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Ziggy
* Dog in the Sand *
United Kingdom
2463 Posts |
 Posted - 01/12/2007 : 17:54:56
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| Carl, the 'Crimes Against Music' thread is elsewhere! |
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pixiestu
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2564 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2007 : 18:07:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Carl
Whoever writes Nickelback's songs.
What? He's so good that you don't even know his name?
"The arc of triumph" |
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Jefrey
= Cult of Ray =
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2007 : 18:32:27
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quote:
Originally posted by two reelers
quote:
Originally posted by Jefrey
Paul Simon, Paul McCartney, Howe Gelb, Robert Smith
paul mccartney ?????? are you joking ????
he can only rhyme house with mouse, and that's it. he is not a songwriter - he has absolutely nothing to express. zero.
"Interesting" take. Of course John Lennon had a big hand in many of his hits, sure. But I'd consider the Beatles and Pixies as probably the 2 most influential bands in rock history (as in influencing/inspiring other musicians to pick up a guitar, write songs, and make music).
Band On the Run, Jet, Mull of Kintyre, Let Me Roll It, Maybe I'm Amazed, Live and Let Die...
I could do without Spies Like Us. Or Ebony and Ivory. Oh, you're right, it's all crap.
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jeffamerica
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Brank_Flack
* Dog in the Sand *
Canada
1017 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2007 : 20:30:10
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| John Lennon, Kristin Hersh, Kurt Cobain |
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coastline
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
3111 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2007 : 20:44:20
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Mrs. coastline asked me to mention Tori Amos. I sort of agree.
 And aren't you havin' fun? |
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kfs
= Cult of Ray =
USA
889 Posts |
Posted - 01/15/2007 : 07:49:40
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| Neil Young, anyone? |
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coastline
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
3111 Posts |
Posted - 01/15/2007 : 09:09:38
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Neil Young indeed. Frank Zappa, too.
Somebody please recommend me a couple good Kristin Hersh albums. I have "Hips & Makers," and I like it, but nothing on it screamed Great Songwriter. I do like, though, how she used the word "dipshit" in a song. Hardly anyone uses that word in their lyrics, and they really should more often.
And aren't you havin' fun? |
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jediroller
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1718 Posts |
Posted - 01/15/2007 : 09:20:27
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Coastline: there's a new Kristin Hersh album coming next month, called "Learn To Sing Like a Star". It's as good an opportunity as any to give her another chance. Failing that, I would recommend getting her 2001 album "Sunny Border Blue".
And let's not forget that fine examples of the lady's songwriting are also to be found in the works of Throwing Muses and 50 Foot Wave. Of the former, I'd personally recommend getting "In a Doghouse", "The Real Ramona" and "Limbo". The latter have released a mini-album called "Free Music", which can be downloaded for, well, free, from http://www.throwingmusic.com.
I'd also like to add Vic Chesnutt to my list.
free music | Blackolero | Frank Black & Pixies Tributes |
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TheScooper
- FB Fan -
USA
187 Posts |
Posted - 01/15/2007 : 13:28:04
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| Paul Westerberg |
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TheScooper
- FB Fan -
USA
187 Posts |
Posted - 01/15/2007 : 13:31:04
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oh, and Stephen Merritt, aka the Magnetic Fields. And since we're doing the Beatles debate, George Harrison is of course the best beatle.
But all in all, Frank and Paul Westerberg are my two favorite song writers, much as the Pixies and the Replacements are my two favorite bands. |
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TheScooper
- FB Fan -
USA
187 Posts |
Posted - 01/15/2007 : 13:33:06
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| oh, and Matthew Johnson--aka The The--is an amazing lyricist, though his music is occasionally a little histrionic for my taste. Dusk by The The is just an amazing album, though |
Edited by - TheScooper on 01/15/2007 13:34:09 |
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trobrianders
> Teenager of the Year <
Papua New Guinea
3302 Posts |
Posted - 01/15/2007 : 18:20:24
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Please quote lyrics to back up the names. It helps. And it's fun.
e.g. Rickie Lee Jones 'Buys his meat from a whore next door. Wants it rare but he gets it well'
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Ed is the hoo hoo |
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Little Black Francis
> Teenager of the Year <
3648 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2007 : 00:36:35
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Reid Paley?
this, that, and shit-fuck. |
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trobrianders
> Teenager of the Year <
Papua New Guinea
3302 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2007 : 06:02:24
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Dylan advocates, yes you're probably right, Frank Black comes in second. But consider this. FB never wrote a line as naive as
'Either get ready for elimination or your hearts must have the courage for the changing of the guards' - Yeah, right
Though he did sing it obviously.
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Ed is the hoo hoo |
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coastline
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
3111 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2007 : 09:19:20
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A couple notes to trobrianders:
It's easy to find a shitty line from any songwriter, Dylan and Frank Black included. FB wrote, "Every pickle comes from cucumber." I can't even begin to say how many things are wrong with that line, which includes the fact that it's missing a word ("a").
I'm not big on holding up a single turn of phrase or even a whole verse as an example of great songwriting. A lot of it, for me, is the topics an artist covers in his whole catalog. That's one of the huge reasons I love Frank Black. He writes love songs, but not just about a chick or whatever (i.e. "Fitzgerald" on FMRM). But when he does write love songs about chicks, they're amazing, like "Cactus" and "Nadine." He writes about historical events, like in "Llana Del Rio" and "St. Francis Dam Disaster." He writes about lesser-known events, like in "The Last Stand of Shazeb Andleeb" and "(Do What You Want) Gyaneshwar)." He writes about interesting people -- "Robert Onion," "The Cult of Ray" (Bradbury), "Czar" (John Denver). He writes songs that I don't have the slightest clue as to what they're about. He writes songs where he buries acrostics in the lyrics. And he writes about UFOs!
Man, I'm starting to wonder why I ever thought Dylan was better.
 And aren't you havin' fun? |
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Ziggy
* Dog in the Sand *
United Kingdom
2463 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2007 : 09:25:18
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| Very wise words, coastline! |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2007 : 10:32:59
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The focus here seems to be on lyrics. I must confess that were it not for the valuable discussions at fb.net I would probably pay almost zero attention to the meaning of Frank's words beyond how they sound, just as I do the same with all music. I admit that is a real injustice to a wordsmith like Frank. For me, ironically a guy who knows zilch about theory of music, it's almost entirely about the melodies. I agree with Jefrey above, where he mentions the Beatles and the Pixies together. I find Frank, in all his guises, to be the high point of post-Beatles pop rock.
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coastline
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
3111 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2007 : 10:55:46
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Valid point, Erebus -- songs are more than just their lyrics. But I don't know how a person could let Frank Black's words go by without thinking about them. They're just too intriguing.
And aren't you havin' fun? |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2007 : 11:47:04
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quote:
Originally posted by coastline
Valid point, Erebus -- songs are more than just their lyrics. But I don't know how a person could let Frank Black's words go by without thinking about them. They're just too intriguing.
I think it's mostly laziness on my part coupled with almost total lack of aptitude for verse. I should have noted that one lyricist who does get in my face (I wish) is Liz Phair, but that's case where she's so sexually graphic that a guy can't help it. Not even I am that lazy.
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PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2007 : 11:57:58
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actually people who don't know much about music probably go straight for the melodies
FAST_MAN RAIDER_MAN - June 19th |
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coastline
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
3111 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2007 : 12:07:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
quote:
Originally posted by coastline
Valid point, Erebus -- songs are more than just their lyrics. But I don't know how a person could let Frank Black's words go by without thinking about them. They're just too intriguing.
I think it's mostly laziness on my part coupled with almost total lack of aptitude for verse. I should have noted that one lyricist who does get in my face (I wish) is Liz Phair, but that's case where she's so sexually graphic that a guy can't help it. Not even I am that lazy.
Yeah, hard to not notice when a woman sings, "I want to be your blowjob queen." Uh, like, OK Liz. I'm free tonight.
And aren't you havin' fun? |
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speedy_m
= Frankofile =
Canada
3581 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2007 : 12:08:06
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That's what erebus just said.
maybe I'll kick it
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rodney
- FB Fan -
USA
127 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2007 : 12:16:34
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No artist paints pictures of evokes feelings in me like Chuck Cleaver.
I'm a huge Cure fan, but not because of the lyrics. I actually think that Robert's kind of lazy when it comes to the words. |
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edbanky
= Cult of Ray =
Burkina Faso (Upper Volta)
388 Posts |
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coastline
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
3111 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2007 : 14:27:24
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Just remembered another one: Natalie Merchant. Both solo and with the Maniacs. Her songs always strike me as perfect in every way.
And aren't you havin' fun? |
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trobrianders
> Teenager of the Year <
Papua New Guinea
3302 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2007 : 16:16:02
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Thank you coastline. I bow. I guess my real point was that Dylan was writing in the idealistic Sixties but now we live in more savvy times. I shudder at what kind of lyrics a young Dylan would be writing today. But the other thing is Charles will never have Dylan's pedigree so the basis for comparison is unfair in the same way that Dylan could never match up to Keats. But I reckon if you played Dylan one of Charles' songs, say the Marsist, played acoustically, Dylan might have the feeling that he's just drunk from the Holy Songwriter's Grail. Don't you get the sense from people that Charles has worked with that they really do think he's over and above but that they feel it sensible to understate their admiration? I don't feel that constraint because I'm just a fan writing in a forum.
My only thing about quoting lyrics is I find it fun. To hear which particular lines appeal to others. I'm not really wanting to use them to make absolute judgements.
I second Nataie Merchant. 'My favourite blue blouse stained on the back running from a berry war'. That's just so lovely. And a perfect songwriter's way of reminding the listener about their own particular memories of first love. You see, it is fun to quote lyrics.
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Ed is the hoo hoo |
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PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2007 : 16:19:31
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quote:
Originally posted by speedy_m
That's what erebus just said.
maybe I'll kick it
he said it was ironic - i thought he was suggesting you wouldn't expect someone who knows zilch about theory of music to be so into melodies.
innit?
FAST_MAN RAIDER_MAN - June 19th |
Edited by - PixieSteve on 01/16/2007 16:20:40 |
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the acorahs
- FB Fan -
United Kingdom
181 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2007 : 16:35:37
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black francis
----------------------------------------
it is a wretched life and vanity is repulsive
www.myspace.com/thesexymistakes |
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trobrianders
> Teenager of the Year <
Papua New Guinea
3302 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2007 : 16:50:59
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A brief photo caption I once wrote about Liz Phair. 'Lo-fi indie songstress Liz Phair. Her combination of preppy looks and explicit lyrics thrilled the male music establishment'.
But it's ok. You don't need to be forty, corrupt and pony-tailed to think she's good.
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Ed is the hoo hoo |
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speedy_m
= Frankofile =
Canada
3581 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2007 : 17:00:55
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quote:
Originally posted by PixieSteve
innit?
FAST_MAN RAIDER_MAN - June 19th
It is not.
maybe I'll kick it
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2007 : 18:03:52
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quote:
Originally posted by PixieSteve
actually people who don't know much about music probably go straight for the melodies
We could do worse, yes? Suffer the fool: somehow it would blunder unto quality despite itself, while the wise chafe.
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coastline
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
3111 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2007 : 18:04:17
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quote:
Originally posted by trobrianders
A brief photo caption I once wrote about Liz Phair. 'Lo-fi indie songstress Liz Phair. Her combination of preppy looks and explicit lyrics thrilled the male music establishment'.
But it's ok. You don't need to be forty, corrupt and pony-tailed to think she's good.
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Ed is the hoo hoo
You work for some publication or something?
And aren't you havin' fun? |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2007 : 18:16:35
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quote:
Originally posted by PixieSteve
he said it was ironic - i thought he was suggesting you wouldn't expect someone who knows zilch about theory of music to be so into melodies.
Yes, that is what I meant, and I thank you, and speedy. speedy has long given me more attention than I deserve. Thanks speedy: I've noticed.
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IceCream
= Quote Accumulator =
USA
1850 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2007 : 18:20:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
The focus here seems to be on lyrics. I must confess that were it not for the valuable discussions at fb.net I would probably pay almost zero attention to the meaning of Frank's words beyond how they sound, just as I do the same with all music. I admit that is a real injustice to a wordsmith like Frank. For me, ironically a guy who knows zilch about theory of music, it's almost entirely about the melodies. I agree with Jefrey above, where he mentions the Beatles and the Pixies together. I find Frank, in all his guises, to be the high point of post-Beatles pop rock.
If we're basing it on lyrics, Frank is up there, as is Isaac Brock and Beck. But especially Isaac Brock. And Captain Beefheart.
As far as sheer melody goes, Robert Pollard is king. I will never write a better melody than him for as long as I live. Some people don't like Guided By Voices. Personally, I don't understand how someone can claim to like music and yet look me in the eye and tell me they don't like Bob Pollard's songwriting. His songwriting alone got him where he is today - he got a record deal, and he didn't have to do any ass kissing or compromising or even touring. He didn't need a studio or musicianship - just great songs. (Yes, some of Propeller was recorded in a studio, but that's not the point.)
Brian Wilson could also write some really good melodies. |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2007 : 18:36:24
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quote:
Originally posted by trobrianders
A brief photo caption I once wrote about Liz Phair. 'Lo-fi indie songstress Liz Phair. Her combination of preppy looks and explicit lyrics thrilled the male music establishment'.
But it's ok. You don't need to be forty, corrupt and pony-tailed to think she's good.
Liz has taken her lumps lately, mostly undeserved in my opinion. Just today I was listening to an acoustic boot (recently emerged on the dime) from Aug 1, 2005, with her accompanist man'o'day Dino. It's a good 'un. Clean recording, great setlist, and in many repects more representative of just where she has been recently than were her last two misguidedly maligned albums. She offers something nobody else has on offer and that's no small achievement within the heavily-treaded context of rock. But this thread is about FB.
Of note, Liz herself will soon turn forty.
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Topic |
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Other songwriters as good as Frank
