| Author |
 Topic  |
|
danjersey
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
2813 Posts |
 Posted - 08/09/2009 : 20:02:46
|
quote:
Originally posted by darwin
I asked a question and you replied with what I can only interpret as gibberish. But that's fine. You guys were having a good conversation. Carry on.
the last thing I expect from this forum is exclusion. Some may glance at this thread and wonder why? My reason is constantly adapting.
|
 |
|
|
trobrianders
> Teenager of the Year <
Papua New Guinea
3302 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2009 : 00:31:03
|
quote:
Originally posted by danjersey
If art imitates life, it is due to our minds parameters
boundaries
paint a picture you have the edge of the canvass
sculpt a form you work with in the stone
Because I can not see to the end of the universe, the frame of all things, there remains the unknown.
And while I'm down here on this page
I am humbled.
Remain humble or go discover? Humility is portable.
Battle and war are often used interchangably. But if you were alluding to some kind of Freudian slip (ungodly war against ourselves?) you might explain further. I woild put it like so; the war against theism going back to Galileo and beyond. The battle against the theists of the day.
Cannibalism is a complex issue in this context. Cannibalism is an act of self-preservation beyond Catholic reasoning but it is not beyond cannibal reasoning. The Catholic church sanctioned the enslavement of cannibals and benefited economically. Hard to imagine a grimmer illustration of self preservation beyond reason than the preaching of hellfire to children. Something that no self-respecting cannibal might ever have been caught dead and eaten doing.
_______________
Ed is the hoo hoo |
|
|
|
Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2009 : 05:54:58
|
quote:
Hitchens is working backwards. He sees a rise in life-, and way of life-, threatening religious malevolence and he reacts. Attack his chosen method for its effectiveness sure but I doubt he'd let anyone get away with ignoring his motive. Even this thread's admitted skeptic maintains his right to have reservations, a right denied to most of the world's inhabitants by theistic culture. It's only meant to be a rallying cry not a multi volume meditation on world religions throughout history. His audience will surely relate to the idea of the santa claus/CIA spook god and needs to consider that idea in order to weigh up his argument for kerbing 21st century reenergised theocratic power. A power which is more threatening in practice than a wheelchair-bound epileptic. And here's the place where I can't quite hesitate to tell of a far-away cousin and her husband (both doctors). He was gunned down by such a one in such a place in accordance with a clerical policy of deintellectualisation and demoralisation. Why tell you that story? It's similar to the shock tactics Hitchens uses, no? I guess it's not called a wake-up call for nothing.
There's some beauty to be found in religions' origins maybe. But why should CH cloud his argument emphasising that? All that would do is prove a theist is capable of some usefulness despite himself. Bully for him! Hitchens won't convince anyone of the need to topple today's theocracies by talking about the wisdom contained in the 4th century Gnostic Gospels. But he does tell us he could not do without the writings of John Donne and George Herbert and Larkin's poem on churchgoing. Why? And he talks of the usefulness of religion during the darker times in our history when he quotes Heinrich Heine. That's plenty for me. Study of religion would continue in Hitchens' ideal universe. I don't think you'd ever see him burning the last copies of anything. The Gospels will prove safer than Heine's texts did.
To tar today's science with a Victorian brush? Why not, even today's scientists are only humans. And even I've at least read Chatwin. But you will still feel chills when reminded of the Archbishop of Canterbury's views on nuclear war in 1964 or the Pope's repudiation of limbo in 2006.
dan j says CH is not preaching far beyond the converted. If that's true CH has got all his work in front of him. We who like to flatter ourselves as free thinkers! Most intellectuals anytime anyplace try to cosy up, not resist. If Hitchens, Dawkins, Harris, Rushdie etc. don't go so far who then should say what? They don't regard this as difference of opinion, they regard it as a battle.
I find Hitchens' approach, while it had great parts, to be a little self-defeating to his own purpose, this kind of sensationalistic tone (religion born of terror etc.) would only alienate the many people who toy with religions (or mix and match from them) for the beautiful aspects they might contain. And it is these people Hitchens should be interested in reaching, it sure as hell isn't the guy with eyes rolled back in forehead saying you need to read the Bible because humans need an instruction manual just as a VCR does. (There's nothing you can do with religious zealots except give them as wide a berth as possible.) But Hitchens is Hitchens, and though he's funny when giving poor old Kissinger a good kicking, he's the kind of thinker where he has a hammer and everything looks like a nail.
About the Victorian brush, I didn't just have the aethyr in mind when I wrote that, but you can find the same views further afield too. I recommend Fritjof Capra's "The Tao of Physics", about the parallels between quantum physics and Oriental mysticism.
--
Allen Ginsberg says you got no soul. The ancient Egyptians say you got seven of these bastards, and Pharaohs got fourteen, what they get for being Pharaohs. |
|
|
|
Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2009 : 05:57:18
|
quote:
darwin Posted - 08/09/2009 : 16:27:05
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by danjersey
I brought up the subject of cannibalism for it's grim illustration of what I consider an act of self preservation beyond reason. I could argue self defense in most cases but harvesting your own species for survival I can not.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why is cannibalism so beyond reason? Meat is meat. It's not unusual.
Damn right, everyone's got a line. Many well-conditioned Westerners find it genuinely repulsive that Chinese eat dogs while chicken seems to be okay.
--
Allen Ginsberg says you got no soul. The ancient Egyptians say you got seven of these bastards, and Pharaohs got fourteen, what they get for being Pharaohs. |
|
|
|
danjersey
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
2813 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2009 : 07:57:35
|
quote:
Originally posted by trobrianders
Remain humble or go discover? Humility is portable.
I agree. |
|
|
|
danjersey
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
2813 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2009 : 10:01:36
|
quote:
Originally posted by Newo
quote:
darwin Posted - 08/09/2009 : 16:27:05
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by danjersey
I brought up the subject of cannibalism for it's grim illustration of what I consider an act of self preservation beyond reason. I could argue self defense in most cases but harvesting your own species for survival I can not.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why is cannibalism so beyond reason? Meat is meat. It's not unusual.
Damn right, everyone's got a line. Many well-conditioned Westerners find it genuinely repulsive that Chinese eat dogs while chicken seems to be okay.
--
There it is in a nut shell. Call me an old softy but I consider Humans to be special. I am not a chicken or a dog.
I wouldn't eat human flesh just as I wouldn't lay down with a beast. Just a few simple rules. |
|
|
|
trobrianders
> Teenager of the Year <
Papua New Guinea
3302 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2009 : 10:21:14
|
quote:
Originally posted by Newo
Many well-conditioned Westerners find it genuinely repulsive that...
Many well-conditioned Westerners find it genuinely repulsive that... a whole bunch of things.
Well we keep saying we do 
At least when the religious say they're disgusted they back it up with bodily function.
dan j is that helpful?
I'm still an anti-theist.
_______________
Ed is the hoo hoo |
|
|
|
danjersey
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
2813 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2009 : 10:37:31
|
helpful?
|
|
|
|
trobrianders
> Teenager of the Year <
Papua New Guinea
3302 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2009 : 22:51:54
|
Are we non-religious more reserved in our emotions? A non-religious widow may sniff but a religious widow will wail. Why do we non-religious act as though we have something to hide? Are we still ashamed for having turned our backs on god? Is that why we value irony so highly? Is it helpful to mention any of this?
_______________
Ed is the hoo hoo |
|
|
|
Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2009 : 00:19:37
|
quote:
danjersey
* Dog in the Sand *
Pitcairn Island
1506 Posts
Posted - 08/10/2009 : 10:01:36
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Newo
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
darwin Posted - 08/09/2009 : 16:27:05
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by danjersey
I brought up the subject of cannibalism for it's grim illustration of what I consider an act of self preservation beyond reason. I could argue self defense in most cases but harvesting your own species for survival I can not.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why is cannibalism so beyond reason? Meat is meat. It's not unusual.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Damn right, everyone's got a line. Many well-conditioned Westerners find it genuinely repulsive that Chinese eat dogs while chicken seems to be okay.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There it is in a nut shell. Call me an old softy but I consider Humans to be special. I am not a chicken or a dog.
I wouldn't eat human flesh just as I wouldn't lay down with a beast. Just a few simple rules.
If I'm so special and evolved, how come it's me who goes out to earn bread while my cat gets to spend the day lying on the couch, being petted and licking his anus?
--
Allen Ginsberg says you got no soul. The ancient Egyptians say you got seven of these bastards, and Pharaohs got fourteen, what they get for being Pharaohs. |
|
|
|
Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2009 : 00:26:20
|
I'd eat another human to survive, but I wouldn't kill them for food. I wouldn't have sex with an animal, but, if one of those green, sexy Star Trek aliens happened to make a pass at me, I doubt I'd say no.
I don't think atheists are more reserved - you could argue, why would they be? As far as they're concerned, they have more to lose in death. If I have religion-related shame, it's for my fellow humans who still believe in fairy stories.
Easy Easy Easy!! MicknPhil Marathon Lads Sign this petition |
|
|
|
danjersey
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
2813 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2009 : 08:31:57
|
quote:
Originally posted by trobrianders
Are we non-religious more reserved in our emotions? A non-religious widow may sniff but a religious widow will wail. Why do we non-religious act as though we have something to hide? Are we still ashamed for having turned our backs on god? Is that why we value irony so highly? Is it helpful to mention any of this?
I thought you meant that when the religious are disgusted they at least vomit. I would be interested in some theories on the gut reaction of gagging from the grotesque. I'm sure a human could be taught from birth to ignore what others consider awful. Nature vs nurture that sort of thing. |
|
|
|
danjersey
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
2813 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2009 : 08:46:45
|
One issue I take with religion is the alienating allegiance it demands from it's followers. That between parents and their children doctrine looms supreme. Some things just can't be said. The fragility of this agreement does more to undermine faith than affirm it.
|
|
|
|
trobrianders
> Teenager of the Year <
Papua New Guinea
3302 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2009 : 05:14:50
|
quote:
Originally posted by Newo
I find Hitchens' approach, while it had great parts, to be a little self-defeating to his own purpose, this kind of sensationalistic tone (religion born of terror etc.) would only alienate the many people who toy with religions (or mix and match from them) for the beautiful aspects they might contain. And it is these people Hitchens should be interested in reaching, it sure as hell isn't the guy with eyes rolled back in forehead saying you need to read the Bible because humans need an instruction manual just as a VCR does. (There's nothing you can do with religious zealots except give them as wide a berth as possible.) But Hitchens is Hitchens, and though he's funny when giving poor old Kissinger a good kicking, he's the kind of thinker where he has a hammer and everything looks like a nail.
About the Victorian brush, I didn't just have the aethyr in mind when I wrote that, but you can find the same views further afield too. I recommend Fritjof Capra's "The Tao of Physics", about the parallels between quantum physics and Oriental mysticism.
--
Allen Ginsberg says you got no soul. The ancient Egyptians say you got seven of these bastards, and Pharaohs got fourteen, what they get for being Pharaohs.
I wonder if his approach is as self-deafeating as you say. He's not looking for instant converts. Religion looks for instant conversion precluding all later doubt. Hitchens is looking to instill doubt which leads to conversion. Those who attend his meetings might not agree instantly but the next time they open a newspaper they may find themselves thinking twice. If Hitchens tends towards propagandising you have to accept he's in a war. His life has been threatened. These very moral men have told him what they would like to do to his wife and daugters. But more than that he sees the First Ammendment under real attack, backdoor creationism by way of intelligent design, creeping blasphemy law, the muslim bomb etc. and he knows where it's leading. Every democracy should tend towards tolerance and even appeasement (hoping for the best) until that becomes impossible. But every democracy should throw up figures like Hitchens (preparing for the worst) to take up the fight. It's a simple enough premise, 'We're giving away too much and they'll always want more.' We all knew that already. What we're waiting to know is when enough really is enough. Hitchens is sounding an alarm. Get ready, it's coming, it's here. That's all.
Fritjof Capra is what I'll come home to read after a good day keeping the zealots at bay.
And next morning if the husband is lazy to get out of bed again the wife might try different means. She might try using a sensationalist tone, she might try joking around, tickling and cajoling. One way or another the lazy lump is getting up. Or they lose everything!
_______________
Ed is the hoo hoo |
|
|
|
Jose Jones
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1758 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2009 : 15:43:04
|
soooo... ancient astronauts...
-----------------------
they were the heroes of old, men of renown. |
|
|
|
trobrianders
> Teenager of the Year <
Papua New Guinea
3302 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2009 : 01:54:46
|
quote:
Originally posted by Llamadance
I'd eat another human to survive, but I wouldn't kill them for food. I wouldn't have sex with an animal, but, if one of those green, sexy Star Trek aliens happened to make a pass at me, I doubt I'd say no.
Easy Easy Easy!! MicknPhil Marathon Lads Sign this petition
You sure pack a lot into a weekend llama.
So eating human flesh is ok, laying down with a beast generally is not. From that answer I can't tell. Is necrophilia in or out? Probably out, huh?
_______________
Ed is the hoo hoo |
|
|
|
darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5456 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2009 : 05:39:01
|
| Necrophilia should be out if you're planning on eating it. |
|
|
|
BLT
> Teenager of the Year <
South Sandwich Islands
4204 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2009 : 05:57:05
|
quote:
Originally posted by Llamadance
I'd eat another human to survive, but I wouldn't kill them for food. I wouldn't have sex with an animal, but, if one of those green, sexy Star Trek aliens happened to make a pass at me, I doubt I'd say no.
How about an Andorian?
Where do you draw the line? |
|
|
|
Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
|
|
darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5456 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2009 : 09:39:28
|
I vote Trill
 |
|
|
|
trobrianders
> Teenager of the Year <
Papua New Guinea
3302 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2009 : 09:51:59
|
GOD HATES TRILL FAGS!!!
_______________
Ed is the hoo hoo |
|
|
|
Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
|
|
BLT
> Teenager of the Year <
South Sandwich Islands
4204 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2009 : 10:51:26
|
You can have your alien life forms. I want me some Yeoman Rand.
The lowest forms of socializing:
3) Message boards
2) Mustard gas
1) Twitter |
|
|
|
Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2009 : 11:49:41
|
It wasn't too long ago that I heard about the copycat thesis.
Super interesting.
Is anyone fairly knowledgeable on this?
__________
Fuck off I got work to do. |
|
|
|
Jose Jones
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1758 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2009 : 16:32:10
|
do tell!
-----------------------
they were the heroes of old, men of renown. |
|
|
|
Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2009 : 02:23:30
|
I don't know much about it other than what I've just read in the last couple of minutes, but it seems possible given that Christianity usurped pagan festivals (easter, christmas) for its own ends.
Easy Easy Easy!! MicknPhil Marathon Lads Sign this petition |
|
|
|
trobrianders
> Teenager of the Year <
Papua New Guinea
3302 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2009 : 03:11:42
|
A bit cheap to call it a thesis. More like a Copycat Certainty given that plagiarism must have been an instinct, not a risk, before our era of rigourous verification. How do Christians ever react to the onslaught?
Chip Away Boy
_______________
Ed is the hoo hoo |
Edited by - trobrianders on 09/03/2009 00:22:54 |
|
|
|
Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2009 : 06:11:29
|
An instinct hardly makes it better - I guess they couldn't see that what was good for them then would help to undermine their religion later. Theory is probably a better term?
Onslaught? I think it's the other way around - even in supposedly non-denominational schools, kids come out thinking god made the world. It's either reinforced at home or the parents have to educate the children to another way of thinking (whatever that might be)
Easy Easy Easy!! MicknPhil Marathon Lads Sign this petition |
|
|
|
darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5456 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2009 : 07:06:08
|
Yeah, a few weeks ago I was giving the standard parent pep talk to my older kid and said, "everybody makes mistakes". My 6-year old (who has never been in a church) piped in with, "God doesn't make mistakes". I don't think he's being indoctrinated by the teachers, but by the other kids.
I also remember when I was a kid in 6th grade (probably have already told this story) The Gideons showed up at my school to pass out New Testaments. The kids were sent out of class to go get one. I refused and my teacher tried to talk me into it. And I remember prayers before football games, strangers asking me what church my family attend, ect. So, I'm not buying the persecution of Christians. |
|
|
|
trobrianders
> Teenager of the Year <
Papua New Guinea
3302 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2009 : 08:51:49
|
I remember all that; nervous teachers trying to maintain order through the singing of Onward Christian Soldiers. But that was a long time ago. It's tougher where you are than here in the UK. Do you see Christianity persisting or fading over time where you are?
_______________
Ed is the hoo hoo |
Edited by - trobrianders on 09/03/2009 00:32:53 |
|
|
|
danjersey
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
2813 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2009 : 16:47:02
|
Every year in catholic school my parish observed a week of UNICEF lunch, where a single cup of cooked rice was fed to each student. Their must have been some dissent from other kid's parents because I always had extra rice. Soon I was carrying packets of soy sauce with me in my pockets. My Mom kept these and other condiments in a coffee can on the hutch in our kitchen. I loved UNICEF week. No Reservations.
|
|
|
|
trobrianders
> Teenager of the Year <
Papua New Guinea
3302 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2009 : 01:08:26
|
quote:
Originally posted by darwin
Necrophilia should be out if you're planning on eating it.
Certainly if you're planning on dining at a restaurant. But it's okay if you're dining in, surely?
_______________
Ed is the hoo hoo |
|
|
|
trobrianders
> Teenager of the Year <
Papua New Guinea
3302 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2012 : 00:11:56
|
100 lashes if you're not dying of laughter
_______________
Ed is the hoo hoo |
|
|
|
pot
> Teenager of the Year <
Iceland
3910 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2012 : 00:36:12
|
| Atheists are such douche bags |
|
|
|
trobrianders
> Teenager of the Year <
Papua New Guinea
3302 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2012 : 00:46:57
|
This is my favorite of all the threads I started. I'd really be grateful if you didn't post here pot. Thank you very much for your cooperation.
_______________
Ed is the hoo hoo |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
Had just about enough of god!
