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KimStanleyRobinson
* Dog in the Sand *
1972 Posts |
 Posted - 04/16/2007 : 11:34:01
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NPR says 29 dead, 20 injured.
Anyone close by?
Andy? |
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Carl
- A 'Fifth' Catholic -
Ireland
11546 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2007 : 13:48:30
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| Horrific. There's got to be proper meassures taken to prevent these kind of situations arising. |
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Jefrey
= Cult of Ray =
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2007 : 14:09:56
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I don't know what measures could be taken. VA Tech is a huge place and it's pretty remote. There are over 100 buildings on a 2600 acre campus in the mountains.
It's pretty freaky to see the coverage. I lived and worked there for a summer and had many friends that went there. It was a favorite road trip in college, so I know all the locations they are showing very well.
== jeffamerica == |
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KimStanleyRobinson
* Dog in the Sand *
1972 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2007 : 14:13:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Little Black Francis
I'm an hour away. I know a bunch of people who go there, but I don't know anything. Apparently he did all that with 9-mm handgun and a .22-caliber pistol, so that says to me that he probalby had military training.
Mijn vriendin kan geen orgasme krijgen
fingers crossed for you and yours.
Carl, apparently the best preventative for the bulk of this would have been for the Va Tech authorities to lock the whole campus down after the first shooting at 7:15, but they didn't. They waited till shots were fired at Norris Hall before sending out an email.
an email. |
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Jefrey
= Cult of Ray =
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2007 : 14:48:37
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I'd like to see the facts come out. I think everyone thinks it's weird that they "unlocked" the campus after the first shooting. Maybe they thought the guy was already dead or something? Maybe there were 2 guys? It seems that someone thought it was all over.
And what did you want them to do, use the campus PA and air raid sirens? The kids knew something was going on, and were in their rooms, where they all have email. It's the quickest way to communicate en mass. Should they have given everyone a personal phone call?
Not trying to be an ass, but what we still don't know what happened, and I don't think every place in the world has a system in place to prevent and communicate that a madman is running around randomly slaughtering people. It could happen anywhere, any time, and no one could really prevent it.
== jeffamerica == |
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Jefrey
= Cult of Ray =
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2007 : 15:03:38
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OK, now that I read the latest on the story, I still don't know how anyone would predict that this person was going to go to another building and start opening fire on people. Even if they had broadcasted it on a PA, the guy was still on campus and in a building. If he was hell bent on killing a lot of people, would it have helped? It might have been worse, who knows.
It's a terrible tragedy and I think trying to blame anyone but the maniac for what happened isn't really helping. I'm sure every authority involved feels sick about and are already questioning their own decisions.
== jeffamerica == |
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Carl
- A 'Fifth' Catholic -
Ireland
11546 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2007 : 15:13:59
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| Yeah, it's strange they didn't lock the place down immediately. But then I suppose we don't have the full picture yet. It's scary to think of kids around America wondering "Will it happen at my school?" Not that it's happening every other day, but once or twice a year is bad enough. Watched a thought-provoking BBC News report earlier, it's frightening how many of these incidents have taken place in the last ten years. Apparently, there are 200 million firearms in ownership in the US. Also, the previous government administration apparently failed to renew a law to tighten gun control. Virginia supposedly has the most lax gun laws in America. The legal drinking age for most states is 21, I don't know the legal age, but it seems like an 18 year old can carry a gun in most places. Watching a clip of Charlton Heston delievering his "cold, dead hands" spiel, I just thought, "You idiot". You can argue about how it's people, not guns, that kill, but would so many people die in these kind of incidents if the perpetrators could only get theirs hands on a baseball bat or something? Of course, the issue isn't all that simple, but it's seems like these tragedies get forgotten and the law remains the same. |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2007 : 15:25:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Carl
Also, the previous government administration apparently failed to renew a law to tighten gun control.
If you're referring to the assault weapon ban that wasn't renewed by a Republican congress. "Previous government administration" to me lays the blame on Clinton which isn't correct. Also, today's events didn't involve an assault weapon, I believe.
Shutdown - even if the police thought they had the shooter from the first event it seems odd to me that classes weren't canceled. Who should be required to teach and attend classes when people were murdered on campus earlier in the day? Some kind of information fuck up must have happened. |
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mosleyk
= Cult of Ray =
USA
607 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2007 : 15:27:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Little Black Francis
I'm an hour away. I know a bunch of people who go there, but I don't know anything. Apparently he did all that with 9-mm handgun and a .22-caliber pistol, so that says to me that he probalby had military training.
Mijn vriendin kan geen orgasme krijgen
I heard VA tech and instantly thought of you LBF.
I hope nobody you know were caught in the attach, and my prayers go out to everyone that was.
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Carl
- A 'Fifth' Catholic -
Ireland
11546 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2007 : 16:00:01
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin
If you're referring to the assault weapon ban that wasn't renewed by a Republican congress. "Previous government administration" to me lays the blame on Clinton which isn't correct.
Yeah, I thought I heard wrong! |
Edited by - Carl on 04/16/2007 16:00:14 |
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BLT
> Teenager of the Year <
South Sandwich Islands
4204 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2007 : 16:08:47
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Ohh, why didn't the government save us??? [rolls eyes]
 "Join the Cult of Bluto and become an abusive prick" |
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Jefrey
= Cult of Ray =
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2007 : 18:53:37
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I still don't know what else the school authorities could have done. The dude went into the building, chained the doors shut, and started doing his thing.
I don't think there's any way you can lock down a campus that big in 2 hours. They thought he he fled the campus.
It is pretty questionable that they allowed classes to continue. Still, he could've just walked into the cafeteria, chained the closest door and started firing. No warning in the world can really stop anyone determined to do something like this.
== jeffamerica == |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2007 : 19:10:15
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A campus can be closed in 2 hours. They have emergency plans and police departments and classes can be canceled quickly. Call schools, which call departments, which call faculty. News spreads fast. Every student checks their email and cell phone every 10 minutes. Whether it would have prevented the second shooting I don't know, but I think most campuses would have been quickly shut down after the first incident. As I said before I think we're going to hear that somewhere along the line the information didn't get passed up to the administration quickly enough (or someone was asleep at the wheel).
Despite all of that the shooter is obviously the one to blame. |
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Jefrey
= Cult of Ray =
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2007 : 23:10:17
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OK, well call it an hour or hour and a half. The first incident happens. It takes 10-15 minutes for someone in authority to be notified. The police are called. Authorities are having breakfast or not on campus or whatever. So it takes...say 30 minutes for them to decide it was a domestic incident and the culprit has fled. The police are investigating. They have no reason to believe that someone is going to pull off the hugest shooting rampage in US history in about an hour and a half. Why would they?
So they get someone to put out an email and start calling the RA's, which as you point out darwin, should spread the word pretty fast. Problem is, it's still only 8:00 am and people are still driving in to campus, or walking to class, or whatever.
I don't know...I don't want to argue about it any more. I come here to talk about music for escape, not violence and politics. It just rubs me the wrong way that people are trying to blame some campus administrator for an unimaginable act of violence as if he were to blame somehow and the outcome could have been different. Clearly this person was bent on killing a lot of people and then himself today. Maybe 10 lives could have been saved. Maybe it could have been worse if they backed him into a corner, who knows? They start a panic and maybe he ends up in the cafeteria killing 50 people!
I just don't think it's helpful or fair to try to blame anyone but the killer for this. I'm sure the campus administration is losing plenty of sleep without people trying to blame them for what happened.
== jeffamerica == |
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Stuart
- The Clopser -
China
2291 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 04:27:43
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Well, after they received a couple of bomb threats in the past few weeks, you'd have thought that maybe they might gone to work with a little more urgency.
Because your candle burned too bright, that I almost forgot it was twilight |
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Homers_pet_monkey
= Official forum monkey =
United Kingdom
17125 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 05:00:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Jefrey
They have no reason to believe that someone is going to pull off the hugest shooting rampage in US history in about an hour and a half. Why would they?
== jeffamerica ==
Ooh I don't know....because it's America?
OK, a tad unfair perhaps, but I agree with Darwin that more could have been done. I agree with you that it may not have helped in the end, but that's not the point.
I also agree though that it's unfair to put too much emphasis on whoever fucked up at this time (aside from the gunman), but on the other hand, there has to be some review of their procedures for such emergencies (and they should have them). You can't just say it's all down to the gunman and hope it doesn't happen again.
If they could have prevented one of the deaths, then it would have been worth it.
 I'd walk her everyday, into a shady place
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 08:37:49
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Gun Control doesn't work.
This coming from a Canadian whose country has had their share of shooting spree incidents.
I know its human nature to want to lay blame but I think Chris Rock said it best when he said "Whatever happened to Crazy?"
And you can't ever be fully prepared for crazy.
The part I don't understand is the perps lack of focus on what their target really is. I've heard this guy thought his gf was cheating on him, so he shot them both. But why the other 30 people? In Montreal Marc Lapine did not like feminists. Not all the women he shot were feminists. Did all the victims at Columbine bully those 2 boys? And so on. Why make random innocent people pay the price for a lack of power and control in your own personal private relationships? I guess I previously answered my own question, crazy.
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For Chrissakes have a cup of tea. |
Edited by - Carolynanna on 04/17/2007 11:42:58 |
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Broken Face
-= Forum Pistolero =-
USA
5155 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 09:09:08
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One of the victims lived less than a mile from me in NJ. I don't know him or his family, but i'm sure i know someone who does.
I wish there was a simple answer to this type of situation, but unfortunately one does not exist.
-Brian - http://bvsrant.blogspot.com |
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fbc
-= Modulator =-
United Kingdom
4903 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 10:18:51
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The image I can't get out of my head is of an Asian boy handcuffed/under police guard sitting against a wall after the massacre.
Whatever happened to him? I can't find anything related to this chap. |
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mrgrieves1971
= Cult of Ray =
USA
544 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 11:35:21
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| Unfortunately, in a free society, there is really not much you can do to prevent this. |
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coastline
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
3111 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 11:42:49
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quote:
Originally posted by mrgrieves1971
Unfortunately, in a free society, there is really not much you can do to prevent this.
You're sort of right. It's true that there's no law we can pass to prevent this kind of thing, but surely there are things a society can do to be more compassionate and decent, which would lead to fewer of these events. It starts at the personal level: Let this be a reminder to be a more decent person in all aspects of your life. Sounds hokey, but it's probably more effective than changing gun laws.
 Please pardon me, for these my wrongs. |
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 11:48:21
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Hmmmm, I think God (or any religion for that matter) already tried that.....
It wasn't that effective either.
__________
For Chrissakes have a cup of tea. |
Edited by - Carolynanna on 04/17/2007 12:05:09 |
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coastline
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
3111 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 12:08:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Carolynanna
Hmmmm, I think God (or any religion for that matter) already tried that.....
It wasn't that effective either.
So we just give up, then?
Please pardon me, for these my wrongs. |
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 12:15:14
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No but effective solutions will not be that simplistic.
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For Chrissakes have a cup of tea. |
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TRANSMARINE
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
2002 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 12:48:03
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33 only? Should have been more, judging by the overblown response to this whole thing. But that's just my view. Get back to class, and go back to work.
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His name is Dalton. He's got a degree in philosophy.
-bRIAN |
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Carl
- A 'Fifth' Catholic -
Ireland
11546 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 14:05:16
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| The proliferation of guns and the ease with which they can be obtained is at least part of the problem. |
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TRANSMARINE
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
2002 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 15:07:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Little Black Francis
quote:
Originally posted by TRANSMARINE
33 only? Should have been more, judging by the overblown response to this whole thing. But that's just my view. Get back to class, and go back to work.
Overblown? I hope you are kidding, because that is a really terrible thing to say, and an even worse way of thinking. The Imus thing was overblown. The mass murder of a bunch of innocent people in an everyday community- the very next day let's just all forget about it and move on. Your view is cold-blooded and repulsive.
Mijn vriendin kan geen orgasme krijgen
Was just giving my view...not trying to offend...this stuff just doesn't phase me. It's bound to happen. And it did. And it will again.
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His name is Dalton. He's got a degree in philosophy.
-bRIAN |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 15:50:06
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quote:
Originally posted by TRANSMARINE
Was just giving my view...not trying to offend...this stuff just doesn't phase me. It's bound to happen. And it did. And it will again.
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His name is Dalton. He's got a degree in philosophy.
-bRIAN
Really? No intent to shock or piss off people? |
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TRANSMARINE
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
2002 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 16:13:44
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No. Should I have intent?
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His name is Dalton. He's got a degree in philosophy.
-bRIAN |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 16:20:04
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| Give me a break. I don't think any rational person goes into a public forum and says "Hey, only 33 people got murdered. Get over it! Go back to school." without the knowledge that they're going to cause a stir and draw attention to themselves. |
Edited by - darwin on 04/17/2007 16:21:31 |
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coastline
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
3111 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 16:26:57
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Mission accomplished. Move on. It's not really worth another post, if you're considering it, Tranny.
Please pardon me, for these my wrongs. |
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Jefrey
= Cult of Ray =
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 17:13:10
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quote:
Originally posted by coastline
quote:
Originally posted by mrgrieves1971
Unfortunately, in a free society, there is really not much you can do to prevent this.
You're sort of right. It's true that there's no law we can pass to prevent this kind of thing, but surely there are things a society can do to be more compassionate and decent, which would lead to fewer of these events. It starts at the personal level: Let this be a reminder to be a more decent person in all aspects of your life. Sounds hokey, but it's probably more effective than changing gun laws.
Please pardon me, for these my wrongs.
I think that's noble, but this is a society of immigrants, many of which hold onto their cultures for a generation or so. I had a close friend growing up who was Chinese, and his father was first generation Chinese, didn't speak English at all, and ran his household like a lord and master. I couldn't believe how he treated his family, it was so different from the typical "American" culture I was used to in 95% of the families I knew. The kid had to face pressures I never dreamed of. I get the feeling that nothing would ever be good enough for his father.
I don't mean to generalize - this is just one experience. But we hear about the high suicide rate among the youth in Japan, which is in large part due to the cultural pressures they have that are different from other countries.
My point is that we don't know ye what drove this guy to do what he did. Was it his family? Society? Sure, we can try to be more decent to each other, but there are some cultures out there that are less accepting of things. I knew a guy that ended up killing himself because he was gay and his family's culture didn't accept him. Horrible, but true.
== jeffamerica == |
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TRANSMARINE
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
2002 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 18:06:15
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quote:
Originally posted by coastline
Mission accomplished. Move on. It's not really worth another post, if you're considering it, Tranny.
Please pardon me, for these my wrongs.
Arrrgh. I have considered it. Perhaps I should reevaluate my original statement...or start again in an expanded form. I don't mean to cause a stir or an argument. I was meerly stating how I felt. Attention to something of this nature is magnitude compared to the event. There is nothing we are going to be able to do as humans EVER to predict or erase a mass murder...however, we are wonderful at saying "oh I suspected it" or "well we did tell him to get help" after the fact, and then holding ourselves responsible in our heads and lighting candles and having big group hugs and tears. You would think a million people died in this VA Tech thing, what with all the hoopla. And people all over the world will feel somehow stitched to it. I guess that's fine and all...I just don't feel it. If that makes me irrational, well so be it. At least I wont lose any sleep. I'm just being practical within my make-up and true to myself. Would I feel differently if I were close to a victim of this thing? I'm sure I would. I'm sure I would be shocked, saddened, and go through a period of mourning. But this is not the case. And I feel nothing from it, except strange that so many people disconnected from it are so moved by it, and seeming as though they are gaining or transcending through sloppy emotion over it. The surviving victims and their loved ones are currently in a hellish nightmare and I would hope for them nothing but a speedy recovery and a heart full of good memories. But we all have to keep going on. And everyone knows this...it's not something I have come up with, and never did I think it was. The thing that somewhat shocks me is always the murderer and his world. I am always more interested in that part of crimes such as this. And I always try to put myself in their shoes (based on the little info, if any, that ever comes to light regarding motivation). What must their feelings be? Some say they have none, being sociopaths or psychopaths...sometimes they say themselves they have no feelings. I don't believe that. I think the suppression of emotion is so strong, it often becomes a false reality of being emotionless. I think we all are aware of that to some degree. Turning something on and off. Maybe not to the level of a murderer such as the shooter we're speaking of. What are they thinking before, during, and after? And then to end themselves I think denotes a bank of feelings. Perhaps only concerning their own selves...nevertheless, fear or anticipation of responsibility enables the final trigger pull. All this is insanity and horror unbridled that can never be fully self accepted (I don't think) and can never be shared in an attempt for help. Who would be willing to be a friend to someone who admits "look...I really, REALLY have a plan to extinguish as many peers, or even strangers, as possible on April 16th. This is my plan (...), this is my reason (...), etc."? This person (we will use the word 'abnormal', but we wont judge) stands no chance either way. This person is on a totally different track running next to someone else, and perhaps these are correct actions for them to commit. There will always be people in danger from such a person as this. It just is. Now I'm going all over the place. My initial post was not to shock or make light or to piss off. I guess I felt, as an open thread, I could openly chime in and say I think all this is ridiculous without having to think much about it. Now that I see people have been repulsed by my view, I have thought about it. I guess, as a pretty honest guy, the only thing I find upsetting about it is that the murderer had no choice but to cause all this chaos. If that makes people coarse with me, well, what can I say? I surely wouldn't want to make something up. We just have to keep doing what we do...and not sit around and be shocked, scared, upset, and suprised. Things are always going to come out of left-field. Don't be suprised.
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His name is Dalton. He's got a degree in philosophy.
-bRIAN |
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awestruck
= Cult of Ray =
USA
377 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 19:44:26
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Alright, I agree with you Transmarine. Last night as I watched coverage over the shooting, I was struck by the media frenzy that was desperately trying to find someone in our coverage area that has a tie with ANYONE that attends VT. They were able to talk to a grad student there from our area. I felt sickened that people died and that the killer was a kid himself. I am sickened by the fact that the media enables people (who have no ties or vague ties from the past to VT) to make this tragedy about them instead of the real victims of this crime. I attend college and I would hope they would cancel classes if anything violent happens, such as the 7:15 am shootings. All I can say is arguing over "what should ofs" is redundant. It's done. We need to learn from this tragedy and hope this does not happen again. I think it is sad that this guy (the killer) was writing papers of such disturbing matters that his professors reported he needed to seek help because they were worried about his writings. He somehow fell through the cracks of the system. The system failed him as much as it failed his victims. I will end by saying that I pray for all the families of the victims and I pray for the family of the killer.
I hope this does not offend anyone, I am merely demonstrating another view of this tragedy.
Oh and violence goes on all the time on college campuses. This brings media attention because it is something right out of an action film. Unfortunately, violence sells and the media puts it out there because humans have a fascination with the gory. Or at least it seems like Americans have that fascination.
Favorite Quote: awestruck is a she, she's a she. -trobrianders |
Edited by - awestruck on 04/17/2007 19:52:37 |
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BLT
> Teenager of the Year <
South Sandwich Islands
4204 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 20:04:15
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The news media shoves it down our throats so much that I'm already tired of hearing about it. These days it seems people can't even wait until the bodies are cold before demanding to know how it could have been prevented and to begin forwarding their agenda (i.e. gun control). I find that to be disrespectful to those who died.
Not to minimize the tragedy, but the murder of thirty-some people would have been a typical day in Baghdad.
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Edited by - BLT on 04/17/2007 20:08:10 |
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coastline
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
3111 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 20:23:35
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That was a very gracious post, Tranny. I was starting to wonder if you were just another jackass trying to get wise on the ol' fb.net forum, but I think once you thought your way through this thing, you discovered your compassion. It really is a huge deal, and I'm glad you figured that out.
And yes, let's jump straight to blaming "the media," folks. That should help.
Please pardon me, for these my wrongs. |
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Va Tech
