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n/a
deleted
4894 Posts |
 Posted - 08/16/2004 : 13:06:05
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Gee whizz you are narrow minded, do you hang around ITU making sure they don't switch off the life machines? Do you write to those terminally ill patients in chronic pain detailed letters about why euthenasia isn't a viable option too? Ever hung around a suicide ward and looked at the pain in the peoples eyes and tried to tell them that they are selfish?
It's not selfish, it's the kindest thing I could do, and it's by no means easy mister.
this abortion issue in the States is dividing the country right in half. You know, and even amongst my friends - we're all highly intelligent - they're totally divided on the issue of abortion. Totally divided. Some of my friends think these pro-life people are just annoying idiots. Other of my friends think these pro-life people are evil fucks. How are we gonna have a consensus? I'm torn. I try and take the broad view and think of them as evil, annoying fucks.
Bill Hicks
 I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out.
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Edited by - n/a on 08/16/2004 13:08:06 |
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realmeanmotorscutor
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1764 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2004 : 13:06:25
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I think it's a barbaric world we live in when we go against nature. We aren't aborting unhealthy babies; we're aborting babies based on personal desire.
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2004 : 13:08:02
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I agree with Mr. Scooter to the extent that sex and the results are their responsibility, but if it's their responsibility, shouldn't they also be given the responsibility of what happens pre-birth? If it's obviously such a divisive issue and there are strong proportions of the population in either camp, then shouldn't it be left as an individual choice as opposed to something that's law or not.
Further, I think we can all agree that an unwanted child has it rougher than a wanted/loved child. I don't think abortion is something that should be taken lightly, nor do I think that there are many who do, but isn't aborting before it's born a better choice than bringing a child into a home where it'll be unwanted, unloved, potentially abused? And you can claim all you wish that everyone who doesn't want it puts it up for adoption, but we certainly know that many people don't for whatever reason and hence things like child abuse.
And while pro-lifers like to dodge the question of masturbation murder/ the pill/ other contraceptives, it's a question worth considering... how far in until it's considered a baby and a living, thinking being? There's no definite answer but it isn't immediately after fertilization and it isn't as it makes it's way down the birth canal. So there is some period of time where I'd say it's acceptable, and some period where the fetus is too developed...
In any case, I'd say it's a personal belief and should be left up to the persons involved and capable of making an informed decision as opposed to the leader of the day's own personal opinions. Much like gay marriage, I suppose...
Do we have to legislate everything?
 "When 5000 posts you reach / Look as good you will not, hmmm?" |
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n/a
deleted
4894 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2004 : 13:11:30
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quote:
Originally posted by realmeanmotorscutor
I think it's a barbaric world we live in when we go against nature. We aren't aborting unhealthy babies; we're aborting babies based on personal desire.
would aborting unhealthy babies be different then? Would it be ok to abort a child if you knoew it was going to be disabled.
It's not about personal desire, it's taking all factors into consideration and deciding whats best for yourself and the potential child, I'm not killing babies here
I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out.
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2004 : 13:12:16
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quote:
Originally posted by realmeanmotorscutor
Once again, NO BABY REMAINS UNADOPTED! If you don't want it, give it up!
And more children are abused by their birth parents than foster parents anyway. We just hear about foster cases more often, not that this has anything to do with adoption.
NOT TRUE! September 2001: 126,000 kids were waiting for adoption and over 33,000 of them were less than a year old. I don't want to get in this debate, but I don't like falsehoods presented as facts.
http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/cb/publications/afcars/report8.htm |
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n/a
deleted
4894 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2004 : 13:12:28
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Nimrod that saddens me even further, but doesn't surprise me.
I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out.
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realmeanmotorscutor
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1764 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2004 : 13:12:50
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Well put CoF. Of course we differ on things, but at least it was well put.
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realmeanmotorscutor
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1764 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2004 : 13:17:02
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin
quote:
Originally posted by realmeanmotorscutor
Once again, NO BABY REMAINS UNADOPTED! If you don't want it, give it up!
And more children are abused by their birth parents than foster parents anyway. We just hear about foster cases more often, not that this has anything to do with adoption.
NOT TRUE! September 2001: 126,000 kids were waiting for adoption and over 33,000 of them were less than a year old. I don't want to get in this debate, but I don't like falsehoods presented as facts.
http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/cb/publications/afcars/report8.htm
Those numbers aren't on that page. Could you direct me to where you found them. Also, the information indicates that they were waiting, not that they remained unadopted.
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2004 : 13:17:52
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And I also agree with Erebus that both parents should be involved in the decision and not only the mother... if they can't agree, then some sort of means of giving the resposibility to the parent that wants the child should be implemented.
Someone I know got a girl he'd been dating for half a year pregnant and was totally wanting to be there to support it and be a good father even though they broke up before they even knew she was pregnant, but she took off, didn't leave a forwarding number or anything, and though he tracked her down because one of her friends helped him, he had no say in the name of the kid, and wasn't allowed anywhere near her/the child in the hospital when it was born. Her parents wouldn't let him in the room. He doesn't get to see his kid at all.
Tell me that's fair. Just because he's the male side of the equation.
"When 5000 posts you reach / Look as good you will not, hmmm?" |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2004 : 13:30:29
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quote:
Originally posted by realmeanmotorscutor
quote:
Originally posted by darwin
quote:
Originally posted by realmeanmotorscutor
Once again, NO BABY REMAINS UNADOPTED! If you don't want it, give it up!
And more children are abused by their birth parents than foster parents anyway. We just hear about foster cases more often, not that this has anything to do with adoption.
NOT TRUE! September 2001: 126,000 kids were waiting for adoption and over 33,000 of them were less than a year old. I don't want to get in this debate, but I don't like falsehoods presented as facts.
http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/cb/publications/afcars/report8.htm
Those numbers aren't on that page. Could you direct me to where you found them. Also, the information indicates that they were waiting, not that they remained unadopted.
The numbers I quoted are about half way down the page (you can search for "126,000"). The report also shows that 24% of the kids waiting have been waiting for more than 5 years. |
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VoVat
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
9168 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2004 : 13:46:02
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quote:
My girlfriend would like me to add that while it might be easy for a guy to argue one side or the other, it's also easy for women to argue for pro-choice since they will never be the aborted baby.
Well, maybe if they believe in reincarnation...
Seriously, though, I don't think it's immoral to give more rights to a grown human being than to an unborn baby. I know some people disagree, and I do sympathize with them to a degree, but still. I see it as a POTENTIAL human being, not an actual one.
As for the Christian thing, how did abortion get to be such a major issue for them? I don't think there's anything about it one way or the other in the Bible. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I get the idea that the writers of the Old Testament, with their "be fruitful and multiply" philosophy, wouldn't have approved, but I don't think they ever actually said.
Cattle in Korea / They can really moo. |
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n/a
deleted
4894 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2004 : 13:52:05
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Childbirth isnt natural. I'll let that sink in ............. Childbirth ..... isnt ..... natural. We should all be in The Garden of Eden naming animals, and the fact that we don't know all the names of the animals tells me one thing. We left the Garden too soon. Bill Hicks
I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out.
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realmeanmotorscutor
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1764 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2004 : 14:14:30
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I've done a search for all of those numbers and they don't show up. Is that the right link?
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NimrodsSon
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1938 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2004 : 14:25:14
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quote:
Originally posted by VoVat
As for the Christian thing, how did abortion get to be such a major issue for them? I don't think there's anything about it one way or the other in the Bible. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I get the idea that the writers of the Old Testament, with their "be fruitful and multiply" philosophy, wouldn't have approved, but I don't think they ever actually said.
There is a verse and the Bible that says God knows you before you are born or something to that effect, so a Christian takes that to mean that the unborn baby is a human being with a soul just as much as you and me and that God has a special purpose for his/her life. Therefore, in the Christian point of view, killing the unborn baby is the same as killing a fully developed human.
ˇViva los Católicos! |
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n/a
deleted
4894 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2004 : 14:31:13
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It's not killing an unborn baby if it's still a cluster of undeveloped cells, abortions do occur as late as 24 weeks when there is a question of viability but this is a small number, I'm sick of hearing killing babies, you are expelling something that has the potential to become a baby not a baby
I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out.
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NimrodsSon
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1938 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2004 : 14:36:52
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Good point; I just used "unborn baby" for lack of a better term. Although isn't it after six weeks or so that the heart begins to beat? I think at that point it could be considered something greater than a cluster of cells.
ˇViva los Católicos! |
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TheCroutonFuton
- Mr. Setlists -
USA
1728 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2004 : 14:53:23
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Wow, only 6 weeks?
Sorry about ruffling your feathers this morning, Tre. Was up mighty early for a doctor's appointment in another state and was pretty pissy, so I probably said some things a bit harsh-like.
I also didn't get to add my opinion on the mother or baby dying thing. (Not that most of you want to hear it, obviously..heh.) But yeah, the mother should be saved. That factor totally slipped my mind.
And I think RealMean's "unhealthy baby" post was in response to your "terminally ill patient" post...You were using that as an example and he basically said, as I see it, "These aren't terminally ill babies...that has nothing to do with it.."
Jeeze this is a fun topic...How about a dead baby joke to lighten the mood? *rimshot* (ha, kidding...)
"Freedom is a state of mind and the condition and position of your ass. Free your mind and your ass will follow." - Funkadelic |
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n/a
deleted
4894 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2004 : 15:04:28
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No worries Nate young man, Wasn't really that offended, I'm in a rather grumpy frame of mind at the moment too, forced to take another day of work 'cos of horrendous stomach pains and not being able to keep my food down. booooooo
And I got what he said really, it's just pro-lifers seem so gung ho about saving these "babies" and then don't much care what happens when they're on this earth, a life is a life isn't it? But you don't see pro-lifers knocking around hospices and suicide wards and ITU units shoving pictures of dead grown ups around, seems rather hypocritical to me
I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out.
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NimrodsSon
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1938 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2004 : 15:21:10
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quote:
Originally posted by TheCroutonFuton
Wow, only 6 weeks?
Don't quote me on that, as it's very possible that it's wrong.
ˇViva los Católicos! |
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TheCroutonFuton
- Mr. Setlists -
USA
1728 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2004 : 15:24:02
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I think maybe the point is that they got to live their life and that when you abort a "baby", as you put it, they don't even get that chance. If that makes any sense at all..Also, I keep hearing "I can do what I want with my body."...I think it slips some people's minds that the cell clusters and what not are the beginning of someone else's body, you know? It's all very complicated and weird..
This is going to sound weird, too, but here goes nothing: I wasn't a planned child...My parents give me the "It was a surprise, but when we found out we were glad." thing, and I believe them...but I've often thought to myself, "Wow, I'm so glad my mom didn't get an abortion." It's a really scary thought to me to know that one choice could have nipped my life at the bud. Life can suck a lot sometimes, but generally it's a very beautiful thing and I'm very grateful to have one. I guess that's why my views are what they are. I suppose I just think that had the aborted "babies" lived..that most of them, keyword most, would be grateful to be alive. Sounds weird, I know. Anyways...I'm a rambler and rambling is my fate...and rambling is the only life I know..
"Freedom is a state of mind and the condition and position of your ass. Free your mind and your ass will follow." - Funkadelic |
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pfeffa
= Cult of Ray =
Aruba
367 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2004 : 06:41:44
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| This whole thread makes me terribly sad because I'll never be a mom. :( |
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GypsyDeath
Zapped Profile
3575 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2004 : 08:51:54
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Are you un able to have children pfeffa?
I drink and smoke
Until I choke
Until I'm broke
Cos' I want too
If We Sleep Together, Will You Like Me Better? |
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pfeffa
= Cult of Ray =
Aruba
367 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2004 : 13:27:26
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I'm willing and able, but (I'll call him Pfeff-o) doesn't want any ever.
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2004 : 13:39:13
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Wow, that's tough. I don't think I'd get/stay married to someone who didn't want kids. Unless I secretly harboured some sort of hopes that I could sway her, but that wouldn't be a very healthy thing either. But everyone's priorities are different I suppose...
"When 5000 posts you reach / Look as good you will not, hmmm?" |
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TameReg
- FB Fan -
USA
110 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2004 : 13:44:08
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6 weeks is probably right. My wife is pregnant, and at 7 weeks we went to the doctors, and we could hear the heartbeat through the ultrasound. I didn't want to get into this debate, but when you hear the heartbeat and see the "baby" it's hard not to think of it as a living creature.
I also agree that father's rights seem to be trampled with this issue. It seem's he has no rights no matter what the woman decides to do. |
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Homers_pet_monkey
= Official forum monkey =
United Kingdom
17125 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2004 : 14:03:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Tre
It's not killing an unborn baby if it's still a cluster of undeveloped cells, abortions do occur as late as 24 weeks when there is a question of viability but this is a small number, I'm sick of hearing killing babies, you are expelling something that has the potential to become a baby not a baby
I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out.
Kind of like frying an egg?
_________________________________________________________
Live every day as if it were your last. Eventually you'll be right
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n/a
deleted
4894 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2004 : 14:06:25
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eggs are like chicken periods, but I guess another cluster of cells with the potential for baby making yes
I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out.
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Homers_pet_monkey
= Official forum monkey =
United Kingdom
17125 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2004 : 14:55:55
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"Mmmmmmmm, I'll have a Sausage & Chicken Period Muffin please"
_________________________________________________________
Live every day as if it were your last. Eventually you'll be right
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n/a
deleted
4894 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2004 : 14:57:23
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exactly why I try never to eat eggs, euk
I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out.
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VoVat
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
9168 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2004 : 17:12:53
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quote:
There is a verse and the Bible that says God knows you before you are born or something to that effect
But wouldn't an omnipotent God presumably also know someone before they were conceived? That doesn't really strike me as supporting a life-begins-at-conception philosophy.
Cattle in Korea / They can really moo. |
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NimrodsSon
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1938 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2004 : 18:40:02
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Well, it doesn't make sense to me either; that's just the argument my Calvanist father gives me every time we get into a debate over abortion.
ˇViva los Católicos! |
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NimrodsSon
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1938 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2004 : 18:42:56
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"My substance was not hidden from Thee, when I was made in secret, and intricately wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unformed; and in Thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them. "—Psalm 739: 15-16.
ˇViva los Católicos! |
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Daisy Girl
~ Abstract Brain ~
Belize
5305 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2004 : 19:02:49
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Tre and Gypsy and anyone else not in the US,
Just wondering if the pro/anti choice debate is as political in your countries.
It has seemed strange for me for awhile that many people including myself vote for a certain party just becasue of that issue alone. Honestly, I really think it should be a decision between the woman, the man who got her pregnant and her doctor.
Do any countires have a more enlightened view? How accessable are abortions... I would say here women might have to wait a month or so and travel up to a day or so.
Thanks |
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n/a
deleted
4894 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2004 : 02:57:35
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To be honest, I don't really think it is such an issue here, I have friends who work in abortion clinics and I got offered a job in one and they never tell me of the fierce protesting outside on a daily basis 'cos it doesn't happen. In fact, there has been abortion debating in the news recently because of cut off points rather than wether or not it should be allowed, this is why I had a shock that it was an advertisable pro in politics. I think if a major party here tried that they'd drop votes like billy-o.
But religion is a less played card too, there's less emphasis on it because there is a really strong and really lovely multicultural vibe here and to alienate religious groups would also drop votes like crazy, but saying that BNP *shudder*
I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out.
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Daisy Girl
~ Abstract Brain ~
Belize
5305 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2004 : 11:51:46
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Thanks Tre. It's interesting to see what things are like around the world.
I think the protests in the US vary...I think in bigger cities it might be more of an issue... but the small town where I went to college only had an older couple that protested.
Recently, in the city where I now live there was a big truck with anti-choice pictures and a airplane carrying a similar banner. It was very in your face and I thought it was in poor taste. |
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