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IceCream
= Quote Accumulator =
USA
1850 Posts |
 Posted - 03/30/2004 : 21:48:51
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This is just my stupid opinion, supported with a lot of evidence that’s probably mis-interpreted or innacurate, but:
1993 through 1995. Earth-shattering material came from Frank. Weird, abstract, totally original and complex chord changes. Accompanied by AMAZINGLY catchy melodies. You know when you get a song in your head? And you can’t get it out? And you just keep singing it over and over with a lot of passion. Well, every song on FB has accomplished that. The melody of LA just sweeps me away - It’s done so amazingly and profoundly with that densely layered mix.......synths enhance the sound...it’s so full and encompassing (though not as energetic as Trompe le Monde) . It’s abstract. Weird. Avant-garde. But it’s accesible, listenable, hit-single material....as evidenced by that I have gotten the songs in my head, and they don’t easily get out. I don’t want them to get out. It’s odd, but the songs have direction. Direction. You know? I think it’s not just weird for the sake of weird or quirky experiments like the Residents; the FB songs have some sort of discernable direction. That’s the way I see it, anyway. “Parry the Wind High, Low” - the chord changes sound quite weird. Time signature/meter = not common. Sophisticated. EXTREMELY ORIGINAL. Completely untraditional. And there are other instances of experimentation: the two bass guitars in “superabound”, the crazy drums on “parry the wind high, low”, the extreme difference between verse and chorus of “Two Reelers”, etc. And the lyrics, of course, are odd. But they’re catchy songs! I’ve sung “oh suck a syrup and soda; oh dance oh sons and daughters” to myself MANY A TIME.
And now look at SMYT. Traditional, rootsy, sometimes even predictable chord progressions. In “Manitoba”, the phrase ‘and I have dearly paid’ ends on a G chord, and I expect that G chord, you know? One would EXPECT the “for the “for the first time in my life, I don’t the luck” to end on that C chord. The lyrics are OF SUBJECTS common in classic rock music. Observe the chord changes in “Horrible Day”.....Traditional! Rootsy. Much more of a roots riff than “Fu Manchu” or “Adda Lee”. And IMHO, the new songs aren’t even as catchy, let alone original, as the old songs! Truthfully, I HAVE NEVER GOTTEN A SONG FROM SMYT STUCK IN MY HEAD in the way that those early songs do.
Devil’s Workshop is something to consider: “San Antonio, TX” is quite sophisticated. and it’s catchy to high degrees...and it DOES have some of those AMAZING melodies of the old daze. “His Kingly Cave” features an incredible chord sequence (during the verse) that I’d REALLY have to put some effort in to figure out, if I hypothetically wanted to (I don’t want to...rather show some respect for Derek Olson). I mean, really; there’s so many chords during the verse. I mean, let’s observe the VERSE: It’s the furthest thing from a simple and riff. And the progression of the chords is so original....DEFINITELY unlike any riff I’ve heard before. “The Scene”, “Bartholomew”....great songs.
I like Frank Black better than Doolittle. Compare the riff of “Tame” to “Los Angeles”. The chord progression of the “Los Angeles” riff is somewhat lengthy, the melody is complex and takes a bit before it repeats itself. it’s complicated. “Tame”? Virtually no melody. Less complex. Of course, the Pixies have more of a spark, but I think Frank Black is a more ‘genius rock’, as Dean so eloquently put.
I must say that SMYT does showcase FB’s amazing diversity, but that’s not my main point. This opinion of mine, which is supported by examples, has been inside my head for months, and I finally wanted to type it out. Frank’s SMYT might pale in comparison to his previous works, but when I say “previous”, I don’t mean Doolittle nearly as much as Frank Black or Teenager of the Year or the occasional hint of his avant-garde-ism on albums such as COR (“COR”...now that’s a sophisticated-sounding song) or Devil’s Workshop.
Don’t get me wrong, SMYT is a good album. Good listening. And I may be exaggerating a few things; or disregarding evidence that would go against my opinion....this could be quite biased. But the riffs on SMYT really aren’t unlike any other riffs I’ve heard before. What I’m wondering is:
Have you noticed a decrease in the eccentricity or the ingenuity? What are your feelings regarding it?
Also, I wonder if Frank Black Francis would indicate any step in the odd direction.
 Join the Cult of Pi - It's just 3.14159265358979323846264338327950288419716939937510582097.... |
Edited by - IceCream on 04/01/2004 13:43:57 |
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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Netherlands
6214 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2004 : 23:14:17
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Well, Frank wanted to write more rootsy and more traditional because he wanted to do something else and that it's really difficult to write a good rootsy traditional song. He wanted to embrace cliché's more, which is very brave I think.
Ohh and one more thing I think that as an artist with so high output
you have to change your direction every once in awhile.I see your point, but FB,TOTY and COR are in a whole different league than the catholics albums, I think Frank had done everything possible in the whole UFO-Avant Gare-scene since Bossanova 'till Cult of Ray.
 "I joined the Cult of Frank/Nobody wanted to join my Culf" |
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two reelers
* Dog in the Sand *
Austria
1036 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2004 : 00:47:18
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i don't want frank to deliver another teenager of the year or fb self-titled. like those records were 120% perfect after he dissolved the pixies, smyt is the perfect record for this time. i mean, look at the history of the man and you will see one constant: he is absolutely true in writing his songs. he is not acting or performing. he just writes really great songs. there are some i don't like to listen (especially on dw and pistolero), but there is none where i can say it is useless crap or a filler.
i mean, he is getting older. with 40 years or so, why should you write about UFO'S when you have done this 15 years ago ? and frank is definitely growing old with a lot of dignity.
Death to the Pixies / Here comes Frank Black |
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Jason
* Dog in the Sand *
1446 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2004 : 06:30:57
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Last time I saw him, Frank seemed to have lost some weight. So yeah, I'd say he's lost something.
But musically, no. If you read recent interviews he makes it pretty clear why he's making the music he makes now.
I like all Frank. I don't even really judge his records anymore. I just put 'em on and I'm glad to hear 'em. Yeah, I'm a FANBOY, but I try to be nice about it. |
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Broken Face
-= Forum Pistolero =-
USA
5155 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2004 : 07:01:28
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plus, as to having "traditional" lyrics on SMYT, its probably because he just went through a divorce and was writing from his heart - unlike during the FB/TOTY stage where songs ranged from the three stooges to californian history to pong.
-brian
 - "I joined the Cult of Frank / And they tried to cut off my nuts and make me put on a blue jumpsuit"
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Gav Williams
- FB Fan -
South Africa
5 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2004 : 07:33:47
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| I honestly didn't realise Frank Black just got divorced. I read on Cooking Vinyl's website he'd been seeing a shrink, but his comments on his record releases are notoriously off-centre misleading and quirky. How come Jean Marie Walsh still did the artwork on Show Me Your Tears? I don't have the disc with me now, but I'm sure she designed the cover. And if they have split. Get back to v23 dude! Or phone the Designer's Republic. Maybe he's reuniting the Pixies to meet a new lady, who knows? I don't subscribe to your theory on the slow depletion in style over FB's career. You have some points but generally I never like a new FB release until I've heard it about 8-25 times, then I'm just hooked. I didn't find TOTY or the first record instantly accessible, I think it's the benefit of hind sight that's led us to this belief. We've lived with them for longer. Cheers. |
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jediroller
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1718 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2004 : 07:42:19
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Well, everything is new.
He told you before, but you weren't listening ;)
I'm truly sorry about the utter triteness of what I am about to write here, but there you have it: different people expect and hear different things, and that about sums up my opinion...
To me, good music is good music. I find Frank's highly enjoyable and ask for no more. I don't really care if it's "sophisticated" or if the chord progressions are common. I can't tell a G from a C anyway...
And I do get SMYT songs stuck in my head - all the time. Mostly "Everything Is New", actually.
Frank did more than his bit for "indie rock" or whatever it's called (which, in return, didn't do much for him, let's hope the upcoming Pixies tour will set the record straight). Then he moved on. You don't have to follow him - but I really think constantly comparing his current work to his previous work is rather pointless.
French writer and filmmaker Marcel Pagnol had a story about that. He remembered some teacher who once grabbed his hand and made him slap himself in the face. He said he was reminded of the incident each time a critic bashed his new book/play/film by comparing it to older work and saying "He's not as good as he used to be"...
Although I wouldn't ever accuse IceCream of doing this -- he actually didn't say Frank wasn't as good... he just said his music was less eccentric and sophisticated. Point taken... the bottom line is deciding if being less sophisticated is a bad thing. I don't think so.
Perhaps Frank should pull a Stephen King and release new music under an assumed identity. (It wouldn't work because everybody would recognise his voice, at the very least... but I dig the idea).
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Everything I say to you is gonna come out wrong anyway |
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jediroller
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1718 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2004 : 07:47:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Gav Williams
How come Jean Marie Walsh still did the artwork on Show Me Your Tears? I don't have the disc with me now, but I'm sure she designed the cover.
She did. But then, you can divorce without becoming mortal enemies. I think.
quote:
And if they have split. Get back to v23 dude!
Haha! I'm not sure their style would fit his music anymore... and anyway, they're certainly way too expensive :)
quote:
Maybe he's reuniting the Pixies to meet a new lady, who knows?
Last news we got, he had a new lady. Name of Violet? Aka Miss Thing... or maybe not :)
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Everything I say to you is gonna come out wrong anyway |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2004 : 07:52:20
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Thanks for quoting me, Ice Cream. You might have made my day. :)
"Join the Cult of Frank / And you'll be enlightened" |
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NimrodsSon
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1938 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2004 : 12:00:59
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As many of the above people have said, it's just what Frank wants to do. Like Bill said, he wants to embrace cliches which, like he said, is very brave and in my opinion honorable. I don't think Frank has lost any of his songwriting abilityat all; I think it is impossible to lose songwriting ability (after all, it's the exact same person writing the songs as 10 years ago). If Frank wanted to write the more "original"-sounding synthesizer pop or however you classify it with all the unexpected chord changes, HE COULD. And not only that but I'm sure he'd be just as good, if not better at it as he was 10 years ago. This new country/classic rock thing he's doing right now is just a new direction that he wants to go in and I love it and I actuall get songs from Pistolero, DITS, BLD, DW, and SMYT stuck in my head a lot more than all the rest of them and I listen to them more than all the rest. This is all, of course, my opinion and it's fine if you like the old stuff better, but no, Frank has not "lost" anything as a songwriter.
¡Viva los Católicos! |
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vigorstrength
- FB Fan -
87 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2004 : 12:28:51
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Frank is so prolific. He writes song after song, and it comes from trying different avenues. Imagine trying to stick with one style in mind. You slow down, and slow down, until you hit the dead end. I'm looking forward to the day when he writes his 500th song. He's at least half-way there.
Show Me Your Tears is the only album my wife has actually enjoyed. She's not as eccentric as us ;) Those songs can be played around the campfire, cowboy style. I love it. |
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VoVat
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
9168 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2004 : 13:58:51
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I really don't know anything about chords and progressions and all that, so I can't judge Frank's music based on that kind of stuff. I do think his more recent work is perhaps less eccentric, but it's still quite enjoyable and catchy. I like the rootsy feel to a lot of Frank's newer songs.
Join the Culf of Buttoms / Correctly spelled cults are so passé. |
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IceCream
= Quote Accumulator =
USA
1850 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2004 : 13:58:58
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quote:
Originally posted by billgoodman
Well, Frank wanted to write more rootsy and more traditional because he wanted to do something else and that it's really difficult to write a good rootsy traditional song. He wanted to embrace cliché's more, which is very brave I think.
Yes, I respect that. But do you think he can write good, rootsy traditional songs as well as he can do avant-garde quirkiness? That's something I was trying to ask in this thread.
Join the Cult of Pi - It's just 3.14159265358979323846264338327950288419716939937510582097.... |
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El Barto
= Song DB Master =
USA
4020 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2004 : 14:07:13
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He hasn't lost anything...he's evolved. There's an obvious progression from Frank Black to Show Me Your Tears. He's still an amazing song writer who writes amazing lyrics (case in point, Everything Is New). He still rocks as hard as he did with Parry The Wind (case in point, Nadine).
Rootsy traditional songs are rootsy traditional songs. If it's quirky and avant-garde, then it's quirky avante-garde...then it's not rootsy and traditional.
 "Join the Cult of Brit / And let your oral hygiene go out the window." |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2004 : 14:07:56
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I agree with bill, I think its probably more of a challenge to write really good songs in a more traditional style. I think FB has done it on SMYT, though. He doesn't need to be quirky, he's at a different stage in his career. I can't wait to see what happens next (after Pixies of course!)
"Join The Cult Of Wormy Cheese Man/In Ten Words Or Less" |
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PsychicTwin
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1772 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2004 : 08:47:12
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I agree with you all that Frank's new direction is not better or worse...it just is what it is -- different. And still very good.
I guess you could consider Cult of Ray his quirk-rock space-phase swansong. But what a kickass swansong it is. |
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FrankfanL
- FB Fan -
USA
98 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2004 : 13:46:03
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| Yes, evolved. Any Frank is good Frank as far as I'm concerned. |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2004 : 20:14:37
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I dunno what i'd call it, but i won't hesitate to admit i like the avante/quirky stuff. If i want 'good' music, there's already tons out there. I like new, progressive and inspiring stuff.
So..i'd like to see him retreat to his earlier days. Dunno if it's gonna happen tho!
 Join the Cult of the Flying Pigxies - I'm A Believer! |
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vilainde
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Niue
7443 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2004 : 01:26:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Gav Williams
I honestly didn't realise Frank Black just got divorced. I read on Cooking Vinyl's website he'd been seeing a shrink, but his comments on his record releases are notoriously off-centre misleading and quirky. How come Jean Marie Walsh still did the artwork on Show Me Your Tears? I don't have the disc with me now, but I'm sure she designed the cover. And if they have split. Get back to v23 dude! Or phone the Designer's Republic. Maybe he's reuniting the Pixies to meet a new lady, who knows? I don't subscribe to your theory on the slow depletion in style over FB's career. You have some points but generally I never like a new FB release until I've heard it about 8-25 times, then I'm just hooked. I didn't find TOTY or the first record instantly accessible, I think it's the benefit of hind sight that's led us to this belief. We've lived with them for longer. Cheers.
Hey Gav! I didn't know you were back. Good to see you there...
Denis
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Sam
= Cult of Ray =
Ireland
514 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2004 : 04:37:54
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| Stan Ridgway did artwork for SMYT. Jean Black did backing vocals on Maitoba. |
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TarTar
* Dog in the Sand *
1965 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2004 : 07:00:49
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You're right. It was a stupid opinion, supported by poor and misinterpreted evidence, yet you still went to the trouble of posting it anyway. Really now? Where do you expect to get in life when you waste your time writing stuff that you know is worthless and incorrect?
Hey, I'm just kidding, yo. I do think it's a bit extreme to feel that a songwriter has lost something when they release one album that is different from the rest of their work. I mean, I think it's obvious that he's going for the roots-rock sound, the more normal approach to songs. It was just something he had to do. But so many people have said it so much better than me already, so I'm wasting my time typing this.
"(insert clever quote here)" |
Edited by - TarTar on 04/02/2004 07:03:09 |
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Steak n Sabre
* Dog in the Sand *
Uzbekistan
1013 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2004 : 08:03:23
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I'll agree that SMYT's tracks are more conventional than in the past. Some of those off-camber hooks did turn up in "a Dab Will do 'Ya' and 'Massif Central', so I don't think he has totally abandoned that style of writing...
The Cult of Frank: Standing Up For What's Right |
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mun chien andalusia
= Quote Accumulator =
Italy
2139 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2004 : 12:02:16
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IMHO Frank is a guy that hates stereotypes and in the same time a guy that really loves music as a concept and not as a job and\or simple hype\carreer. Combine this and you 'll understand why he does what he does. Immediately after the Pixies he continued his avant-garde exploration. At some point he just got tired of the genre (you can't be avant-garde always, after a while even avant-garde becomes a clichè)and tried something different. And when everybody was resigned to the fact that he would make only countryish records he decides to reform the Pixies and release the Two Pale Boys thing. He's is just a music lover. He likes what he does, regardless the commercial success. He loves the fact that he has 1000-1500 uber fans that will buy whatever he records. He's an indie heart all the way.I'm not a musician but i listen to a lot of different music and i like it and i think that this is what FB does after all. He has a lot of input and he likes to transform his influences in music, without quiting his right to change direction whenever he feels to. I prefer his first solo work, but i admire his attitude, and i don't think he's lost anything. On the contrary he's getting better and better for the simple fact that he keeps changing. I love TOTY but i'd hate 10 TOTY clones one after another.
 join the cult of errol\and you can have a beer\without having to quit smoking
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VoVat
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
9168 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2004 : 14:15:08
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Indeed, if Frank just did the same kind of music all the time, I don't think we'd like him as much. I certainly wouldn't, anyway.
Join the Culf of Buttoms / Correctly spelled cults are so passé. |
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Rancher51
- FB Fan -
1 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2004 : 19:17:59
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My once sang he lost HIS MIND! But if you ask me... he found it.
I've seen him with the Catholics a few times, and he's better than ever, in my opinion.
Yes, Volvat... A true artist does not re-do the same thing. I respect artists right to keep creating... that's what it's all about.
I once thought the Pixies were the greatest band ever... then I heard and saw FrankB and the Catholics! |
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glacial906
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1738 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2004 : 23:20:32
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quote:
Originally posted by IceCream
Have you noticed a decrease in the eccentricity or the ingenuity? What are your feelings regarding it?
Nope. And, I love it.
Take me, break me, tell me a good one and maybe I'll cry
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Bartholomew
= Cult of Ray =
USA
344 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2004 : 06:15:10
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| Not lost a thing. Just moved on to the new and different. Onward, Frank! We will follow. |
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IceCream
= Quote Accumulator =
USA
1850 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2004 : 21:48:16
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quote:
Originally posted by VoVat
Indeed, if Frank just did the same kind of music all the time, I don't think we'd like him as much. I certainly wouldn't, anyway.
Join the Culf of Buttoms / Correctly spelled cults are so passé.
Indeed. I love that he went for a new direction - I think it would be wrong to be boxed in to one pony trick. FB is not a one-trick pony. But I don't know if the diversity of FB needs to be as extreme as it is in order to like him. I mean, Radiohead doesn't have a bunch of OK Computer clones, but I don't expect them to release an album of country-western influenced live to two-track straightfowardness. I think DW is a better direction for Frank than SMYT. SMYT is very moving, though.
But, I mean, "Los Angeles"....
Join the Cult of Pi - It's just 3.14159265358979323846264338327950288419716939937510582097.... |
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klikger
= Cult of Ray =
693 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2004 : 02:41:07
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| I don't think he's lost anything. I love his older stuff, but his newer stuff is expanding my musical tastes and I love it just as much. I think that I probably hated anything remotely resembling country 6 years ago, but now some of my favorite Frank Black songs have that twang. He's continued to grow as an artist, and at 39 years of age, he hasn't put out a single song which I would consider rubbish. I'm looking forward to what he delivers next. |
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Has Frank lost anything? I have a lot of opinions
