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Carl
- A 'Fifth' Catholic -
Ireland
11546 Posts |
 Posted - 02/23/2004 : 09:24:28
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I know the vet suggestion was desperate, but you WERE asking 'what would you do?' and I could'nt think of anything...besides what you did, which I think was the right thing!
CARL.
 "ME TOO!"
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ramona
"FB Quote Mistress"
USA
3988 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2004 : 11:40:42
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Oh my. This thread is horrifying me. I don't know why but I absolutely cannot deal with animal death of any kind. I also had two cats get run over - so, yuck.
Anyway, Carolyanna, I think you did the right thing. I don't think I would have been brave enough to do that myself, but it is nice to know that he/she didn't suffer too much. Poor thing and poor you! I hope you feel okay about it all. I think you did everything you could, really. 
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"Music does not drag me down. Music lifts me up." - Frank Black |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2004 : 12:10:58
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| Interesting that about a century ago almost everybody in the world was experienced in killing and gutting mammals and fish. And to think that some people actually believe humanity is progressing relative to some sound measure. |
Edited by - Erebus on 02/23/2004 12:12:32 |
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ramona
"FB Quote Mistress"
USA
3988 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2004 : 12:58:06
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Well, there is a difference between killing an animal b/c you need it to survive and running one over by accident, don't you think?
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"Music does not drag me down. Music lifts me up." - Frank Black |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2004 : 13:03:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
And to think that some people actually believe humanity is progressing relative to some sound measure.
i'm not sure what you mean by this sentence. |
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ramona
"FB Quote Mistress"
USA
3988 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2004 : 13:04:56
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I think it's a riddle.
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"Music does not drag me down. Music lifts me up." - Frank Black |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2004 : 13:18:36
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| hmm. |
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Adnan_le_Terrible
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1973 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2004 : 13:55:32
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quote:
Originally posted by ramona
Oh my. This thread is horrifying me. I don't know why but I absolutely cannot deal with animal death of any kind. I also had two cats get run over - so, yuck.
Anyway, Carolyanna, I think you did the right thing. I don't think I would have been brave enough to do that myself, but it is nice to know that he/she didn't suffer too much. Poor thing and poor you! I hope you feel okay about it all. I think you did everything you could, really.
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"Music does not drag me down. Music lifts me up." - Frank Black
Don't misunderstand me, I really like animals and I am really horrified when I see a dead animal near the road. I think a person who is cruel to animals can be cruel to people in the same way.
However, I recently saw an interview with a Canadian general who was there with the UN forces during the war. In 6 months, 500 000 people got slaughtered, and he tried to alert people on what's happening, but noone really cared, probably because the victims were black Africans. His interview was really touching, he said he tried to commit a suicide a couple of times while there. He was really angry, he declared "If the lives of 300 gorillas were threatened, international reactions would probably have been far more significant".
My point is that I understand when someone is upset after accidentally killing an animal (It never happened to me, but I think it would really disturb me). But I think we should first care about what's happening to people in some parts of the globe. In the western countries (in France as well as in the US), people are sometimes more concerned about puppies then about African children.
I am thinking of joining an organization like Amnesty International, these days.
Have some wine, please, don't run away. |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2004 : 14:12:25
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quote:
Originally posted by ramona
Oh my. This thread is horrifying me. I don't know why but I absolutely cannot deal with animal death of any kind.
Ramona, I was referring, in part, to this statement, but I was also addressing the thread as a whole. The idea is that we are increasingly out of touch with our reality as animals. Life is bloody but as "civilized" we seek to remove ourselves from life as such. Just seems so futile. Even if we succeeded in insulating ourselves for generations or centuries, eventually we will return to nature bloody of fang and claw (or however Hobbes put it). Life is physically tough, for all organisms and species, but humans seem singularly driven to escape that. Further, I seems quite obvious to me that it is the political left that is most guilty in this willful ignorance of the basic facts of animalian existence, in that they would impose public policy that would attempt, futilely, to thwart the forces of nature, much as the Dutch boy would hold back the ocean with his finger in the dike. We can succeed in resisting nature for years and even centuries, but the price of that success will be much greater later. We would do better to stay in touch with the actualities of nature, and pay fair prices in blood, sweat, and tears, than we will by attempting to shield ourselves. Things die. Squirrels. Babies. We should embrace that. |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2004 : 14:18:14
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quote:
Originally posted by floop
quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
And to think that some people actually believe humanity is progressing relative to some sound measure.
i'm not sure what you mean by this sentence.
floop, perhaps my post above addresses this. I see much of what is characterized as "progress" in medicine, social policy, education, morality, etc. as regression into a condition of delusion. |
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ramona
"FB Quote Mistress"
USA
3988 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2004 : 14:25:42
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Oy.
I think you boys might have taken my "this thread is horrifying me" statement as a specific response to something you said - it wasn't. I'm not saying I find the death of people any more or less horrifying or that I don't understand that things die. All I meant was, animal getting squished by car = sad.
I think my statement must have thudded down on you guys somehow, but I was really just being general/breezy/universal.
I PERSONALLY find accidental animal death (and any death really) upsetting. I know it happens, but I think it can be sad, especially when the person who ran the animal over is sad about it. That's all.
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"Music does not drag me down. Music lifts me up." - Frank Black |
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ramona
"FB Quote Mistress"
USA
3988 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2004 : 14:28:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
Things die. Squirrels. Babies. We should embrace that.
Oh, and this is never going to happen. Maybe it is my own personal experience with death, but while I understand everything dies, I will never embrace that. Ever.
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"Music does not drag me down. Music lifts me up." - Frank Black |
Edited by - ramona on 02/23/2004 14:28:58 |
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Homers_pet_monkey
= Official forum monkey =
United Kingdom
17125 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2004 : 14:39:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
quote:
Originally posted by floop
quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
And to think that some people actually believe humanity is progressing relative to some sound measure.
i'm not sure what you mean by this sentence.
floop, perhaps my post above addresses this. I see much of what is characterized as "progress" in medicine, social policy, education, morality, etc. as regression into a condition of delusion.
Interesting theory, please go on.
Hansel and Gretel have formed a band, .....And You Will Know Us By The Trail Of Breadcrumbs!!! |
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Adnan_le_Terrible
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1973 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2004 : 15:14:07
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quote:
Originally posted by ramona
Oy.
I think you boys might have taken my "this thread is horrifying me" statement as a specific response to something you said - it wasn't. I'm not saying I find the death of people any more or less horrifying or that I don't understand that things die. All I meant was, animal getting squished by car = sad.
I think my statement must have thudded down on you guys somehow, but I was really just being general/breezy/universal.
I PERSONALLY find accidental animal death (and any death really) upsetting. I know it happens, but I think it can be sad, especially when the person who ran the animal over is sad about it. That's all.
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"Music does not drag me down. Music lifts me up." - Frank Black
My comment wasn't aimed at you in particular, really. As I already said, I think I would have exactly the same reaction as you.
Have some wine, please, don't run away. |
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ramona
"FB Quote Mistress"
USA
3988 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2004 : 16:36:04
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Okay. Since you quoted me, I thought it was. Never mind.
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"Music does not drag me down. Music lifts me up." - Frank Black |
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Dave Noisy
Minister of Chaos
Canada
4496 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2004 : 00:27:12
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Yes, everyone is going to die, but that is no excuse or justification for a lacky of sympathy or empathy, and doing anything else really does make us less 'human'.
I don't know if i'm more saddened by the creature who was run over, or the reactions that people have to it...
 Join the Cult of the Flying Pigxies - I'm A Believer! |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2004 : 07:25:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
We would do better to stay in touch with the actualities of nature, and pay fair prices in blood, sweat, and tears, than we will by attempting to shield ourselves. Things die. Squirrels. Babies. We should embrace that.
i'm curious what you're doing, personally, to stay more in touch with the actualities of nature.. or what you suggest people do (other than accepting that things die)..
the advancement of civiliation has had many deleterious effects, but it's also enriched human life. personally, i'm glad we have the kind of medicine and health care we have in the 21st century because, well, i'd rather live longer as opposed to shorter. dying of chicken pox at age 16 doesn't sound too hip to me.
i'm all for embracing the idea of death, and accepting the cycle of life etc.. but does that mean we should stop taking care of ourselves and go out of our way to get into some bloody hand-to-hand combat? |
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Adnan_le_Terrible
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1973 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2004 : 07:34:17
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We should start a fight club in order to keep ourselves in touch with mother nature. I warn you : I only fight against girls!
Have some wine, please, don't run away. |
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Homers_pet_monkey
= Official forum monkey =
United Kingdom
17125 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2004 : 10:36:56
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As long as Brad is our leader!!! 
Hansel and Gretel have formed a band, .....And You Will Know Us By The Trail Of Breadcrumbs!!! |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2004 : 11:38:12
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quote:
Originally posted by floop
quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
We would do better to stay in touch with the actualities of nature, and pay fair prices in blood, sweat, and tears, than we will by attempting to shield ourselves. Things die. Squirrels. Babies. We should embrace that.
i'm curious what you're doing, personally, to stay more in touch with the actualities of nature.. or what you suggest people do (other than accepting that things die)..
the advancement of civiliation has had many deleterious effects, but it's also enriched human life. personally, i'm glad we have the kind of medicine and health care we have in the 21st century because, well, i'd rather live longer as opposed to shorter. dying of chicken pox at age 16 doesn't sound too hip to me.
i'm all for embracing the idea of death, and accepting the cycle of life etc.. but does that mean we should stop taking care of ourselves and go out of our way to get into some bloody hand-to-hand combat?
Fair question. As for myself, I'm not doing squat. Life is just something that matter does. But life does entail capacities for pleasure and pain so I live to optimize the balance. However, I suggest to those who maintain that there is more to life that they vote to adopt social policies which will force a more realistic relationship with nature. Humans use intelligence to control their vulnerability to consequences of decisions. If, rather, we constrained ourselves to governmental policies that resulted in more immediate feedback for behavior, we would be better off in the long run (assuming it actually means anything to use such terms as "better"). Examples, in brief: Government should not be involved in social welfare, education, health care, etc. If couples have more children then they can support, they should face the consequences. If a single parent, admittedly most often the mother, is stranded with children, govt should not dictate that the “deadbeat dad” should pay child support/alimony. The mother made a poor choice of mates. Let that choice play out. Let the 12 year olds of the community see how serious this game of life is. Let those who made the mistake pay for it, if only in the form of the suffering of their children (their DNA), growing up under deprived conditions. (Marriage should be treated as contractual arrangement. People should be able to printout a five page generic contract which spells out responsibilities in the event of divorce or abandonment. If dispute ensues, take it to court on the basis of breach of contract, but the govt should make no blanket laws dictating how much party A should pay to party B.) Make school attendance voluntary, and fund ALL schools from user fees. Pay as you go for everything, especially education and health care. If the student screws up, throw him out. Let him grow up as a street urchin, into a criminal, and deal with him as criminal, again without spending any public money on his imprisonment. Or let him mend his ways and attempt to get back into school, having seen the better way. But most of all, let there be immediate consequences for decisions, poor and good. Extend these principles of freedom, responsiblity, and proportionality into every aspect of human existence. All of this is not to say that private charities cannot exist. Or that groups cannot privately and voluntarily pool their resources for common ends and services.
Of course this sounds cruel by the lights of today, but I would maintain that is mostly because we have allowed things to get so far out shape. If such measures had been implemented long ago the present day would be much kinder than it is. We would exist in a state of moderation with the actualities of nature, to include human nature. But we all know none of what I propose has a snowflake's chance of being adopted. No, we'll continue on our way to the best of our ability, either eventually taking it so far that the whole structure collapses into, ironically, a condition much like that I recommend, or more likely, and pessimistically, gradually subsiding into the society glimpsed in A Clockwork Orange. Can't say we don't deserve it.
Anyway, floop, it’s not so much that I would prescribe specific behaviors as it is that I would suggest society make certain global changes of moral philosophy and applications thereof, and then the changes of the human relation to nature would ensue. I suggest that such changes would be conducive to richer and more authentic lives (if one believes such distinctions are possible). I for one know that I would soon disappear under the very regime I champion, but that’s OK. Life is not worth so much that I’d be willing to struggle for it.
Despite appearances to the contrary, I really dislike these diatribes and running debates. They require too much work. I’d prefer to simply snipe from distant trees and hills, at targets of opportunity. Guess one needs more than snipers to fight a war. But by writing a few quick and dirty paragraphs I open myself to countless valid objections which I really would prefer not do deal with. It all seems so pointless. How often is anyone actually convinced by any of this? Sure, it can be fun, but I really only enjoy the sniping. After all, sniping’s so clinical; no need for an up-close experience of the bloody realities on the receiving end.
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Homers_pet_monkey
= Official forum monkey =
United Kingdom
17125 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2004 : 15:08:32
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(Insert farting noise here)
Hansel and Gretel have formed a band, .....And You Will Know Us By The Trail Of Breadcrumbs!!! |
Edited by - Homers_pet_monkey on 02/24/2004 15:10:25 |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2004 : 15:10:35
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quote:
Despite appearances to the contrary, I really dislike these diatribes and running debates
Says he who has just written the longest post in ages ranting about the subject.
 "I joined the Cult Of Boni/Get Off My Trolley!" |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2004 : 17:17:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
Fair question. As for myself, I'm not doing squat. Life is just something that matter does. But life does entail capacities for pleasure and pain so I live to optimize the balance. However, I suggest to those who maintain that there is more to life that they vote to adopt social policies which will force a more realistic relationship with nature. Humans use intelligence to control their vulnerability to consequences of decisions. If, rather, we constrained ourselves to governmental policies that resulted in more immediate feedback for behavior, we would be better off in the long run (assuming it actually means anything to use such terms as "better"). Examples, in brief: Government should not be involved in social welfare, education, health care, etc. If couples have more children then they can support, they should face the consequences. If a single parent, admittedly most often the mother, is stranded with children, govt should not dictate that the “deadbeat dad” should pay child support/alimony. The mother made a poor choice of mates. Let that choice play out. Let the 12 year olds of the community see how serious this game of life is. Let those who made the mistake pay for it, if only in the form of the suffering of their children (their DNA), growing up under deprived conditions. (Marriage should be treated as contractual arrangement. People should be able to printout a five page generic contract which spells out responsibilities in the event of divorce or abandonment. If dispute ensues, take it to court on the basis of breach of contract, but the govt should make no blanket laws dictating how much party A should pay to party B.) Make school attendance voluntary, and fund ALL schools from user fees. Pay as you go for everything, especially education and health care. If the student screws up, throw him out. Let him grow up as a street urchin, into a criminal, and deal with him as criminal, again without spending any public money on his imprisonment. Or let him mend his ways and attempt to get back into school, having seen the better way. But most of all, let there be immediate consequences for decisions, poor and good. Extend these principles of freedom, responsiblity, and proportionality into every aspect of human existence. All of this is not to say that private charities cannot exist. Or that groups cannot privately and voluntarily pool their resources for common ends and services.
Of course this sounds cruel by the lights of today, but I would maintain that is mostly because we have allowed things to get so far out shape. If such measures had been implemented long ago the present day would be much kinder than it is. We would exist in a state of moderation with the actualities of nature, to include human nature. But we all know none of what I propose has a snowflake's chance of being adopted. No, we'll continue on our way to the best of our ability, either eventually taking it so far that the whole structure collapses into, ironically, a condition much like that I recommend, or more likely, and pessimistically, gradually subsiding into the society glimpsed in A Clockwork Orange. Can't say we don't deserve it.
Anyway, floop, it’s not so much that I would prescribe specific behaviors as it is that I would suggest society make certain global changes of moral philosophy and applications thereof, and then the changes of the human relation to nature would ensue. I suggest that such changes would be conducive to richer and more authentic lives (if one believes such distinctions are possible). I for one know that I would soon disappear under the very regime I champion, but that’s OK. Life is not worth so much that I’d be willing to struggle for it.
Despite appearances to the contrary, I really dislike these diatribes and running debates. They require too much work. I’d prefer to simply snipe from distant trees and hills, at targets of opportunity. Guess one needs more than snipers to fight a war. But by writing a few quick and dirty paragraphs I open myself to countless valid objections which I really would prefer not do deal with. It all seems so pointless. How often is anyone actually convinced by any of this? Sure, it can be fun, but I really only enjoy the sniping. After all, sniping’s so clinical; no need for an up-close experience of the bloody realities on the receiving end.
if you take the approach that you'd rather not deal with discussing these things (after throwing an opinion out there), then i guess your opinion doesn't really matter, if you don't care enough to back it up.
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Edited by - floop on 02/24/2004 18:00:09 |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2004 : 18:24:42
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| Sorry, I guess I didn't realize how that would be taken. It's not that I don't care. It's just that it seems to follow a familiar pattern where I post cryptic remarks, followed by an unconventional explanation which is then rejected by most. I would prefer to restrict myself to short posts but it seems they never capture the gist. The final paragraph was added to offer insight into how I feel about the usefulness of such exercises, as a practical matter. I do care, too much, but caring seems to make such little difference. |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2004 : 23:27:43
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sorry if that sounded harsh erebus.. i just feel like, if you're going to throw an opinion out there, you should be willing to back up what you're talking about.
i usually appreciate your posts too (as someone else stated), though i don't see eye to eye with you on this topic. |
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Bartholomew
= Cult of Ray =
USA
344 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2004 : 06:43:49
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| The worst anumal to hit is a turtle. That meaty “thwop” sound is horrible. One time I hit a bird. It flew into the glass of my driver’s side window. If I had the window down, it may have killed me. Weird to think... There’s a town not far from me famous for its albino squirrels. It’s like 90% albino’s, 10% brown. Although surely there are some mulattos in the mix. All these posts remind me of that hilarious deer scene in “The Straight Story”. That’s really how it is out here in the country. Like they come out of nowhere. ramble ramble ramble... Me, I just keep on driving when I hit squirrels. It’s easier on the soul that way. |
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Bartholomew
= Cult of Ray =
USA
344 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2004 : 09:31:19
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| Wow, I hadn’t bothered to read the entire thread before posting. After hearing Erebus’ comments I feel compelled to comment if for no other reason than to defend life itself. And I think ol life deserves that. Basically, Erebus, you are either wrong or right, correct? Either there is no point to our existence or there is. So why not choose to believe you can in fact make a difference. Nothing to lose either way, right. This way you live a more fulfilled and satisfied life, see. While still not perfect, if’s far more enjoyable than the bleak view. |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2004 : 09:16:35
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| I don't think people can choose what to believe. And perhaps life needs to be defended, but I doubt it deserves it. Thanks for the comments. |
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GoddessTheory
= Cult of Ray =
USA
675 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2004 : 09:38:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
I don't think people can choose what to believe.
Watch me.
I don't believe that in the slightest. And I don't even care to hear how you can back up such a statement. |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2004 : 10:08:36
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| For starters, free will is a myth. I KNOW that you cannot competently explain what you mean by "choosing to believe". |
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GoddessTheory
= Cult of Ray =
USA
675 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2004 : 11:45:25
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I can't even competently explain why I don't care.
I don't go around stating whatever I say is the be all and end all.
Free will is a myth says you.
You are not wrong. You are not right. it's just what you say.
You could sit here and post "The Sky is Blue" but it's not where I sit, buddy.
So maybe before you continue posting "this is this and that is that" you may want to back off the forcefulness of your statements and open up to the fact that not everyone thinks like you or believes in you at all.
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2004 : 12:02:54
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quote:
Originally posted by GoddessTheory
So maybe before you continue posting "this is this and that is that" you may want to back off the forcefulness of your statements
Give me a reason to and perhaps I will. |
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GoddessTheory
= Cult of Ray =
USA
675 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2004 : 12:18:31
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Brilliant. Well, this conversation is Oh-ver.
It's been. |
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TheCroutonFuton
- Mr. Setlists -
USA
1728 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2004 : 12:56:21
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I was at an island in Lake Erie a couple of years ago with a friend who has a house there. I love skipping stones...I used to be a side-armed pitcher so it's very easy for me to skip large or strangely shaped stones. Well he and I were skipping stones on the lake one evening and I had this very large, somewhat sharp rock. I threw it perfectly...but it skipped quite a long ways..hit a wave just the wrong way and hit this duck that had come out of nowhere. It started to fly away but one of it's wings was broken! So we went back and got a net so we could try and take the duck to a veterinarian that lives there. We caught the duck and went to the vet's house but he wasn't on the island at the time! So we took the duck back into the water and let him go.  I've never felt so horrible in my life. His other neighbor (who is literally retarded) didn't help things either..she just came up to me and started yelling about how I did it on purpose and how she should throw rocks at me. That made me so sad because I didn't do it on purpose at all! I didn't even see the poor duck. I hope he got better...aww..it still gets me really depressed...meh. I absolutely despise people who torture animals on purpose. I think Cobain put it well when he said:
"If you're really a mean person you're going to come back as a fly and eat poop. You'll come back as a fly or Matt Lukin."
 "Join the Cult of Gunn / And Then You'll Be Destined to be a Rock and Roll Star of Epical Proportions!" |
Edited by - TheCroutonFuton on 02/27/2004 13:08:03 |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2004 : 14:55:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
I don't think people can choose what to believe. And perhaps life needs to be defended, but I doubt it deserves it. Thanks for the comments.
is this a cry for help? |
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Topic |
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Distraught-What would you do?
