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picpic
* Dog in the Sand *

Belgium
1188 Posts

Posted - 08/19/2016 :  06:47:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by peter radiator
The overcompression thing has even bled over (see what I did there?) Into live concert sound as well, to more closely mimic the recorded product. It's a bummer.

True. I noticed that too. David live drum sound is "muddier" now than before. Until now I thought his playing had evolved into something else, or maybe the way he holds his stick with a traditional grip gave that kind of muffled sound. But maybe you're right, they probably "brickwall" the live sound, too ? That's an interesting point.

Anyway, I've decided this whole crap sound issue won't prevent me to enjoy the new songs. And I enjoy "Talent" ! I like the little guitar licks in the middle of the verses that reminds me of Alec Eiffel. Ending bridge is cool, too. And the fact that they gave this for free is even cooler. I wonder if it was planned or if they did that because of the Amazon "glitch".

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Edited by - picpic on 08/19/2016 06:48:48
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hammerhands
* Dog in the Sand *

Canada
1527 Posts

Posted - 08/19/2016 :  09:38:53  Show Profile  Visit hammerhands's Homepage  Reply with Quote
There's no reason for there not to be more than one mix.

There were mono and stereo mixes in the sixties, and even quad.
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Fitzy
- FB Fan -

Portugal
40 Posts

Posted - 08/19/2016 :  10:06:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Arm Arm Arm

Hey Sprite,

I heard a snippet of Chugga Lugga way back when it was first being performed, and since then I'm avoiding the new music to listen to the record completely fresh.

cheers



Also trying my best to resist. I heard the demos for O' Little Cloud, UCL and Last Night the Wolves Came Out. UCL at the time sounded to me like the worst of the bunch.

I was at the NOS Alive festival, so I couldn't help but hear the live versions of Baal's Back, UCL, Head Carrier and Classic Masher.

But I've almost forgotten them by now. Except for the occasional "Head Carrier... Head Carrier" mumbling while walking down the street.
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natenate101
= Cult of Ray =

USA
685 Posts

Posted - 08/19/2016 :  10:35:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Fitzy

quote:
Originally posted by Arm Arm Arm

Hey Sprite,

I heard a snippet of Chugga Lugga way back when it was first being performed, and since then I'm avoiding the new music to listen to the record completely fresh.

cheers



Also trying my best to resist. I heard the demos for O' Little Cloud, UCL and Last Night the Wolves Came Out. UCL at the time sounded to me like the worst of the bunch.

I was at the NOS Alive festival, so I couldn't help but hear the live versions of Baal's Back, UCL, Head Carrier and Classic Masher.

But I've almost forgotten them by now. Except for the occasional "Head Carrier... Head Carrier" mumbling while walking down the street.




Haha, I mumble it all the time!
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The Maharal
= Cult of Ray =

612 Posts

Posted - 08/19/2016 :  10:35:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Wonder when O Little Cloud will show up. Absolutely love it, especially the backing vocals. Maybe it'll show up whenever BF decides on another solo album. Hope it doesn't get forgotten like Make It Stop, another demo I really liked from back in the day.

Also, I'm guessing they've abandoned the idea of the Guncotten / Good Inn album? Still obviously a lot of French bits and pieces on the album but can't see where Head Carrier or Talent fit in.
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Bedbug
= Cult of Ray =

440 Posts

Posted - 08/19/2016 :  12:26:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Where can you hear "Make It Stop" ?
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The Maharal
= Cult of Ray =

612 Posts

Posted - 08/20/2016 :  02:47:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I heard it on one of the podcasts. Don't have it as a file unfortunately.
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tisasawath
= Cult of Ray =

Wallis and Futuna Islands
753 Posts

Posted - 08/20/2016 :  04:26:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
http://www.megafileupload.com/7nkx/Make_It_Stop.m4a
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Arm Arm Arm
= Cult of Ray =

998 Posts

Posted - 08/20/2016 :  06:38:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Fitzy

quote:
Originally posted by Arm Arm Arm

Hey Sprite,

I heard a snippet of Chugga Lugga way back when it was first being performed, and since then I'm avoiding the new music to listen to the record completely fresh.

cheers



Also trying my best to resist.

I was at the NOS Alive festival, so I couldn't help but hear the live versions of Baal's Back, UCL, Head Carrier and Classic Masher.





I understand. It's tempting to click and listen, getting a taste for something new, especially after Indy Cindy, for me, a so-so album.

But it's a good feeling to start track 1 on a new album with no clue what to expect; at that moment it's worth the wait, even if the record isn't the best.

cheers
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picpic
* Dog in the Sand *

Belgium
1188 Posts

Posted - 08/20/2016 :  20:46:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
New Black F interview about the upcoming album

https://itunes.apple.com/be/post/idsa.8f505537-6495-11e6-863f-06b1307e1e4f?l=fr

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johnnyribcage
= Cult of Ray =

USA
771 Posts

Posted - 08/21/2016 :  12:07:28  Show Profile  Visit johnnyribcage's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Discoking

doesn't a record get brickwalled at the very end, during the mastering?
if i understand it correctly, this has nothing to do with the way things were recorded, or if they used protools or not.

we just have to hope one day a premaster will become available. these things sometimes do.
fingers crossed that there are some cd-rs with the premaster floating around, and one day one of them will find its way out.


it's educational



Yes - this is exactly correct. Odds are most contemporary recordings sound probably really great before they're shipped off to mastering. The good news about this is, somewhere, there are mixdowns of most of this stuff (2005ish-current day music for most bands) with lots of headroom just waiting to have a nice light mastering laid on it. "Premasters" will become the new "remasters" one day. I posted about this somewhere else around here, but haven't been talking about it much to avoid beating a dead horse.

But yes, the majority of the damage is done after the fact.



My density has popped me to you.

Edited by - johnnyribcage on 08/21/2016 12:08:40
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sdon
= Cult of Ray =

France
530 Posts

Posted - 08/21/2016 :  19:19:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by johnnyribcage

Odds are most contemporary recordings sound probably really great before they're shipped off to mastering. The good news about this is, somewhere, there are mixdowns of most of this stuff (2005ish-current day music for most bands) with lots of headroom just waiting to have a nice light mastering laid on it. "Premasters" will become the new "remasters" one day. I posted about this somewhere else around here, but haven't been talking about it much to avoid beating a dead horse.

But yes, the majority of the damage is done after the fact.
My density has popped me to you.



I just don't believe such levels of compression are only obtained at the mastering stage.
It requires compression during pre-mix phases, and sometimes even during recording (for drums or bass it's rather frequent)
As picpic said, "the drum track might be compressed as hell way before the final mastering for example. In this case, there's no hope to hear a "proper"-sounding version of those albums ever. "

--
"Aristophanes! (gong sounds)"
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picpic
* Dog in the Sand *

Belgium
1188 Posts

Posted - 08/22/2016 :  00:54:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Maybe with Pro Tools, if they keep the "project" files before mixing, they could disable the compressors on every track. But at this point, you probably need to remix the whole damn thing in order to achieve the desired sound. Commercialy not viable.

That said, I remember when Metallica released their Death Magnetic album, which was totally un-listenable because of brickwalling, fans ultimately got their normal-sounding version from Guitar Hero audio rips. I that case, it looks like the mastering step was responsible for most of the audio issues. Problem is: I don't think we'll ever have post-reunion Pixies music in Guitar Hero.


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Edited by - picpic on 08/22/2016 00:56:50
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Discoking
= Cult of Ray =

Belgium
732 Posts

Posted - 08/22/2016 :  01:34:56  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
maybe in 2038.


it's educational
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peter radiator
= Cult of Ray =

USA
553 Posts

Posted - 08/22/2016 :  07:15:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Much of what many of you are saying about compression and its deleterious effects is correct, even if it seems to be at odds.

Just to be clear, compression in and of itself is not the bad guy here. In fact, compression is an essential tool for making great sounding recordings of most modern-day forms of music.

It routinely comes into play at all stages of the recording process, and is actually in great part responsible for some of your favorite guitar tones, vocal tracks, snare drum sounds, etc...

Even when it is taken to extremes for artistic purposes (such as to create aggressive or grating soundscapes for industrial or metal music, for example) it is ideal.

However, over the past couple of decades, it has increasingly been used as a lazy, follow-the-leader method to "squash" entire, final mixes (which themselves may have already been compressed somewhat in the recording studio to achieve a result desired by the artists or producers) during mastering, for the simplistic purpose of making sure that even the quietest parts of a recording are at virtually the same volume or have the same "presence" as the loudest part of said recording.

The same thing had been done with the audio tracks on TV commercials for decades prior, because TV commercials used to always be mastered "louder" than TV shows. That way, they would "jump out" at the viewer and command their attention.

When consumer protection laws were put in place to ban such practices, the commercial studios retaliated by simply compressing all their audio tracks so that the commercials were not "technically" louder than the shows they interrupted, but "felt" or "seemed" louder to the viewer by being less dynamic and more sonically aggressive and forceful.

When you are dealing with TV spots which are generally short in length and made up mostly of speech, it is not as noticeable. Now that the same approach is being automatically applied to most all forms of popular, commercial music for the sole purpose of trying to get it to either "stand out" or merely "keep up" on radio and in digital playlists with the volume level and forcefulness that has become the norm for rock, hip-hop and metal genres, it is quite noticeable and for many listeners causes near instantaneous ear and mind fatigue, in addition to robbing nuanced music of much of its feel and subtlety.

However, even old-school punk and rock artists have embraced this type of compression as a matter of personal taste.

FBF's own hero Iggy Pop bragged over a decade ago about demanding that Sony's engineers compress his belated remix of the RAW POWER LP until it caused slight amounts of digital "clipping," a big no-no in the world of professional audio.

He wanted it to be as loud as humanly possible coming out of the speakers, and he liked the sound of having all the subtleties compressed to within an inch of their life.

So, for some people, this sort of sound is actually something they're "going after."

Hope some of this info helps folks on the board who may not be hep to such things to grok the back-and-forth on this thread.

~ L.F.

--

"Real music is out there and real people are making it." ~ Webb Wilder
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hammerhands
* Dog in the Sand *

Canada
1527 Posts

Posted - 08/22/2016 :  07:44:39  Show Profile  Visit hammerhands's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I can't imagine why you would need to compress anything before the mix
in a digital studio. That would lose a lot of flexibility. You have virtually
limitless space and tracks.

The job of the recording engineer is to get quiet, faithful recordings.
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peter radiator
= Cult of Ray =

USA
553 Posts

Posted - 08/22/2016 :  10:11:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by hammerhands

I can't imagine why you would need to compress anything before the mix
in a digital studio. That would lose a lot of flexibility. You have virtually
limitless space and tracks.

The job of the recording engineer is to get quiet, faithful recordings.



Many folks agree with you on that description, Hammerhands.

Generally speaking, I am one of them!

Unfortunately, a lot of folks do not, and many of them are in the business of (or feel that they are in the business of) making commercially available records.

The democratization of audio recording has brought all manner of amateur and/or hobbyist engineers/producers into the professional (or quasi-professional) realm, and many of them have little or no loyalty to, or even respect for the ethos you describe.

Them days is gone.

~ L.F.

--

"Real music is out there and real people are making it." ~ Webb Wilder
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TRANSMARINE
* Dog in the Sand *

USA
2001 Posts

Posted - 08/22/2016 :  17:07:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Just excited to finally hear a fleshed-out OONA. The demo back from late 2012 (as I've shared with a small handfull of you) was labeled as UNA...and the lyrics were slightly differnt. Gonna be rad!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I want the guy who did this. I want him. I want him bad........" TJ Hooker
-bRIAN
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Discoking
= Cult of Ray =

Belgium
732 Posts

Posted - 08/22/2016 :  22:15:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TRANSMARINE

The demo back from late 2012 (as I've shared with a small handfull of you) was labeled as UNA...


ooh! any chance i could be added to this small handful? danke!


it's educational

Edited by - Discoking on 08/24/2016 23:17:35
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hammerhands
* Dog in the Sand *

Canada
1527 Posts

Posted - 08/23/2016 :  00:04:20  Show Profile  Visit hammerhands's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by peter radiator

quote:
Originally posted by hammerhands

I can't imagine why you would need to compress anything before the mix
in a digital studio. That would lose a lot of flexibility. You have virtually
limitless space and tracks.

The job of the recording engineer is to get quiet, faithful recordings.



Many folks agree with you on that description, Hammerhands.

loyalty to, or even respect for the ethos you describe.

Them days is gone.



It makes no sense to do anything but get a hi-fidelity recording
of each instrument, as isolated as possible, as the atoms for the
final product.
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picpic
* Dog in the Sand *

Belgium
1188 Posts

Posted - 08/23/2016 :  01:05:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Discoking

quote:
Originally posted by TRANSMARINE

The demo back from late 2012 (as I've shared with a small handfull of you) was labeled as UNA...


ooh! any chance i could be added to this small handful? danke!
(my username on here, at gmail dot com)


it's educational


2nd on the list.

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peter radiator
= Cult of Ray =

USA
553 Posts

Posted - 08/23/2016 :  07:43:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by hammerhands

It makes no sense to do anything but get a hi-fidelity recording
of each instrument, as isolated as possible, as the atoms for the
final product.



I'm not arguing with you, just trying to point out that all sorts of people do all sorts of thing that don't make "sense" to all sorts of other people, and that many, many times throughout the history of making records, doing things in a manner which is in some respects contrary to the rather unforgiving one you describe above has resulted in some of the most classic, enduring and iconic sounds, tones and tracks which exist today.

Sometimes the sounds being made in the studio by the instruments themselves are, in and of themselves, not what the artists or the producer are looking for, and require slight or copious processing at the time of capture.

Not everyone involved in making recorded music is an absolutist, nor do they feel a duty to conduct themselves like field recording documentarians. The studio is a sandbox or a painter's palette, where all kindsa shit gets mixed up and jumbled in pursuit of a final goal.

I can completely see where plenty of artists and/or producers would not be the least bit interested having their Lego castles so easily reverse engineered, down to the individual bricks, but would instead prefer to glue groups of them together so that no matter how far someone wanted to disassemble their architecture, they could never get back to square one.

This could be the result of pride in their creation, contrariness, lack of interest in such pursuits or simple laziness.

Just sayin'. :)

~ L.F.

--

"Real music is out there and real people are making it." ~ Webb Wilder
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presley1
- FB Fan -

United Kingdom
49 Posts

Posted - 08/23/2016 :  07:50:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TRANSMARINE

Just excited to finally hear a fleshed-out OONA. The demo back from late 2012 (as I've shared with a small handfull of you) was labeled as UNA...and the lyrics were slightly differnt. Gonna be rad!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I want the guy who did this. I want him. I want him bad........" TJ Hooker
-bRIAN



Fancy sharing?

Oh my golly!
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Bedbug
= Cult of Ray =

440 Posts

Posted - 08/23/2016 :  07:57:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Is compression vs. non-compression cost neutral to the producers?
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peter radiator
= Cult of Ray =

USA
553 Posts

Posted - 08/23/2016 :  08:07:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bedbug

Is compression vs. non-compression cost neutral to the producers?



If I understand your question correctly, then the answer is yes. Meaning that it costs nothing more than the time it takes to turn a knob, or move a slider, or enter parameters into a program.

It's simply one of many common types of signal processing that are applied to both individual channels or signals either at the time of capture, or afterwards.

It's also important to understand that when we are discussing these new tracks from the upcoming album, we are hearing them after they have been ADDITIONALLY compressed via MP3 or M4A codecs, and then again through into YouTube or Soundcloud and down the interwebs into whatever playback configuration each of us is listening to.

~ L.F.

--

"Real music is out there and real people are making it." ~ Webb Wilder

Edited by - peter radiator on 08/23/2016 08:10:14
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natenate101
= Cult of Ray =

USA
685 Posts

Posted - 08/23/2016 :  08:22:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Might it be better to move the general compression/sound discussion to its own thread or something?
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peter radiator
= Cult of Ray =

USA
553 Posts

Posted - 08/23/2016 :  08:56:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
hahahahaha

I was thinking the same thing. :)

Sorry for the digression.

~ L. F.

--

"Real music is out there and real people are making it." ~ Webb Wilder
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picpic
* Dog in the Sand *

Belgium
1188 Posts

Posted - 08/23/2016 :  12:17:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by natenate101

Might it be better to move the general compression/sound discussion to its own thread or something?


Good idea as this is significative topic for some of us.

Kind of sad because indeed we could talk about music / lyrics instead of the crap sound. But hey, that's not our fault after all.

If you analyze the last few pages: many commenters are bothered by compression. Some others don't care. And no one actually said "hey, great sound !, I like compression". Speaks volumes about the whole issue if you want my opinion.

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Edited by - picpic on 08/23/2016 12:18:09
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OLDMANOTY
= Cult of Ray =

United Kingdom
446 Posts

Posted - 08/23/2016 :  13:24:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by natenate101

Might it be better to move the general compression/sound discussion to its own thread or something?


Yeah, sorry that was probably my fault for bringing the issue up again.

Going by UCL & T (yeah 'T', why not) I predict Head Carrier is going to be a significant step up from IC. Like others I've deliberately avoided listening to live spoilers & I'm encouraged that the new songs seem to be around the 3 min mark or less: lean, to the point, not a note wasted etc.

Edited by - OLDMANOTY on 08/23/2016 13:28:05
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Discoking
= Cult of Ray =

Belgium
732 Posts

Posted - 08/23/2016 :  21:05:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
to answer your question ("why not?"): i find that some people really exagg with their abbrevs.


it's educational
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TRANSMARINE
* Dog in the Sand *

USA
2001 Posts

Posted - 08/24/2016 :  17:37:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Disco king check your email


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I want the guy who did this. I want him. I want him bad........" TJ Hooker
-bRIAN
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Skatealex1
* Dog in the Sand *

1608 Posts

Posted - 08/24/2016 :  19:56:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If you can send me the track too, that would be appreciated. My emails skatealex2 @ gmail Thanks!
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picpic
* Dog in the Sand *

Belgium
1188 Posts

Posted - 08/24/2016 :  20:13:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Just click the little "E-Mail poster" icon for me ;-)



Thanks ;-)

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Edited by - picpic on 08/24/2016 20:18:46
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sdon
= Cult of Ray =

France
530 Posts

Posted - 08/24/2016 :  20:26:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
^^ exact same thing for me please Transmarine

merci!

--
"Aristophanes! (gong sounds)"
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pmjk
- FB Fan -

Ireland
84 Posts

Posted - 08/24/2016 :  22:15:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Transmarine
Can you send me the Una demo please?
The email functionality within the forum dosnt appear to work for me.
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