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trobrianders
> Teenager of the Year <
Papua New Guinea
3302 Posts |
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Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
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danjersey
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
2813 Posts |
 Posted - 08/04/2009 : 16:28:48
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I really enjoy listening to Christopher debate, as for reading him not so much but will do anyway. Hitchens likens the idea of God to "A Celestial Dictator" he also has spent much of his time traveling the globe and writing on all matters of international interest. I would think his way of life and upbringing differ some what from that of the people and institutions he comments on. I would also guess his work rarely reaches far beyond the choir, that is, those with the freedom to think and read for themselves and will do so with or without him, wether they choose to pick up a koran or cat's cradle. But he plugs on anyway. After all there are far worse ways of making a living.
I'm Sorry, I got side tracked. Who were we talking about?
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2009 : 13:05:17
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I remember sitting in a basement listening to Fields of Marigold until I passed out.
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mediumhoot
- FB Fan -
United Kingdom
26 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2009 : 15:09:41
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| This world needs more anti-theists like Mr Hitchens. |
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danjersey
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
2813 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2009 : 15:30:51
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| If I was trapped in a collapsed coal shaft or found myself in some other dire situation ( a coldplay concert perhaps) I suspect I would brush off the old soul and start negotiating. |
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Jose Jones
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1758 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2009 : 15:34:12
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i feel i've become an atheist. i guess i'm sort of unclear about the exact definition of atheism. i don't really beleive there's a god, but i'm not closed to the possability of a god existing. i just need to see mindnumbingly obvious evidence.
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they were the heroes of old, men of renown. |
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Little Black Francis
> Teenager of the Year <
3648 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2009 : 18:35:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Jose Jones
i feel i've become an atheist. i guess i'm sort of unclear about the exact definition of atheism. i don't really beleive there's a god, but i'm not closed to the possability of a god existing. i just need to see mindnumbingly obvious evidence.
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they were the heroes of old, men of renown.
No offense, besides your defamation of the English language, this is one of the stupidest things I've ever read. Google dude, it just might save you. |
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trobrianders
> Teenager of the Year <
Papua New Guinea
3302 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2009 : 00:39:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Jose Jones
i just need to see mindnumbingly obvious evidence.
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they were the heroes of old, men of renown.
Like the flames of hell in your case? No one needs to see that!
Seriously I know you're not talking about the fictional god of religion. Why refer to a prime cause as god? It's not helpful to confuse the two.
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Ed is the hoo hoo |
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trobrianders
> Teenager of the Year <
Papua New Guinea
3302 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2009 : 02:40:32
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quote:
Originally posted by danjersey
If I was trapped in a collapsed coal shaft or found myself in some other dire situation ( a coldplay concert perhaps) I suspect I would brush off the old soul and start negotiating.
You mean you'd shit your pants. But honestly, no more than that. To trust in a notion born of sheer terror? Kind of Hitchens' point.
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Ed is the hoo hoo |
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Jose Jones
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1758 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2009 : 02:47:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Little Black Francis
quote:
Originally posted by Jose Jones
i feel i've become an atheist. i guess i'm sort of unclear about the exact definition of atheism. i don't really beleive there's a god, but i'm not closed to the possability of a god existing. i just need to see mindnumbingly obvious evidence.
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they were the heroes of old, men of renown.
No offense, besides your defamation of the English language, this is one of the stupidest things I've ever read. Google dude, it just might save you.
it was meant to be, well, stupid sounding. i guess the "stella" sort of thing i was going for didn't really come off so clearly.
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they were the heroes of old, men of renown. |
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danjersey
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
2813 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2009 : 05:40:58
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quote:
Originally posted by trobrianders
quote:
Originally posted by danjersey
If I was trapped in a collapsed coal shaft or found myself in some other dire situation ( a coldplay concert perhaps) I suspect I would brush off the old soul and start negotiating.
You mean you'd shit your pants. But honestly, no more than that. To trust in a notion born of sheer terror? Kind of Hitchens' point.
Easy there anonymous internet person. Lets reign in that ego a bit. You don't know me.
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trobrianders
> Teenager of the Year <
Papua New Guinea
3302 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2009 : 07:27:36
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Down in that foxhole, shitting my pants I could live with, appealing to the supernatural I could not. I thought maybe you too. But my encouragement insults you. Searching for fellow muskateers you're bound to miss occasionally.
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Ed is the hoo hoo |
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Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2009 : 07:35:25
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dan, I can't make head nor tail of half your posts, let alone know you ;-)
nice to see you LBF
I was at a Christian funeral a week or so ago and it stunned me, even more than before, how much mumbo jumbo it all is. I was sat there thinking, how do rational people believe this? It didn't help that the female minister was just like dramatic chipmunk.
Easy Easy Easy!! MicknPhil Marathon Lads Sign this petition |
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danjersey
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
2813 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2009 : 08:44:29
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quote:
Originally posted by trobrianders
Down in that foxhole, shitting my pants I could live with, appealing to the supernatural I could not. I thought maybe you too. But my encouragement insults you. Searching for fellow muskateers you're bound to miss occasionally.
If losing control of one's bowels is how a muskateer handles it, count me out.
Your presumption even if in jest was vulgar, not to mention hopeless.
"I am that I am
from the sun
and people are not
my measure"
-DH Lawrence
and may I add, It is odd how we make such an effort to be understood, especially with those we probably will never meet.
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Edited by - danjersey on 08/06/2009 08:45:07 |
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trobrianders
> Teenager of the Year <
Papua New Guinea
3302 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2009 : 10:16:15
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quote:
Originally posted by danjersey
If losing control of one's bowels is how a muskateer handles it, count me out.
Hey you're the one who brought up Coldplay.
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Ed is the hoo hoo |
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trobrianders
> Teenager of the Year <
Papua New Guinea
3302 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2009 : 11:12:12
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quote:
Originally posted by danjersey
Your presumption even if in jest was vulgar, not to mention hopeless.
In case you misunderstood I was complimenting you by suggesting that if you found yourself in some dire situation, yes you might shit your pants, not soil your pants but shit your pants, as would I or anyone (I see nothing vulgar in stating that terrible fact) but that you wouldn't compromise your own integrity by appealing to a god (to follow Hitchens' argument).
If however you're pre-disposed to god, Hitchens would insist I needn't apologise for offense I've caused you but simply get you to make your argument in terms a rational person can answer.
Or could it simply be that
"Arguments are to be avoided; they are always vulgar and often convincing"
-Oscar Wilde
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Ed is the hoo hoo |
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danjersey
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
2813 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2009 : 11:37:40
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So I should appeal to Hitchens?
Like I typed before, I enjoy listening to him debate.
In matters of faith I make it up as I go. And why shouldn't I? Everybody else does.
Glad you pointed out the Coldplay remark. May distaste for them, unlike my Faith is unwavering.
And If you are a Veteran trobrianders, I apologize. |
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trobrianders
> Teenager of the Year <
Papua New Guinea
3302 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2009 : 12:34:15
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quote:
Originally posted by danjersey
So I should appeal to Hitchens?
Even and especially if he's in the trench opposing yours. By all means appeal to your fellow man.
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Ed is the hoo hoo |
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danjersey
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
2813 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2009 : 12:58:01
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| Trench warfare, collapsed coal mines and foxholes aside? I reserve the right to have reservations. |
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2009 : 13:25:30
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How about waterboarding?
I remember sitting in a basement listening to Fields of Marigold until I passed out.
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trobrianders
> Teenager of the Year <
Papua New Guinea
3302 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2009 : 14:08:33
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I'm proud he only lasted 2 seconds. Wait a minute, that's not waterboarding, that's sitting in a basement listening to Fields of Marigold until you pass out.
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Ed is the hoo hoo |
Edited by - trobrianders on 08/06/2009 14:33:35 |
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Jose Jones
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1758 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2009 : 03:16:47
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at the risk of further mucking up this thread, i just read tom robbins' "still life with woodpecker" and just happened to catch a program called "ancient aliens" on the history channel.
ancient astronaut theory: interesting to entertain or time wasting bullshit?
i don't mean to go off topic, but is this stuff at all credible to any of you?
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they were the heroes of old, men of renown. |
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2009 : 05:36:51
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I don't have an opinion either way about ancient aliens/astrology, Mr. Jones. Sorry. But if, it's any help, I'd be willing to consider proof and I don't think there's a conspiracy afoot to hide said possible ancient aliens from the sheep-like public.
I remember sitting in a basement listening to Fields of Marigold until I passed out.
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trobrianders
> Teenager of the Year <
Papua New Guinea
3302 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2009 : 06:48:43
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There's a part of me that really wishes it were true, that whole All My Ghosts scenario, whether they're imaginable aliens or mythic figures. I'd love, that at the same time as we're proving our links to the natural world through the genome project, that there might be a complete left field stunner discovery of part-alien ancestry.
He'd surely end up being the only relative you adored in your family.
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Ed is the hoo hoo |
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Jose Jones
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1758 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2009 : 06:55:21
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it's certainly a lot more palatable than a god-dictator.
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they were the heroes of old, men of renown. |
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trobrianders
> Teenager of the Year <
Papua New Guinea
3302 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2009 : 12:06:17
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Old news but any indicators of a civilised world are welcome right now.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedi_census_phenomenon
In England and Wales 390,127 people (almost 0.8 percent) stated their religion as Jedi on their 2001 Census forms, surpassing Sikhism, Judaism, and Buddhism, and making it the fourth largest reported religion in the country.
John Pullinger, Director of Reporting and Analysis for the Census, noted that many people who would otherwise not have completed a Census form did so solely to record themselves as Jedi, so this joke helped to improve the quality of the Census.
The Office of National Statistics revealed the total figure in a press release entitled "390,000 Jedis there are".
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Ed is the hoo hoo |
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danjersey
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
2813 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2009 : 15:17:56
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I read Cormac McCarthy's The Road recently *Spoiler Alert* and found the Father's *Again, Spoiler Alert*
rule of not eating people something I could live and die with. He told his son that they were the good guys and that they were carrying "the flame". The Father had the will to go on, but he also carried a pistol loaded with two bullets incase they were about to be captured. I found the book to be a straight forward meditation on faith. I recommend it. As for the spoiler alerts, I don't believe I have written anything here that would take away from reading the story.
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Edited by - danjersey on 08/07/2009 16:20:24 |
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 08/09/2009 : 01:00:33
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Okay I've been lurking here for a couple days, I'll take up the foil.
Hitchens seems like an earnest enough guy, but this "god-dictator" line, while nice and quotable, takes into account about 5% of the history of religion - the more recent, anthropomorphological end of things, culminating in this ridiculous God with a celestial throne and a muddled value-system, a cross between Santa Claus and a CIA spook. Poking fun at this view is like beating up a wheelchair-bound epileptic.
The major religions seem to be deeply perverted spin-offs of some originally beautiful sentiments. The older versions seem to have had a lot more to say about the individual as a divine source of power (along with some great practical stuff, like the meditation and breathing techniques found in Indian scripture). Gradually though, these got warped into control systems with a God father-figure who you could only "contact" through middlemen priests.
Take for example the Gnostic Gospels (writings from 2nd-4th century about the sayings of Jesus, still unaccepted by mainstream Christianity), where Jesus was asked by his disciples "What is the place to which we shall go?" and he answered "The place which you can reach, stand there!" Look at the difference between this and the only quotes most of us know of Jesus, of the type "I am the way, the life etc." The first is an urge to self-exploration and knowledge, the second is an appeal to an airy-fairy concept of a god you can only talk to through a self-imposed middleman, JC in this case. Centuries of religious councils have filtered out philosophies just as useful as the first quote.
It's seriously interesting to look at the cosmologies of the aboriginals of Latin America and Australia, peoples decimated by both men of science and religious zealots alike, who regarded them as either lower creatures incapable of reason or pernicious devils. The aboriginals didn't view the world around them as a neutral, inanimate space but rather as a living extension of themselves - what happened to them affected their environment and viceversa. I'm not as interested in developing a theological theory so much as looking at how such a view could be put to practical use; perhaps adopting such a cosmology similar to the aboriginal - while it might never be empirically provable - would at least be a step in the direction of kindness and compassion and we wouldn't be shitting in our own nest in such a spectacular fashion as we currently are, 200 animal species disappearing per year for the last 200 years, etc.
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Allen Ginsberg says you got no soul. The ancient Egyptians say you got seven of these bastards, and Pharaohs got fourteen, what they get for being Pharaohs. |
Edited by - Newo on 08/09/2009 01:05:36 |
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trobrianders
> Teenager of the Year <
Papua New Guinea
3302 Posts |
Posted - 08/09/2009 : 08:29:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Newo
Okay I've been lurking here for a couple days, I'll take up the foil.
Hitchens seems like an earnest enough guy, but this "god-dictator" line, while nice and quotable, takes into account about 5% of the history of religion - the more recent, anthropomorphological end of things, culminating in this ridiculous God with a celestial throne and a muddled value-system, a cross between Santa Claus and a CIA spook. Poking fun at this view is like beating up a wheelchair-bound epileptic.
The major religions seem to be deeply perverted spin-offs of some originally beautiful sentiments. The older versions seem to have had a lot more to say about the individual as a divine source of power (along with some great practical stuff, like the meditation and breathing techniques found in Indian scripture). Gradually though, these got warped into control systems with a God father-figure who you could only "contact" through middlemen priests.
Take for example the Gnostic Gospels (writings from 2nd-4th century about the sayings of Jesus, still unaccepted by mainstream Christianity), where Jesus was asked by his disciples "What is the place to which we shall go?" and he answered "The place which you can reach, stand there!" Look at the difference between this and the only quotes most of us know of Jesus, of the type "I am the way, the life etc." The first is an urge to self-exploration and knowledge, the second is an appeal to an airy-fairy concept of a god you can only talk to through a self-imposed middleman, JC in this case. Centuries of religious councils have filtered out philosophies just as useful as the first quote.
It's seriously interesting to look at the cosmologies of the aboriginals of Latin America and Australia, peoples decimated by both men of science and religious zealots alike, who regarded them as either lower creatures incapable of reason or pernicious devils. The aboriginals didn't view the world around them as a neutral, inanimate space but rather as a living extension of themselves - what happened to them affected their environment and viceversa. I'm not as interested in developing a theological theory so much as looking at how such a view could be put to practical use; perhaps adopting such a cosmology similar to the aboriginal - while it might never be empirically provable - would at least be a step in the direction of kindness and compassion and we wouldn't be shitting in our own nest in such a spectacular fashion as we currently are, 200 animal species disappearing per year for the last 200 years, etc.
--
Allen Ginsberg says you got no soul. The ancient Egyptians say you got seven of these bastards, and Pharaohs got fourteen, what they get for being Pharaohs.
Hitchens is working backwards. He sees a rise in life-, and way of life-, threatening religious malevolence and he reacts. Attack his chosen method for its effectiveness sure but I doubt he'd let anyone get away with ignoring his motive. Even this thread's admitted skeptic maintains his right to have reservations, a right denied to most of the world's inhabitants by theistic culture. It's only meant to be a rallying cry not a multi volume meditation on world religions throughout history. His audience will surely relate to the idea of the santa claus/CIA spook god and needs to consider that idea in order to weigh up his argument for kerbing 21st century reenergised theocratic power. A power which is more threatening in practice than a wheelchair-bound epileptic. And here's the place where I can't quite hesitate to tell of a far-away cousin and her husband (both doctors). He was gunned down by such a one in such a place in accordance with a clerical policy of deintellectualisation and demoralisation. Why tell you that story? It's similar to the shock tactics Hitchens uses, no? I guess it's not called a wake-up call for nothing.
There's some beauty to be found in religions' origins maybe. But why should CH cloud his argument emphasising that? All that would do is prove a theist is capable of some usefulness despite himself. Bully for him! Hitchens won't convince anyone of the need to topple today's theocracies by talking about the wisdom contained in the 4th century Gnostic Gospels. But he does tell us he could not do without the writings of John Donne and George Herbert and Larkin's poem on churchgoing. Why? And he talks of the usefulness of religion during the darker times in our history when he quotes Heinrich Heine. That's plenty for me. Study of religion would continue in Hitchens' ideal universe. I don't think you'd ever see him burning the last copies of anything. The Gospels will prove safer than Heine's texts did.
To tar today's science with a Victorian brush? Why not, even today's scientists are only humans. And even I've at least read Chatwin. But you will still feel chills when reminded of the Archbishop of Canterbury's views on nuclear war in 1964 or the Pope's repudiation of limbo in 2006.
dan j says CH is not preaching far beyond the converted. If that's true CH has got all his work in front of him. We who like to flatter ourselves as free thinkers! Most intellectuals anytime anyplace try to cosy up, not resist. If Hitchens, Dawkins, Harris, Rushdie etc. don't go so far who then should say what? They don't regard this as difference of opinion, they regard it as a battle.
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Ed is the hoo hoo |
Edited by - trobrianders on 08/09/2009 12:01:05 |
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danjersey
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
2813 Posts |
Posted - 08/09/2009 : 16:06:41
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Question: If anti-theism is the battle, what in your opinion is the war?
I brought up the subject of cannibalism for it's grim illustration of what I consider an act of self preservation beyond reason. I could argue self defense in most cases but harvesting your own species for survival I can not. But is allowing myself to die of starvation logical? No.
What of this figurative line we collectively seem to agree on not crossing? Crimes against humanity are as constant as the weather, murder, torture etc.
"you don't need to eat a whole bowl of scabs to know they're scabs" - E. Hemingway
I was raised Catholic so the ritual, this idea of ever lasting life has always been with me. I can't see anti-theist chowing down on the weak or selected just as I've never heard of any Catholics rushing the alter to bite the Priest. But over time reason and logic as history shows can be rewritten. When the debate is over, then what?
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5456 Posts |
Posted - 08/09/2009 : 16:27:05
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quote:
Originally posted by danjersey
I brought up the subject of cannibalism for it's grim illustration of what I consider an act of self preservation beyond reason. I could argue self defense in most cases but harvesting your own species for survival I can not.
Why is cannibalism so beyond reason? Meat is meat. It's not unusual. |
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danjersey
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
2813 Posts |
Posted - 08/09/2009 : 16:52:39
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin
quote:
Originally posted by danjersey
I brought up the subject of cannibalism for it's grim illustration of what I consider an act of self preservation beyond reason. I could argue self defense in most cases but harvesting your own species for survival I can not.
Why is cannibalism so beyond reason? Meat is meat. It's not unusual.
If art imitates life, it is due to our minds parameters
boundaries
paint a picture you have the edge of the canvass
sculpt a form you work with in the stone
Because I can not see to the end of the universe, the frame of all things, there remains the unknown.
And while I'm down here on this page
I am humbled. |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5456 Posts |
Posted - 08/09/2009 : 17:59:34
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| Sarah Palin wants her random text generator back. |
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danjersey
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
2813 Posts |
Posted - 08/09/2009 : 19:07:46
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darwin, this display of sloth is all you've got?
Please sir, I have gained much perspective from Owen's and trobriander's posts.
But this:quote:
Originally posted by darwin
Sarah Palin wants her random text generator back.
is discouraging.
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5456 Posts |
Posted - 08/09/2009 : 19:34:13
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| I asked a question and you replied with what I can only interpret as gibberish. But that's fine. You guys were having a good conversation. Carry on. |
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Had just about enough of god!
