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RJB
- FB Fan -
Canada
15 Posts |
 Posted - 08/01/2004 : 05:51:22
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I realize I'm going to take some heat from all the drones and cultees but I'll go ahead and say it anyway...
I think Frank Black is too prolific
He needs to be a harsher critic with his own material. His last four albums are each at least one-third filler material. The reason I say this is because I'm actually a rabid FB fan and I would love to see him propelled to the heights and glory that his talent could take him.If he cut out some of his weaker songs from album to album I would have even more respect for the guy as a songwriter. Imagine adding consistency to his list of attributes?
And just so nobody gets too livid about my blasphemy I want to let you all know I firmly believe FB is the greatest singer-songwriter of the last 15 years...its just, well, I think he could do even better if he filtered out a bit more and slowed down. I think FB should go and work on an album for a year or two and come out with a masterpiece, I think if anyone is capable of such a thing it would be him.
What do you think?
When a woman has hands |
Edited by - RJB on 08/01/2004 06:02:54 |
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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Netherlands
6013 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2004 : 06:47:01
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which songs on smyt are filler?
 "I joined the Cult of Frank/Nobody wanted to join my Culf" |
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oddball
- FB Fan -
Germany
233 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2004 : 06:54:13
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What songs are filler period? One of the things that makes Frank Black such a great song writer IS his ability to consistently put out masterpieces. He sets the bar for others to follow...attempt to follow I should say. To be honest, I would actually say there is more "filler" on pixies albums than on Frank Black albums.
Whenever people play Frank Black survivor on this board, each person has different opinions about what is the best song(s) on certain albums. Take ANY song on ANY album and it will be someones favorite...and at the same time this SAME song will be labelled as filler by someone else. That's the nature of music. I dont think the term filler should be used in the same breath with Frank Black until a song comes out that EVERYONE feels unanimously is filler...and that aint going to happen!
If "more" means "filler" then bring on the fucking "filler" |
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BLT
> Teenager of the Year <
South Sandwich Islands
4204 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2004 : 07:02:25
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| You say his last four albums are 1/3 filler. So that would include Dog In The Sand. What qualifies as filler on that album? IMHO only the silence between the songs is fit to be removed. |
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NimrodsSon
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1938 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2004 : 12:13:40
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The only album period of Frank Black's that I would say might have a couple filler tracks is Black Letter Days, and the filler songs on it aren't bad songs at all, they just either sound unfinished or aren't fully produced to the extent that I would like them to be. Either way, If he didn't put these "filler tracks" on his albums, wouldn't you still be begging to hear them and then end up having to buy another b-sides album or get more bootlegs, when you could just have them on the album?
ˇViva los Católicos y la Pistolaa! |
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CaptainMaximus
- FB Fan -
126 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2004 : 12:31:31
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Although I love all of FB's stuff, I think most people here are likely to overlook the fact that our biases don't make us the best objective judges of FB's work. For this reason, I think it's very easy to imagine what might be heard as filler to the unitiated, or the more casual fan. Lots of BLD and Devil's Workshop, in my opinion, might be construed as a little more off-hand and tossed-off than Dog in the Sand, for instance; take a song like The Scene---while it's easy to imagine a lot of us liking it, what would a casual listener think?
I think FB's quality department is in ship-shape, but to say he doesn't have some filler is just ridiculous. Some songs and albums are going to be stronger than others. |
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Monsieur
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1688 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2004 : 12:38:55
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I agree that sometimes there is some filler, like on Devil's Workshop, for instance.
Yhat is why I really liked SMYT, because I really like each song on that album!
When I first heard the guitar riff on Robert Onion, I knew that the good old Frank was back.
After hearing SMYT, he was my favorite artist again. |
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oddball
- FB Fan -
Germany
233 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2004 : 12:56:53
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Strong and less strong are valid parameters for describing Frank Black's output...but filler? I mean, there is a major difference between a "weaker" song and outright filler, right?
With the song "The Scene", lets see if anyone steps up now and says that is their favorite song off of Devils Workshop. |
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RJB
- FB Fan -
Canada
15 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2004 : 15:09:44
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quote:
Originally posted by billgoodman
which songs on smyt are filler?
"I joined the Cult of Frank/Nobody wanted to join my Culf"
My Favorite Kiss
The Snake
Coastline
This Old Heartache
Everything is New
See these songs in my opinion are pretty weak, I mean, its all relative obviously so if you put any of these songs on most "Artists" albums and they would be the stand-out tracks but not so on an FB album. The height of FB's power on SMYT can be felt on Massif Centrale. The aforementioned songs that I deem filler just don't compare.
Someone was saying well, 'why would he cut lesser songs out when we would go out and get them on a B-sides comp. anyway' and I say that's exactly what he should do cuz B-side comps are exactly that...a place where the "weaker" songs that would pollute a studio album end up. I would love to see a big honkin B-sides comp from fb and that way he could keep his studio albums pure and free from the weaker tracks.
Anyway this is just my opinion and most of my friends agree with me. I agree with the point that its all so subjective that maybe any objective ratification might be-be fruitless.
Frank Booth: Here's to your f*ck!
Ben: Here's to your f*ck, Frank.
-"Blue Velvet" |
Edited by - RJB on 08/01/2004 15:23:26 |
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Jason
* Dog in the Sand *
1446 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2004 : 15:52:48
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"My Favorite Kiss" and "This Old Heartache" are my two favorite songs on SMYT. If those are your definition of filler then youse and I are on totally different planets.
I like Frank's album-a-year rate of output. That's how they did it in the 60s and 70s and I think they had the right idea. |
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RJB
- FB Fan -
Canada
15 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2004 : 16:15:15
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quote:
Originally posted by BLT
You say his last four albums are 1/3 filler. So that would include Dog In The Sand. What qualifies as filler on that album? IMHO only the silence between the songs is fit to be removed.
You're right Dog in the sand is great...leave that one out. But then add pistolero
Frank Booth: Here's to your f*ck!
Ben: Here's to your f*ck, Frank.
-"Blue Velvet" |
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VoVat
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
9168 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2004 : 17:50:58
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I really think the term "filler" gets thrown around too much. I don't know the official definition, but I tend to think of "filler" as something that's thrown on an album just to make it longer, or to provide a break between the good songs. But some people use it to mean any short song, or even any song they personally don't like. I certainly don't think "Everything Is New" is filler, for instance. Wasn't it a single?
As for Frank releasing too much, well, it's not an unrealistic accusation, but I can't really agree with it. That's probably partially because I'm a fan who wants to hear everything, and because I like long albums, though.
Has anyone actually known of somebody being turned off by Frank because he releases too many songs?
Cattle in Korea / They can really moo. |
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NimrodsSon
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1938 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2004 : 19:48:06
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I think we've come to the conclusion that we all have completely different definitions of "filler" tracks and pretty soon this will become a pointless debate.
ˇViva los Católicos y la Pistolaa! |
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whoreatthedoor
> Teenager of the Year <
Spain
2873 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2004 : 01:35:14
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As I have always said, I like Pixies songs over Frank solo or Catholic stuff, but I'm pretty sure (And Frank will agree with me) that his unique filler period will be dated around "Trompe le Monde".
You know, my meaning for the word "filler", is something you write with the intention to finish it quickly, without loving it really. Slam-Bam!, you know  . This doesn't mean they could be great songs. I love some filler tracks.
And I should say I agree with a thing. Frank must be less prolific. Not for making filler or weak songs (There isn't a weak song in SMYT), but for make us fans die for a new recording. If you release a lot of things, people use to underrate you. It happens, really. It has happened to me too! (Not in music field)
But as I said above, Frank Black (Not Black Francis) has never edited a filler.
 "Join the Cult of the whore at the door / And You'll find no answers, but real fun" |
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ivandivel
= Cult of Ray =
394 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2004 : 02:04:29
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quote:
Originally posted by whoreatthedoor
As I have always said, I like Pixies songs over Frank solo or Catholic stuff, but I'm pretty sure (And Frank will agree with me) that his unique filler period will be dated around "Trompe le Monde".
....
But as I said above, Frank Black (Not Black Francis) has never edited a filler.
"Join the Cult of the whore at the door / And You'll find no answers, but real fun"
Fillers on trompe le monde? Right. And does that include Bossanova and Frank Black? And what does "Frank Black (Not Black Francis) has never edited a filler" mean?
I always thought that filler tracks were tracks necessary to release material as a complete album. You have 2-3 killer tracks, 4 pretty good ones - and a couple of fillers - and you have a pretty good album actually. Thus - to be a little academical - a filler is not defined by it's quality but by its function on the album. Further - what was included as a filler may very well be perceived as a killer.
Anyway - Frank Black's material is a gigantic buffet and we are free to dive into it and eat eat eat and eat whatever we like. I'd like it to stay that way. He can't please us all - so he should please himself. And if he is pleased by putting out this much - great for us - and we can filter out the stuff that doesn't suit out taste.
We have been served with a bunch of 2-track recordings - some fantastic and some so so - and now we'll soon get a multitrack-recording again - with new people. I can't complain.
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whoreatthedoor
> Teenager of the Year <
Spain
2873 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2004 : 02:34:00
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quote:
Originally posted by ivandivel
quote:
Originally posted by whoreatthedoor
As I have always said, I like Pixies songs over Frank solo or Catholic stuff, but I'm pretty sure (And Frank will agree with me) that his unique filler period will be dated around "Trompe le Monde".
....
But as I said above, Frank Black (Not Black Francis) has never edited a filler.
"Join the Cult of the whore at the door / And You'll find no answers, but real fun"
Fillers on trompe le monde? Right. And does that include Bossanova and Frank Black? And what does "Frank Black (Not Black Francis) has never edited a filler" mean?
Well, that was my way to refer the Charles Thomson Pixies period (This is not totally correct, 'cause he is still Black Francis). About Trompe, this doesn't mean it's a bad album. But well, I think he wants to finish it in a hurry (And I'm pretty sure it was exactly what he wants to do in that moment).
"Join the Cult of the whore at the door / And You'll find no answers, but real fun" |
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PsychicTwin
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1772 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2004 : 07:51:56
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quote:
Originally posted by RJB
quote:
Originally posted by billgoodman
which songs on smyt are filler?
"I joined the Cult of Frank/Nobody wanted to join my Culf"
My Favorite Kiss
The Snake
Coastline
This Old Heartache
Everything is New
I know it all comes down to opinion...
but how do you justify calling "Coastline" filler?? that is just insane. the song is great. |
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vilainde
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Niue
7438 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2004 : 08:02:24
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To me the only song played by Frank that I would consider being a "filler" is Bam Thowk. And it's not even written by Frank. So there.
Denis
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Jason
* Dog in the Sand *
1446 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2004 : 10:25:25
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"Space (I Belive In)" admits that it's filler in the lyrics ("we needed something to fill up the space...").
Anyway those of you for whom ONE Frank Black album a year is way too much to handle should stick to bands like REM. They push out something once every four or five years.
For the past few years, Frank has made music for the "cult". And that means that each album doesn't have to be A Rare Event. He already has a loyal cult following who will want it and no amount of time or effort in between is going to expand that cult by leaps and bounds. It's not gonna happen.
Lots of artists in all fields of art stay consistently active year-in year-out. They don't build up to a big statement every 4 years. They continue to create because that's what they do. They keep going. It's their job. An artist (or some of them, at least) is a lot like a farmer in some ways. A farmer doesn't take a three-year break from growing corn. He's out there every season keeping the fields fertile. Frank's always gone be around. He's a farmer, he's a soldier, blah blah.
If that annoys you then maybe you oughta go back to analyzing the Pixies reunion setlists (which is probably the reason you came to this board in the first place). |
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the tolerant
= Cult of Ray =
298 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2004 : 11:01:48
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its all opinions and whose is the best.....who knows. but i'm with the crowd on this one RJB. fillers? frank? not to be said so easily and with conviction in the same sentence. just wanted to add my opinion on this one soon as i saw 'everything is new' up for an award for top filler.
no way. its one of my fave off SMYT.
Frank is prolific but if i had my way i'd have cds upon discs of all his throw away songs. the ones none of us will ever here. bet theres a few gems out there. |
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VoVat
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
9168 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2004 : 11:46:48
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Has Frank really even released that much in the way of albums? The Pixies have four regular albums, one mini-album, a live album, and a B-sides collection. Under the Frank Black name, there were nine regular albums and a rarities collection. That's nothing to sneeze at, certainly, but I'm sure you can find plenty of artists who have released more. It's not an especially daunting catalog. It could easily BECOME one if he keeps up his present pace, though.
Cattle in Korea / They can really moo. |
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RJB
- FB Fan -
Canada
15 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2004 : 15:43:11
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quote:
If that annoys you then maybe you oughta go back to analyzing the Pixies reunion setlists (which is probably the reason you came to this board in the first place).
foolish conclusion
Frank Booth: Here's to your f*ck!
Ben: Here's to your f*ck, Frank.
-"Blue Velvet" |
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DruggedBunny
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
395 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2004 : 17:39:08
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quote:
"we needed something to fill up the space..."
He said at the time that this referred to the track lacking something, hence Jef Feldman providing the (aural) space filler with tablas and dumbek (whatever the hell they actually are)...
--
"Nothing to do about it..." |
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vigorstrength
- FB Fan -
87 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2004 : 17:49:55
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quote:
My Favorite Kiss
The Snake
Coastline
This Old Heartache
Everything is New
See these songs in my opinion are pretty weak,
Are you insane? Some of these are the greatest folk songs ever written.. the snake simply needs to be turned up to eleven.
_______
www.againandagain.net - dynamic acoustic rock |
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Jason
* Dog in the Sand *
1446 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2004 : 00:47:24
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In the past 11 years (post-Pixies), Frank's put out 10 studio albums (counting Oddballs).
In his first 11 years making records, Bob Dylan put out at least 12 studio albums (two of them doubles).
In their first 11 years, the Rolling Stones released 15 studio albums. And the Kinks also put out about 15 LPs in 11 years.
In his first 11 years as a solo (or 'with Crazy Horse' guy) Neil Young put out about 13 albums of new material. And that's not counting his work with CSN&Y.
In 7 years, the Beatles put out 12 studio albums and enough singles to fill at least two more LPs.
Get more familiar with classic rock and Frank's rate of output seems pretty normal and traditional. |
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vilainde
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Niue
7438 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2004 : 01:00:20
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Totally agree with Jason. We could add:
Roxy Music: from 1972 to 1982, 10 albums plus 5 by Bryan Ferry solo.
David Bowie: from 1969 to 1979, 12 studio albums.
Led Zeppelin: from 1969 to 1976, 7 studio albums.
Hüsker Dü: in 6 years, 8 studio albums.
and the list goes on and on...
Denis
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11674 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2004 : 07:29:23
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Well put Jason.
 "When 5000 posts you reach / Look as good you will not, hmmm?" |
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remig
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1734 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2004 : 10:42:41
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quote:
Originally posted by vilainde
To me the only song played by Frank that I would consider being a "filler" is Bam Thowk. And it's not even written by Frank. So there.
Denis
I agree with you Denis.
SMYT: No filler, all killer!
A filler: studio outakes on early beach boys album for example (you hear them practicing in studio) but they did 23 Lp in 10 years! |
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Blaireau Man
- FB Fan -
France
16 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2004 : 11:21:32
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this old hertach and everything is new are weak??? that's 2 of the best songs on the album!!!!
NH3 OH I LOve YoU So Much |
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RJB
- FB Fan -
Canada
15 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2004 : 14:36:13
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ok, what did I expect?
you're all right and I am wrong Frank Black's songs are like your children you must love them all the same; one's no better than the next and ...and ...and.
bah
Frank Booth: Here's to your f*ck!
Ben: Here's to your f*ck, Frank.
-"Blue Velvet" |
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usedtobenavajo
- FB Fan -
USA
27 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2004 : 15:02:12
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I agree with jason. But frank is still pretty prolific: In their first 5 years of exsistence, FB and the catholics released 7 lps worth of studio album material (Black letter days would be a 2lp on vinyl.) In the first 7 years of his career (counting pixies), frank released 7 lps of material (TOTY was a double of course) containing exactly 3 covers. the rest are originals. Impressive.
So Im headed for the stereo store, to get a white noise maker, and turn it up to ten. |
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n/a
deleted
4894 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2004 : 15:02:36
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well you've got to expect opinion to differ from yours, some people like different tracks is all.. one mans filler is another mans thriller... thats a fucking awfull analogy
Frank Black ate my Hamster
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usedtobenavajo
- FB Fan -
USA
27 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2004 : 15:15:55
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And furthermore (I just thought of this) has had 15 albums (17 lps) in 17 years WHILE reinventing himself 3 times. Alt rock innovator- pop rock tunesmith - garage rocker - folk-rock singer-songwriter. AND he has 2-3 (who knows what to believe with the pixies) albums ready for release.
He could have easily worked on the 60's-70's schedule
So Im headed for the stereo store, to get a white noise maker, and turn it up to ten. |
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Jason
* Dog in the Sand *
1446 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2004 : 18:52:35
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quote:
Originally posted by usedtobenavajo
And furthermore (I just thought of this) has had 15 albums (17 lps) in 17 years WHILE reinventing himself 3 times. Alt rock innovator- pop rock tunesmith - garage rocker - folk-rock singer-songwriter. AND he has 2-3 (who knows what to believe with the pixies) albums ready for release.
He could have easily worked on the 60's-70's schedule
I actually think one reason why rock music today is often less exciting and less forward-moving than it used to be (in my opinion, of course) is because the 60s and 70s schedule isn't the norm anymore.
Up until the early 80s or so most signed musicians were obligated to put out something new every year. But today the music business is so bloated that most labels milk what they can from one record for at least two years before they're ready to even consider putting out something new.
And I s'pose there are pros and cons to that for everybody, but I think one result is that lots of the chatted-about musicians these days don't evolve in very interesting ways. The Beatles, Bob Dylan, and David Bowie, etc. evolved constantly and did so much in so short a time because they had to. They had to deliver new music every year.
A few musicians these days keep up that fight (and have the loyal cult followings to justify annual releases). Other than Frank, I believe The Melvins are pretty consistent about putting out new stuff each year. And GbV, of course. |
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robotblood
- FB Fan -
24 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2004 : 00:01:42
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jason...
funny you mention GBV, because i was about to present bob pollard as somebody who could be considered too prolific and somebody without the ability to self-edit. i think it has hurt his chances of making a major impact on the commercial rock market and will limit him to being an indie rock hero (not so shabby). if you're releasing a minimum of 40 songs to the public each year, for over 10 years, something must suffer. don't get me wrong, i'm a huge fan... but i can understand how most mainstream types don't GET the GBV.
with that said, i don't think frank is prolific to a fault. he's a working musician with a penchant for songwriting. while 4 LPs in 3 years might seem like alot to digest, it's not much more than many indie rock bands release in the same amount of time. i regards to the original post, frank current style of music will NEVER reach the heights of glory RJB is looking for. even the recent straight rock stuff is too weird for the general population.. and that's a good thing from where i'm sitting. |
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Skatealex1
* Dog in the Sand *
1645 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2004 : 00:30:49
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I want to add that I wouldn't mind if Frank Black released a new cd every 4 months :)
The Truth Is Out There |
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FB too prolific..yesm
