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noexx
= Cult of Ray =
361 Posts |
 Posted - 06/24/2004 : 20:47:01
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| satan and god don't exist...but humans feel comfortable being able to rely on either. |
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VoVat
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
9168 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2004 : 21:08:14
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Satan is more reliable than Old Faithful!
Cattle in Korea / They can really moo. |
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fudd
= Cult of Ray =
664 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2004 : 21:22:39
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I've been resisting the temptation, but now for some reason I am not.
There are three reasons to believe in some sort of higher power.
1. You heard that if you don't believe it you will suffer for eternity. Yikes. There's some brilliant thinking. (On the part of the designers of this crock of shit, it is pretty brilliant, actually. But the people who buy it are beyond hope.)
2. You are afraid to die and it gives you a way to believe you don't have to. See 1.
3. The universe we live in is difficult to explain. This is actually a respectable motivation. Unfortunately most people get the logic completely wrong. If we have an artifact that we have a hard time explaining, i.e., it is unlikely but somehow exists (for instance the universe around us), and we propose something else that easily explains the first (for instance a god capable of creating it), but the second thing is itself even harder to explain, i.e., it is more unlikely than the first, we have only made our problem worse. A god who creates the universe is certainly is at least as unlikely as the universe itself, if it is able to simply create the universe through force of will or whatever.
Here is another way to look at it. I can't prove that I wasn't assembled out of spare parts last night when I think I was sleeping, and that all my memories aren't fabricated. (This used to bother me when I was a kid.) Perhaps this is some cruel joke or experiment played out on me (and you) by some race of aliens. Notice that my aliens are less powerful than a universe-creating god, since they only manipulate the universe rather than create it and manipulate it, and thus my aliens are less unlikely to exist. But that doesn't mean I should believe in them, and people would rightfully think I was a kook if I did. Yet these same people happily believe in their all-powerful god and noone calls them kooks. By the way, people do think I am a kook, but for other reasons.
This is not conclusive proof that there is no god, but it is conclusive proof that it is foolish to believe in one.
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SpudBoy
= Cult of Ray =
Equatorial Guinea
649 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2004 : 21:33:17
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Kirkegaard was a devout Christian who wrote some pretty compelling stuff regarding the difference between being Christian (as emulation of Christ) and Christian (as Christendom, or the man-made construct around the man Jesus & co.). Good points, but he left his wife and died penniless and insane. I hope, for his sake, he was onto something.
I myself am a registered minister of my own intended - but unincorporated - church. Today its name is the Zany Zen Taoist Discordian Buddha Farm. It might be called Whillikers tomorrow. Not to completely disregard the western dominant strains of belief, but I tend to gravitate away from anything as vain as the anthropomorphizing of the universal It. I believe there is an underlying force to all things, from here to the farthest edge of our expanding space-time. Intent? Punishment? I dunno - I don't see it as seperate from myself, or anyone else, so external judgement does not come into the equation. Thus, it is an interactive thing. I create superstitions to interact with this river. Most of the time, there is a measurable - sometimes significant - difference. Light is a wave or a particle depending on how you want to detect it. I see the world we live in the same way. I can't prove to you that we were all here yesterday, although it certainly looks that way. Might be a blip caught in the flash of some 6th dimension instrument of observation, all artifacts intact, and then ether again.
I can see why people relate themselves as Buddhists while the MC Da' Lama says not to forsake your native belief. The Buddhists believe the presence of (God/Buddha/Brahma/Bob) in every grain of sand, so why not in a Baptist revival tent too?
Some people try to make Chaos Magick an organized practice. Old habits die hard.
Time slows as gravitational fields increase. String theory holds that gravity is the only particle able to traverse dimensions. My Church is now the Holy Grotto of Dense Spinning. Blue lotus of flame in your mind, indeed!
P.S. I really am completely serious about this.
*festoon* |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2004 : 21:40:25
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What SpudBoy said.
A-yup. |
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glacial906
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1738 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2004 : 21:42:29
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| SpudBoy, you are too cool. |
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SpudBoy
= Cult of Ray =
Equatorial Guinea
649 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2004 : 22:00:13
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Why thank you! Come on over - all I need is 2 more reverends and we can incorporate the Church of the Errant Bottlecap in the Eye, and we're off the tax hook.
*festoon* |
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Jose Jones
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1758 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2004 : 22:12:19
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I don't think there's anything wrong with the Bible or the God described within it. all the problems that people have with religion and, in particular, Christians are really problems with the people involved. people suck, so don't base opinions on God on the shitty people that worship Him.
also, don't attack the Bible without actually reading most of it.
religion is pointless, God is not.
-dan |
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fudd
= Cult of Ray =
664 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2004 : 22:19:13
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quote:
Originally posted by SpudBoy
[bunch of stuff deleted for brevity, but I am responding to it all -- fudd]
P.S. I really am completely serious about this.
What purpose does it serve?
p.s. I am really curious and not being flippant or combatitive in light of my previous post.
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Edited by - fudd on 06/24/2004 22:21:19 |
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glacial906
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1738 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2004 : 22:25:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Jose Jones
I don't think there's anything wrong with the Bible or the God described within it. all the problems that people have with religion and, in particular, Christians are really problems with the people involved. people suck, so don't base opinions on God on the shitty people that worship Him.
also, don't attack the Bible without actually reading most of it.
religion is pointless, God is not.
-dan
No, really, I don't have problems with most of the people I've met who are religious (besides the fanatical ones who try to shove their religion down your throat.) I would say that it's definitely the religion that scares me, and the attitudes that people adopt when they conform themselves to that religion. My mother is a devout Christian, my grandfather is the same way, and I love them both and respect their beliefs. I just wish I could share those beliefs. Religion for them provided something which it didn't for me -- something I wish it would.
Take me, break me, tell me a good one and maybe I'll cry
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SpudBoy
= Cult of Ray =
Equatorial Guinea
649 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2004 : 22:32:50
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It helps me stay grounded (not in the IEEE sense), and as I mentioned I have seen direct results - imagined or not, perception is as close as we ever get to reality, anyway. Things like focusing on a particular goal through creative visualization, etc. have consistently drawn me down a path that realizes that goal, and a lot of the steps along the way seem accidental. I find that operating from a base of understanding that the universe is basically a very absurd and strange place helps take a lot of the interpersonal negativity much more in stride, versus being the very volatile and angry young man I once was. This is where the Taoism comes in, as I recognize it is a crutch, and that I am missing the point, but somehow the act of recognizing that *is* the point. Look at a stick bug. I mean *look* at it. Mathematical possibility of random mutation producing it, creationism, or the bug over many generations going "Damn, if I looked like this stick I might not get et!"? You be the judge.
*festoon* |
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fudd
= Cult of Ray =
664 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2004 : 22:39:11
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| Good for a laugh, I suppose. Doesn't help me prove theorems or make the Pixies sound any better. |
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ProverbialCereal
- FB TabMaster -
USA
2953 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2004 : 22:42:11
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quote:
Originally posted by PsychicTwin
Religion = Opiate for the masses
Whoever said that was fucking right on.
It was me.
Actually it was Groucho Marx.
Nah, actually it was Karl Marx
Just quit a cult / going through withdrawal |
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glacial906
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1738 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2004 : 22:49:15
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quote:
Originally posted by SpudBoy
It helps me stay grounded (not in the IEEE sense), and as I mentioned I have seen direct results - imagined or not, perception is as close as we ever get to reality, anyway. Things like focusing on a particular goal through creative visualization, etc. have consistently drawn me down a path that realizes that goal, and a lot of the steps along the way seem accidental. I find that operating from a base of understanding that the universe is basically a very absurd and strange place helps take a lot of the interpersonal negativity much more in stride, versus being the very volatile and angry young man I once was. This is where the Taoism comes in, as I recognize it is a crutch, and that I am missing the point, but somehow the act of recognizing that *is* the point. Look at a stick bug. I mean *look* at it. Mathematical possibility of random mutation producing it, creationism, or the bug over many generations going "Damn, if I looked like this stick I might not get et!"? You be the judge.
*festoon*
Well, evolution by it's very nature seems to have some definitive, reactive traits to it, by reacting to problems or conditions in the environment, and altering a species on the genetic level to adapt to new conditions. So, in a way there seems to be some kind of sentient force behind it. I love Carl Sagan's view of God. Carl Sagan was mostly considered an atheist, but he said in "Cosmos" that he believed in a "being" that created everything, totally unlike the God that most of us were brought up to believe in. I guess my fear of dying and going to hell is mostly due to the infusion of Baptist beliefs that I was brought up with.
Take me, break me, tell me a good one and maybe I'll cry
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2004 : 00:30:12
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quote:
Originally posted by glacial906
Well, evolution by it's very nature seems to have some definitive, reactive traits to it, by reacting to problems or conditions in the environment, and altering a species on the genetic level to adapt to new conditions. So, in a way there seems to be some kind of sentient force behind it.
This isn't how evolution works. There is no sentient force behind it.
Here's evolution ni a nutshell. There is genetic variation and the genetic variation largely ultimately comes from mutations. This genetic variation causes individuals to differ in their traits (how fast they are, how smart they are, how they find mates, ect.). The traits of individuals can affect how well they survive and reproduce. Individuals that have genotypes (a collection of genes) that are better suited for their current environment will tend to have more offspring than individuals with poorly suited genotypes. Thus, in the next generation the proportion of individuals that have the better suited genotypes will increase. That's evolution.
The variation that allows evolution to occur (the building blocks for evolution) is created by largely mutations (random mistakes). There's no plan behind the evolution. That does not mean that evolution is random, because the selection (which genotypes do well in the current environment) is not random.
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2004 : 01:20:25
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Sure..like Darwin knows anything about evolution..sheesh.. ;)
All you gotta do is read Leviticus to know that Xianity is totally hokey.
For me, i don't believe in fairy tales and story books. I don't believe in dragons, unicorns or gnomes. For me, a 'God' is just as unlikely, and as much a human concept and creation as any other fantasy creature.
I don't need to think there is a 'purpose' to life, other than the purposes i give myself.
I don't need to feel like there has to be something going on after i die. I actually take comfort in the idea that i'll simply cease to exist (giving my good-byes)..and eventually my particles will spread out through the entire universe.
Where did 'everything' come from? Who knows, who cares, and what difference does it make? I don't even know where *i* came from.
I figure, just as we now know why the sun appears every day, we'll figure out how things started. (Not that it'll really make any difference. Stoutly religerous people never seem to handle evidence very well...look how long it took the Catholics to accept the earth is round and that we revolve around the sun..)
And who knows, maybe one day we'll all find out there really is a god(ess)(s) and won't those athiests feel silly! Maybe the supreme being is playing a big joke...seeing who'll sop bizarre levels of calculated inconsistancies.
In the mean-time, i'm voting Agnostic, with strong Athiest leanings. =)
 Join the Cult of the Flying Pigxies - I'm A Believer! |
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Opaque
= Cult of Ray =
USA
251 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2004 : 02:31:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave Noisy
For me, i don't believe in fairy tales and story books. I don't believe in dragons, unicorns or gnomes.
But surely you believe in Sasquatch, right?  
"You've gotta listen for a weird, strange noise. Something out of the ordinary." - John Crichton |
Edited by - Opaque on 06/25/2004 02:32:56 |
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Jose Jones
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1758 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2004 : 08:26:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave Noisy
All you gotta do is read Leviticus to know that Xianity is totally hokey.
Join the Cult of the Flying Pigxies - I'm A Believer!
This is a mistake that many people who attack the Bible make. like i said earlier, read the (whole) Bible yourself, then make opinions on the lunacy of it all.
allow me to explain a bit: the Bible is divided into two parts- the Old Testament and the New Testament. The Old Testament chronicles the events of key players and the Israelites in general from the dawn of man (adam and eve) to 400BC (malachi). Obviously, Jesus hadn't done his thing yet in the period of the Old Testament, so God used a different covenant with his people: sacrificial lambs, priests in the holy of holies, etc.
then, jesus came and did his thing. this, as well as the spread of this news, is chronicled in the new testament (or new "covenant"). with the coming of jesus, all those bizzare rules and rituals described in the Old Testament (Leviticus, Deuteronomy, Numbers) became obsolete.
practicing jews don't believe that jesus was the real deal, so they obviously disregard the New Testament and still live under the laws of the Old Covenant.
Christians don't live under the old laws and thus only [here comes some christian language] live in the freedom of the grace, mercy, and love of Jesus Christ.
there's some background info for all ya'll.
-dan |
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noexx
= Cult of Ray =
361 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2004 : 10:02:23
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i am not one for believing in the almighty, but it does make me kinda upset when people claim to be christian or believers and followers of 'the lord' and yet they do nothing else to show it except to say it.
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fudd
= Cult of Ray =
664 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2004 : 11:09:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Jose Jones
This is a mistake that many people who attack the Bible make. like i said earlier, read the (whole) Bible yourself, then make opinions on the lunacy of it all.
allow me to explain a bit: the Bible is divided into two parts- the Old Testament and the New Testament. The Old Testament chronicles the events of key players and the Israelites in general from the dawn of man (adam and eve) to 400BC (malachi). Obviously, Jesus hadn't done his thing yet in the period of the Old Testament, so God used a different covenant with his people: sacrificial lambs, priests in the holy of holies, etc.
then, jesus came and did his thing. this, as well as the spread of this news, is chronicled in the new testament (or new "covenant"). with the coming of jesus, all those bizzare rules and rituals described in the Old Testament (Leviticus, Deuteronomy, Numbers) became obsolete.
practicing jews don't believe that jesus was the real deal, so they obviously disregard the New Testament and still live under the laws of the Old Covenant.
Christians don't live under the old laws and thus only [here comes some christian language] live in the freedom of the grace, mercy, and love of Jesus Christ.
there's some background info for all ya'll.
-dan
Whoa! Anti-Semitism right here on frankblack.net! |
Edited by - fudd on 06/25/2004 11:10:54 |
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VoVat
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
9168 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2004 : 12:31:24
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quote:
I myself am a registered minister of my own intended - but unincorporated - church. Today its name is the Zany Zen Taoist Discordian Buddha Farm. It might be called Whillikers tomorrow.
Why not "Uncle Whiskers"? <g>
Personally, I don't really think there's an afterlife. The concept just doesn't make that much sense to me. Our identities are defined by thought patterns that disappear when we die. On the other hand, I can understand why people WANT there to be an afterlife, since death is scary. But then, some people want to make the afterlife scary as well, as least for people who don't believe what they do.
Cattle in Korea / They can really moo. |
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Jose Jones
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1758 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2004 : 08:43:27
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quote:
Originally posted by fudd
Whoa! Anti-Semitism right here on frankblack.net!
i seriously hope that was a joke.
-dan |
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Opaque
= Cult of Ray =
USA
251 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2004 : 12:03:21
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quote:
Originally posted by fudd
Here is another way to look at it. I can't prove that I wasn't assembled out of spare parts last night when I think I was sleeping, and that all my memories aren't fabricated. (This used to bother me when I was a kid.)
*BIG SMILE*
"You've gotta listen for a weird, strange noise. Something out of the ordinary." - John Crichton |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2004 : 12:54:16
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quote:
Originally posted by fudd
Whoa! Anti-Semitism right here on frankblack.net!
Don't be an idiot fudd.
 "Ee-hee! Shamone!" |
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fudd
= Cult of Ray =
664 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2004 : 13:23:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Cheeseman1000
Don't be an idiot fudd.
Somebody has to. |
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fudd
= Cult of Ray =
664 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2004 : 13:27:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Jose Jones
quote:
Originally posted by fudd
Whoa! Anti-Semitism right here on frankblack.net!
i seriously hope that was a joke.
-dan
Note to self: Gotta learn to use smilies. |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2004 : 13:28:22
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Yeah yeah, but thats what we have KoK and Homers Pet Monkey for.
Sorry, it was a little unneccesary. I just think its a really serious accusation to claim anti-Semitism because of past associations, and I don't think Jose Jones' post warranted that.
"Ee-hee! Shamone!" |
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fudd
= Cult of Ray =
664 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2004 : 13:34:30
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| Past associations? |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2004 : 13:42:52
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Not that anti-semitism is acceptable in any form, more like, you are calling the man a Nazi which is very harsh.
I see what you mean though.
"Ee-hee! Shamone!" |
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SpudBoy
= Cult of Ray =
Equatorial Guinea
649 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2004 : 17:35:10
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quote:
Originally posted by fudd
Good for a laugh, I suppose. Doesn't help me prove theorems or make the Pixies sound any better.
Not for you, perhaps, but for me it does. See, by changing my attitude and outlook I change my life. You've never had a day where the world just seemed more alive than usual? I do computer engineering work, and my relationship with the universe guides my thoughts, which produce results.
Here is something important about the way I see things, though: You are also right. It won't help you, because you have not arrived at the same conclusions for the same reasons. I don't want to convert anyone, because I am actively trying to eradicate dogma and live what I think. But if you want to understand what I think, I will explain it as best as I can. I guess that's a tip o' the mitre to taoism, and the unspoken-tao-being-the-only-true-tao concept. My reader's digest view of that particular discipline is "put up or shut up" - you live it or you're flapping lips.
*festoon* |
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SpudBoy
= Cult of Ray =
Equatorial Guinea
649 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2004 : 17:36:12
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quote:
Originally posted by glacial906
Well, evolution by it's very nature seems to have some definitive, reactive traits to it, by reacting to problems or conditions in the environment, and altering a species on the genetic level to adapt to new conditions. So, in a way there seems to be some kind of sentient force behind it.
In my view, it isn't so much a sentient being behind it, as much as it is a very different consciousness than our own that *is* it. And everything else for that matter. Thus thought becomes form, as it is all the same goo, if you smash it small enough.
*festoon* |
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SpudBoy
= Cult of Ray =
Equatorial Guinea
649 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2004 : 17:40:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave Noisy
I don't even know where *i* came from.
You mean your parents didn't ever tell you about that stuff? Go to the porno store - you'll be alright.
*festoon* |
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fudd
= Cult of Ray =
664 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2004 : 17:50:26
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quote:
Originally posted by SpudBoy
quote:
Originally posted by glacial906
Well, evolution by it's very nature seems to have some definitive, reactive traits to it, by reacting to problems or conditions in the environment, and altering a species on the genetic level to adapt to new conditions. So, in a way there seems to be some kind of sentient force behind it.
In my view, it isn't so much a sentient being behind it, as much as it is a very different consciousness than our own that *is* it. And everything else for that matter. Thus thought becomes form, as it is all the same goo, if you smash it small enough.
*festoon*
Sounds like the force. Did your dad wear black a lot? |
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fudd
= Cult of Ray =
664 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2004 : 17:59:40
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quote:
Originally posted by SpudBoy
Here is something important about the way I see things, though: You are also right. It won't help you, because you have not arrived at the same conclusions for the same reasons. I don't want to convert anyone, because I am actively trying to eradicate dogma and live what I think. But if you want to understand what I think, I will explain it as best as I can. I guess that's a tip o' the mitre to taoism, and the unspoken-tao-being-the-only-true-tao concept. My reader's digest view of that particular discipline is "put up or shut up" - you live it or you're flapping lips.
I think Taoists and atheists reach the same conclusion but by different arguments. You think there is something else out there (in here) and there's nothing you can do to change it so you might as well go with it (stay with it) and be happy. I think there's nothing else out there so I might as well be happy about it.
But one of us is deluding himself. (Only half a smily.)
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SpudBoy
= Cult of Ray =
Equatorial Guinea
649 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2004 : 18:10:40
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And neither of us, nor anyone else, can prove which one. Thus, I turned to the Discordians, who say "fuck 'em if they can't take a joke", and then go drink some whiskey...which I will do immediately.
*festoon* |
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Topic |
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Religion is Scary
