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Troubles A Foot
= Cult of Ray =

USA
818 Posts

Posted - 10/08/2022 :  20:02:18  Show Profile  Visit Troubles A Foot's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by johnnyribcage

Iím fairly certain the title of the album pretty much explains the simple lyrics. One of the 2 definitions of the word is ďverse which has a monotonous rhythm, easy rhyme, and cheap or trivial meaning.Ē So in that sense, itís basically a concept album.




I find "the lyrics will be bad this time" to be a weird concept...I think simple lyrics could be beautiful and complex in their own way, but I'm not really getting much out of the words on much of this album.
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johnnyribcage
* Dog in the Sand *

USA
1291 Posts

Posted - 10/09/2022 :  01:32:36  Show Profile  Visit johnnyribcage's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I feel like Iím being misinterpreted or weíre talking past each other on every post, so Iím gonna wrap up my commentary on the lyric subject.


I had a bad reaction to your public hobby writings.

Edited by - johnnyribcage on 10/09/2022 01:34:22
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Bedbug
> Teenager of the Year <

2966 Posts

Posted - 10/09/2022 :  01:54:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think the 1.0 lyrics and the 2.0 lyrics have both been minimalist and absurd and surreal and etc., all the stuff everybody says about them. I don't see a big difference between the two eras of Pixies lyrics, maybe it's more of a feel than something I can put my finger on. As several have pointed out, there are tons of super simple even ridiculous 1.0 lyrics that everybody still loves (River Euphrates is the example I'll use this time, but there's actually an incredibly "deep" meaning to that song), though there are exceptions of course.

My point on this topic is that I don't think the writing / lyrics of 2.0 is different enough from 1.0 to warrant the criticisms, and I think the lyrics will grow on people over time. For example, I remember listening to Planet of Sound the day it came out, and I thought the lyrics were silly, but now I don't even think about it (it's not all I think about now).

Finally, (and apologies in advance for another digression in this direction, I'll try to keep them to a minimum on this board and keep them elsewhere), Frank's simple and silly lyrics are often anything but. A couple examples from Doggerel would be: 1) Frank's "I said hey, I said woah, I said hey..." certainly sounds silly, but "hey / woah / hey" are also the letters of the Hebrew Tetragrammaton, the consonants that make the name Jehovah. 2) "7-11 is pretty great" sounds silly too, but Genesis 7:11 in the Hebrew Bible is the passage that refers to the vault of heaven (often translated gates, or well, or windows) being opened, where an immeasurable amount of water (the meaning of titrate) floods the world. 7-11 is indeed pretty great. There are tons more examples throughout 1.0 and 2.0 and everything in between.

So I think I hear both sides of the discussion, but I think opinions will shift over time as the lyrics are chewed in repeated listens.
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Jason
* Dog in the Sand *

1446 Posts

Posted - 10/09/2022 :  02:19:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I haven't yet thought about the lyrics. I used to get really into lyrics in music, but now I enjoy when they're mysterious most of the time. I like when they're just texture and not something that I try to make sense of, unless the song seriously calls to me to get to know the words. The songs on "Doggerel" aren't yet calling me to know the words. It helps that the lyric sheet design is a little annoying so I don't look at it.

One part that jumps out at me is in the title track.

"On the road to nowhere/ On the road to somewhere/ Is all the same to me".

That's good. I like Frank's hard travelin' man songs. Like "Fast Man" or "End of Miles".

You could also read into that line a metaphor for making and listening to music.

Edited by - Jason on 10/09/2022 02:21:13
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johnnyribcage
* Dog in the Sand *

USA
1291 Posts

Posted - 10/09/2022 :  04:52:52  Show Profile  Visit johnnyribcage's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bedbug

Öthere are tons of super simple even ridiculous 1.0 lyrics that everybody still loves (River Euphrates is the example I'll use this time, but there's actually an incredibly "deep" meaning to that song), though there are exceptions of courseÖ.

My point on this topic is that I don't think the writing / lyrics of 2.0 is different enough from 1.0 to warrant the criticismsÖ

Finally, (and apologies in advance for another digression in this direction, I'll try to keep them to a minimum on this board and keep them elsewhere), Frank's simple and silly lyrics are often anything but. A couple examples from Doggerel would be: 1) Frank's "I said hey, I said woah, I said hey..." certainly sounds silly, but "hey / woah / hey" are also the letters of the Hebrew Tetragrammaton, the consonants that make the name Jehovah. 2) "7-11 is pretty great" sounds silly too, but Genesis 7:11 in the Hebrew Bible is the passage that refers to the vault of heaven (often translated gates, or well, or windows) being opened, where an immeasurable amount of water (the meaning of titrate) floods the world. 7-11 is indeed pretty great. There are tons more examples throughout 1.0 and 2.0 and everything in between.



Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back inÖ

Seriously though, this was interesting, and I think youíre saying a lot of what I was trying to say but not being clear enough. It sounds simple but might not be if you dig in, or itís a minimal, impressionistic handful of words that are underpinned loosely by something like the Uriah / Bathsheba story. And and because Doggerel describes simple verse, it can belie the deeper thoughts under those simple lyrics. Itís not so simple, I canít think of the right term to describe it - tongue in cheek? Thatís what I was trying to imply.

Thereís no denying the last verse of Moon is pretty unambiguously a basic kind of old school verse of the type you find in tons of old 40s and 50s R&B, Jump Blues, etc. And again - ainít a goddamn thing wrong with that in my book. I donít have any criticism of the lyrics.

So, letís get into Vault. Fascinating insight bedbug. I didn't make the connection since I donít know the Bible very well at all. A lot of his lyrics have double and even triple references / interpretations, as most great poets and lyricists do, and sometimes itís just so open ended it could be anything. Thatís sort of what I was implying with the idea Doggerel, the title, can both describe the - to me - less complex (on the surface) nature of the lyrics, and in this case much less surface complexity than the last 3 albums, but also be a sort of joke too. Iím trying to think of a parallel. Maybe Thick as a Brick? I donít know.

I had interpreted Vault to be less biblical and more of a reference to addiction. I guess I took it more literally. And ďtitrateĒ was the cornerstone of my interpretation, so if it were to mean ďflood,Ē my interpretation is out the window. I donít think it means flood. I canít find that definition for it anywhere. If it has an older meaning for flood, then we just have another example of the subtle layering that belies a Celtic knot of potential interpretations under it. I didnít have a clue what titrate meant, but I looked it up and when mentioning it to my wife she knew what it was right away.

She works in a NICU and often has to do lab work, and she said theyíre always titrating. Itís a chemistry procedure. You can look up examples, and Iím no chemist, but I think in laymenís terms itís a process to determine how much of a chemical is in one solution by adding a solution of another chemical to it. Think the classic movie chemist / mad scientist pouring something into a flask with something else in it until it changes color. So given that, I was thinking of the vault of heaven as maybe being literally the 7-11 store for some poor dude in severe depths of alcoholism and maybe other chemicals.

So heís like, hey itís great, they got hot dogs and shit, and also alcohol, itís like the vault of heaven. I picture him there trying to titrate, i.e. literally trying to ascertain how messed up he is on one thing, considering adding some more chemicals, wondering if he can handle it, or to ďtry and get [himself] straightĒ with a couple dogs and a slurpie instead of more beer. But he ended up buying ďanother caseĒ of beer instead of making the right choice, because thatís what addicts do, and ended up in dire straits, outer space, and flat on his face.

So maybe Iím in outer space myself, but this could be one of the things that operates on multiple levels, biblical references and literal story telling about a guy in a 7-11 having a rough go of it. And maybe other things too. Simple story, simple lyrics, more complex for anyone that cares enough to think about it. But thinking about it isnít necessary.

So thatís the gist of what I was saying about the title, and I was saying it as kind of a counter to the ďthese lyrics arenít very imaginative or creativeĒ criticisms. Itís like yeah, they are simple and maybe even seemingly uninspired on the surface, and the title acknowledges that, but if you think about it itís more of a magic trick, a poetic illusion. Iím over analyzing/ overthinking it probably, although Deep Thoughts about FBF is our bread and butter around here. Itís what keeps the lights on


I had a bad reaction to your public hobby writings.

Edited by - johnnyribcage on 10/09/2022 05:24:19
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Troubles A Foot
= Cult of Ray =

USA
818 Posts

Posted - 10/09/2022 :  05:43:43  Show Profile  Visit Troubles A Foot's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Honestly if I had to be specific, I think most of the lyrics on the album are fine, except for Moon and various parts of Nomatterday (I just think if we have Black Francis yelling at us, those lyrics should be a lot more venomous or scary or fascinating) and Haunted House and bits here and there. It's kind of the first time ever that I found myself disappointed in his lyrics, because I generally just love or at least like everything he does in that department.

It's not that I'm like "what the hell this song doesn't take 500 listens to figure out what the lyrics are about and there's no complex analogies or references to obscure religious texts!!!" Like I said, I really enjoy a lot of the more straight forward Catholics songs, break up songs, etc. Like I love Stupid Me, If It Takes All Night, you know. But my problem with this album is that the lyrics in a song like Moon is just stuff I've heard before. I at least want Frank or Pixies to give me something new, even if it is kind of deceptively simple or what have you. "Don't waste your time on me Don't waste my time on you", I don't know...it just doesn't put me anywhere. I love how visual his lyrics can be. Even Haunted House is surprisingly lacking in the 5 senses department (meaning for me, a great lyric incorporates the 5 senses.) It's just so...plain, without a lot of description or world building? Does that make sense?

And I see such a vast difference between Pixies 1.0 and 2.0 lyrics, that's too big a post to make right now as I'm on my way out the door. Perhaps tomorrow...but the general gist is 1.0 = terrifying/surrealism, 2.0 = not that.
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johnnyribcage
* Dog in the Sand *

USA
1291 Posts

Posted - 10/09/2022 :  06:07:47  Show Profile  Visit johnnyribcage's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I hear ya Trouble. I definitely see a major difference in the lyrics of 1.0 and 2.0. But there were a few hundred songs between those and a few tricks picked up along the way. I will say the ďterrifying surrealismĒ of 1.0 might be a little too broadly applied. That seems to be a lot of folkís perspective on 1.0, but it really applies more to ďprimal,Ē first version of the band, and was mostly abandoned by Bossanova. It was a core tenant of the lyrics from the first few releases, but he quickly moved away from the ďterrifyingĒ component. Itís there in places on Bossanova, but there isnít a ton of terror there. And thereís hardly any on Trompe, in my opinion.

The surrealism is there on Bossanova and Trompe, but itís morphed, and some of the topics are more rooted in reality or sci-fi vs nightmares. Alec Eiffel, Memphis, U-Mass, and more. The Motorway is terrifying in a sad way. This poor alien was just on vacation, just looking for some good times and a place to hang his hat for the night, crashed, and ended up dissected in an army crate. Incidentally probably my favorite track on that one. Sorry to digress from the main topic but itís tangential to the lyric discussion.

Might be a good topic for a new thread - 1.0 vs 2.0 Lyrics. Trouble maybe you can start it with your analysis.

I had a bad reaction to your public hobby writings.

Edited by - johnnyribcage on 10/09/2022 07:34:14
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Brank_Flack
= Cult of Ray =

Canada
912 Posts

Posted - 10/09/2022 :  07:16:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bedbug


Finally, (and apologies in advance for another digression in this direction, I'll try to keep them to a minimum on this board and keep them elsewhere), Frank's simple and silly lyrics are often anything but. A couple examples from Doggerel would be: 1) Frank's "I said hey, I said woah, I said hey..." certainly sounds silly, but "hey / woah / hey" are also the letters of the Hebrew Tetragrammaton, the consonants that make the name Jehovah. 2) "7-11 is pretty great" sounds silly too, but Genesis 7:11 in the Hebrew Bible is the passage that refers to the vault of heaven (often translated gates, or well, or windows) being opened, where an immeasurable amount of water (the meaning of titrate) floods the world. 7-11 is indeed pretty great. There are tons more examples throughout 1.0 and 2.0 and everything in between.




Please don't withhold these digressions - they're fascinating interpretations! If Genesis 7:11 refers to the vault of heaven, then even if we take the more straightforward reading provided by johnnyribcage, it still sheds light on why he chose the term vault of heaven and makes *two* references to 7-11.

To join another conversation re: Haunted House, I'm also not entirely sold on the lyrics in the chorus, but I think there's more going on in the verses:

There's a house in English bond
Somebody planned to stay
Standing out near the button pond
It never went away

How many fish do make the shoal?
I cannot count today
What is your wish for these button holes?
I think I want to stay

Note: not sure what the button holes line refers to. Edit: duh, the "button ponds".

The repeated couplet at the end from the first verse is disarmingly poignant:

Somebody planned to stay
It never went away

Perhaps the chorus is shaded with a bit more pathos if we read it in light of the verses?

This verse might be telling as well:

North or south is the only way
I know I cannot tire
A haunted house that's built to stay
Is setting me on fire

If North is heaven and south is hell, then the permanence of the haunted house is a purgatory that's less of a trap than a refuge for those with an inkling of their impending mortality but who are attached to the New England country side and would prefer to dwell there indefinitely (like himself, hence the idea of it setting him on fire, the chorus's emphasis on his desire to go there, and the second verse's admission that he, like the ghosts, would like to stay).

It would then also connect to Doggerel's story of the New England villagers who attempted to leave their valley, but were always brought back. The chorus for Doggerel accepts and embraces this ("I'll never wander again/ gonna stay to the end/ with you"). Obviously there is something autobiographical going on here, as the story is related to a village that one of his ancestors built a house in - and here Charles is after all these years, approaching his 60s, living back in New England and drawn towards this house/village.

I should also note that the reading of Haunted House needs to be complicated, or made more multidimensional, by the fact that Charles mentions in an interview that he has in mind the idea of ghosts as permanent memories of people that mark a place. So there may be a literal haunted house he has in mind in New England that he did indeed visit, but I think there's an interesting thematic link to the impetus for "Doggerel", a house in New England "haunted" by the memory of his ancestor (which lives on via these songs).

Sorry - this was very long winded, and probably reflects that it was thought up on the spot, haha.


Edited by - Brank_Flack on 10/09/2022 16:53:04
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Troubles A Foot
= Cult of Ray =

USA
818 Posts

Posted - 10/09/2022 :  15:32:39  Show Profile  Visit Troubles A Foot's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Fair enough, Brank, it seems I did undersell the Haunted House lyrics a bit. I guess like I love haunted house stuff and I wanted something more...but don't wish to be an annoying demanding fan.
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johnnyribcage
* Dog in the Sand *

USA
1291 Posts

Posted - 10/09/2022 :  16:22:22  Show Profile  Visit johnnyribcage's Homepage  Reply with Quote
A little lit tonight as I usually am when I post here, although the last few have been morning relatively clear headed with coffee. Threw it back on when I got back to the house tonightÖ gotta say, this is it. This is what Iíve been waiting for. I love this set of songs and pretty much everything about it. Production, vibe, theme, songwriting Ö Iím there. Thatís all.


I had a bad reaction to your public hobby writings.

Edited by - johnnyribcage on 10/09/2022 16:24:53
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Sprite
* Dog in the Sand *

1228 Posts

Posted - 10/10/2022 :  15:58:35  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Am a bit late to the party as I had some family stuff going on but have been listening on repeat since the start of the weekend. Short version I am seriously impressedÖ.

I get all sorts of reference points and feelings from the different songs, many already expressed in some great posts above. And much more variety in the influences which are more front and centre than any Pixies record Iíve known. I pick out several of the mentioned 70s references already, Beatles/George Harrison, Neil Young, Fleetwood Mac. But also Kraftwerk in Pazís numbers on Thunder and Lightning. Arty Pixies are back in the room on Nomatterday and Get Simulated. I hear Achtung Baby on Doggerel and Jordan era Prefab Sprout on Whose more sorry now?.

I thought BTE was excellent. I donít like every single song but I like/love the vast majority. What is elevating this record above BTE is the sheer quality in the run of tunes all the way from Haunted House though to the end (+ Nomatterday). And as also mentioned above the kind of hesitant, slightly off/what-would-the-Pixies-do moments that crept in from time to time on the previous 2.0 albums have completely evaporated (except on Dregs which I will forgive as it is lovely to see Santiago get to do one of his songs). In an alternative timeline I reckon Frank could have shown this set of songs to Kim and she would never have left (not to take anything away from Pazís amazing contribution). Mrs Sprite (not a FB/Pixies obsessive like me) says itís the best new one by a mile.

The Pixies record it most reminds me of is Bossanova (Get Simulated for Is She Weird, Nomatterday for All over the World, Haunted House for Dig For Fire). On the opening bars of Doggerel when the drumsticks click I am transported right back to 1990 alternative night at McGonagles in Dublin where Debaser or Allison would fit in seamlessly with Loaded, Soon, Step on and How soon is now.

I used to have the Surfer Rosa (12/12) and Doolittle (13/12) album reviews by Graham Linehan from Hot Press on the bedroom wall as a teenager (long since lost sadly). But a line from one of them always stayed with me. It said that in every Pixies song there is a moment where a shiver goes down your spine. And it really resonated with me. And there have been moments when I got that shiver during Pixies 2.0 (Plaster of Paris, Bird of Prey, Ring the Bell, Hey Debussy to name a few). But I get it 7 of 8 times on this record. I canít get enough of Haunted House, Thunder & Lightning & Whose More Sorry Now & Doggerel in particular.

The last Pixies song I heard before the break-up was I Canít Forget from Iím your Fan. I loved this cover version which sounded cinematic, with the chugging beat and swirling organ, it could have been the start of a great new direction. I can easily imagine Doggerel being announced in early í93 as their 70s record, just as Bossanova was a 50s sci-fi and Trompe was a going to be a Ďmetalí record. And it is *absolutely* 100% a Pixies record, not a FB, BF or Catholics record. To my ears it fits in seamlessly with the 1.0 records.

I listen to this album and I desperately want them to go straight back in and record another bunch of these 40s songs. In fact, do two more albums and call it the Memphis trilogy. Iím done with hearing WIMM, Debaser, Monkey and Vamos for the umpteenth time. I donít need to hear a scream again. I donít care about surreal lyrics or strange words I have to look up in a dictionary. I donít care about the producers or bass players from the 80s Pixies. I want some more of this instantiation, with this producer, making songs as good as this. Even though at a fundamental level it never bothered me if they could not reach the heights of run 1.0, at a kind of superficial level it did. But in trying not to make a Pixies record they actually made the one that sounds most like the Pixies.

Honestly, I think theyíve done a record as good as the first run and am happy to die on that hill. For sure the best BF since Bluefinger. My only gripe is the just the 12 songs. Be brave and gives us 15 next time!
Hereís my album ranking

Doggerel
BTE
BTE Demos
Head Carrier
Indie Cindy


Edited by - Sprite on 10/13/2022 09:21:47
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Troubles A Foot
= Cult of Ray =

USA
818 Posts

Posted - 10/10/2022 :  16:23:06  Show Profile  Visit Troubles A Foot's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Wow. Hearing such a vastly different record over here. I feel like I disagree with almost every sentence of that! Glad it's working for some people though. Still listening over and over and trying to make up my mind about it.
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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<

Netherlands
6013 Posts

Posted - 10/10/2022 :  23:02:57  Show Profile  Click to see billgoodman's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Sprite

Am a bit late to the party as I had some family stuff going on but have been listening on repeat since the start of the weekend. Short version I am seriously impressedÖ.

I get all sorts of reference points and feelings from the different songs, many already expressed in some great posts above. And much more variety in the influences which are more front and centre than any Pixies record Iíve known. I pick out several of the mentioned 70s references already, Beatles/George Harrison, Neil Young, Fleetwood Mack. But also Kraftwerk in Pazís numbers on Thunder and Lightning. Arty Pixies are back in the room on Nomatterday and Get Simulated. I hear Achtung Baby on Doggerel and Jordan era Prefab Sprout on Whose more sorry now?.

I thought BTE was excellent. I donít like every single song but I like/love the vast majority. What is elevating this record above BTE is the sheer quality in the run of tunes all the way from Haunted House though to the end (+ Nomatterday). And as also mentioned above the kind of hesitant, slightly off/what-would-the-Pixies-do moments that crept in from time to time on the previous 2.0 albums have completely evaporated (except on Dregs which I will forgive as it is lovely to see Santiago get to do one of his songs). In an alternative timeline I reckon Frank could have shown this set of songs to Kim and she would never have left (not to take anything away from Pazís amazing contribution). Mrs Sprite (not a FB/Pixies obsessive like me) says itís the best new one by a mile.

The Pixies record it most reminds me of is Bossanova (Get Simulated for Is She Weird, Nomatterday for All over the World, Haunted House for Dig For Fire). On the opening bars of Doggerel when the drumsticks click I am transported right back to 1990 alternative night at McGonagles in Dublin where Debaser or Allison would fit in seamlessly with Loaded, Soon, Step on and How soon is now.

I used to have the Surfer Rosa (12/12) and Doolittle (13/12) album reviews by Graham Linehan from Hot Press on the bedroom wall as a teenager (long since lost sadly). But a line from one of them always stayed with me. It said that in every Pixies song there is a moment where a shiver goes down your spine. And it really resonated with me. And there have been moments when I got that shiver during Pixies 2.0 (Plaster of Paris, Bird of Prey, Ring the Bell, Hey Debussy to name a few). But I get it 7 of 8 times on this record. I canít get enough of Haunted House, Thunder & Lightning & Whose More Sorry Now & Doggerel in particular.

The last Pixies song I heard before the break-up was I Canít Forget from Iím your Fan. I loved this cover version which sounded cinematic, with the chugging beat and swirling organ, it could have been the start of a great new direction. I can easily imagine Doggerel being announced in early í93 as their 70s record, just as Bossanova was a 50s sci-fi and Trompe was a going to be a Ďmetalí record. And it is *absolutely* 100% a Pixies record, not a FB, BF or Catholics record. To my ears it fits in seamlessly with the 1.0 records.

I listen to this album and I desperately want them to go straight back in and record another bunch of these 40s songs. In fact, do two more albums and call it the Memphis trilogy. Iím done with hearing WIMM, Debaser, Monkey and Vamos for the umpteenth time. I donít need to hear a scream again. I donít care about surreal lyrics or strange words I have to look up in a dictionary. I donít care about the producers or bass players from the 80s Pixies. I want some more of this instantiation, with this producer, making songs as good as this. Even though at a fundamental level it never bothered me if they could not reach the heights of run 1.0, at a kind of superficial level it did. But in trying not to make a Pixies record they actually made the one that sounds most like the Pixies.

Honestly, I think theyíve done a record as good as the first run and am happy to die on that hill. For sure the best BF since Bluefinger. My only gripe is the just the 12 songs. Be brave and gives us 15 next time!
Hereís my album ranking

Doggerel
BTE
BTE Demos
Head Carrier
Indie Cindy





Love this post
Thanks!

Doggerel hasn't fully clicked yet
But your review makes me curious again
I might enjoy it on a whole other level
(but I'm not familiair with most of the 70's icons you named)

---------------------------
BF: Mag ik Engels spreken?
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Ziggy
* Dog in the Sand *

United Kingdom
2411 Posts

Posted - 10/11/2022 :  03:30:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Haven't been the biggest fan of 'Pagan Man' initially, but it's properly stuck in my head now.
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vilainde
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<

Niue
7438 Posts

Posted - 10/11/2022 :  04:09:50  Show Profile  Visit vilainde's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Kudos Sprite, I agree with a lot of what you wrote here. Haven't read the 23 pages of this thread but I do get the various influences, 60s oldies but a lot of 90s bands too. Doggerel reminds me of the Stone Roses.
Haven't heard the album enough times though. I still don't have the slightest idea of what Thunder & Lightning sounds like, I'm still not sure the song is actually on the album... hope it'll end up being a grower.

Denis
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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<

Netherlands
6013 Posts

Posted - 10/11/2022 :  04:48:48  Show Profile  Click to see billgoodman's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
Ok, you count the miles till Thunder & Lighning grows on you, Denis

---------------------------
BF: Mag ik Engels spreken?
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vilainde
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<

Niue
7438 Posts

Posted - 10/11/2022 :  04:55:49  Show Profile  Visit vilainde's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Nah tried it once more and it's still bland as hell...

Is it just me or does the end solo on Doggerel feel as great as the end of Motorway? I love this part so much.


Denis
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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<

Netherlands
6013 Posts

Posted - 10/11/2022 :  05:34:57  Show Profile  Click to see billgoodman's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by vilainde

Nah tried it once more and it's still bland as hell...

Is it just me or does the end solo on Doggerel feel as great as the end of Motorway? I love this part so much.


Denis




It's just as epic yes

The whole album is a bit bland, I'm afraid

---------------------------
BF: Mag ik Engels spreken?
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johnnyribcage
* Dog in the Sand *

USA
1291 Posts

Posted - 10/11/2022 :  09:33:07  Show Profile  Visit johnnyribcage's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I gotta figure out what pedal Joey is using in the quiet parts of the title track. Sounds like some kind of 100% wet reverb signal but with a very subtle pitch shift to bend it down maybe 25 cents or so as it decays. Very creepy / dreamlike. Like the soundtrack to purgatory or some other haunted dimension.


I had a bad reaction to your public hobby writings.
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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<

Netherlands
6013 Posts

Posted - 10/11/2022 :  12:11:29  Show Profile  Click to see billgoodman's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
It's one of the best parts of the album, that's for sure
Sounds like Twin Peaks

---------------------------
BF: Mag ik Engels spreken?
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Troubles A Foot
= Cult of Ray =

USA
818 Posts

Posted - 10/11/2022 :  12:36:49  Show Profile  Visit Troubles A Foot's Homepage  Reply with Quote
If only they let the groove go on longer. I love that part of the song, but as catchy as the chorus is, it's just too bland and I don't think it works with that groove, and ends up taking up so much time of the track. If I was the Dalgety I would have suggested more verses, more jamming on this groove, etc, etc.
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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<

Netherlands
6013 Posts

Posted - 10/11/2022 :  13:36:21  Show Profile  Click to see billgoodman's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
Oh Yes, the song could go on forever

---------------------------
BF: Mag ik Engels spreken?
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vilainde
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<

Niue
7438 Posts

Posted - 10/12/2022 :  00:52:54  Show Profile  Visit vilainde's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Troubles A Foot

If only they let the groove go on longer. I love that part of the song, but as catchy as the chorus is, it's just too bland and I don't think it works with that groove, and ends up taking up so much time of the track. If I was the Dalgety I would have suggested more verses, more jamming on this groove, etc, etc.



Wait for the 12" remix!


Denis
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johnnyribcage
* Dog in the Sand *

USA
1291 Posts

Posted - 10/12/2022 :  05:22:12  Show Profile  Visit johnnyribcage's Homepage  Reply with Quote
kind of land on the other side of the fence when it comes to a band like Pixies. Now donít get me wrong, I love long songs and drawn out jams. Iím a Deadhead, I love King Crimson, Phish, Miles Davis, etc. I can listen to a 22 minute Miles jam from 74, or a 40 minute Tweezer (Phish) and think nothing of it. But Pixies are short song format band. They arenít jammers, and pretty much everything theyíve ever done (and FBF overall for that matter) are really organized, arranged things that they do the same way basically every time, same solos and everything. Except maybe Vamos.

The shorter songs lead to the desire for a lot of repeat listens. When a great song is short, you just want to start it over again, and there is a lot of joy and satisfaction in that for me. It doesnít wear out itís welcome I guess. Hereís an example - and this can apply to a lot of Beatles songs - but when I first heard Strawberry Fields, I had to listen again and again and again, and I remember thinking ďman that groove at the end is so awesome,Ē the one with the wild drums, and I was always thinking ďjeez if theyíd only stretched that out a couple minutes.Ē But it wouldnít have been the same. Instead I just had to start it again. If they had stretched it, it would have worn the sheen off and been less special.

So for this track, I think itís just right, especially for this band.


I had a bad reaction to your public hobby writings.

Edited by - johnnyribcage on 10/12/2022 05:47:38
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Troubles A Foot
= Cult of Ray =

USA
818 Posts

Posted - 10/12/2022 :  13:35:25  Show Profile  Visit Troubles A Foot's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brank_Flack

Note: not sure what the button holes line refers to. Edit: duh, the "button ponds".


Huh? Lil' help?

quote:

It would then also connect to Doggerel's story of the New England villagers who attempted to leave their valley, but were always brought back.



Again, what? What is this referring to? What did I miss?
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Troubles A Foot
= Cult of Ray =

USA
818 Posts

Posted - 10/12/2022 :  13:37:42  Show Profile  Visit Troubles A Foot's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by johnnyribcage
If they had stretched it, it would have worn the sheen off and been less special.

So for this track, I think itís just right, especially for this band.




Well, my problem is they stretch the wrong part of the song. The chorus is the least interesting thing and it goes on and on. But the groove is cool and it's over very fast.
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Sprite
* Dog in the Sand *

1228 Posts

Posted - 10/12/2022 :  14:08:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I do know what you mean. The groove in the first half is just sooo good you want it to go on forever. Somebody on YouTube did an edit of No.13 Baby with the outro extended by about 2/3 mins. Would be nice if they would do a reverse job with Doggerel.

Edited by - Sprite on 10/12/2022 14:26:23
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Sprite
* Dog in the Sand *

1228 Posts

Posted - 10/12/2022 :  14:21:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by vilainde

Kudos Sprite, I agree with a lot of what you wrote here. Haven't read the 23 pages of this thread but I do get the various influences, 60s oldies but a lot of 90s bands too. Doggerel reminds me of the Stone Roses.
Haven't heard the album enough times though. I still don't have the slightest idea of what Thunder & Lightning sounds like, I'm still not sure the song is actually on the album... hope it'll end up being a grower.

Denis




Cheers Vilainde!

So when the Pixies broke up, the NME did a 2 page spread about how sad that was which included a list of the their top 10 tracks. And to my complete astonishment Winterlong was No. 1. It took me a long time to appreciate why somebody might dig that tune quite so much. And it was a similar story for me with the Catholics, I even assumed I was finished as a FB fan between COR and Pistelero. It was only DITS came out (and in part discovering FB.net) that once again I was lured back under the FB spell. Anyway I think Thunder & Lightning is as good Winterlong.

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Sprite
* Dog in the Sand *

1228 Posts

Posted - 10/12/2022 :  14:26:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by billgoodman

quote:
Originally posted by Sprite

Am a bit late to the party as I had some family stuff going on but have been listening on repeat since the start of the weekend. Short version I am seriously impressedÖ.

I get all sorts of reference points and feelings from the different songs, many already expressed in some great posts above. And much more variety in the influences which are more front and centre than any Pixies record Iíve known. I pick out several of the mentioned 70s references already, Beatles/George Harrison, Neil Young, Fleetwood Mack. But also Kraftwerk in Pazís numbers on Thunder and Lightning. Arty Pixies are back in the room on Nomatterday and Get Simulated. I hear Achtung Baby on Doggerel and Jordan era Prefab Sprout on Whose more sorry now?.

I thought BTE was excellent. I donít like every single song but I like/love the vast majority. What is elevating this record above BTE is the sheer quality in the run of tunes all the way from Haunted House though to the end (+ Nomatterday). And as also mentioned above the kind of hesitant, slightly off/what-would-the-Pixies-do moments that crept in from time to time on the previous 2.0 albums have completely evaporated (except on Dregs which I will forgive as it is lovely to see Santiago get to do one of his songs). In an alternative timeline I reckon Frank could have shown this set of songs to Kim and she would never have left (not to take anything away from Pazís amazing contribution). Mrs Sprite (not a FB/Pixies obsessive like me) says itís the best new one by a mile.

The Pixies record it most reminds me of is Bossanova (Get Simulated for Is She Weird, Nomatterday for All over the World, Haunted House for Dig For Fire). On the opening bars of Doggerel when the drumsticks click I am transported right back to 1990 alternative night at McGonagles in Dublin where Debaser or Allison would fit in seamlessly with Loaded, Soon, Step on and How soon is now.

I used to have the Surfer Rosa (12/12) and Doolittle (13/12) album reviews by Graham Linehan from Hot Press on the bedroom wall as a teenager (long since lost sadly). But a line from one of them always stayed with me. It said that in every Pixies song there is a moment where a shiver goes down your spine. And it really resonated with me. And there have been moments when I got that shiver during Pixies 2.0 (Plaster of Paris, Bird of Prey, Ring the Bell, Hey Debussy to name a few). But I get it 7 of 8 times on this record. I canít get enough of Haunted House, Thunder & Lightning & Whose More Sorry Now & Doggerel in particular.

The last Pixies song I heard before the break-up was I Canít Forget from Iím your Fan. I loved this cover version which sounded cinematic, with the chugging beat and swirling organ, it could have been the start of a great new direction. I can easily imagine Doggerel being announced in early í93 as their 70s record, just as Bossanova was a 50s sci-fi and Trompe was a going to be a Ďmetalí record. And it is *absolutely* 100% a Pixies record, not a FB, BF or Catholics record. To my ears it fits in seamlessly with the 1.0 records.

I listen to this album and I desperately want them to go straight back in and record another bunch of these 40s songs. In fact, do two more albums and call it the Memphis trilogy. Iím done with hearing WIMM, Debaser, Monkey and Vamos for the umpteenth time. I donít need to hear a scream again. I donít care about surreal lyrics or strange words I have to look up in a dictionary. I donít care about the producers or bass players from the 80s Pixies. I want some more of this instantiation, with this producer, making songs as good as this. Even though at a fundamental level it never bothered me if they could not reach the heights of run 1.0, at a kind of superficial level it did. But in trying not to make a Pixies record they actually made the one that sounds most like the Pixies.

Honestly, I think theyíve done a record as good as the first run and am happy to die on that hill. For sure the best BF since Bluefinger. My only gripe is the just the 12 songs. Be brave and gives us 15 next time!
Hereís my album ranking

Doggerel
BTE
BTE Demos
Head Carrier
Indie Cindy





Love this post
Thanks!

Doggerel hasn't fully clicked yet
But your review makes me curious again
I might enjoy it on a whole other level
(but I'm not familiair with most of the 70's icons you named)

---------------------------
BF: Mag ik Engels spreken?



Cheers Bill, happy listening!
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vilainde
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<

Niue
7438 Posts

Posted - 10/13/2022 :  01:18:22  Show Profile  Visit vilainde's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Oooh I just realized how much Doggerel sounds like Man Of Steel! With the glockenspiel and all, and this killer outro. That has to be why I love it so much.

Denis
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Troubles A Foot
= Cult of Ray =

USA
818 Posts

Posted - 10/13/2022 :  08:23:47  Show Profile  Visit Troubles A Foot's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Oh no, comparing it to Man of Steel will make me only like the song LESS. Man of Steel is probably my favorite (and first one I ever heard) Frank song.
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Bedbug
> Teenager of the Year <

2966 Posts

Posted - 10/13/2022 :  08:40:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Agree with Johnny Rib that I canít picture the Pixies ďjamming.Ē

Vamos is their only jam song and itís 4 minutes long.

I donít think Iíd want to hear them doing a ten minute solo in the middle of any song

And I love my jams! Dean Ween doing 17 minute solo on Poopship Destroyer and stuff like that is something.
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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<

Netherlands
6013 Posts

Posted - 10/13/2022 :  13:42:13  Show Profile  Click to see billgoodman's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by vilainde

Oooh I just realized how much Doggerel sounds like Man Of Steel! With the glockenspiel and all, and this killer outro. That has to be why I love it so much.

Denis




Isn't it great that Frank can write two of these epic songs?
Years apart, but still

---------------------------
BF: Mag ik Engels spreken?
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johnnyribcage
* Dog in the Sand *

USA
1291 Posts

Posted - 10/13/2022 :  16:25:00  Show Profile  Visit johnnyribcage's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Page 23 making a run at a record in sheer scrolling length. Watch this comment be the first of page 24
Edit - Stayiní Alive!

I had a bad reaction to your public hobby writings.

Edited by - johnnyribcage on 10/13/2022 16:25:21
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vilainde
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<

Niue
7438 Posts

Posted - 10/14/2022 :  04:53:44  Show Profile  Visit vilainde's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Troubles A Foot

Oh no, comparing it to Man of Steel will make me only like the song LESS. Man of Steel is probably my favorite (and first one I ever heard) Frank song.



Hey Man Of Steel is a real masterpiece I know. But are you saying "I'll never wander again / I'll never wander again / I'm gonna stay to the end here with you" is bland but "There is a place [x20]" isn't?

Denis
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