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Brank_Flack
* Dog in the Sand *
Canada
1039 Posts |
 Posted - 12/12/2024 : 08:52:08
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Yeah, I'm on the more-is-more side with Frank. He's an intuitive snake feeling his way rather than an painstaking architect of a grand vision. He writes in batches for studio sessions, and admits himself that he's not great at quality control in the moment. So, his songwriting style does not lend itself towards accumulating gems over a few years in order to release a great mission statement. The more albums we get means the more gems he writes, less pressure on each album to be a mission statement, and more room for experimentation and even interesting misfires, even at the expense of a few duds.
(This is in part why I think the comparison with Kim Deal's new album in the other thread was an apples for oranges comparison, as this is decidedly not how Kim works.) |
Edited by - Brank_Flack on 12/12/2024 08:53:16 |
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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Netherlands
6245 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2024 : 13:05:50
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Kim works slow
One of the reasons she fell out with Robert Pollard
You can't compare Kim and Frank at all.
Funnily enough, both Frank and Kim have a thing for country and analog recording.
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BF: Mag ik Engels spreken? |
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Troubles A Foot
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1000 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2024 : 18:44:34
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quote:
Originally posted by billgoodman
Kim works slow
One of the reasons she fell out with Robert Pollard
You can't compare Kim and Frank at all.
I'm not sure I understand why you can't compare them. You can compare albums of any artist with other artists, right? And they're both in the indie/alternative rock genre and come from the same band. Of course they're comparable. And Kim put out a new album and Pixies put out a new album and I think Kim's is of far greater quality. I can compare Kim's album with other artists who put out new albums too in the past year. What does the speed at which they work have to do with that? You can compare movies from different directors that work at different speeds too. |
Edited by - Troubles A Foot on 12/12/2024 20:38:17 |
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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Netherlands
6245 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2024 : 23:48:06
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Sorry, I mean more in a general sense
Of course albums to albums is more than fine
But I never understood the whole Beatles vs Stones thing too
Kim and Frank are totally different giants
Frank is more is more (cause he can go every way, both good and bad)
Kim is less is more (cause she basically does the same thing over and over)
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BF: Mag ik Engels spreken? |
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Mad Lucas
- FB Fan -
Australia
166 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2024 : 02:56:00
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The issue in evaluating an artist by their entire history of work, then comparing that artist to another and their work, is that we make assumptions regarding what makes the music 'good', both on its own terms and according to our personal understanding of 'good', which we never exactly share with another person.
I've had this conversation with Trouble in another topic but I personally find the Pixies album to be better than Kim's recent work. I don't think she is the same calibre of artist and doesn't have the songwriting chops. Nonetheless, on her own terms, as an artist that prioritises aesthetic, mood, attitude, and as one who seems to always be chasing the same sound, I can appreciate and enjoy the album, though when set against her other work there is a point of diminishing returns. It's a bit like Dinosaur Jr. When you've written the same song seven times there's a lessening of impact.
My opinion is grounded in prioritising songcraft, engagement with or response to music tradition, hearing an artist evolve, among other things. Frank/Black/Charles hits that spot for me. |
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Skatealex1
* Dog in the Sand *
1688 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2024 : 05:43:50
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I guess it may be subjective to some degrees but almost every song on Kim's new album is more interesting and fun to me than the new Pixies album.
I also feel like FB's songwriting hasn't exactly improved in recent years compared to his best stuff. At least the lyrics improved since Doggerel but on that album stuff like "There's a Moon on" and "I went to 711 and I think it's really great" felt like amateur hour from what I expect from Frank (no offense to the man).
From Kim's album- Crystal Breath, Are You Mine, Big Ben Beat, A Good Time Pushed are all more exciting/relistinable than just about any song from the last two Pixies album for me. |
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Brank_Flack
* Dog in the Sand *
Canada
1039 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2024 : 06:30:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Mad Lucas
I've had this conversation with Trouble in another topic but I personally find the Pixies album to be better than Kim's recent work. I don't think she is the same calibre of artist and doesn't have the songwriting chops. Nonetheless, on her own terms, as an artist that prioritises aesthetic, mood, attitude, and as one who seems to always be chasing the same sound, I can appreciate and enjoy the album, though when set against her other work there is a point of diminishing returns. [...]
My opinion is grounded in prioritising songcraft, engagement with or response to music tradition, hearing an artist evolve, among other things. Frank/Black/Charles hits that spot for me.
I agree with this. I think Kim has immaculate aesthetic taste and a knack for arrangements, but Frank's songwriting is just more idiosyncratic and interesting to me. Nobody Loves You More is a pleasant listen, but it veers a bit too close to well-produced-indie-music-by-the-numbers. I'll take Primrose, Jane, Mercy Me, Motoroller, Kings of the Prairie over most of NLYM, whereas The Night the Zombies Came came together in weeks or months as opposed to a decade. |
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Bedbug
> Teenager of the Year <
3197 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2024 : 06:52:52
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Related I think to this topic:
Was it that Kim had a real sense of how amazing 1.0 was and didn't want to tarnish the legacy like so many sequels do, etc?
Seems like Frank had a phase of that ("beautiful corpse") but also at the same time was demythologizing his own legacy in real time and loving it.
Also, Kim works at her pace (slower than Frank), and produces a certain number of songs (fewer than Frank) that hit on different levels (good songs bad songs) and Frank works at his pace (faster than Kim) and produces a certain number of songs (more than Kim) that hit on different levels (good songs bad songs).
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Troubles A Foot
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1000 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2024 : 08:16:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Brank_Flack
Nobody Loves You More is a pleasant listen, but it veers a bit too close to well-produced-indie-music-by-the-numbers. I'll take Primrose, Jane, Mercy Me, Motoroller, Kings of the Prairie over most of NLYM, whereas The Night the Zombies Came came together in weeks or months as opposed to a decade.
I just feel the total opposite. Nobody Loves You More isn't "pleasant" to me, it has multiple songs that moved me to tears. Nothing Frank has done has come close to that in a long time (maybe the bridge for Daniel Boone, and of course I love the reject songs from Eyrie. I also love the new solo song "The Liar" which is very moving.) I don't hear anything by the numbers in Kim's new album, each song is totally different, with different production styles and different songwriting techniques.
But also the production is so much better than the Pixies album it is insane. It's just so much more enjoyable to listen to because I don't get distracted by how bad the vocals or drums sound. And none of the songs sound like Kim is forcing anything. All of the new Pixies sounds like Frank is forcing solo songs into a Pixies shape and I know I've said this 1,000 times here, but I just can't get over how awkward that can be. They are a solid band but for some of these songs it doesn't feel like they are the right people.
I genuinely think the Pixies maybe should have "died" and he should have just been a solo artist. I think we'd all see more freedom from him in the songwriting, who he chooses to play on his albums, etc. We'd have more range of stuff like Honeycomb to Teenager of the Year to Bluefinger, etc. I find the Pixies thing kind of restraining for him, but the financial incentives are too great so he stays with it. I think he is indeed "caught in a dream" that he can't get out of. Part of why seeing him play solo was so incredibly refreshing last week.
Anyway this is all to say that Kim's new album just feels so real and inspired to me and the Pixies new album feels awkward to me. |
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Skatealex1
* Dog in the Sand *
1688 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2024 : 08:31:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Troubles A Foot
But also the production is so much better than the Pixies album it is insane. It's just so much more enjoyable to listen to because I don't get distracted by how bad the vocals or drums sound. And none of the songs sound like Kim is forcing anything. All of the new Pixies sounds like Frank is forcing solo songs into a Pixies shape and I know I've said this 1,000 times here, but I just can't get over how awkward that can be. They are a solid band but for some of these songs it doesn't feel like they are the right people.
I genuinely think the Pixies maybe should have "died" and he should have just been a solo artist. I think we'd all see more freedom from him in the songwriting, who he chooses to play on his albums, etc. We'd have more range of stuff like Honeycomb to Teenager of the Year to Bluefinger, etc. I find the Pixies thing kind of restraining for him, but the financial incentives are too great so he stays with it. I think he is indeed "caught in a dream" that he can't get out of. Part of why seeing him play solo was so incredibly refreshing last week.
I agree with pretty much of all of this. I don't hate on someone for cashing in but Frank doesn't even hide that Pixies is in big part a cash cow. I appreciate that hea evolved it to not try to recreate the old Pixies sound but it still seems almost a little off in some ways. Like letting Tom Dalgety seemingly make a lot of big choices like tracklists apparently and coming from a more classic rock than indie rock background. (Since when are Pixies a classic rock influenced band)
The Kim Deal production is so much more enjoyable and natural sounding to me than maybe any Pixies 2.0 release I can think of.
I'd add the last Breeders album on this list too. Even if it maybe sticks to Kim's guns a bit- it still just sounds more natural sounding and not overproduced indie rock where as maybe every Pixies 2.0 album has weird production choices that take away from it. |
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Bedbug
> Teenager of the Year <
3197 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2024 : 08:35:51
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I don’t know if anything 1.0 has moved me to tears, other than tears of “this is amazing”
Maybe Motorway if I step into it
Nothing Kim has done gets me emotionally either, but always enjoy the listen |
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Brank_Flack
* Dog in the Sand *
Canada
1039 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2024 : 08:44:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Troubles A Foot
quote:
Originally posted by Brank_Flack
Nobody Loves You More is a pleasant listen, but it veers a bit too close to well-produced-indie-music-by-the-numbers. I'll take Primrose, Jane, Mercy Me, Motoroller, Kings of the Prairie over most of NLYM, whereas The Night the Zombies Came came together in weeks or months as opposed to a decade.
I just feel the total opposite. Nobody Loves You More isn't "pleasant" to me, it has multiple songs that moved me to tears. Nothing Frank has done has come close to that in a long time (maybe the bridge for Daniel Boone, and of course I love the reject songs from Eyrie. I also love the new solo song "The Liar" which is very moving.) I don't hear anything by the numbers in Kim's new album, each song is totally different, with different production styles and different songwriting techniques.
But also the production is so much better than the Pixies album it is insane. It's just so much more enjoyable to listen to because I don't get distracted by how bad the vocals or drums sound. And none of the songs sound like Kim is forcing anything. All of the new Pixies sounds like Frank is forcing solo songs into a Pixies shape and I know I've said this 1,000 times here, but I just can't get over how awkward that can be. They are a solid band but for some of these songs it doesn't feel like they are the right people.
I genuinely think the Pixies maybe should have "died" and he should have just been a solo artist. I think we'd all see more freedom from him in the songwriting, who he chooses to play on his albums, etc. We'd have more range of stuff like Honeycomb to Teenager of the Year to Bluefinger, etc. I find the Pixies thing kind of restraining for him, but the financial incentives are too great so he stays with it. I think he is indeed "caught in a dream" that he can't get out of. Part of why seeing him play solo was so incredibly refreshing last week.
Anyway this is all to say that Kim's new album just feels so real and inspired to me and the Pixies new album feels awkward to me.
Yeah, it's inarguable that the production (and arrangements) on Kim's album is better, but I don't have the same emotional connection to the songs that you do.
I also agree that there is something awkward to Pixies 2.0 baked into the core - but I also think that despite some duds, the tension between Frank's mature songwriting style and the band creates some interesting, and again, idiosyncratic results that I am overall happy with. You mentioned in the other thread something along the lines that that with Kim everything clicks, whereas with Pixies 2.0 there's an awkwardness of goth wearing cowboy boots. I think that's a good description, but I come down on the other side of finding the latter oddly compelling. For all the diversity on NLYM, most of the songs sound like tasteful, competent indie/alt songs that I've heard before (even the more experimental tracks), whereas Pixies takes on British murder ballads, Phil Spector, and late-era Leonard Cohen is more of a left-turn for me.
Without calling for a disbanding of the Pixies, I do agree that it would be nice if Charles could record with a greater diversity of musicians to reflect his different interests. |
Edited by - Brank_Flack on 12/13/2024 08:44:31 |
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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Netherlands
6245 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2024 : 10:03:19
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What about this one: if Frank releases a record I'm all over it, from the get go. Even the bad ones.
I know Kim's new record is better, at least the singles were, but I only listened to it two times
I know Kim is cooler and better in being an indie goddes. I love her. But Frank is not interested in making those records.
I don't think he can, to be honest.
But I'm all up for it. For anything. Make a hip hop record, I don't care. Even the duds. Bring 'em on.
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BF: Mag ik Engels spreken? |
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Mad Lucas
- FB Fan -
Australia
166 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2024 : 10:38:31
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The most interesting thing about the Kim album is the change in lyrical style, dealing with mortality, existence etc from the perspective of someone ageing. It is striking to hear after so much of her prior work is clouded in abstraction lyrically (not a bad thing). Couple that with the fact she still has all her musical powers, unlike other artists who make this shift post age-60, and it makes a compelling package.
Nonetheless, I can't get away from the fact that she's returning to many of the same wells. I wonder during recording how many takes she re-records because she played the part too correctly, or gave the impression she was trying too hard. Like at some point, when you're getting a horn section on your album, you've shown your hand that you're doing your best. You don't need to do the performative sloppiness thing. But that's what I'm getting at with her prioritising aesthetic or attitude. I think that approach really paid off on Title TK, but there are diminishing returns. |
Edited by - Mad Lucas on 12/13/2024 10:39:30 |
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The Night The Zombies Came
