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realmeanmotorscutor
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1764 Posts |
 Posted - 02/23/2004 : 22:24:06
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What do you think of Nader? I think he can only do harm and we have a moral obligation (just this time) to stand against him. I don't care how good his platform is or isn't, he can only do the Democrats harm and I hope someone kidnaps him until this election is over.
 "I joined the Cult of Popeye / The CoF required my good eye" |
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realmeanmotorscutor
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1764 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2004 : 22:27:42
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I'm watching him on TV now and he actually has the balls to suggest that he won't fuck up the election. What an asshole.
"I joined the Cult of Popeye / The CoF required my good eye" |
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model consumer
- FB Fan -
USA
128 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2004 : 22:49:42
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Nader should not run. That said, I don't think that he will have the support he did four years ago. Nonetheless, every vote for him is one less vote for the Democrat candidate. I don't like that at all.
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"What's all I listen to? It's all freedom rock!" |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2004 : 00:16:59
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Aye, he's a turd.
 Join the Cult of the Flying Pigxies - I'm A Believer! |
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frank_black_francis
= Cult of Ray =
Canada
895 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2004 : 03:11:30
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| ....I am hoping (crossed-fingers) that he only plans to be in the race for awhile so that he can force the other candidates to address certain oft-ignored issues, or push them to take real stands rather than the usual crap coming out of their mouths....he did make some good points about the democratic process being dominated by 2 parties....just as long as he DROPS OUT B4 NOVEMBER! I still have a friend who tries to deny that he fucked up Gore in 2000; he tries to deny it himself.....and sorry but it is not 'hateful' or 'undemocratic' to say that he had that effect, its math. |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2004 : 05:33:55
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| Ross Perot gave us eight years of that lying scumbag Clinton, for which the Dems deserve an eternity of Naders. |
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mcmikey
= Cult of Ray =
799 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2004 : 06:07:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
Ross Perot gave us eight years of that lying scumbag Clinton, for which the Dems deserve an eternity of Naders.
you've got a point, Erebus. Of course it took the Supreme Court to give us someone as bad as GWBush
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a Spike Lee Joint |
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Adnan_le_Terrible
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1973 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2004 : 07:39:02
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I'm not trying to say we have the best voting system in France, but if one candidate doesn't get over 50% during the first round, there is a second round with only two candidates. This way we're sure the president got elected by over 50% of French people. Elementary, Watson.
Have some wine, please, don't run away. |
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2004 : 07:57:45
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I think right/left dialogues and, by extension, Republican/Democrat, (or in my country Fine Fail/Fine Gael) are false constructs and entirely unproductive. For example, letīs take the extreme of the left, Stalin. What did he want? Full state control of media, concentration camps, centralisation of power. And the extreme of the right, Hitler. What did he want? Full state control of media, concentration camps, centralisation of power.
I just have the feeling that these parties are two or more versions of the same thing designed to keep us divided and from realising our true potential. You know the old chestnut about if voting changed anything theyīd outlaw it?
Bill Hicks on politics:
"I think the puppet on the right shares my beliefs."
"Well, I think the puppet on the left is more to my liking."
"Hey, wait a minute. There's ONE guy holding up BOTH puppets."
"Shut up! Go back to bed, America...your government is in control! And keep drinking beer you moron!"
--
"You one of those right wing nut outfits?" inquired the diplomatic Metzger.
Fallopian twinkled. "They accuse us of being paranoids."
"They?" inquired Metzger, twinkling also.
"Us?" asked Oedipa.
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2004 : 08:08:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Newo
I just have the feeling that these parties are two or more versions of the same thing designed to keep us divided and from realising our true potential.
Given human nature, anything that keeps us from realizing our true potential has my vote. |
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Adnan_le_Terrible
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1973 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2004 : 08:16:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Newo
I think right/left dialogues and, by extension, Republican/Democrat, (or in my country Fine Fail/Fine Gael) are false constructs and entirely unproductive. For example, letīs take the extreme of the left, Stalin. What did he want? Full state control of media, concentration camps, centralisation of power. And the extreme of the right, Hitler. What did he want? Full state control of media, concentration camps, centralisation of power.
I just have the feeling that these parties are two or more versions of the same thing designed to keep us divided and from realising our true potential. You know the old chestnut about if voting changed anything theyīd outlaw it?
Bill Hicks on politics:
"I think the puppet on the right shares my beliefs."
"Well, I think the puppet on the left is more to my liking."
"Hey, wait a minute. There's ONE guy holding up BOTH puppets."
"Shut up! Go back to bed, America...your government is in control! And keep drinking beer you moron!"
--
"You one of those right wing nut outfits?" inquired the diplomatic Metzger.
Fallopian twinkled. "They accuse us of being paranoids."
"They?" inquired Metzger, twinkling also.
"Us?" asked Oedipa.
There is a book about totalitarian governments written by Hannah Arendt (I don't know the title in English) who was one of the first to compare Hitler and Stalin. What she says is these governments were not basically right or left. Totalitarism is another way, a different kind of state, with its cult of personnality, its unique party and so on. Didn't Hitler say "socially left, economically right" (which means nothing, btw).
I think that the political scene in Europe will increasingly look like the American scene, with left-wing parties no longer questioning the foundations of market economy but rather on how the Stete should intervene in order to correct market inefficiencies.
Have some wine, please, don't run away. |
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benji
> Teenager of the Year <
New Zealand
3426 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2004 : 08:16:54
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I think that Douglas Adams' in describing the Zaphod Beeblebrox as the Emperor of the Universe in the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy has some very interesting points regarding Presidents of various nations.
It's an absurd possibility, but not so absurd as to not possibly be true.
 "I joined the Cult of Frank / I think that man deserves a DB!" |
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BLT
> Teenager of the Year <
South Sandwich Islands
4204 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2004 : 08:46:37
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If the Democrats could find a candidate with a milligram of charisma, you wouldn't be whining about Nader. Al Gore lost to George W., who couldn't put together two sentences of his own without stumbling, for chrissakes.
 "Join the Cult of Will Hung / And have no regrets" |
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mcmikey
= Cult of Ray =
799 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2004 : 08:49:33
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quote:
Originally posted by BLT
If the Democrats could find a candidate with a milligram of charisma, you wouldn't be whining about Nader. Al Gore lost to George W., who couldn't put together two sentences of his own without stumbling, for chrissakes.
"Join the Cult of Will Hung / And have no regrets"
that's the thing. Gore DIDN'T lose. He had 500000 more popular votes. The electoral votes were just fucked up, and so the Supreme Court stepped in (only after the Republican party stopped the recounts they were so deadset on because they realized they weren't going to win with recounts) and picked they party-mate
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a Spike Lee Joint |
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BLT
> Teenager of the Year <
South Sandwich Islands
4204 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2004 : 09:17:36
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quote:
Originally posted by mcmikey
Gore DIDN'T lose.
Keep telling yourself that. Eventually you might believe he's the president! |
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mcmikey
= Cult of Ray =
799 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2004 : 09:26:14
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quote:
Originally posted by BLT
quote:
Originally posted by mcmikey
Gore DIDN'T lose.
Keep telling yourself that. Eventually you might believe he's the president!
do you have any idea about the last election?
it really all depends on how you define "being the president"...if you base it on the number of votes, then I guess Gore is......
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a Spike Lee Joint |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2004 : 09:27:33
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| If Gore had not lost: the Taliban would be in power Afghanistan, along with Saddam in Iraq; North Korea would not be negotiating; Libya would not have fessed up; that Pakistani scientist would not have come clean on nuke sales; Iran would not be cooperating; the French, Germans, and Russians would still be illegally cooperating with Saddam; and the US would be kissing the UN ass that would have ensured all of the preceeding points. And, yes, I AM ready for the opposition list. Sometimes I wonder why the Dems are even fielding candidates. |
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mcmikey
= Cult of Ray =
799 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2004 : 09:32:11
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none of those have anything to do with whether Gore lost or not.....they all have to do with the fact that the SUPREME COURT (the vast majority of which are Republicans) chose Bush after the Republican Party changed their minds on the recounts they were at one time demanding (that changed quickly once the recounts began and didn't look good for Bush)
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a Spike Lee Joint |
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ProverbialCereal
- FB TabMaster -
USA
2953 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2004 : 09:35:24
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There goes Nader,
Nader, Nader
 Join the Devil's Workshop / And put the Cult of Frank out of business |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2004 : 10:39:13
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quote:
Originally posted by mcmikey
none of those have anything to do with whether Gore lost or not.....they all have to do with the fact that the SUPREME COURT (the vast majority of which are Republicans) chose Bush after the Republican Party changed their minds on the recounts they were at one time demanding (that changed quickly once the recounts began and didn't look good for Bush)
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a Spike Lee Joint
The Repubs couldn't just sit there while the Dems on the recount boards were tearing off dangling chads to cause ballots to show Gore votes. Oh yes, time was on Gore's side. |
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BLT
> Teenager of the Year <
South Sandwich Islands
4204 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2004 : 10:49:49
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quote:
Originally posted by mcmikey
do you have any idea about the last election?
I followed it pretty closely and was unhappy about the outcome. The problem is I keep seeing Bush on TV with "President" before his name. You can argue forever about how or why Al Gore should be up there and how he was robbed and how Nader stole votes etc., etc., etc. How long do you dwell on that before you turn the page? The Supreme Court would have had nothing to do with it if not for Al Gore's milquetoast mediocrity. It's like a baseball game where you leave the bases loaded in all the early innings and then lose on an error in the twelfth. The guy who committed that error doesn't deserve all the blame. Look at the big picture. |
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mcmikey
= Cult of Ray =
799 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2004 : 11:30:37
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the big picture is that gore won the popular vote. I've said that several times and you keep disregarding that. I never said Gore was president. I just said he didn't lose the election...which is completely true
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a Spike Lee Joint |
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BLT
> Teenager of the Year <
South Sandwich Islands
4204 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2004 : 11:57:11
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quote:
Originally posted by mcmikey
the big picture is that gore won the popular vote. I've said that several times and you keep disregarding that. I never said Gore was president. I just said he didn't lose the election...which is completely true
You know, I never realized he won the popular vote until now. You are totally right. You've opened my eyes. That changes everything. Thanks. |
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mcmikey
= Cult of Ray =
799 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2004 : 12:06:01
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sarcasm in the face of being wrong....how cute!
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a Spike Lee Joint |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2004 : 13:00:44
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| i'm surprised to see how closed-minded most people are here about 3rd party voting.. |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2004 : 13:43:55
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Proportional representation..definitely the way to go in a democracy.
But then people need to learn about more than two people or parties. =)
Join the Cult of the Flying Pigxies - I'm A Believer! |
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VoVat
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
9168 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2004 : 15:09:33
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Indeed, the two-party system is incredibly flawed. On the other hand, so many people buy into it that voting for third-party candidates (a kind of silly term in and of itself; if you want to get technical about it, how can there be more than one "third party"?) is often a meaningless move, and the old "lesser of two evils" kind of voting might be the best idea. On the other hand, if you don't believe either of the Big Two candidates IS the lesser of two evils, go ahead and vote for whomever.
Join the Culf of Buttoms / Just in time for the Poxies reunion! |
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ProverbialCereal
- FB TabMaster -
USA
2953 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2004 : 15:41:17
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It's amusing that people are still saying "Gore won and he should be in office right now." It's been over 3 years, folks.
Join the Devil's Workshop / And put the Cult of Frank out of business |
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VoVat
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
9168 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2004 : 16:04:24
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You know, I think Dewey really DID defeat Truman! He should be in office...um...back in the forties.
Join the Culf of Buttoms / Just in time for the Poxies reunion! |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2004 : 16:55:22
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quote:
Originally posted by VoVat
Indeed, the two-party system is incredibly flawed. On the other hand, so many people buy into it that voting for third-party candidates (a kind of silly term in and of itself; if you want to get technical about it, how can there be more than one "third party"?) is often a meaningless move, and the old "lesser of two evils" kind of voting might be the best idea. On the other hand, if you don't believe either of the Big Two candidates IS the lesser of two evils, go ahead and vote for whomever.
Join the Culf of Buttoms / Just in time for the Poxies reunion!
i just hate the "you're wating your vote" or "he's fucking up the election" line of reasoning that goes on with alternative candidates. you should vote for who you think is the best candidate, period. voting for someone who sucks, just because they suck less than someone else, is wasting your vote. |
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Visiting Sasquatch
= Cult of Ray =
USA
451 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2004 : 18:35:49
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| Frank Black voted for Nader in 2000. Hehe. BTW, I agree with Floop, if you vote your conscience, you did not waste your vote. |
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model consumer
- FB Fan -
USA
128 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2004 : 20:34:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
If Gore had not lost: the Taliban would be in power Afghanistan, along with Saddam in Iraq; North Korea would not be negotiating; Libya would not have fessed up; that Pakistani scientist would not have come clean on nuke sales; Iran would not be cooperating; the French, Germans, and Russians would still be illegally cooperating with Saddam; and the US would be kissing the UN ass that would have ensured all of the preceeding points. And, yes, I AM ready for the opposition list. Sometimes I wonder why the Dems are even fielding candidates.
bullshit, bullshit, bullshit, bullshit, and bullshit. You are making gross generalizatoins and speculations. I may just as well say, and please allow me: If Bush didn't steal the election, then maybe Gore's administration would have done something about the planned terrorist attacks before they happened, which Bush didn't. If Bush didn't steal the election, then maybe Bin Laden may have been captured by now. If Bush didn't steal the election then surely that godawful neo-mccarthy Ashcroft would not have been nominated. We could go on all day...
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"What's all I listen to? It's all freedom rock!" |
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Scarla O
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
947 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2004 : 01:41:24
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I agree with Floop - don't let the state of western politics fool you into thinking that politics isn't about idealism.
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2004 : 04:09:22
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quote:
Erebus Posted - 02/24/2004 : 08:08:28
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quote:
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Originally posted by Newo
I just have the feeling that these parties are two or more versions of the same thing designed to keep us divided and from realising our true potential.
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Given human nature, anything that keeps us from realizing our true potential has my vote.
Pity you feel that way about yourself.
--
"You one of those right wing nut outfits?" inquired the diplomatic Metzger.
Fallopian twinkled. "They accuse us of being paranoids."
"They?" inquired Metzger, twinkling also.
"Us?" asked Oedipa.
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2004 : 04:19:09
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quote:
Adnan_le_Terrible Posted - 02/24/2004 : 08:16:07
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I think that the political scene in Europe will increasingly look like the American scene, with left-wing parties no longer questioning the foundations of market economy but rather on how the Stete should intervene in order to correct market inefficiencies.
I think thatīs correct, and considering all the gold in Europe is being moved to a central bank in Hanover to be overseen by eight unelected officials serving eight-year-terms each, you can pretty much guess where our descision-making process is going. If this had been suggested right after WWII there would have been uproar because everyone had just finished fighting to stop a centralised European superstate, and yet here we have it. Btw, you know Hitlerīs primary financial plan for Europe if he won was called the Europaischegewirtschaftgemeinschaft, which translates as the European Economic Community? Hmm...
--
"You one of those right wing nut outfits?" inquired the diplomatic Metzger.
Fallopian twinkled. "They accuse us of being paranoids."
"They?" inquired Metzger, twinkling also.
"Us?" asked Oedipa.
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bedrock_barney
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
871 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2004 : 05:07:02
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quote:
Originally posted by model consumer
quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
If Gore had not lost: the Taliban would be in power Afghanistan, along with Saddam in Iraq; North Korea would not be negotiating; Libya would not have fessed up; that Pakistani scientist would not have come clean on nuke sales; Iran would not be cooperating; the French, Germans, and Russians would still be illegally cooperating with Saddam; and the US would be kissing the UN ass that would have ensured all of the preceeding points. And, yes, I AM ready for the opposition list. Sometimes I wonder why the Dems are even fielding candidates.
bullshit, bullshit, bullshit, bullshit, and bullshit. You are making gross generalizatoins and speculations. I may just as well say, and please allow me: If Bush didn't steal the election, then maybe Gore's administration would have done something about the planned terrorist attacks before they happened, which Bush didn't. If Bush didn't steal the election, then maybe Bin Laden may have been captured by now. If Bush didn't steal the election then surely that godawful neo-mccarthy Ashcroft would not have been nominated. We could go on all day...
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"What's all I listen to? It's all freedom rock!"
I enjoy reading the relatively infrequent postings by Erebus. He usually has an interesting viewpoint on a wide range of issues but this one is way off base. It sounds like the executive summary from the Bush re-election manifesto. I wholeheartedly agree with model consumer on this one.
Maybe 9-11 wouldn't have happened. I don't know. But I do know that the world feels like a much more destabilised place since 2000. Saying that Bush, Blair et al may go down in history as the tough cookies that saved the world and made it a better place. If they do, then it won't be because of clever design, more a case of a happy accident. A very high risk card game in my opinion.
 "The Pixies are reforming?? / I say bring back Abba, ahaaa!!!" |
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Ralph Nader - For or Against?
