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gracie
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
573 Posts |
 Posted - 07/03/2004 : 08:53:19
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Not the animal, the film. I've just seen it and i was really impressed. For those who haven't seen it, it's about an American high school and two boys that shoot it up Columbine style, directed by Gus Van Sant.
It was interesting that it offered no possible explanation for why two kids would do something like that and for most of the film (the first hour) it focused on the everyday kids in an ordinary American highschool and not the killers. You actually learn a very limited about about them and their motivations and it's a film that requires you to do most of the thinking.
The violence was really stark and it makes you realise how stylised and glamourised violence is in films.
Anyway have any of you seen it? What did you think? |
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TheCroutonFuton
- Mr. Setlists -
USA
1728 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2004 : 09:31:33
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It was okay. Nothing brilliant. Just two kids killing other kids with fully automatic weapons and "shottie's". Not to mention a gay, underaged shower scene. "I've never been kissed before." "Yeah, me neither." "Let's make out in the shower." "Okay."
I think it just seemed to be the hip thing to make a movie about. Did you notice how video-games were still one of the motives? That kid programmed his own video game with kids running away from him and he'd shoot them in the back and their head would stick in the snow. Dumb, dumb, dumb. It's just trendy. Then to end with "Catch a tiger by the toe. If he hollers let him go...Eenie, meanie, miny, moe..." was dumb.
That ending ruined every sub-plot it had going for it. The kid with the alcoholic father. The anorexic teenage girl squad (Let's go get SOOOO pretty! Aight, aight, aight!), the boyfriend/girlfriend, the photographer, the outcast librarian girl. Dumb.
"Freedom is a state of mind and the condition and position of your ass. Free your mind and your ass will follow." - Funkadelic |
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mun chien andalusia
= Quote Accumulator =
Italy
2139 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2004 : 09:34:31
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i saw it the other day. one of the most boring films ever. maybe i was expecting much because of all the hype behind it but i was extremely dissapointed.
 join the cult of errol\and you can have a beer\without having to quit smoking
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gracie
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
573 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2004 : 10:27:54
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My botyfriend hated it as well, i must be the only person who actually liked it.
I thought the gay shower scene was quite sweet. These kids were willing to go on a murderous rampage but didn't want to die virgins. |
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TheCroutonFuton
- Mr. Setlists -
USA
1728 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2004 : 10:35:51
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I don't think they had sex...
"Freedom is a state of mind and the condition and position of your ass. Free your mind and your ass will follow." - Funkadelic |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2004 : 10:38:41
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quote:
Originally posted by TheCroutonFuton
That ending ruined every sub-plot it had going for it. The kid with the alcoholic father. The anorexic teenage girl squad (Let's go get SOOOO pretty! Aight, aight, aight!), the boyfriend/girlfriend, the photographer, the outcast librarian girl. Dumb.
guess i don't need to see it now |
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TheCroutonFuton
- Mr. Setlists -
USA
1728 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2004 : 10:50:02
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Oops, guess I forgot to say it would be a "Spoiler", huh? Oh well, the movie spoils itself like bad milk as it is.
"Freedom is a state of mind and the condition and position of your ass. Free your mind and your ass will follow." - Funkadelic |
Edited by - TheCroutonFuton on 07/03/2004 10:50:31 |
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The Holiday Son
= Quote Accumulator =
France
2010 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2004 : 11:29:24
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Not a great film but brilliant direction (and I'm far from being a Gus Van Sant fan!).
And yes, the video game bit wasn't needed. |
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frank_black_francis
= Cult of Ray =
Canada
895 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2004 : 11:39:02
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| Couldve been a short film and gotten the same point across.....after about 20 minutes, you say okay I get it....now get on with it. |
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TheCroutonFuton
- Mr. Setlists -
USA
1728 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2004 : 11:46:21
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Hahaha, exactly! "Alright. Just kill them already."
"Freedom is a state of mind and the condition and position of your ass. Free your mind and your ass will follow." - Funkadelic |
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El Barto
= Song DB Master =
USA
4020 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2004 : 15:20:13
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It looks like a movie I'd really enjoy. I almost bought the DVD but it was pretty costly.
Boycott cults and t's |
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frank_black_francis
= Cult of Ray =
Canada
895 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2004 : 16:02:04
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| dont buy it....rent it....believe me, even if you want to have a heady or artsy take on the film...believe me there's time. |
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frank_black_francis
= Cult of Ray =
Canada
895 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2004 : 16:03:11
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quote:
Originally posted by TheCroutonFuton
Hahaha, exactly! "Alright. Just kill them already."
Hahahaha....its true! |
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TarTar
* Dog in the Sand *
1965 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2004 : 16:40:24
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Almost rented this recently, but my roommate and I decided to get Bad(der) Santa instead. Sounds like Elephant would have been better. Bad Santa, while funny at a few moments, was definitely stupid. Not that I expected it to be anything great, but it gets old pretty fast.
"There is a new craze in the nation/ it is lamination/ we like to laminate/ we laminate our driver's license/ so cannot be changed" |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2004 : 17:49:35
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BAD SANTA was bad, but there were some priceless scenes in it. i loved Billy Bob Thornton in it, but ultimately it was a sad disappointment. it had so much going for it: produced by the Coen brothers, directed by Terry Zwigoff (GHOST WORLD), black comedy about a fucked up, alcoholic guy who plays Santa in shopping malls. it's a shame.
on a name-drop related note: a friend of mine worked directly with Gus Van Sant on ELEPHANT (and GERRY) in editing. he edits his own films (since GERRY) and she was his assistant.
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frank_black_francis
= Cult of Ray =
Canada
895 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2004 : 18:23:36
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| Wow...I really liked Bad Santa....thought it was funny all the way thru. |
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Little Black Francis
> Teenager of the Year <
3648 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2004 : 21:13:04
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I haven't seen either one.
I never heard of Elephant. I really want to see it now. How old is it?
I thought this thread was about the only White Stripes album I actually listen to... not the animal or the movie
giocare al golf? |
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gracie
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
573 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2004 : 03:35:48
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Not very old, it was realised in the UK in January this year so would have been released in the USA late last year.
As far as buying it goes, it wouldn't. Despite the fact that i really liked it, its not the sort of thing your going to watch alot. It would get boring pretty quickly.
Another plus point for the film was John was really cute and i liked his t shirt. |
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TarTar
* Dog in the Sand *
1965 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2004 : 11:35:56
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What? Kids shooting up a school getting old fast? Wow, we are very different people, gracie.
"There is a new craze in the nation/ it is lamination/ we like to laminate/ we laminate our driver's license/ so cannot be changed" |
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gracie
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
573 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2004 : 13:37:16
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| I was talking about how old the film is, not the the concept of kids shooting up their school. See the post directly above mine. |
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TarTar
* Dog in the Sand *
1965 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2004 : 13:39:38
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Well, no, you said it would get pretty boring quickly, which is a different way of saying something would get old quickly.
"There is a new craze in the nation/ it is lamination/ we like to laminate/ we laminate our driver's license/ so cannot be changed" |
Edited by - TarTar on 07/04/2004 13:40:44 |
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gracie
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
573 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2004 : 13:55:36
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It think it's a film that would get boring quickly if you watched it too many times, as you might if you bought it instead of renting iT.
I think that the film is quite unique in its structure and slow pace, but after you had seen it a few times you would be used to it and watching kids in highschool for an hour may get boring. I found the film very enjoyable but others found that it dragged alittle and i think i, and probably others, would find that it did drag if i saw it more than once or twice.
I was not suggesting the concept of children killing other children in school or anywhere else for that matter, was old or boring in the sense that it "was so last season". Just the the structure of the film did not particulary lend itself to repeated viewing.
By all means don't take my word for it, watch it yourself. |
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Monsieur
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1688 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2004 : 04:35:16
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| I liked Elephant, the direction was OK, and it was not boring. Not a very important film though, it certainly didn't deserve the Palme d'Or. |
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Scarla O
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
947 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2004 : 07:33:25
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I think Elephant was an excellent film. At no point in the film is Gus Vant Sant trying to provide any sort of causal explanation for the shootings. You are missing the point of the video game scene - if you can remember, one of the boys is playing the piano for the duration that the other is playing the 'violent computer game' but BOTH of them are involved in the killings that follow. It is impossible to pinpoint the boys' motivation - if you try you inevitably end up having to suggest that enjoying piano playing is 'as dangerous' as enjoying violent video games.
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Edited by - Scarla O on 07/05/2004 07:49:48 |
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GypsyDeath
Zapped Profile
3575 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2004 : 07:46:26
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I really liked it. As some one else said the direction of this film was superb, And allmy other points have already been mentioned here.
Just thought I'd throw that in there... |
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GypsyDeath
Zapped Profile
3575 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2004 : 08:02:37
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Monieur - surely scarla O point about the piano and video games make it a farily important film in the sense it recognises that these outside influences arent what turn kids in to serial killers?
Just thought I'd throw that in there... |
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gracie
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
573 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2004 : 09:44:34
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I read an interview with Gus Van Sant and he actually said that there is no one reason for why people do that and he himself had no clue so how could he provide one in his film?
I agree with Scarla O in that although those kids did play violent video games and watched Hitler documentries this was not put forward as a reason. Lots of people plays violent video games and have an intrest in the 2nd world war but this doesn't make them killers.
I also liked the fact that one of the killers shot the other one, i really wasn't expecting that. |
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n/a
deleted
4894 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2004 : 10:02:32
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Thought you meant the album... I could even here the dum dum dum dum dum duuuum duuuuuuum in my head and everything
Frank Black ate my Hamster
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TheCroutonFuton
- Mr. Setlists -
USA
1728 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2004 : 11:58:51
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No, no. I didn't say the video-game was the number 1 motive. It's just dumb that they included it at all. Hell, the kid who was playing the video-games was like, "Dude, that was awesome." and the kid who was playing the piano fucked up and got all pissed. But just the fact that they brought video-games into it at all is dumb and stereotpyical.
"Freedom is a state of mind and the condition and position of your ass. Free your mind and your ass will follow." - Funkadelic |
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TarTar
* Dog in the Sand *
1965 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2004 : 16:00:43
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Well, sometimes life is dumb. Sometimes life falls into stereotypes.
I liked the film, but I found most of the non-killing scenes to be nice to watch just for the cinematography. It was mesmerizing watching the shots go on and on, getting lost inside of them.
I just wish I could have scene those snotty bolemic girls get capped. I mean, it was implied they did, but come on, let's see some blood and guts.
"There is a new craze in the nation/ it is lamination/ we like to laminate/ we laminate our driver's license/ so cannot be changed" |
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offerw
* Dog in the Sand *
South Africa
1264 Posts |
Posted - 08/09/2004 : 01:51:08
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I saw Elephant last night. An excellent film. I liked how the timeline was mixed up a bit and a few scenes connect from a different perspective untill it all ties up at the end with the killings.
On the DVD Van Sant is interviewed and he points out that he was not trying to show any reason for the kids turning into killers, he just imagined what a regular day for these kids would be like.
The lives of all the kids in the film might seem boring because he was showing just that, a regular day in the life of a bunch of kids at school. That is why the ending is so sad, they're all young kids living a dull everyday existence and then they get killed halfway through this day. They get no further chance at life.
wilhelm |
Edited by - offerw on 08/09/2004 07:57:06 |
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buymeasoda
- FB Fan -
19 Posts |
Posted - 08/09/2004 : 03:09:07
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I thought it was a terrible movie.
 "I Joined The Cult of Zoid / Friends, a guinea pig tricked me!" |
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cindy lou
- FB Fan -
141 Posts |
Posted - 08/09/2004 : 03:47:07
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| i really enjoyed that movie as well gracie... beautifully shot and i loved the actors in it. thought they did a great job. one of the better movies that came out last year that i see. |
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jediroller
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1718 Posts |
Posted - 08/09/2004 : 04:40:37
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quote:
Originally posted by offerw
On the DVD Van Sandt is interviewed and he points out that he was not trying to show any reason for the kids turning into killers, he just imagined what a regular day for these kids would be like.
Mmm, then why add this heavy-handed "gay" subtext? That shower scene... (By the way, I'd be curious to know what an exceptional day would look like, if a "regular" one includes boy-on-boy sexual play, delivery of military weapons, and shooting everybody in sight.)
I tend to think that if these guys had had a chance to get it on, with each other or otherwise, they wouldn't have felt the need to, you know, seek release in mass murder.
I mean, he does seem to point to the fact that these killings were born of sexual frustration, violent video games, easily available war weapons, absence and/or ineptitude of adults, and of course, consumption of milk ;-)
He does show that "gay/straight" support group thing, featuring lines pointing to the fact that "you wouldn't necessarily know if someone was gay, they don't have to look the part" or something, and then show the homicidal kids making out in the shower. Draw your own conclusions... "Look, gun-toting gays! The ultimate outcasts! And they're gonna KILL YOU ALL for not noticing how gay/sensitive/heavily armed/good at playing piano they were!"
I don't want to be too hard on that film. I did think it was quite brilliantly filmed. But I'm having none of this "I'm not trying to say anything about anything" bull from Mr Van Sant, if you see what I mean.
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Everything I say to you is gonna come out wrong anyway |
Edited by - jediroller on 08/09/2004 04:42:28 |
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Monsieur
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1688 Posts |
Posted - 08/09/2004 : 05:25:56
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I don't think these two guys are gay (they could be, but it's not the point), they only say they've never been kissed before. It is more a focus on their sexual frustration, seen more as a lack of love than as a way of climbing the phony social ladder.
Just before the killing, he describes them as what they are, kids seeing through the fog of childhood - they are not really aware of the world, everything is like a game for them. Hence the video game. And the piano scene - he fucks up the immortal "Für Elise", then shows irreverence to the masterpiece. Their desire of being kissed is a desire of a child, there are no allusions to a sexual/genital intercourse.
As for the weapons, I truly don't see how you can relate the story without showing how they are easily available - I mean, their equipment is not made for hunting birds!
The gay support group is a detail, just like many other details in the film. It has nothing to do with the killing. And the guy who has irresponsible parents is far from being a murderer.
My point here is that the main thing about the film is its aesthetic. Of course Van Sant says something, because saying nothing is always saying something. After every single politician and that a-hole MM, at least on film tries to be more factual about the thing, not trying to "explain" with a simple theory but rather trying to show the complexity through a painting of different, often unrelated facts.
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jediroller
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1718 Posts |
Posted - 08/09/2004 : 07:53:55
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The gay support group is a detail, just like many other details in the film.
Yes, but it could have been a support group about obesity or being a Muslim or whatever. A choice has been made here. You certainly have a point about the kissy-kiss stuff (although I should point out that you don't have to be naked to kiss).
And the guy who has irresponsible parents is far from being a murderer.
Yes, I would say there that one of the points of the film is, "not all outcasts / kids with fucked-up families become murderers. Some become filmmakers." :)
(As a matter of fact, the friend who lent me the DVD attribute the shower scene to the mere fact that Van Sant likes naked boys...)
As for the weapons, I truly don't see how you can relate the story without showing how they are easily available - I mean, their equipment is not made for hunting birds!
I was being ironic, there.
and that a-hole MM
Michael Moore? Marilyn Manson?
Oops, my time is up, seeya!
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Everything I say to you is gonna come out wrong anyway |
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Elephant
