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johndietzel
= Cult of Ray =
Burkina Faso (Upper Volta)
464 Posts |
 Posted - 02/29/2004 : 00:02:20
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Here's one thing I would not mind seeing happen: the copyright owners of the images and other elements being comandeered prosecute the infringing sellers. eBay is freaking retarded with their arbitrary, skittish auction ending and account suspending, but this could be an advantage in this situation. Even a complaint or two from 4ad or Joe Publishing Company or Ken Goes or whoever could help get some of these guys the shaft. Won't happen, but certainly could, right?
For the record, I don't like that people do this, but I guess I don't quite understand forum members' logic that the venue who charges $40 per ticket is the Dalai Lama, while the eBay denizen asking more than that is somehow the Great Satan, Himself. In other words, just because they're the "official" ticket seller doesn't mean their cost is not some arbitrary number pulled out of their ass. It's not as though face value is not intrinsic value or something.
What should one make of the auctions that end with prices below retail? Maybe they represent the pinnacle of righteousness, or perhaps should be considered on the same level as scalpers, for themselves selling for an amount other than "face value."
Come to think of it, if I wanted to estimate the intrinsic value of a Pixies ticket, I would be dishonest not to put it in the 4 figure range anyway.
Sorry, it just bothers me that people always have to find some big "evil" entity to hate, almost like it's out of boredom or something.
Did I mention the word arbitrary? Just to be sure: arbitrary.
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"But, wait--there's more! If you act now, you can also mosey Monday morning into your cozy T1-powered cubicle, whose Athlon 2200+ based nervous system represents yet another distinct and grassy knoll for snipers like you. Oh yeah, and your wife reclines behind her very own version of a Herkimer Battle Jitney, from which she employs the electromagnet's 'next inevitable phase' of a non-lethal weapon, and enthusiastically, and with supreme loyalty, psychofraculatingly hollers 'fire in the hole!'" |
Edited by - johndietzel on 02/29/2004 00:13:53 |
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offerw
* Dog in the Sand *
South Africa
1264 Posts |
Posted - 02/29/2004 : 00:28:08
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| OK then why not have an auction of tickets right from the start. No face value to a ticket, all tickets are put up for auction. If the tickets are in demand prices will be high and the promotors/venue/band earn big bucks. If not then the tickets go cheaply if at all and the promotors/venue/band lose out because no one is interrested. |
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kromkamp
= Cult of Ray =
291 Posts |
Posted - 02/29/2004 : 07:45:45
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Actually, that is what ticketmaster is going to start doing - auctioning off the best seats. I think that sucks because at least now you have a chance to get good seats at the face value.
My own opinion on scalpers is at least they give you a chance to get a ticket for a show you really wanted to go to. Sure, if the scalpers didnt get any tickets then a few more fans would get them right away, but trust me, that fan is still not likely to be you :) So I dont mind if a few tickets make thier way into scalper hands.
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porkbone1
= Cult of Ray =
USA
390 Posts |
Posted - 02/29/2004 : 09:06:04
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There is something to say for this -- as much as I hate scalping, I do like the concept that if I miss the on-sale/sellout date of a popular event, that if it is THAT important to me, I can find some tickets SOMEWHERE. If I had been unable to get tickets to a Pixies show, I told myself I would still go somehow -- and that would have likely involved ebay. Like kromkamp said, as lame as it is, it is sort of an unfair 2nd chance for the 5-minutes late...
That having been said, my 2 extra tickets are going to somone at face value, not being sold on ebay. |
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MrDOS
- FB Fan -
USA
7 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2004 : 19:39:22
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I have wanted to reply to this topic for a while, but I had to wait until I actually got my hands on my tickets because I didn't want to be eating crow, if I actually got screwed via Ebay... which has happened only once in several years of using that website.
I bought two tickets via Ebay from two different sellers. Luckily I was one of the earlier buyers and bought them via Buy it Now for roughly $90 each. I was GLAD to pay $180 for my two tickets - I just wish I would have gotten off that easily on the airline tickets to Boise. I see that the Boise concert tickets are now going for about $250-300 for a pair - I would happily pay that much to see my favorite band for the first time in 12 years, if I didn't already have tickets.
I really don't understand why anyone would have problems with so-called "scalpers". It is the age old tradition of supply and demand. But here are some of the arguments that I have heard:
1) Argument: Scalpers buy up all of the tickets quickly and deny them to "real fans" - Reality: Scalpers don't buy tickets so that they can sleep with them or burn them (laughing maniacally) or even so that they can fill the audience with themselves and their non-"real fan" friends. They buy them with the confidence that they can sell them to fans who will love the show at least as much as the fans who paid face value. How come the people who are willing to pay 5x the ticket fee aren't the "real fans"? As far as the official ticket outlets selling out right away goes - if I were Frank Black, I would be looking at that and thinking "Shit, we should be doing a lot more concerts, if that is how bad people want to see the Pixies." Maybe scalpers help the "real fans" get more concerts scheduled.... okay, that is probably pushing it.
2) Argument: Scalpers drive up the prices of tickets - Reality: This seems believable on its face, but I think it is a "butterfly flapping its wings in China" argument. Several factors drive up ticket prices - the degree of popularity of the band drives up the price of the tickets more than anything. So, it's the band's fault - their tickets would be cheap if they would be content to crank out crappy music! On the other hand, the fact that Venues want to guarantee themselves a full house works to keep the prices down. There are way too many other factors that affect ticket pricing to mention here, but the fact that a tiny minority of the tickets are sold on Ebay for inflated prices has very little to do with anything. Even if you believe that the Ebay prices matter - it is the BUYERS driving up the prices, not the SELLERS (scalpers). There go the damn lesser fans again, screwing everything up for the "real fans".
I think that the people bitching about Ebay would love to buy tickets there, but do not have the money or are unwilling to spend the money. "I would do it if I could, but I can't - so I am against anyone else doing it." That is what they seem to be saying... that and other class warfare related drivel.
How about this argument? I couldn't buy tickets when they went on sale because I was at work, WORKING. I was contributing to the economy, unlike people who spent the morning hitting their browser's refresh button. I am helping to keep the prices down by keeping the economy stable... or maybe I am bringing them up via inflation... or maybe I am making life hell for insects in Asia.
There is nothing wrong or immoral at all with selling something at a price that someone else is willing to pay for it. As for me, I am not trying to sell anything at all on Ebay and am not planning on starting... well... except maybe the following rare Pixies memorabilia:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2228148357
BTW, yes, this is only my 3rd (or whatever) post on FrankBlack.net but I have been a Pixies/Frank Black fan for at least as long as 82% of the people on this board. Also, I am not just trolling, I will try respond to any reasoned argument.
Thanks,
Jeremy
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igottabrokenface
- FB Fan -
USA
33 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2004 : 05:56:35
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I just wish I could afford to spend $300 dollars on a pair of tickets...maybe I'll save some more. But then I still have to fly to CA. Sigh...I'll get there.
Maybe Ill start asking around my friends and family for an early birthday present. hehe
How long do you think they'll have tickets on ebay? |
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bedrock_barney
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
871 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2004 : 09:18:24
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quote:
Originally posted by MrDOS
I have wanted to reply to this topic for a while, but I had to wait until I actually got my hands on my tickets because I didn't want to be eating crow, if I actually got screwed via Ebay... which has happened only once in several years of using that website.
I bought two tickets via Ebay from two different sellers. Luckily I was one of the earlier buyers and bought them via Buy it Now for roughly $90 each. I was GLAD to pay $180 for my two tickets - I just wish I would have gotten off that easily on the airline tickets to Boise. I see that the Boise concert tickets are now going for about $250-300 for a pair - I would happily pay that much to see my favorite band for the first time in 12 years, if I didn't already have tickets.
I really don't understand why anyone would have problems with so-called "scalpers". It is the age old tradition of supply and demand. But here are some of the arguments that I have heard:
1) Argument: Scalpers buy up all of the tickets quickly and deny them to "real fans" - Reality: Scalpers don't buy tickets so that they can sleep with them or burn them (laughing maniacally) or even so that they can fill the audience with themselves and their non-"real fan" friends. They buy them with the confidence that they can sell them to fans who will love the show at least as much as the fans who paid face value. How come the people who are willing to pay 5x the ticket fee aren't the "real fans"? As far as the official ticket outlets selling out right away goes - if I were Frank Black, I would be looking at that and thinking "Shit, we should be doing a lot more concerts, if that is how bad people want to see the Pixies." Maybe scalpers help the "real fans" get more concerts scheduled.... okay, that is probably pushing it.
2) Argument: Scalpers drive up the prices of tickets - Reality: This seems believable on its face, but I think it is a "butterfly flapping its wings in China" argument. Several factors drive up ticket prices - the degree of popularity of the band drives up the price of the tickets more than anything. So, it's the band's fault - their tickets would be cheap if they would be content to crank out crappy music! On the other hand, the fact that Venues want to guarantee themselves a full house works to keep the prices down. There are way too many other factors that affect ticket pricing to mention here, but the fact that a tiny minority of the tickets are sold on Ebay for inflated prices has very little to do with anything. Even if you believe that the Ebay prices matter - it is the BUYERS driving up the prices, not the SELLERS (scalpers). There go the damn lesser fans again, screwing everything up for the "real fans".
I think that the people bitching about Ebay would love to buy tickets there, but do not have the money or are unwilling to spend the money. "I would do it if I could, but I can't - so I am against anyone else doing it." That is what they seem to be saying... that and other class warfare related drivel.
How about this argument? I couldn't buy tickets when they went on sale because I was at work, WORKING. I was contributing to the economy, unlike people who spent the morning hitting their browser's refresh button. I am helping to keep the prices down by keeping the economy stable... or maybe I am bringing them up via inflation... or maybe I am making life hell for insects in Asia.
There is nothing wrong or immoral at all with selling something at a price that someone else is willing to pay for it. As for me, I am not trying to sell anything at all on Ebay and am not planning on starting... well... except maybe the following rare Pixies memorabilia:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2228148357
BTW, yes, this is only my 3rd (or whatever) post on FrankBlack.net but I have been a Pixies/Frank Black fan for at least as long as 82% of the people on this board. Also, I am not just trolling, I will try respond to any reasoned argument.
Thanks,
Jeremy
I'm not quite sure why you are rushing to protect scalpers (or touts as they are known here in the UK). They have a very seedy reputation over here and rightly so.
The Pixies ticket selling fiasco for the Brixton gigs has been well documented on the forum pages. I, like many others, struggled to buy tickets for any of the gigs despite being ready and waiting on a broadband connection and with telephone also to hand. Approx. 17,000 tickets sold out in a matter of minutes. Many genuine fans missed out yet the touts were able to acquire large numbers of tickets. It was incredibly galling to see tickets on ebay on the very same day that they were first issued and at vastly inflated prices. I've just had a look at ebay.co.uk and estimate that over 150 tickets are currently for sale. I suspect that many more than this have already been sold though ebay and many more are to come. I don't know what % of tickets are in the hands of touts but the ratio is way too high. I find the whole concept highly immoral despite what you say in your post.
I see no positive aspects of scalping/touting. The accessibility of the internet has simply made the problem even worse than it used to be.
 "The Pixies are reforming?? / I say bring back Abba, ahaaa!!!" |
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offerw
* Dog in the Sand *
South Africa
1264 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2004 : 09:48:14
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| MrDos. Surely a serious Pixie fan would buy on eBay rather than some indie kid who wants to see a cool band whilst getting drunk. I am certain though that the tickets could have ended up in the hands of true fans without the help of scalpers/touts. I think you are a bit harsh on people not being able to afford eBay prices. There are many out there not financially capable of eBay prices i.e. scholars, students, etc. Does it not bother you to hand your hard earned cash over to someone who only had some contacts to buy a bunch of tickets and now he is making a killing without doing any honest work? |
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porkbone1
= Cult of Ray =
USA
390 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2004 : 10:21:03
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Exhibit A
Look at the number of tickets on ebay now for the Davis, CA show. As of this moment there are 50 auctions for this show (38% of all the pixies ticket auctions right now are for Davis,CA). These tickets went on sale yesterday and already there are at least 90-100 tickets on ebay!!
Considerations:
1) All the scalpers likely bought AT LEAST 6 tickets each.
2) In order to keep demand high and supply low, sellers usually put one pair at a time up on ebay.
3) This means that there are potentially hundreds of tickets still to be auctioned.
...and yet you say, "a tiny minority of the tickets are sold on Ebay for inflated prices has very little to do with anything"?
In Chicago there is a big controversy over Cubs tickets, because ticket brokers all over the city are selling out every Cubs game by buying all the tickets and reselling them at a higher price. People who can afford to go to the games, do. Some people have no choice but to stay home. Is this capitalism at it's best? Or just a sad state of affairs?
In the end, if I had failed the ticketmaster game, I would have gone to ebay also - I don't really have a solution to this problem either. But does that mean that scalping is okay? "That's just classic supply & demand! Go back to economics class!" If it is such a good idea, then why is it against the law almost everywhere? Why, before ebay, was this not as big a problem?
BTW the statement that buyers are at fault for driving up the price is a circular argument. If it weren't for the low supply, there would be no need to pay high prices, if people weren't willing to pay high prices, the supply wouldn't be so low. And the chicken came first, but only after the egg did.
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roomloo
= Cult of Ray =
USA
710 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2004 : 10:23:51
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MrDos -- you refute two arguments pretty well, but those two arguments aren't ones I see used in those specific words very often. First, as far as denying tickets to the "real fans" ... I think people only point out that scalpers prevent "real fans" from getting the tickets for face value. Take the scalpers out of the picture, and what do you think was the makeup of the group of people on their computers at 10:00am sharp on Friday morning? I would not think more than a small handful of those were just random people who had just stumbled onto Ticketmaster and though, "dude, that's that band that did that song on Fight Club ... I should try for a couple of those!" With a few exceptions, I think it's safe to say the only people buying tickets (or being denied the chance to buy tickets) that morning who weren't "real fans" were the scalpers.
A scalper knowingly denies someone else from buying a ticket at face value (by getting ahead of them in line through either luck or less ethical means) so that they can turn around and sell that ticket to that person at a profit. They serve no purpose for anyone but themselves.
As far as scalpers driving up ticket prices ... I haven't heard the argument that they drive up Ticketmaster prices, and even if they did, that's not something people are concerned about here. Whether Pixies tickets cost $15, $25, or $45 is immaterial ... almost anyone shut out from buying tickets would be happy to pay any of those amounts. Of course, scalpers drive up the prices of tickets on eBay ... because, of course, eBay IS scalpers ... and that seems to be the prevalant argument and one that can't really be refuted.
And MrDos, you are obviously very well-spoken, you seem to have a good job and a fair amount of money ... you really are in a different world from at least a few the people on here. You say you would be happy to see the Pixies for $300 and that the amount of money people are willing to spend somehow separates the "real" fans from the fake ones ... but really, the amount of money people are willing to spend also separates those with money from those without. Suggesting to this board that they should be happy to spend $300 when some of them just plain can't afford it ... I'm sorry, but you might have insulted a few people there.
Finally, it's great to hear that you were saving our economy from ruin on the morning of Feb. 20 rather than sitting in front of your browser, but hopefully you like myself (note: I have a full-time job too) are given a couple weeks of vacation a year which you do in fact use. I was more than happy to use a half a day of my three weeks' vacation for the year to get Pixies tickets ... there are much less productive ways for a "real" Pixies fan to spend a small chunk of their paid time off. |
Edited by - roomloo on 03/02/2004 10:48:00 |
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mbeddis
- FB Fan -
Canada
2 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2004 : 10:26:54
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I am one for the scalpers. Without them, I wouldn't be going to this chance of a lifetime concert. They do offer a second chance for those that didn't get tickets. I would think that having scalpers in the whole mix generally doesn't throw the demand \supply ratio out of wack. It may appear that these small venue pixies shows may be the exception. For the record, I have bought tickets from a scalper below cost. It works both ways and I think they add another fascet to our capitalistic economy.
I went with the 'buy now' option on ebay days after tickets went on sale. $115 USD with shipping for 1 ticket to the Calgary Pixies show. At first I thought I grossly overpaid given that a pair had just sold for $175. The pair were ticketfast tickets that I didn't want. I am happy that I bought when I did. Currently a single ticket is listed on ebay for $172.50 USD and 2 days of bidding to go. I won't be missing this concert thanks to the scalpers.
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roomloo
= Cult of Ray =
USA
710 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2004 : 10:36:22
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| I can see the argument that scalpers are necessary in order to give people a second chance at tickets, and the only way to dole out these second-chance tickets fairly is to inflate the price, but the argument has a problem in that it is BECAUSE of these scalpers that a large number of people need a second chance in the first place. In the end, something has got to give. There is the solution that a few hundred buyers must sacfice their tickets initially so that they and others might have a second chance to buy them later at an inflated price. Then there is the argument that everyone has exactly one chance to buy tickets, and if you miss out, you miss out. Or, maybe if you're lucky you can find someone with extras willing to sell at a fair price (note: that IS being done on this very forum -- look at the Winnipeg thread). It's one or the other, neither is perfect or completely fair, but I feel a lot more comfortable arguing the latter. |
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marbleslinger
- FB Fan -
Canada
134 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2004 : 17:31:29
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so i ended up buying winnipeg tickets off ebay from that dude form york, england.... now i find this forum and y'all have me nervous that i got scammed or got some "bad" tickets or something??
help! im bugged out!! im a die hard, ol skool pixie fan who MUST be in the FIRST show of tour, and now im all nervous that my tickets wont work when i get there( im driving all the way from vancouver, BC)....
and furthermore i got 4 tickets to this show, but i only really needed three, and was hoping to trade one for a vancouver ticket!?
do you guys think these tickets could have gotten cancelled or something?
i have the tickets printed out, but i guess theres no guarantees till i get to the door eh?????
so now what, i have a month and half to wonder whether or not im gonna get into my dream show????
and i wanted to trade this ticket, but i dont want to til i know its legit!!!
argghhh... i thought i was set and now im so nervous that im gonna drive over 24 hours and get denied...
im a struggling artist who spent my last dollars to get these tickets...
karma dont fail me now....
aaron
is there any way for me to check my tickets on the ticketmaster website???????? |
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igottabrokenface
- FB Fan -
USA
33 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2004 : 21:59:30
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So of course my tickets fell through and the girl selling me them for $150 gave my promised tickets to her sister who couldnt get tickets.
After much stressing I finally broke down and bought two tickets off ebay for $250 with Buy it Now.
I have to deposit $75 ASAP tomorrow so I dont get an insufficient funds fee at the bank haha.
Now I just have to save every cent I make till the show so I can afford airfare and a week in CA.
Good places for cheap airfare? |
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MrDOS
- FB Fan -
USA
7 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2004 : 18:29:09
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After I posted my last long message, I re-read through all of the posts in this thread and realized that people who had posted hadn't really been very hard on Ebay or people who sell tickets on Ebay. However, I did read some nasty comments in some of the other threads and I chose to reply to this topic since it was started as a topic about Ebay.
Also, one of the people who sold me a ticket via Ebay actually felt guilty about resorting to "scalping". This person lives in the city where one of the concerts will take place and wanted to follow the Pixies to one or more of their other tour stops and didn't otherwise have the money for the tickets and travel. I really appreciated that they were willing to stand in line at the concert venue and buy tickets when I wasn't able to. When I read a few people's nasty comments about the blood suckers who sell tickets on Ebay, I kind of felt like I should respond.
igottabrokenface: "How long do you think they'll have tickets on ebay?"
I don't know, I was lucky to have gotten in on some early deals where they were going for about $90 (for the Boise show), then they went up to about $150 per ticket. But it looks like they are going back down again and close to going below $100. According to one person who replied to this thread, scalpers hoard tickets and sell them off a few at a time for maximum profit. However, I don't really think that is true. I think bidding goes up and down on Ebay, but the prices will never be as high as during the initial excitement of something being available. I think professional Ebay sellers try to unload while the bidding is fast and furious. They don't want to hold on to stuff and hope that prices go up again. Especially things like tickets that have a finite lifetime. For non-expiring things, I think that sellers have pretty sophisticated ways of watching the market and knowing when it is trending up and when it is trending down. For things like tickets, I would think that there is a finite period of time to sell them, after which the people who want tickets already have them or else have decided that they won't be able to get them.
bedrock barney: "I'm not sure why you are rushing to protect scalpers..."
I am not protecting them at all. I am defending what they do. I benefitted because I was able to buy some that I otherwise might not have. I guess I am grateful about that.
"...I've just had a look at ebay.co.uk and estimate that over 150 tickets are currently for sale..."
Okay that is 150 - sounds like a lot - but 150 out of 17K is less than 1%. Maybe 1500 (10x 150) will be sold via web auction - that is 10%, so 90% will still go to "real fans" at face value. That is pretty good.
"I see no positive aspects of scalping..."
I do - I now have two tickets for a show that had been sold out.
offerw: Your argument boils down to kind of a class-warfare style argument -
"tickets could have ended up in the hands of true fans without the help of scalpers" - This may be true, but tickets could have ended up in the hands of true fans without ticketmaster. The tickets could have ended up in the hands of true fans if they had cost $15 instead of $25. So what? The burden of proof is on someone who claims that earning a profit is immoral, not on the person who claims that there is nothing wrong with it.
"There are many out there not financially capable of [paying] eBay prices." This isn't food we are talking about. It is a ticket to an entertainment event - it is by definition a luxury item. I can't afford a Corvette (though I would like one) so I haven't bought one. It is exactly the mentality that someone HAS to have something that drives up the price. I wanted to have tickets badly, but I was willing to pay the price. By the way, in South Africa, scholars and students may live pretty poorly, but they do alright in the United States. They could afford it here...
"Does it not bother you to hand your hard earned cash over to someone who only had some contacts to buy a bunch of tickets and now he is making a killing without doing any honest work?" I will probably never come up with a good enough argument for people with this attitude - it is straight class warfare. I guess my point in typing this message is to say - No, it does not bother me to pay for something I want, as long as it does not cost more than I am willing to spend. If it costs too much, I won't buy it. I just pay my money for things I need/want and I don't make it my business to determine who the money is going to and do I think that what they got is fair or not. If I did worry about that, I might start thinking that Frank Black is overpaid...
porkbone1: "Look at the number of tickets on ebay now for the Davis, CA show. As of this moment there are 50 auctions for this show (38% of all the pixies ticket auctions right now are for Davis,CA). These tickets went on sale yesterday and already there are at least 90-100 tickets on ebay!!"
What is the size of this venue? I still can't believe that more than 10% of the tickets are being sold via Ebay. Maybe you can prove me wrong...
"All the scalpers likely bought AT LEAST 6 tickets each."
I am not sure of the relevance of this. Would it be okay if they only bought 4 each.
"In order to keep demand high and supply low, sellers usually put one pair at a time up on ebay."
As mentioned above, I don't believe this.
"This means that there are potentially hundreds of tickets still to be auctioned."
I guess this is the point you are trying to make. I would like to see how the number of tickets sold via Ebay compares to the total seating capacity of the venue. Assuming it is less than 10%, is that too much?
Regarding the Chicago Cubs situation: I admit that I don't know anything about this situation. However, I can't believe that scalpers are buying up ALL of the tickets. If that is the case, people could get rid of scalpers tomorrow. They could just refuse to buy any scalper tickets for one event. The scalpers would go broke on that event and that would be it. I am sure that scalpers are smarter about limiting their liability.
"BTW the statement that buyers are at fault for driving up the price is a circular argument. If it weren't for the low supply, there would be no need to pay high prices, if people weren't willing to pay high prices, the supply wouldn't be so low. And the chicken came first, but only after the egg did."
I think you are flat wrong, buyers who are willing to spend a lot drive up the prices - Ebay is the best example I can think of to illustrate that point. And you are wrong about our supply-demand (some might say "evil capitalist") economy - demand creates higher prices which creates more supply. Are you saying that if the prices were low on Ebay there would be more tickets? A concert only holds a fixed number of people... In fact, I would guess that there are MORE tickets available on Ebay because of the high prices. Someone might want to use the tickets themself if they can't get much for them - but knowing that they might triple their money might make them change their mind and sell them. Too bad for Ebay sellers, because more supply = lower prices.
roomloo: "I can see the argument that scalpers are necessary in order to give people a second chance at tickets, and the only way to dole out these second-chance tickets fairly is to inflate the price, but the argument has a problem in that it is BECAUSE of these scalpers that a large number of people need a second chance in the first place. In the end, something has got to give. There is the solution that a few hundred buyers must sacfice their tickets initially so that they and others might have a second chance to buy them later at an inflated price. Then there is the argument that everyone has exactly one chance to buy tickets, and if you miss out, you miss out. Or, maybe if you're lucky you can find someone with extras willing to sell at a fair price (note: that IS being done on this very forum -- look at the Winnipeg thread). It's one or the other, neither is perfect or completely fair, but I feel a lot more comfortable arguing the latter."
I am not sure I totally understand where you ended up in this. But I would like to go back to the person who sold me one of my tickets. They stood in line at the venue on the date of sale and bought some extra tickets. They are selling the extra tickets on Ebay to finance buying tickets in other cities and traveling to see the Pixies several times. I guess some people could think that is not fair, and they are ripping off other people for personal advantage, or whatever. But I respect them for what they are doing and think that they are pretty innovative. They are probably more of "real fan" than I am for doing all of that work. I just wanted the convenience of not having to take off work and being able to order my tickets off of Ebay. I am completely fine with paying extra for that convenience.
Jeremy
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porkbone1
= Cult of Ray =
USA
390 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2004 : 19:21:40
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[FLAME]
I have much more important things to do than respond to your post in a regular fashion. As much as I would like to take you on point for point, this is not a debating club.
You obviously like hearing yourself talk (or type).
So let me give you what you want. You are obviously right. We were all wrong to oppose you. You know everything about everything. You work harder than everyone. I wish I could have a job like you so I could "contribute to the economy" and buy tickets on ebay at inflated prices. Oh wait, I work 70 hours a week and still bought them for $25 each. Oh well!
I have to wonder about people who write very long posts like this, basically shooting down every other person on a board. Why are you here? Do you want respect? Do you want us to thank you for teaching us all of your knowledge? I think I will go to a pro-life website and start posting about how abortions are good. Maybe I will get respect too!
[/FLAME] |
Edited by - porkbone1 on 03/03/2004 19:35:16 |
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roomloo
= Cult of Ray =
USA
710 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2004 : 21:19:37
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Oh God. I changed my mind, forget this scalping shit, let's go back to talking about the Pixies PLEASE.
Edit: Message not directed at Porkbone ... just to make that clear. |
Edited by - roomloo on 03/03/2004 21:21:19 |
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kromkamp
= Cult of Ray =
291 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2004 : 21:46:42
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"...but the argument has a problem in that it is BECAUSE of these scalpers that a large number of people need a second chance in the first place."
This statement I believe is incorrect. Scalpers or no scalpers, a huge number of people will need a second chance.
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roomloo
= Cult of Ray =
USA
710 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2004 : 22:08:09
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Yeah, but that's why I said "a large number of people" rather than "everybody." I didn't state it very clearly I guess.
That does bring up the case of what to do for the people who need a second chance, but I wouldn't support any solution which encourages people to snatch up tickets from under well-meaning fans for the sole purpose of turning a profit.
I guess the crux of my belief (even if it wasn't really stated in my argument) is that whether or not you want to defend the existence of after-market tickets, the means of them getting there, well, the people responsible for them are utter slime and nothing that mrDos or anyone else says is going to make me want to pat the next scalper I meet on the back and give him a hug. Scalpers are still slimy, shady, selfish people (hopefully nobody would attribute any altruism to them whatsoever), and I have no love for them whatsoever. I would much sooner kick them in the nuts than thank them.
Shit, and I said I wanted to talk about the Pixies again... |
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kromkamp
= Cult of Ray =
291 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2004 : 07:31:42
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Hey, I think the cable company is slime, but I dont want them to go away either :-)
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MrDOS
- FB Fan -
USA
7 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2004 : 22:45:27
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While I was going to college in 1991, there were two things that I absolutely loved: First, I loved collecting CDs and listening to them - Pixies CDs more than any other musician/group; Second, I was totally addicted to the Internet. Since there was no web yet, I spent my time typing out long e-mails on music-related e-mail listservs and Usenet groups. Luckily, I never really got into IRC chat or I would never have gotten any sleep...
Compared to these two activities, attending classes and taking end-of-quarter finals seemed very unimportant... Who cares that I was kicked out of college at the end of December 2001? I got to see the Pixies live on the 6th at the Riviera Theater in Chicago. That was very cool.
Things are very different in my life now (I hope), but maybe the re-union of the Pixies plus the associated excitement and nostalgia is also reviving my interest in spending way too much time typing out long-winded Internet messages as well. Probably has more to do with my mother, Freud might say...
Porkbone: Listen - sorry I pissed you off somehow... This is an Internet forum for discussion and some people type out short "I think such and such..." messages and some people spend the time (maybe too much time) to explain their point of view. Do I like hearing myself talk (or type)? Sure! Can you honestly say that you post your opinion in order to benefit mankind? It is as American as apple pie to want to share your opinion with anyone who will listen (or read). People who hate sharing their opinions tend to not participate in Internet discussion forums.
I think you misunderstood my reason for responding "point by point" to everyone. I know that there are people who type out long messages to rile everyone up and then disappear forever - i.e. trolling. I was trying to prove I WASN'T doing that. I thought I was being reponsible by responding to people's individual points.
I said some inflamatory things. For example, I called some people's arguments "class warfare drivel" - I guess I was admitting that I don't have a convincing argument for people who think that people with more money than themselves don't deserve it.
I somehow gave a few people the impression that I have tons of money and a nice life and it's easy to throw my wads of cash around. That is further from the truth than I would like to explain here - I could get SERIOUSLY long-winded. I would guess that my income would fall very close to the average for people on this board. One thing about my job that I can share is that the company where I work considers me semi-essential to operations and it is hard for me to take days off without adequate notice.
Because of that, I appreciate that other people were willing to buy tickets and then sell them to me on Ebay. I didn't mind that they charged me extra - presumably to pay for their time and trouble. That is what I was trying to say in my original post to this thread.
roomloo: I agree that we are all interested in talking about the Pixies, but this thread is about Ebay - there are hundreds of other threads about other topics. There are plenty of readers that want to discuss their favorite song and all that. But let's be honest: The Pixies have been broken up for a dozen years and the only CDs that have come out during that time have basically been re-treads. In the last month, there has been about a dozen press releases and these have been exciting and worthy of discussion. However, each one has been disected ad nauseum in the other threads. I am still thinking that this thread is about Ebay.
To your point about scalpers, I think you and I have a fundamental difference in opinions: I am all in favor of people earning a profit on anything they can - as long as it doesn't poison childrens' drinking water... You are the type of person that judges whether the profit that someone earns is "fair" - based on the amount of profit and the way it is earned. If someone is earning "unfair" profits - they are slimy, shady, etc.
I judge whether someone is charging a "fair" price for something or not, too. But if I think that it is an "unfair" price, I just don't pay it. I don't usually make judgements about whether the seller is slimy or not - especially if I have never met them in person.
My point all along has been that I think of scalpers as being Value Added Resellers. They buy something and add value to it and sell it at a higher price. What value do they add? They add convenience and a second chance for people like me who missed the tickets the first time around.
If Ticketmaster or the music artist don't like this practice, I am all in favor of them taking 10% of the tickets for each concert and auctioning them off directly via Ebay. That would eliminate the scalpers to some extent.
Maybe this thread about Ebay has run its course and there is nothing left to say. I feel like I made my points...
Thanks everyone,
Jeremy
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roomloo
= Cult of Ray =
USA
710 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2004 : 09:17:46
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I guess I have a couple more things to share. Because your reduction to scalping as simply "earning a profit" ... I don't think there is even a matter of judgment in there, I just think the comparison is fundamentally wrong. It is overly simplistic, and I think you are too smart to not know that.
For one thing, there apparently is some sort of cap imposed on the price that Ticketmaster could charge for a ticket, because if prices were dictated solely by supply and demand they would have been sold for upwards of $75 a piece from the getgo -- probably more, because optimally (from Ticketmaster's standpoint) the tickets would be priced so as not to sell out until the day of the show. The actual prices as far as I can guess are designed to let consumers have the chance to buy tickets without needing to be in an an overly high income bracket, probably government-mandated, and regardless are not intended that way for the system to be abused, i.e., for entrepreneurial individuals to view the price as a "wholesale" price designed for them to re-sell for a profit. While this admittedly does not prove anything, consider that governments and Ticketmaster view this behavior as so wrong that they cancel tickets and/or prosecute the culprits when they see this taking place. So you're in a pretty small minority in defending the scalpers, for what it's worth.
Or put another way, consider that you seem to see the number of tickets bought by a scalper as having little or no effect on the morality of what they are doing:
"Would it be okay if they only bought 4 each."
Okay, fair enough. Let's go to the other extreme. Purely hypothetically speaking, if a scalper were to somehow buy ALL of the tickets before the first "real" fan could get their hands on one (or, if all of the tickets were bought by individual scalpers), would you congratulate the scalper(s) on their shrewd business sense (remember, they're merely "earning a profit"), or would you be a little less forgiving of them?
It's an exaggerated and purely hypothetical scenario, but if we're just judging the act of scalping per se here, and you seem to think the amount of scalping is irrelevant, I think the scenario is relevant given the assumption that scalping is either wrong or it's not.
I would have no problem with a scalper "earning a profit" in this fashion if it weren't for the fact that for each ticket a scalper buys for the sole purpose of turning around for a markip, one less ticket can be bought at face value by someone who truly wants that ticket for themselves, i.e., for the reason that Ticketmaster's selling and pricing of the tickets intends. You seem to seriously believe that the world would be a worse place if scalpers didn't exist. Or, you must believe the world already IS a worse place because Ticketmaster shut down all the Winnipeg auctions on eBay. And on that, maybe we will just never agree. |
Edited by - roomloo on 03/06/2004 09:28:04 |
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roomloo
= Cult of Ray =
USA
710 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2004 : 10:42:28
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Thinking about this a little more, Jeremy. You're arguing from the point of view of those who never had a chance to buy tickets the first time around -- a completely valid point of view. I'm arguing from the point of view of those who tried to get their tickets when they first went on sale, but were unsuccessful because of the scalpers -- another completely valid point of view *.
And you know what? I don't think anything will ever satisfy both camps. It looks to me (unless someone has a brilliant solution) like a no-win situation, which is why you and I could probably argue this until the end of time if we don't call a truce first.
But I still think scalpers are bad people :)
(In spite of the fact that they do provide a service to some -- they also provide a disservice to others, which more or less cancels out their benefit).
By the way, not to be incendiary at all -- but just out of curiosity, how do you feel about spammers? I could definitely see the argument that they are merely out there to make a profit without causing excessive harm to anyone else, but I hold them in about the same low level of esteem as I hold scalpers...
- Dave
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* I realize that some of them wouldn't have gotten their tickets regardless of whether there were scalpers, and I guess that portion would then fall into your camp. |
Edited by - roomloo on 03/06/2004 10:50:39 |
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minnefan
- FB Fan -
2 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2004 : 15:06:03
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Hi,
I'm new to this forum and have been reading through these past posts. I wish I knew about this website last week!!! (I also missed out on the Minneapolis tickets)
I must see the show in Minneapolis. I must. I live half an hour away, and I must see the show. Have I mentioned that I must see the show?
I have decided to buy tickets off of ebay (unless somebody else has a better idea?). My question is whether or not to use buy it now? I thought that the best strategy on ebay was to wait until the last moment to bid. But all of the auctions I have been watching on ebay for the last few days are finishing before the end of the auction because other people are using buy it now! And now the prices have gone up? (I think because of simple supply and demand, in other words NO supply, HUGE demand).
Suggestions? Any possibility of the Pixies playing here on the 12th? I must see them in Minneapolis! |
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roomloo
= Cult of Ray =
USA
710 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2004 : 15:24:30
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If you're willing to pay the Buy It Now price ... BUY IT NOW. Once you've been to the show, you won't be second guessing the $25-50 you MIGHT have saved by just waiting (or of course, the prices just might have gone higher).
But I dunno, man. eBay is a rough scene but if you feel like you have to do it, do it. It's not looking like there will be nearly enough extras to go around on this forum, so unless you know some people face value is starting to look kind of bleak.
Don't forget the option of Winnipeg ... it's a 6-7 hour drive but on the other hand, you can probably get tickets for about half the price of Minneapolis. Plus the thrill of a road trip and meeting tons of Pixies fans on this forum who are traveling from far and wide to see that show. |
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porkbone1
= Cult of Ray =
USA
390 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2004 : 16:31:37
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I agree. The cheapest I have seen 2 tickets go for on ebay for this show is $390. That was BUY IT NOW. The others were $550 and $450 for 2 tickets, and the next set of 2 tickets is already going up. I would use BUY IT NOW if you can, otherwise I think the Winnipeg show is going to be awesome.
There are several websites at which you can get tickets for Winnipeg, for about $150-160 each, or there may be some people here who might let go of tickets. I will be there, as will Roomloo, however -- and as it is the "official" kick-off point of the tour, it is likely to be an unbelievable experience.
_______________________
The joke has come upon me |
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pixiesseixip
- FB Fan -
75 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2004 : 16:51:46
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holy CRAPP! someone just bought 1 ticket to Minneapolis for $350!
Was that you minnefan?
We should boycott ebay! If a couple of these auctions end with no winner, then prices will drop!
(I know, I know. I'm being naive. Dare to dream) |
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Shastasheen
- FB Fan -
62 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2004 : 17:42:10
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FUCK EBAY! FUCK SCALPERS AND TOUTS! FUCK BIDDING! FUCK BUY IT NOW! FUCK FORUMS! FUCK THE INTERNET! FUCK COMPUTERS! FUCK MONEY! FUCK CREDIT CARDS! FUCK EVERYTHING THAT COMES IN BETWEEN PEOPLE AND MUSIC THEY LIKE!
All I Am Are My Thoughts |
Edited by - Shastasheen on 03/15/2004 02:53:14 |
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porkbone1
= Cult of Ray =
USA
390 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2004 : 19:14:22
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Don't hold back there, Shastasheen, tell us what you really think! haha
_______________________
The joke has come upon me |
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otto_jr
- FB Fan -
50 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2004 : 16:54:08
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| Hate to break it to ya Minnefan but it looks like Minnesota residents can't bid on the Minneapolis tickets. I feel your pain. |
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echo park
- FB Fan -
Saint Barthelemy
128 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2004 : 17:37:18
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I would give it a little time. It seems like scalping prices go down after a couple weeks. Eugene tickets were ebaying for something like $200 and up for a pair just after they sold out, but I won an ebay auction the other day for $102. for a pair.
And once they announce the next 'first' show in Sioux Falls, they'll be even cheaper! |
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to eBay, or not to eBay?!??!!!
