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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
 Posted - 08/25/2007 : 21:16:54
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Interesting recent conversation with 2 friends. One said things keep worsening for our species -- societal niceties are breaking down, hell handbasket. The other disagreed: "We used to throw people to the lions. Mankind's becoming more civilized and things are getting better." I'm not sure what to think.
Your thoughts?
I got some heaven in my head
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Daisy Girl
~ Abstract Brain ~
Belize
5305 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2007 : 21:53:17
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I don't know what to think either. My gut reaction though is to say that mankind hasn't changed. I can think of very good examples of progress that has come about in the last several years (e.g. the womens and civil rights movements), but then on the same hand I can also think of examples of why things are not getting better (e.g. the environment and the war in Iraq).
bluefinger |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2007 : 00:23:35
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| i think discontinuing throwing Christians to the lions was a step backward for mankind |
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Arm Arm Arm
* Dog in the Sand *
1037 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2007 : 00:52:32
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I think it's about time we started throwing the lions to the Christians. Or at least rolling them to the Christians.
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2007 : 01:02:22
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| I think we're being nicer to one another (kind of like people in big cities have to have more of a live and let live attitude), but our capacity to do damage each other and the planet is increasing more rapidly. |
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Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2007 : 01:02:45
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I think we've kind of reached a peak, over the next hundred years things are going to get pretty hard for us. If climate predictions come true, then there will be huge environmental pressures which will most likely mean millions of deaths directly, and probably many indirectly (due to war and social breakdown caused by the changing climate).
It's like the classic foxes and rabbits model, because there's enough rabbits (fuel, lebensraum, food) we're mostly happy and civilized, as soon as these start to fail (which they will, climate change will displace millions of people and make farming more difficult) then us, the foxes, will start to die.
oh, I'm a happy man today.
No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God George Bush snr |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2007 : 01:33:31
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Shouldn't that be:
"Point missed with obsession over improvement. Humanity lies in the dilemmas face we. Hmmm." |
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PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2007 : 04:30:43
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as well as missing the point, it may actually be the kind of regressive attitude we are trying to avoid.
[or maybe not, just tried to come up with something pseudo-intellectual.]
"Idiot" is just her sig. |
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misleadtheworld
* Dog in the Sand *
United Kingdom
1222 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2007 : 13:49:24
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I don't believe society moves forward. Technology moves forward, but I don't really think there is a way you can say a society moves forward (or backwards). Yesterdays norms are tomorrows taboos, and vice versa. It's a bit like art and music really. Just because Damien Hirst and Pixies came way after say, Marcel Duchamp and Bach, does not mean they are any move advanced.
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s_wrenn
* Dog in the Sand *
Ireland
1851 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2007 : 14:23:58
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Mankind’s goal of fucking cute blonde teens in the ass had been achieved! Huzzah!
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2007 : 14:34:02
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quote:
Originally posted by s_wrenn
Mankind’s goal of fucking cute blonde teens in the ass had been achieved! Huzzah!
[mom joke withheld] |
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2007 : 14:46:33
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quote:
Originally posted by misleadtheworld
I don't believe society moves forward. Technology moves forward, but I don't really think there is a way you can say a society moves forward (or backwards).
Excellent point.
Further, I'd appreciate a species overview.... something like, we humans have been around a long time and we haven't evolved physically (still sprouting the same number of limbs as 10,000 years ago) or emotionally -- we still pretty much care only for ourselves but hide that behind societal niceties.
I got some heaven in my head
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2007 : 15:01:00
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quote:
Originally posted by kathryn
Excellent point.
Further, I'd appreciate a species overview.... something like, we humans have been around a long time and we haven't evolved physically (still sprouting the same number of limbs as 10,000 years ago) or emotionally -- we still pretty much care only for ourselves but hide that behind societal niceties.
I got some heaven in my head
As any species should. Care only about yourself and others that share the same genes as you. {I'm boring even myself} |
Edited by - darwin on 08/26/2007 15:03:14 |
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2007 : 15:11:57
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Would you darwin or anybody else say that it's neither cynicism nor pessimism but fact to state that humans are self-centered underneath a veneer of politeness?
You find this boring? I think it's interesting, mostly because we go around pretending the above isnt' the case. By "care only for ourselves" I mean in our day-to-day interactions with other people, not in some larger ecological context.
I got some heaven in my head
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BLT
> Teenager of the Year <
South Sandwich Islands
4204 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2007 : 15:30:22
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quote:
Originally posted by kathryn
Would you darwin or anybody else say that it's neither cynicism nor pessimism but fact to state that humans are self-centered underneath a veneer of politeness?
I would call that a generalization.
Knob head. |
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2007 : 15:37:04
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Fair enough. Would you say it applies in varying degrees from one individual human being to another?
I got some heaven in my head
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HeywoodJablome
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1485 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2007 : 15:46:47
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I think nature let mankind evolve because she wanted plastic supermarket bags and now that we've given them to her she's gently phasing us out.
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OFFICIAL INTERNET TOUGH GUY |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2007 : 15:48:16
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I would say (and I'm saying I'm boring myself because I feel like I've said this many times and people should skipping my comments) that natural selection favors individuals that have behaviors that favor their self interests over those of others. The exception being kin, because they share some of the same genes. Richard Dawkins best explains all of this in The Selfish Gene.
But that's all a simplification. It can be favorable in terms of natural selection to be nice to other people 1) if people you help are more likely to help you when you need help (reciprocal altruism), 2) if you're going see them again and they're going to remember you're a jerk if you act like a jerk and somehow punish you, 3) likewise if people talk and point out to each other that you're a jerk, and 4) connected to #2 and #3 being a jerk hurts your status and costs you things like community goods, mates (hubba hubba), and positions of power.
And none of that is specific to humans. We're shaped by natural selection just like all other species (maybe with exceptions for species with different genetic systems). We're typically jerks, but all animals (and plants and fungi and microbes) should be. |
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2007 : 15:50:45
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Thanks, darwin. I have read your comments in the past, but this time it stuck. I feel better already.
I got some heaven in my head
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2007 : 16:37:15
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When it comes to the condition of mankind, it’s hard to know what the standard is. One could say that the options run from one pole of collective satisfaction or happiness to another pole of biological viability. It used to be that the two were almost identical, in that humanity, as a species or as a set of individuals, was happiest when it was doing what was best for itself biologically. Nowadays that isn’t quite so clear. One could easily imagine the human race, or at least some of its cultures, happying itself right out of existence. Many of us, particularly in the West, expend more energy and thought tickling ourselves than we do securing the future of, yes, our DNA. Not meaning to turn this into an adversarial, political thread, but sometimes I think Islam or some similarly base ideology could triumph uber alles simply because it keeps its eye on the prize, that of replication, both genetically and culturally. We in the West are so good at having fun that just about everything else takes a back seat. Is that sustainable?
It’s funny to think that in deeply significant respects we stand at the pinnacle of human history, and yet the last century has been the bloodiest ever. The other day I was reading a blogger who made a convincing case that the 20th Century was just a warm-up. Some people think that the barbarians are gearing up for another historic run at us. When I look out over the next fifty or hundred years the best I can see is some kind of dystopia along the lines of the second half of “A Clockwork Orange” or maybe even “Soylent Green”. More likely is something like the worst of the “Mad Max” trilogy. Or maybe “Brave New World”. Brave indeed. I need another beer.
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The King Of Karaoke
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
3759 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2007 : 17:09:45
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Supposedly at present we burn four calories of natural energy (oil, gas, etc) for every calorie of food energy produced. At no time in (prior to cheap oil) history has that been possible. If you expended more energy to get food than the food provided you would eventually die. We would not be able to run at the kind of deficit we currently do if it were not for the availability of cheap oil. If the "peak oil" theory is correct we will begin to see the detrimental effects of running at this deficit starting between 2010 and 2015. I believe that the peak oil crisis is the root cause of everything going on in the middle east today.
That being said I would like to believe much of humanity has the deisire to progress to a point where we could all live in harmony. Unfortunately, not only will it never happen, I don't believe that would ever be allowed to happen by the governments that call the shots. 6.5 billion people and growing. The earth can't keep supporting these numbers. particularly if we insist on running it on oil. Fresh water is also an issue.
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http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/ |
Edited by - The King Of Karaoke on 08/26/2007 17:10:00 |
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2007 : 17:24:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
It’s funny to think that in deeply significant respects we stand at the pinnacle of human history
Indeed.
There's gotta be/should be a term for the phenomenon of man thinking he's on the edge of history, the most advanced, developed, blah blah whatever, imagining himself removed from the quote horrors of history, but smack dab against a century that saw 3 genocides I can think of off the top of my tired head.
quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
the last century has been the bloodiest ever.
Even bloodier than your run of the mill Crusades century?
quote:
Originally posted by The King Of Karaoke
The earth can't keep supporting these numbers. particularly if we insist on running it on oil. Fresh water is also an issue.
Yeah, water's another scary one. Interesting that you guys are taking in on the ecological level, war, etc. I was thinking in terms of people smiling at you while their hands are behind their back sharpening a knife (sorry....recently divorced) so these are interesting perspectives. Thanks.
I got some heaven in my head
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2007 : 18:55:22
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always love a good erebus post.
not to sound like i'm trying win the Bleak Outlook Award©, but after spending some time in national parks recently and getting to see fossils and all the previous layers of life that have existed on this planet, it seems obvious that we're just another layer that will eventually be wiped out and replaced by something else, completely. that's not to say that we shouldn't try our best to make it a better place for everyone now while we're here, but beyond all the wars and population problems, at some point a volcano is going to erupt, or a giant meteorite will hit the planet and everyone will either die instantly or have a long, drawn-out death fighting over the last remaining pieces of food. and any human beings still alive will be forced to evolve into ungerground dwelling creatures, like in C.H.U.D. and some other creatures will come up and take over and another layer will be added to the fossil record. not that that's necessarily a bleak thing. but i think humans sometimes have such a self-centered view of themselves, as being the center of the universe when, in the grand scheme, we're just another chapter in the earth's history
for now though it's nice to be living in sunny Southern California. i need another beer
"I am a troll.. and a fag." -LBF |
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jimmy
= Cult of Ray =
USA
876 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2007 : 19:21:57
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Yeah floop, we're a layer, but a pretty good layer. I think something like Oscar Wilde's Picture of Dorian Gray makes up for all the bad things other people have done.
check out my friend's paintings at http://myspace.com/landspeedsong |
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2007 : 19:59:06
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quote:
Originally posted by floop
not to sound like i'm trying win the Bleak Outlook Award©, but .... at some point a volcano is going to erupt, or a giant meteorite will hit the planet and everyone will either die instantly or have a long, drawn-out death fighting over the last remaining pieces of food. and any human beings still alive will be forced to evolve into ungerground dwelling creatures
Cormac Mccarthy won the Pulitzer Prize writing a book about that. It's called The Road. Pretty damned good reading. Also very bleak.
I got some heaven in my head
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Edited by - kathryn on 08/26/2007 19:59:31 |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2007 : 21:55:20
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quote:
Originally posted by kathryn
Even bloodier than your run of the mill Crusades century?
I was guessing that per person the proportion of people killed by wars was less than previous centuries. So, I was googling and didn't find any numbers, but I did find this. It is estimated that in the 20th century that about 42 million people were killed by wars. In comparison, 170 to 360 million are estimated to have been killed by genocide or democide (primarily the Nazi, the Soviets, the Khmer Rouge).
Elsewhere I've seen articles claiming that the number of people killed by wars is MUCH higher than the number of people killed by the actual fighting. The displacement of people, the disruption of food, clean water, and medical care, and stress kills a shocking number of civilians. So, I don't know if that 42 million is just the fatalities of soldiers or everyone. |
Edited by - darwin on 08/26/2007 23:22:09 |
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hammerhands
* Dog in the Sand *
Canada
1594 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2007 : 22:10:19
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Little Black Francis
> Teenager of the Year <
3648 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2007 : 23:58:43
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quote:
Originally posted by hammerhands
the black death dick banana makes a good case for the Golden Age
fuck this |
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shineoftheever
> Teenager of the Year <
Canada
4307 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2007 : 11:50:46
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quote:
Originally posted by floop
i think discontinuing throwing Christians to the lions was a step backward for mankind
that's a pretty bold statement. do you really? a true roman to the end anthonius? capital "C" though? a true anti-Christian would have left it lower case.
The waxworks were an immensely eloquent dissertation on the wonderful ordinariness of mankind. |
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The King Of Karaoke
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
3759 Posts |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
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PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2007 : 12:33:27
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yeah, how did we get from mankind to americans
"Idiot" is just her sig. |
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The King Of Karaoke
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
3759 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2007 : 12:39:48
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I'm fairly sure Americans make up a portion of mankind. A really fucked up portion. Their elected leaders are causing a lot of the problems with mankind today.
Steve I read you paper I'm waiting for a some help with a couple parts of it.
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When Will Americans Have Had Enough? - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P682rGIhZwI
http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/
"The use of 'Conspiracy Theory' as a derogatory term or epithet, is something the propagandists have perfected over the decades. It is a useful tool for eliminating articulate dissent, and other points of view and information that might be inconvenient for a policy agenda."
- Chris Sanders, Political Economist Sanders Research Assoc. |
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Kirk
= Cult of Ray =
USA
633 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2007 : 11:31:20
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| Generally, people are good. A small number of them are demostrating or convincing everyone the contrary. |
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BLT
> Teenager of the Year <
South Sandwich Islands
4204 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2007 : 11:41:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Kirk
Generally, people are good. A small number of them are demostrating or convincing everyone the contrary.
That's exactly the way I feel.
Wish I could have expressed it so well. |
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Joey Joe Jo Jr. Chabadoo
* Dog in the Sand *
1079 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2007 : 03:31:19
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In those dark days the only thing that remains is HOPE.
We cannot change the world, but we can start to change it.
Confidence and Faith to the inner God is the key (of B).
Love and its expression is the chant of salvation.
Jesus love you if you do.
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your opinion about mankind
