- a living, breathing organic thing - as similar to our 2-D consciousness- Noah. You are similar in that you are finite. You are finite because at some point in what you percieve as 'the past' you were 'born' - meaning that the window of consciousness that you are currently experiencing opened. History implies that at some point in 'the future' you will 'die' (true, this is a theory, but it stands a pretty good chance of being proven.)- meaning that the window of consciousness that you are currently experiencing will close. Because of your 'finiteness' you, like Noah not being able to see a third dimension, do not have it within your abilities to see or percieve anything that is larger than finite or, 'in-finite'. Things that are supposed to be 'in-finite' are things like heaven, hell, god or maybe even satan depending upon who you are. You might be able to point at something and say "That thing goes on forever!" but you can't see it go on forever. You can only see it go on as long as you are alive - and that definitely is not infinity.
Basically, this boils down to you having to be honest with yourself about what you are.
The chemicals floating around in your body can do some pretty amazing stuff, like make you feel like a god is telling you what to do or make you feel good after praying or going to confession, but those chemicals become dust when you die and all of those feelings either change into something new or stop altogether. We have no way of knowing if either of these things is even going to happen.
Understand this: I am in no way attempting to offer an explanation for WHY we are alive. I have no idea why and frankly i don't think it matters. All i'm saying is that we ARE alive and only for a while. Naturally, whether or not anything exists at all is debatable in any introductory philosophy course, but in this case we are going to go ahead and say that things DO exist and that we are alive based on the existing definition.
If after we die, our consciousness changes and we suddenly become capable of fully knowing, completely percieving infinite things (at which point, of course, we ourselves will become infinite-like Noah becoming 3D) then that is perfectly okay with me, but it is beyond the scope of this theory. The fact is that we are not dead yet and are currently FINITE beings -which restricts our ability to completely percieve anything that is not finite. So based on this frame of reference, if something begins when i die, then that which begins must also have an end; if i go to a hell, then it is only going to be for a while. Conversely, if i go to a heaven, then it certainly is NOT going to be for eternity. It is best summed up in the statement 'this too will pass.' - and it will!
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the head catatonic from the roller rink |
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remig
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1734 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2004 : 09:58:30
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So why the universe is infinite?
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So you have no point of reference, Donny.
You're like a child that wanders INTO THE MIDDLE OF A MOVIE! |
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Coldheartofstone
* Dog in the Sand *
Canada
2025 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2004 : 10:03:08
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| Good, I'm afraid of forever. |
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KimStanleyRobinson
* Dog in the Sand *
1972 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2004 : 10:04:19
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Fear not, for there is no forever!
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the head catatonic from the roller rink |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2004 : 10:05:56
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Surely, just because we cant perceive something, doesn't mean it doesn't exist?
"You ever seen a man say goodbye to a shoe?"
"Yes, once..." |
Edited by - Cheeseman1000 on 09/28/2004 10:07:06 |
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Coldheartofstone
* Dog in the Sand *
Canada
2025 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2004 : 10:08:10
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| No, it just means our puny brains can't conceive it. |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2004 : 10:11:04
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Right, so thisquote:
Hey, did you know that there is no eternal heaven or hell? Its true!
is a bit sweeping.
"You ever seen a man say goodbye to a shoe?"
"Yes, once..." |
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Daisy Girl
~ Abstract Brain ~
Belize
5305 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2004 : 10:12:37
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| That's interesting. But you're making the assumption that humans are finite based on their physical being-- birth to death. Since it combines the physical being with the soul-- it leaves no room for the infinite capacity of the soul-- existance pre birth-post death. It knocks out the existance of past lives. But yes, in terms of the physical, everything is finite. Interesting theroy, though. |
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remig
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1734 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2004 : 10:14:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Cheeseman1000
Surely, just because we cant perceive something, doesn't mean it doesn't exist?
"You ever seen a man say goodbye to a shoe?"
"Yes, once..."
what's the proof of:
There's no elephant behind your door?
There's no aliens planning to take you for some experiments?
There's no invisble leprechaum following you constantly?
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So you have no point of reference, Donny.
You're like a child that wanders INTO THE MIDDLE OF A MOVIE! |
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KimStanleyRobinson
* Dog in the Sand *
1972 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2004 : 10:17:09
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The dilemma of the realist.
Do I agree?
Well, when we talk about things, I have to say no - things (rocks, cars, people) do exist even though we can't perceive them. However, infinity (eternity) is not a *thing* - it is an abstract - an idea.
A restrictive, cage-like idea used to keep people in line and under control at least in the case of religion.
The argument may support the existence of a cyclic 'infinity' of sorts - more like a Buddhist vision of the afterlife - reincarnation, etc, etc...endless circle.
Perhaps we are the temporary manifestation of something permanent, but while we are temporary, well - we're temporary and so is everything we can know.
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the head catatonic from the roller rink |
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remig
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1734 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2004 : 10:17:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Cheeseman1000
Right, so thisquote:
Hey, did you know that there is no eternal heaven or hell? Its true!
is a bit sweeping.
"You ever seen a man say goodbye to a shoe?"
"Yes, once..."
The right sentence would be : There's no heaven and hell! It's true!
We invented it to make you feel guilty!
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So you have no point of reference, Donny.
You're like a child that wanders INTO THE MIDDLE OF A MOVIE! |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2004 : 10:21:16
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quote:
Originally posted by remig
what's the proof of:
There's no elephant behind your door?
There's no aliens planning to take you for some experiments?
There's no invisble leprechaum following you constantly?
Aliens already have experimented with me, the leprechaun is visible, and there's an elephant behind my door?
I have to agree with Glacial, I don't think your theory proves anything.
"You ever seen a man say goodbye to a shoe?"
"Yes, once..." |
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KimStanleyRobinson
* Dog in the Sand *
1972 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2004 : 10:23:33
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I'm not saying there is no heaven or hell, I'm just saying they aren't eternal.
There may or may not be an elephant behind the door, but I can go check it out.
Stand by...
Nope - no elephant.
Not right now anyway.
lol.
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the head catatonic from the roller rink |
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remig
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1734 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2004 : 10:25:46
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I was thinking of magical elephant.
You know, the one that disapears when you open your door.
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So you have no point of reference, Donny.
You're like a child that wanders INTO THE MIDDLE OF A MOVIE! |
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harringk
- FB Fan -
USA
202 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2004 : 10:38:28
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In my best Black Francis scream:
REPENT! REPENT!!!
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KimStanleyRobinson
* Dog in the Sand *
1972 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2004 : 10:40:03
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No!
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the head catatonic from the roller rink |
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remig
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1734 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2004 : 10:43:57
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quote:
Originally posted by harringk
In my best Black Francis scream:
REPENT! REPENT!!!
I'd rather burn in hell than believe in god or satan! 
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So you have no point of reference, Donny.
You're like a child that wanders INTO THE MIDDLE OF A MOVIE! |
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Daisy Girl
~ Abstract Brain ~
Belize
5305 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2004 : 10:44:30
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| Did you come up with your theroy all by your self? I think it's cool to think about this kind of stuff. |
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Coldheartofstone
* Dog in the Sand *
Canada
2025 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2004 : 10:45:21
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I remember when I was a little girl, my mother used to tell me that when we die we go to heaven, forever. And this scared the shit outta me. I used to sit on the stairs repeating "forever, and ever, and ever..." until I started to hyperventilate. I'd imagine sitting in a large open field contemplating nothing and doing nothing, being bored forever.
Is that normal? |
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Daisy Girl
~ Abstract Brain ~
Belize
5305 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2004 : 10:51:48
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| I think a lot of people are scared of death. Probably more than that would care to admit. So, yes I think it is pretty normal. |
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remig
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1734 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2004 : 10:55:19
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CHoS: It's not normal!!!! Go see a schrink now!!! You'll kill your own children!!!
***********************************************
So you have no point of reference, Donny.
You're like a child that wanders INTO THE MIDDLE OF A MOVIE! |
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KimStanleyRobinson
* Dog in the Sand *
1972 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2004 : 10:55:43
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Yeah, its mine, its old though.
Its my rickety little humanistic science machine designed to free me from eternal damnation.
I layed it out to a preacher once and the conversation ended thus:
Him: "You'll find out soon enough."
Me: "As will you, sir."
Tee hee...
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the head catatonic from the roller rink |
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Ebb Vicious
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1162 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2004 : 11:02:59
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i think your original post could have used a few more revisions. let me scratch the surface...
i do think our perception of time is very limited. your 2D v. 3D analogy is basically good. the 2D being can only perceive a portion of a 3D object as it passes through his plane. likewise, limited as we are, we can only see one moment at a time. why do we see it sequentially, though, is the question? are we passing through an already existing "time" (4D) object? or are we creating this 4D object as we go? |
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KimStanleyRobinson
* Dog in the Sand *
1972 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2004 : 11:20:36
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Memory is the only reason we see time sequentially.
We're not 'passing through' anything if you think about it...or even if you don't think about it.
Time.
Another doozy.
The philosphers say there is no time - we invented the word.
Intersting thing about that, though - the entropy law is based on the assumption that the universe is finite and that the finite amount of energy in the universe will eventually be exhausted. Heat Death= everything stops.
We measure time by occurences - things happening.
No energy = no occurences = no time.
Next time someone tells you to do something faster to save time you can tell them that you're actually wasting time by doing it faster. Doing it slower (using less energy) will actually prolong the existece of the universe as we know it.
lol.
*gets up and walks across undergrad dorm room*
Another beer? I thought those girls were supposed to call...
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the head catatonic from the roller rink |
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harringk
- FB Fan -
USA
202 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2004 : 11:27:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Coldheartofstone
I remember when I was a little girl, my mother used to tell me that when we die we go to heaven, forever. And this scared the shit outta me. I used to sit on the stairs repeating "forever, and ever, and ever..." until I started to hyperventilate. I'd imagine sitting in a large open field contemplating nothing and doing nothing, being bored forever.
Is that normal?
Here is a good description of eternity that would've freaked you out when you were a little girl:
Lyrics from "Randy Describes Eternity" by Built to Spill. CD = Perfect From Now On. Buy it if you don't own it, you'll thank me later.
Every thousand years
This metal sphere
10 times the size of Jupiter
Floats just a few yards past the Earth
You climb on your roof
And take a swipe at it
With a single feather
Hit it once every thousand years
'Till you've worn it down
To the size of a pea
Yeah I'd say thats a long time
But its only half a blink in the place you're gonna be
Where you gonna be?
Where will you spend eternity?
I'm gonna be perfect from now on
I'm gonna be perfect starting now...
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Seriously though, if you've never heard them, you should check them out. Don't worry they aren't a Christian rock band.
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2004 : 11:29:07
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I like those lyrics, very poetic. What sort of music is it?
"You ever seen a man say goodbye to a shoe?"
"Yes, once..." |
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Ebb Vicious
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1162 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2004 : 11:36:08
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i have long been a subscriber to the idea that time is not a dimension and just something we use to try to organize reality for ourselves.
but since we were using the 2D v. 3D analogy i extrapolated. |
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harringk
- FB Fan -
USA
202 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2004 : 11:40:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Cheeseman1000
I like those lyrics, very poetic. What sort of music is it?
"You ever seen a man say goodbye to a shoe?"
"Yes, once..."
I'm not real good at classifying music, I guess they kind of fall into pop, indie, alternative...who knows. Basically just good guitar rock with excellent songwriting and interesting lyrics. |
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KimStanleyRobinson
* Dog in the Sand *
1972 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2004 : 11:45:26
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Right - I guess if I can analogize 2D/3D and finite/infinite, I guess you can do it with 'time'.
I can see it I think - we remember the past, we theorize the future but we only have 'now'...or did have, just a moment ago.
Perhaps time sits up there on the shelf with eternity...nice and pretty...ethereal.
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the head catatonic from the roller rink |
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Ebb Vicious
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1162 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2004 : 12:01:11
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| time is a monkey with a watch and he spins it round and round and then he throws it and it bonks you on the head and that's when you get angry. |
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NimrodsSon
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1938 Posts |
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Homers_pet_monkey
= Official forum monkey =
United Kingdom
17125 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2004 : 14:08:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Ebb Vicious
time is a monkey with a watch and he spins it round and round and then he throws it and it bonks you on the head and that's when you get angry.
Yeah so watch out guys, I'm spinning!
Help me! He keeps making me post!
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KimStanleyRobinson
* Dog in the Sand *
1972 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2004 : 14:11:41
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oW!
Dammit!
C'mere you little...*furniture being knocked over, glass breaking, cat, dog, cattle, sheep sounds*
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the head catatonic from the roller rink |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2004 : 14:35:36
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Yeah, I don't buy into time as a dimension either. It's a construct to organize events and relate their occurence with other events, based on the fact that most things in nature are cyclical. The mysterious powers of pi, and all that...
Eternity is just a definition of infinite time. If time is a human invention or a dimension is irrelevant in this case, as, if time is an invention, then everything is random and is forever changing. Sure, we orbit the sun and have done so for who knows how long, but was it always that way? Surely it won't always be.
If time is a dimension, then the fact that we can only perceive bits of it at a time speaks to Kim's planar dimension theory. We see beginnings and ends, even though time must therefore extend far beyond our own perception, and therefore, relative to us, to infinity.
EDIT - Increased comma usage.
 "Join the Cult of Frank 2.0 / And you'll be enlightened (free for 1.x members)" |
Edited by - Cult_Of_Frank on 09/28/2004 15:39:02 |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2004 : 14:38:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Cult_Of_Frank
The mysterious powers of pie, and all that...
So very, very true.
Dean, that post had far too many commas to make any sort of sense.
"You ever seen a man say goodbye to a shoe?"
"Yes, once..." |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2004 : 14:41:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Cult_Of_Frank
Yeah, I don't buy into time as a dimension either. It's a construct to organize events and relate their occurence with other events, based on the fact that most things in nature are cyclical. The mysterious powers of pi, and all that...
Eternity is just a definition of infinite time. If time is a human invention, or if time is a dimension is irrelevant in this case, as if time is an invention, then everything is random and is forever changing. Sure, we orbit the sun and have done so for who knows how long, but was it always that way? Surely it won't always be. If time is a dimension, then the fact that we can only perceive bits of it at a time speaks to Kim's planar dimension theory. We see beginnings and ends, even though time must therefore extend far beyond our own perception, and therefore, relative to us, to infinity.
"Join the Cult of Frank 2.0 / And you'll be enlightened (free for 1.x members)"
it took me a long time to read that
ist es möglich für ein quesadilla skrotum zu lecken? beim sprechen der quesadillas von LBF, ja. ja in der tatheheheheheheehehee! |
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There is no eternity!
