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Bedbug
> Teenager of the Year <
2961 Posts |
 Posted - 06/18/2022 : 13:34:39
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Trouble, I only mentioned Rocket USA to you because you asked if there were others you hadn't heard and that one came to mind as a candidate.
I think NSE is one of the weirdest things our man has done, and I love it, but I love it kind of like the way I love Eraserhead: I'm not going to put it on every day because it's just too weird. But like Eraserhead, NSE can be used to freak out your friends and loved ones.
There are at least 2-3 songs on NSE that you wish were on a 2.0 album. |
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johnnyribcage
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2022 : 13:44:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Bedbug
Trouble, I only mentioned Rocket USA to you because you asked if there were others you hadn't heard and that one came to mind as a candidate.
I think NSE is one of the weirdest things our man has done, and I love it, but I love it kind of like the way I love Eraserhead: I'm not going to put it on every day because it's just too weird. But like Eraserhead, NSE can be used to freak out your friends and loved ones.
There are at least 2-3 songs on NSE that you wish were on a 2.0 album.
There’s a few on there I could see as 2.0 songs. But the production has a lighter touch on NSE. There’s just something about the sound of the 2.0 albums that’s too… I don’t know, beefy or something. There’s nothing nimble about them. And 1.0 pixies always had a really nimble sound I guess is how I would describe it. Even on Bossanova. The drums don’t sound very natural, for one. Everything’s cranked up. Although BTE has a little less of that.
I had a bad reaction to your public hobby writings. |
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Brank_Flack
= Cult of Ray =
Canada
910 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2022 : 13:54:49
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| I'm an NSE fan, but agree that it's the weakest of the Black Francis revival period (I remember at the time trying to make the case that the post-Christmass output was another 'golden age' of Charles' songwriting, and stand by it) - perhaps in large part for engineering/mixing. It's almost like a cardboard box is blocking the mic. I'd love to see it given a remix/master (does anyone know if that new 07-12 boxset is remastered? I never looked into it since I have all the CDs from their first run). I remember at the time that I would have a friend from high school drive me to HMV every few days to see if it was in stock (I grew up in the suburban wasteland), but it didn't end up on shelves for months here in Canada, and even then it was only one or two per store as a specialty item. I found that pretty dispiriting! |
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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Netherlands
6009 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2022 : 14:19:14
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quote:
Originally posted by johnnyribcage
quote:
Originally posted by billgoodman
Come on, The Golem came before Non Stop Erotik
And I also think of it as a solo career stopper
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BF: Mag ik Engels spreken?
Okay I must be mistaken. But I still really dig it.
I had a bad reaction to your public hobby writings.
Which one? The Golem is a work of art
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BF: Mag ik Engels spreken? |
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johnnyribcage
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2022 : 14:24:22
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quote:
Originally posted by billgoodman
quote:
Originally posted by johnnyribcage
quote:
Originally posted by billgoodman
Come on, The Golem came before Non Stop Erotik
And I also think of it as a solo career stopper
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BF: Mag ik Engels spreken?
Okay I must be mistaken. But I still really dig it.
I had a bad reaction to your public hobby writings.
Which one? The Golem is a work of art
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BF: Mag ik Engels spreken?
Golem. NSE is pretty weak, relatively. But I don’t hate it or anything. Golem is amazing.
I had a bad reaction to your public hobby writings. |
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Jason
* Dog in the Sand *
1446 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2022 : 16:17:30
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NSE is my favorite of the Black Francis solos. It sounds like some eccentric lost singer-songwriter album from 1975, though it makes such crazy leaps in style throughout that it doesn't sound like it belongs to any year. There's a song that sounds like a Curt Boettcher project from 1968 ("Rabbits"), along with punk, piano ballads, groove rock, and even a "hit" ("Dead Man's Curve").
I hear "Lake of Sin" as a song about a religious soul tempted by the carnal call and then it's bookended by "Cinema Star", which I think is about a porn star's decline, though that seems too simple of a reading and there are some mystifying passages so I don't know for sure. What's in between zig-zags all over the place, as it should. This is rock music. It doesn't have to make sense. I'd even say that it's better if it doesn't.
The two piano ballads toward the end are obvious sexual celebrations, but why is there a cover of The Flying Burrito Brothers here? I don't know. Maybe it's nod to the tragedy of Gram Parsons, who died way too young in pursuit of the indulgent rock 'n' roll lifestyle. Whatever the case, I'm glad that it's here. (The Burritos were the BEST country-rock band of the 60s, by the way; I like that Frank seems to be a fan.)
The production is fine with me. It's borderline demo-quality, but I think that was the vision. The keyboard parts sound like placeholders for more grandiose additions that never happened, but I think that was the vision, too. They're just laying down songs. Perfection isn't essential. This isn't that kind of record. It's an arty snapshot of what was on the artist's mind at the time. Sex, tragedy, sex, rock 'n' roll, and sex.
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Edited by - Jason on 06/18/2022 16:21:54 |
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hammerhands
* Dog in the Sand *
Canada
1592 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2022 : 16:35:36
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I remember Frank saying how he admired Reid Paley's songwriting and his 500 word vocabulary,
and has said a few times, like in the podcast, that he cringes when he is too clever.
I think he used the phrase "These are Lyrics!"
I like too clever and Frank is awfully good at it.
I think you need a balance, more free-flowing and less edited. |
Edited by - hammerhands on 06/18/2022 16:36:35 |
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hammerhands
* Dog in the Sand *
Canada
1592 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2022 : 16:39:02
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| Corinna is so good. |
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Ziggy
* Dog in the Sand *
United Kingdom
2411 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2022 : 00:54:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Jason
NSE is my favorite of the Black Francis solos. It sounds like some eccentric lost singer-songwriter album from 1975, though it makes such crazy leaps in style throughout that it doesn't sound like it belongs to any year. There's a song that sounds like a Curt Boettcher project from 1968 ("Rabbits"), along with punk, piano ballads, groove rock, and even a "hit" ("Dead Man's Curve").
I hear "Lake of Sin" as a song about a religious soul tempted by the carnal call and then it's bookended by "Cinema Star", which I think is about a porn star's decline, though that seems too simple of a reading and there are some mystifying passages so I don't know for sure. What's in between zig-zags all over the place, as it should. This is rock music. It doesn't have to make sense. I'd even say that it's better if it doesn't.
The two piano ballads toward the end are obvious sexual celebrations, but why is there a cover of The Flying Burrito Brothers here? I don't know. Maybe it's nod to the tragedy of Gram Parsons, who died way too young in pursuit of the indulgent rock 'n' roll lifestyle. Whatever the case, I'm glad that it's here. (The Burritos were the BEST country-rock band of the 60s, by the way; I like that Frank seems to be a fan.)
The production is fine with me. It's borderline demo-quality, but I think that was the vision. The keyboard parts sound like placeholders for more grandiose additions that never happened, but I think that was the vision, too. They're just laying down songs. Perfection isn't essential. This isn't that kind of record. It's an arty snapshot of what was on the artist's mind at the time. Sex, tragedy, sex, rock 'n' roll, and sex.
It's a funny one. The weird muddy mix spoils the record. But 'Cinema Star' is one of my favourite BF solo songs (plus that wonderful keyboard outro).
Odd to think most of the songs have never been played live. 'Corrina' and 'Lake of Sin' are great! 'Corrina' did get its only live outing to date when BF joined a local band for a couple of songs - Spanish for Hitchhiking I think?
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Edited by - Ziggy on 06/19/2022 00:55:39 |
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Stevio10
* Dog in the Sand *
United Kingdom
1071 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2022 : 04:16:24
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| From NSE I really like O My Tidy Sum and The Wild Son. It's a strange album, though when you add in the bonus tracks Rocket USA, The Grindsman and Taint No Use it instantly becomes stronger. Was a great if short lived period those Black Francis albums. Love the Love and Rockets cover of All in my Mind. |
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Brank_Flack
= Cult of Ray =
Canada
910 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2022 : 04:42:31
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| O My Tidy Sum (love the chord progression, vocal delivery and production) and Six Legged Man (an absolute beast - up there with Threshold for best rock/punk song of that era) are my two favourites. Also love the groove of Wild Son and the matching keyboard/guitar riff of Cinema Star. I listened to it on Apple Music last night and was surprised to find a bonus track I was unfamiliar with - Lost Mi Love. It's a feral cover of (I believe) a reggae song that almost has a hip hop cadence to it - a nice find! |
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johnnyribcage
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2022 : 15:22:34
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I’ll pop this here since it’s a hot topic and more likely to be seen: Happy Father’s Day to all my fellow forum diehards and Charles. It’s a great thing being a dad. Indescribable, quite Frankly Black.
I had a bad reaction to your public hobby writings. |
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Troubles A Foot
= Cult of Ray =
USA
815 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2022 : 16:20:00
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Me and my fiance have been talking about me becoming a dad some day soon. Scary/exciting stuff. Had lunch with my parents today.
So ok, in the car I listened to Nonstoperotik yet again. It actually sounds well-mixed in the car. On headphones I noticed it sounded really muddy. I wonder why that is. A lot of the album does work, Corrina, etc. My fiance loved Tidy Sum. But Tidy Sum and then Rabbits (and then a cover) right at the top of the album is such bizarre track ordering. Just like death of energy and then a fairly ok cover song...Then in the second half of the album the two melodramatic sex ballads one after the other. Just a lumpy, sweaty, strange album.
Listened to the live album again though and god damn. |
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Jason
* Dog in the Sand *
1446 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2022 : 23:15:01
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Yes, the songs themselves on NSE are not all that strange, at least by Frank's standards. It's the sequencing. It's the oddness of "Six Legged Man" and "When I Go Down On You" being on the same album. Looking at the credits in the booklet, I see that it was recorded in three different studios in New York, Los Angeles, and London, which leads me to speculate that there was no plan for what this record should be. Frank didn't care if what was recorded in LA sounded like what was recorded in London. They did what felt right at the time and then would somehow make it work in the end. And I think they did.
When I get to NSE in my silly Frank Black essay series (in about eight years, at the pace that I write), I can see myself building my hook on it as Frank's "rock star" album. It's not a rock star album in the Oasis "gonna conquer the world" sense. It's a rock star album in that it's indulgent. It was recorded while traveling the world and so the album itself is naturally "all over the place", as well, and that's fine. That's the rock star's life. I have no idea if this was recorded during a Pixies tour, scheduling studio sessions at certain stops, but it would be cool if it was. |
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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Netherlands
6009 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2022 : 10:28:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Jason
Yes, the songs themselves on NSE are not all that strange, at least by Frank's standards. It's the sequencing. It's the oddness of "Six Legged Man" and "When I Go Down On You" being on the same album. Looking at the credits in the booklet, I see that it was recorded in three different studios in New York, Los Angeles, and London, which leads me to speculate that there was no plan for what this record should be. Frank didn't care if what was recorded in LA sounded like what was recorded in London. They did what felt right at the time and then would somehow make it work in the end. And I think they did.
When I get to NSE in my silly Frank Black essay series (in about eight years, at the pace that I write), I can see myself building my hook on it as Frank's "rock star" album. It's not a rock star album in the Oasis "gonna conquer the world" sense. It's a rock star album in that it's indulgent. It was recorded while traveling the world and so the album itself is naturally "all over the place", as well, and that's fine. That's the rock star's life. I have no idea if this was recorded during a Pixies tour, scheduling studio sessions at certain stops, but it would be cool if it was.
Nice, where can I find your essays? In the general chat?
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BF: Mag ik Engels spreken? |
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Jason
* Dog in the Sand *
1446 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2022 : 00:44:17
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| Yes, there's a thread for them in General Frank Black Chat |
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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Netherlands
6009 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2022 : 01:55:37
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Thanks!
Back to Doggerel; after the podcast I have been scrolling to the snippets and the diary of Tom at least 5 times.
But there's also the trailer (the podcast with pictures!) and you can hear different snippets during the talking.
You need to listen closely, but they sound quite nice.
How on earth are we capable of waiting three months on this?
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BF: Mag ik Engels spreken? |
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Sprite
* Dog in the Sand *
1225 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2022 : 06:19:03
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Have you got a kitchen that needs painting, or some other big DIY job?
I've avoided the podcast so far and having listened to There's a Moon On once a day for past 10 days straight I am now starting to tentatively believe the hype about this record... |
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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Netherlands
6009 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2022 : 08:15:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Sprite
Have you got a kitchen that needs painting, or some other big DIY job?
I've avoided the podcast so far and having listened to There's a Moon On once a day for past 10 days straight I am now starting to tentatively believe the hype about this record...
I travel two hours to my job and two hours back
And I have a lot of time while waiting on my kids
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BF: Mag ik Engels spreken? |
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Sprite
* Dog in the Sand *
1225 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2022 : 14:19:58
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| OK fair enough, then it's going to be a tough 3 months. |
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Troubles A Foot
= Cult of Ray =
USA
815 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2022 : 20:08:19
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quote:
Originally posted by billgoodman
I travel two hours to my job and two hours back
And I have a lot of time while waiting on my kids
You wouldn't be a They Might Be Giants fan, would you? Do I have the time-killing podcast for you... |
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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Netherlands
6009 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2022 : 22:40:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Troubles A Foot
quote:
Originally posted by billgoodman
I travel two hours to my job and two hours back
And I have a lot of time while waiting on my kids
You wouldn't be a They Might Be Giants fan, would you? Do I have the time-killing podcast for you...
I have that one album
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BF: Mag ik Engels spreken? |
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Troubles A Foot
= Cult of Ray =
USA
815 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2022 : 17:18:28
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| Hanging out with two friends, we talked about when bands you like put out a song with really bad or goofy lyrics. I played them There's A Moon On and we all had a good laugh. On the way home though I felt a lot of dread. What if this album is really bad?? I dislike Moon and the haunted house thing from the podcast makes me cringe. I'm just worried. |
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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Netherlands
6009 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2022 : 22:50:59
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COME ON!
That last scream is all that matters to me
The song doesn't rock, but it does swing
It has a groove
The lyrics are Reid Paley-lyrics as someone here pointed out.
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BF: Mag ik Engels spreken? |
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pot
> Teenager of the Year <
Iceland
3909 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2022 : 05:14:29
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Whenever a band with a large back catalogue is so enthusiastic about their new album - that usually triggers alarm bells for me
"A return to form" they said - which it rarely ever turns out to be in my experience
Hope it's at least worthy of calling itself BTE2? |
Edited by - pot on 07/07/2022 05:14:53 |
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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Netherlands
6009 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2022 : 09:29:34
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Paz calling it the best thing she has ever done is a red flag
No it's not all board the HYPE TRAIN
Doolittle Senior
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BF: Mag ik Engels spreken? |
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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Netherlands
6009 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2022 : 09:59:51
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In the two years since you recorded Beneath The Eyrie, can you pinpoint the main creative shift within the band and how did it shape Doggerel?
To be honest, no one knew what the hell was happening with the pandemic - whether we'd all see each other again, whether the world would end... So it wasn't really until a month before we scheduled to start recording that Charles [Frank Black/Black Francis] started writing songs and then put about 40 demos together. Then our producer Tom [Dalgety], whose third record it is working with Pixies, and mine - listened to them and helped choose the fourteen that'd make the album. It was a very different approach, as we usually have some demos to kickstart the recording sessions and write in the studio together. It'd be way more loose.
For Doggerel it was definitely more tailored. Tom chose his 'batch of cookies', some of which I wouldn't have chosen, but quickly we all saw what he envisaged for the record which helped us guide us through the process. At this point, Tom has an incredibly good idea of what we're like as musicians. He knows how to communicate with us individually based on our abilities, and pulls the best out of us. That approach was perfect for this record, but it's taken time to get to this level together.
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BF: Mag ik Engels spreken? |
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Bedbug
> Teenager of the Year <
2961 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2022 : 10:37:57
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| For some reason I keep thinking of David Saint Hubbins telling Marty Dibergi about how Janine listens to his demos and let’s him know what’s good or bad or shite. |
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Troubles A Foot
= Cult of Ray =
USA
815 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2022 : 11:48:37
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Why do they even let Tom pick the songs?? Why HIM? What makes him so special? Why can't the band do that, or even just Charles? I'm convinced Tom has no idea what makes the Pixies interesting. Honestly, after that last podcast episode I'm firmly in the anti-Tom camp. He's made himself the 5th Pixie, or worse, the leader of the band, and he has very mediocre musical tastes, and leans incredibly formulaic in every decision. Get him away from Pixies albums!
I know that may sound alarmist. But it's really strange to me how much control he has over the band. I would never let anybody else pick my tracklist on my album. That stuff is sacred to me. A hugely important part of my creative outlet. Not saying I wouldn't ask for advice or opinions from others, but at the end of the day it's my decision when my name is on my album.
It seems to me Tom wants to make VERY accessible, very straight and cohesive albums from the songs he gets.
Pixies are not cohesive! The wildness of their albums is part of the fun! You need weird shit that maybe should be b-sides, you need experiments, you need the album to veer off a cliff or zig and zag sharply. BTE, these are good songs, but as a record it's just like everything is exactly what and where you would expect. |
Edited by - Troubles A Foot on 07/07/2022 11:53:59 |
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Bedbug
> Teenager of the Year <
2961 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2022 : 13:07:36
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| I think that part of the answer is the only person who has never been impressed with the Pixies is Charles, and he cares less than ever now. |
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Jason
* Dog in the Sand *
1446 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2022 : 09:21:48
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While Frank is a brilliant songwriter, I've picked up over the years that he doesn't tend to have grand album visions. It's just not how he thinks. At least not all of the time. That was true from the beginning when you think about it. The tracks on "Come On Pilgrim" were selected by 4AD from that early cassette.
Then there's Frank's answer to a question back when he used to post here. September 2003 (http://forum.frankblack.net/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3015&whichpage=5). Someone asked him to name his favorite Catholics record.
Frank's response has always stuck with me:
Hmmm...more proud of songs than records....records are...an artificial format.
You can't hold him to that 100%, as he played around with concept albums in his solo Black Francis period, but I think that response is a key to understanding a lot of what he does.
He writes the songs. If a trusted producer or manager or record label person has an idea of what to do with those songs, he listens and is apt to go with it. I find that very interesting. |
Edited by - Jason on 07/11/2022 09:25:40 |
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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Netherlands
6009 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2022 : 00:29:30
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Exactly
Take the FB and the C's debut: sequenced alphabetically.
That's a lazy approach. It kinda works there.
But on the boxset it's very irritating.
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BF: Mag ik Engels spreken? |
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pot
> Teenager of the Year <
Iceland
3909 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2022 : 08:55:09
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| Seems like it's always around September, every three years we get a Dalgety album. I wonder if they signed a contract to that effect and that's why FBF had a mad rush to write a bunch of songs around Xmas time - "better get some songs down before we have to go back in to the studio again"? |
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Bedbug
> Teenager of the Year <
2961 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2022 : 10:10:10
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If The Cult of Ray never existed, and then Doggerel came out in 2022 and it was The Cult of Ray, would you say, "This is the best Pixies album since Trompe Le Monde!" ?
I would. |
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Troubles A Foot
= Cult of Ray =
USA
815 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2022 : 11:05:11
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It's an interesting thought experiment. I love Cult of Ray so I'd probably love it again.
I did the same thing with Beneath the Eyrie. I asked myself would I be so hard on it if this was the new Frank Black and the Catholics album? Not sure. |
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Doggerel
