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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
 Posted - 07/18/2006 : 20:36:20
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Anybody else scared by this radicalizing not just of the extremists but of ordinary people? Funny how only Bush, Harper and Olmert support Israel in what is the creation of yet more "martyrs." What a way to perpetuate the needless cycle of carnage.
I'm going to the memorial on Saturday. This guy's pharmacy is not far from me and his surviving family lives in my neighborhood.
Blast claims life of eighth Canadian
Montreal pharmacist dies of injuries
Family hit by Israeli rocket in Lebanon
Jul. 18, 2006/QUEBEC BUREAU CHIEF
MONTREAL—A 35-year-old Montreal pharmacist succumbed to massive abdominal injuries suffered in an Israeli attack in southern Lebanon, becoming the eighth Canadian member of his family to die in the incident.
Relatives received word late yesterday from family in Lebanon of the death of Ali Al-Akhras, who along with his mother, father, wife and four children had been huddling in the basement of a house that collapsed in flames Sunday after the rocket attack.
Earlier in the day, Ali Al-Akhras' devastated siblings and other relatives held an emotional news conference where they seethed at Ottawa's "passiveness and inaction" and lambasted federal officials for a lack of support and for their foot-dragging in helping Canadians stranded in southern Lebanon.
Like many Canadians now trying to flee the country, Ali Al-Akhras and 12 relatives were vacationing in the region, having travelled there late last month.
His sister said Ali Al-Akhras had been saving for months to pay for the five-week trip. It meant "everything," one relative said. Several other family members were also planning to travel to Lebanon later this month to visit relatives.
Grieving relatives expressed bitter disappointment at Prime Minister Stephen Harper's refusal to condemn Israel's military push into Lebanon. They also said no one from Ottawa had yet contacted the family to personally express condolences or offer support — a fact that hasn't gone unnoticed in the Lebanese community — although Quebec Premier Jean Charest did phone to offer his sympathy, as did the CEO of the pharmacy group in which Ali Al-Akhras was a franchisee.
The family's fury was compounded by reports that an ambulance taking Ali Al-Akhras to a hospital in Beirut had to turn back when it came under fire from Israeli planes and artillery. It took more than 24 hours for the ambulance to reach its destination, family members say.
"We are demanding that the Canadian government take all the necessary steps to rescue and support Canadians in Lebanon, and bring them back home. We are also asking that they put pressure on Israel to stop these massacres ... and we want Canada to take a leadership role in demanding an international investigation into what happened," said Hassan Al-Akhrass, whose father — also named Ali — was one of the dead. (Different family members use varying spellings of their surname.)
"No one is supporting Lebanon. No one is saying the bombing has to stop. Everyone is saying Hezbollah caused this. Well, Hezbollah is our protector ... this is a second Sept. 11 for us," said a tearful Mayssoun Al-Akhras, whose mother, brother, sister-in-law, four nieces and nephews and uncle perished when Israeli bombs and rockets slammed into a row of four houses in Aitarun, the family's home base in southern Lebanon, near Beirut.
"Meanwhile, Mr. Harper sits behind his desk and does nothing," she said.
She recalled a short telephone conversation several days ago with her terrified 8-year-old niece as bombs exploded near the family's base. "They all died in the same room. They were all burned (to death)."
Relatives said the attack's only remaining survivor — 64-year-old Ahmed Al-Akhras, a retired grocer — is badly injured and was clinging to life yesterday. The elder Al-Akhras is said to be suffering from serious burns on various parts of his body, which has prompted his Montreal-based relatives to accuse Israel of using prohibited bombs.
Sayed Nabil Assad — who is Iraqi Grand Ayatollah Ali Al-Sistani's representative in North America — angrily denounced a "bloody attack ... and a humanitarian crisis in all senses of the word" and called on Harper and MacKay to intervene.
Assad, who knows the family well, spoke at a table adorned with pictures of the dead.
Several family members offered wrenching remembrances of Ali Al-Akhras' four children — Saja, 8, Zeinab, 6, Ahmad, 4, and Salam, 11 months.
They also mourned the children's mother, 24-year-old Amira Al-Akhras and family matriarch Hania Al-Akhras.
The surviving relatives held a vigil last night for other members of the city's large Lebanese community, many of whom are fretting over the whereabouts of loved ones.
The Al-Akhras family has decided against bringing their relatives' remains back to Canada — only one recognizable body was pulled from the rubble. A memorial service will be held Saturday at the Lebanese Islamic Centre.
I’m the only one who can say that this light is mine
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Edited by - kathryn on 07/18/2006 20:39:04 |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2006 : 21:50:22
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Yeah, Harper's a smart man on many things, but a complete idiot when it comes to foreign policy.
 "No man remains quite what he was when he recognizes himself." |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2006 : 23:16:18
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"No one is supporting Lebanon. No one is saying the bombing has to stop. Everyone is saying Hezbollah caused this. Well, Hezbollah is our protector ... this is a second Sept. 11 for us,"
I know this a quote from a grieving person, but if they want to put in their lot with Hezbollah, then there's consequences. |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2006 : 00:26:24
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Hezbollah deliberately situates its assets within civilian neighborhoods. Even though the Israelis are for the most part using precision weapons against legitimate military targets, civilian casualties are therefore made inevitable BY Hezbollah, which is what THEY want. Conversely, Hezbollah uses imprecise weapons targetted at whole cities, not at Israeli military assets, which disproportionately results in the deaths of Israeli civilians, which is, again, what Hezbollah wants and is completely consistent with their nature as terrorists. Meanwhile many people will somehow assert that there exists a moral equivalency between the two sides.
As Austin Bay writes: http://austinbay.net/blog/?p=1307
These neighborhoods and villages are controlled by Hezbollah, not the Lebanese government.
Israel is being fired upon from a Lebanon that “is not quite Lebanon” in a truly sovereign sense. The rockets, of course, come from “somewhere,” but Hezbollah’s “somewhere” is a political limbo in terms of maps with definitive geo-political boundaries. Lebanon is a “failed state” – a peculiar failed state (its not Somalia), but nevertheless failed. It will continue to fail so long as the Lebanese government cannot control Hezbollah – and control means disarm.
So Hezbollah attacks Israel with ever more-powerful, longer-range rockets, then hides behind the diplomatic facade of the greater Lebanese nation state.
Thus terrorists and terror-empowering nations, like Iran and Syria, abuse the nation-state system – or exploit a “dangerous hole” in the system..
Iran and Syria then appeal to the United Nations (a product of the Westphalian “nation state” system) to condemn Israel for attacking Lebanon – when Israel is attacking Hezbollah, which “is and is not Lebanon.” [snip]
Israel indicates disarming Hezbollah is its objective. But to truly achieve that goal – to stop the rockets – means ending Iranian and Syrian control of Lebanese neighborhoods.
Terrorists and tyrants together exploit failed states.
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vilainde
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Niue
7441 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2006 : 00:31:01
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Sorry to slightly derail the thread but you gotta love this article, from imdb.com. "Their vacation was ruined by rocket fire from Lebanon."
<<Culkin and Kunis Escape From Israel
Home Alone star Macaulay Culkin and his girlfriend, That 70s Show actress Mila Kunis, narrowly escaped from Israel after their vacation was ruined by rocket fire from Lebanon. The couple were enjoying a relaxing holiday when rocket fire hit the Israeli town of Haifa, where the couple was staying. Culkin insisted the pair immediately leave the country, but Kunis was reluctant to end her holiday early, telling the Jerusalem Post, "He's a drama queen." The couple eventually decided to return to the US and Culkin told a flight attendant on their plane that wasn't the only problem the couple encountered on the trip. He said, "We went to the beach, and there were tons of jellyfish - so we figured that even the sea was dangerous." >>
Denis
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lonely persuader
= Cult of Ray =
Ireland
488 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2006 : 03:31:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
Hezbollah deliberately situates its assets within civilian neighborhoods. Even though the Israelis are for the most part using precision weapons against legitimate military targets, civilian casualties are therefore made inevitable BY Hezbollah, which is what THEY want. Conversely, Hezbollah uses imprecise weapons targetted at whole cities, not at Israeli military assets, which disproportionately results in the deaths of Israeli civilians, which is, again, what Hezbollah wants and is completely consistent with their nature as terrorists. Meanwhile many people will somehow assert that there exists a moral equivalency between the two sides.
As Austin Bay writes: http://austinbay.net/blog/?p=1307
These neighborhoods and villages are controlled by Hezbollah, not the Lebanese government.
Israel is being fired upon from a Lebanon that “is not quite Lebanon” in a truly sovereign sense. The rockets, of course, come from “somewhere,” but Hezbollah’s “somewhere” is a political limbo in terms of maps with definitive geo-political boundaries. Lebanon is a “failed state” – a peculiar failed state (its not Somalia), but nevertheless failed. It will continue to fail so long as the Lebanese government cannot control Hezbollah – and control means disarm.
So Hezbollah attacks Israel with ever more-powerful, longer-range rockets, then hides behind the diplomatic facade of the greater Lebanese nation state.
Thus terrorists and terror-empowering nations, like Iran and Syria, abuse the nation-state system – or exploit a “dangerous hole” in the system..
Iran and Syria then appeal to the United Nations (a product of the Westphalian “nation state” system) to condemn Israel for attacking Lebanon – when Israel is attacking Hezbollah, which “is and is not Lebanon.” [snip]
Israel indicates disarming Hezbollah is its objective. But to truly achieve that goal – to stop the rockets – means ending Iranian and Syrian control of Lebanese neighborhoods.
Terrorists and tyrants together exploit failed states.
Whatever! |
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Carl
- A 'Fifth' Catholic -
Ireland
11546 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2006 : 03:57:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
Hezbollah deliberately situates its assets within civilian neighborhoods. Even though the Israelis are for the most part using precision weapons against legitimate military targets, civilian casualties are therefore made inevitable BY Hezbollah, which is what THEY want. Conversely, Hezbollah uses imprecise weapons targetted at whole cities, not at Israeli military assets, which disproportionately results in the deaths of Israeli civilians, which is, again, what Hezbollah wants and is completely consistent with their nature as terrorists. Meanwhile many people will somehow assert that there exists a moral equivalency between the two sides.
As Austin Bay writes: http://austinbay.net/blog/?p=1307
Israel is being fired upon from a Lebanon that “is not quite Lebanon” in a truly sovereign sense. The rockets, of course, come from “somewhere,” but Hezbollah’s “somewhere” is a political limbo in terms of maps with definitive geo-political boundaries. Lebanon is a “failed state” – a peculiar failed state (its not Somalia), but nevertheless failed.
Give me a break.
Join the Cult Of Pob! And don't forget to listen to the Pobcast! |
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2006 : 05:34:22
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Where you been? that´s what wars are about these days, pulverising civilians. The business of killing people can be fiendishly precise when it wants to be, but somehow they feel the need to flatten a whole neighbourhood now and then to get at a much smaller number of people.
A friend of mine is Brazilian-Lebanese and was due to fly to Beiruit to see her family next week, another friend is Israeli and has just been called up to military service (everone does 3 years there and then a month a year up to middleage) which he has refused. They´re both friends of each other, it´s weird to feel that if he hadn´t refused he could be over there terrorising her family. All governments are freaks, though the universe has a habit of deleting anachronisms so I feel we´ll be okay.
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Gravy boat! Stay in the now! |
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Angry Elvis
- FB Fan -
USA
68 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2006 : 06:24:52
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quote:
Where you been? that´s what wars are about these days, pulverising civilians. The business of killing people can be fiendishly precise when it wants to be, but somehow they feel the need to flatten a whole neighbourhood now and then to get at a much smaller number of people.
Faced with categorical declarations that they will be exterminated, converted, enslaved and beheaded the most sophisticated thinkers in the West look for nuance. They don't really believe those threats, however explicit, however open. Even when huge skyscrapers come tumbling down it's understood in terms of installation art. Someone is sending a message. What could it be? Maybe, like Moussaoui, the senders simply had a bad childhood and really need someone who understands them. And that's exactly who they need: someone who understands them. A lesser mortal who will painstakingly write down in pencil, word by word, just exactly what Osama bin Laden and Ahmadinejad have been uttering all these years and who will look up from his paper and say, "you know boss, I think they want to kill us".
***i'm just a hunka hunka burnin love*** |
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HeywoodJablome
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1485 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2006 : 07:12:44
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I like bunnies.
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Wait a minute, strike that. Reverse it. |
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Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2006 : 07:19:33
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What lies before us and what lies behind us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us -Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2006 : 07:59:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
Hezbollah deliberately situates its assets within civilian neighborhoods. Even though the Israelis are for the most part using precision weapons against legitimate military targets, civilian casualties are therefore made inevitable BY Hezbollah, which is what THEY want. Conversely, Hezbollah uses imprecise weapons targetted at whole cities, not at Israeli military assets, which disproportionately results in the deaths of Israeli civilians, which is, again, what Hezbollah wants and is completely consistent with their nature as terrorists. Meanwhile many people will somehow assert that there exists a moral equivalency between the two sides.
As Austin Bay writes: http://austinbay.net/blog/?p=1307
These neighborhoods and villages are controlled by Hezbollah, not the Lebanese government.
Israel is being fired upon from a Lebanon that “is not quite Lebanon” in a truly sovereign sense. The rockets, of course, come from “somewhere,” but Hezbollah’s “somewhere” is a political limbo in terms of maps with definitive geo-political boundaries. Lebanon is a “failed state” – a peculiar failed state (its not Somalia), but nevertheless failed. It will continue to fail so long as the Lebanese government cannot control Hezbollah – and control means disarm.
So Hezbollah attacks Israel with ever more-powerful, longer-range rockets, then hides behind the diplomatic facade of the greater Lebanese nation state.
Thus terrorists and terror-empowering nations, like Iran and Syria, abuse the nation-state system – or exploit a “dangerous hole” in the system..
Iran and Syria then appeal to the United Nations (a product of the Westphalian “nation state” system) to condemn Israel for attacking Lebanon – when Israel is attacking Hezbollah, which “is and is not Lebanon.” [snip]
Israel indicates disarming Hezbollah is its objective. But to truly achieve that goal – to stop the rockets – means ending Iranian and Syrian control of Lebanese neighborhoods.
Terrorists and tyrants together exploit failed states.
Has anyone seen numbers on civilian casualties so far? I believe I saw some numbers (but could be mistaken) that casualties in Lebanon far outnumber those in Israel is spite of Hezbollah attacks not sticking to military targets or having "precision" strikes.
Personally, I absolutely think that Israel is not helping their own situation. First, one of their soldiers is kidnapped and they are just eager to get on the warpath. It's not like any civilians were attacked or targetted, just a simple military operation. The same thing happens again from Hezbollah's militants, who, fine, they may be terrorists, and yeah, Lebanon supports them, but do they think there is going to be increased pressure from Lebanon to expel them while they bomb and shell the country and civilians?
I was personally angry that citizens from my own country were killed in this reckless show of force, and I have no connection to the victims. I can only think their families must want blood. And what of the scores who live there and are seeing their family killed, hurt, or generally attacked? Who do you think they're going to support? Doubtless they feel the same?
Put it this way... you're at school and someone you don't like but sits in the same row as you steals another guy's pencil. A big guy with big friends. That guy then goes and starts beating you and everyone else in that row up until the pencil is returned. The guy who originally stole the pencil is an idiot, obviously, and refuses to return it, but he does go after the guy that beat you up and tries to defend you, whatever his motives may be.
Who are you going to support? One guy beat you up for nothing that has anything to do with you. The other guy who provoked the anger is fighting back. You might still dislike the provoker, but unless you have a screw loose you'll back the guy not beating you up (though before he attacked you, you would probably be wholly against the pencil thief).
So while I see that countries supporting/partially run by terrorists need to be put on notice, and while I see that Iran's dirty fingerprints are all over it, what I do not see is any positive results coming from shelling. Instead, you turn those in Lebanon who might even support you (or at least would like to peacefully coexist) against you.
Israel is behaving recklessly and like a petulent child (hence my schoolyard analogy), and deserves some international pressure to grow up. Although they're mad about the stolen pencil, starting a fight is not the way to solve their issues. Likewise, countries like Lebanon need international pressure and support to expel these radicals and control their own lands. A suspension or at least trip to the principal is in order.
If all we can understand is force, then Harper should use some of his $15 billion military upgrades to shell an Israeli city until they promise to bring back to life our dead citizens. Oh yeah, you're right. That's ridiculous.
PS Sorry this is all over the place.
"No man remains quite what he was when he recognizes himself." |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2006 : 08:43:15
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Hmmm, well, .... I thought Austin Bay was making a rather insightful set of points.
Yesterday I ran across an interesting, informal online poll. I’ve included the results even though they are based on an insignificant sample, but mostly I’m posting it because I found the set of questions thought-provoking.
What Israel engages in with respect to Palestinian people is terrorism.
True: 31%
False: 69%
Total Votes: 51
What Palestinians engage in with respect to Israel is terrorism.
True: 90%
False: 10%
Total Votes: 48
If Palestinian violence ceased, Israel would stop aggression towards Palestinians.
True: 67%
False: 33%
Total Votes: 51
If Palestinian/Israeli violence stopped, Israel would support economic development in Palestine.
True: 59%
False: 41%
Total Votes: 46
If Israeli violence ceased, Palestinian aggression would stop as well.
True: 14%
False: 86%
Total Votes: 49
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lonely persuader
= Cult of Ray =
Ireland
488 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2006 : 09:27:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
Hmmm, well, .... I thought Austin Bay was making a rather insightful set of points.
Yesterday I ran across an interesting, informal online poll. I’ve included the results even though they are based on an insignificant sample, but mostly I’m posting it because I found the set of questions thought-provoking.
What Israel engages in with respect to Palestinian people is terrorism.
True: 31%
False: 69%
Total Votes: 51
What Palestinians engage in with respect to Israel is terrorism.
True: 90%
False: 10%
Total Votes: 48
If Palestinian violence ceased, Israel would stop aggression towards Palestinians.
True: 67%
False: 33%
Total Votes: 51
If Palestinian/Israeli violence stopped, Israel would support economic development in Palestine.
True: 59%
False: 41%
Total Votes: 46
If Israeli violence ceased, Palestinian aggression would stop as well.
True: 14%
False: 86%
Total Votes: 49
interesting!! no.
stick a beard and normal clothes on some-one with a pen-knife, call him a terrorist.
shave some-one, stick him in a uniform with a machine gun and call him a peacekeeper.
"If Palestinian/Israeli violence stopped, Israel would support economic development in Palestine."
that's bollox, all Israel's wealth and military might already comes from the US. This is US money that is being used and is american tax payers money (of which many are indeed delighted to see spent in such a way).
"If Israeli violence ceased, Palestinian aggression would stop as well."
No,
Maybe because they are already fighting against oppression, poverty and injustice while US/Israel throw them scraps from inside their fortresses. |
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lonely persuader
= Cult of Ray =
Ireland
488 Posts |
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El Loco
- FB Fan -
206 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2006 : 09:44:12
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instant peace = jews out of palestine
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Carl
- A 'Fifth' Catholic -
Ireland
11546 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2006 : 10:06:51
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Saw Bush's toadie Blair on Prime Minister's Question Time today, stating that the fighting between Israel and Lebanon was triggered by the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers and Lebanon's rocket attacks. No, it was triggered by the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers and Israel's rocket attacks.
Join the Cult Of Pob! And don't forget to listen to the Pobcast! |
Edited by - Carl on 07/19/2006 10:08:45 |
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edbanky
= Cult of Ray =
Burkina Faso (Upper Volta)
388 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2006 : 12:30:54
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Where to begin . . .
Yes, everyone is equally bad and equally good except Jews and George Bush. Yes, Palestinians want nothing but justice for all. Also, the best way to dissuade Islamist states from sodomizing society is to supply endless vats of Vaseline. I agree wholeheartedly.
Misogynist * Infidel * Bigot |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2006 : 13:01:05
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Not often I agree with Erebus on politics or foreign affairs, but largely do here. Replies like "whatever" and give me a break" carry no weight.
"Israel is behaving recklessly and like a petulent child (hence my schoolyard analogy), and deserves some international pressure to grow up." A child that has heard repeatedly heard from otther kids that they are going to be destroyed. A child that has a LONG history of people trying to exterminate them. Israel has only survived this long by being strong and defending themselves. Are they over edge now? Probably, but so far they've gotten out of Lebanon (except for a small piece) and given back the Gaza and they've received nothing in return. |
Edited by - darwin on 07/19/2006 13:14:57 |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2006 : 13:53:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Newo
All governments are freaks, though the universe has a habit of deleting anachronisms so I feel we´ll be okay.
You've expressed similar sentiments before, and I agree at least insofar as I favor as little government as possible. But it makes me wonder what you propose as an alternative. You're not an anarchist, are you? And I assume you're not proposing some rule by "the mass of the people" as somehow without any government at all. Yes, governments suck, but we are going to have some form(s) of government, no matter what, right? If not, you certainly have a lot more faith in the evolution of the common man than I do, or at least I think you must. Maybe I'm just lacking in imagination.
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Edited by - Erebus on 07/19/2006 14:00:02 |
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Carl
- A 'Fifth' Catholic -
Ireland
11546 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2006 : 16:34:47
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin
Replies like "whatever" and give me a break" carry no weight.
Well, true, 'give me a break' isn't a very constructive reply. But I just thought the things that I quoted were a little bit ridiculous. Just saying that Israel were aiming for 'military targets' doesn't completely justify their attacks. Also the suggestion that Lebanon isn't a proper state-what, it's just a government and a group of Hezbolla terrorists? You can't just conveniantly deny their status as a country.
Join the Cult Of Pob! And don't forget to listen to the Pobcast! |
Edited by - Carl on 07/19/2006 16:39:20 |
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misleadtheworld
* Dog in the Sand *
United Kingdom
1222 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2006 : 17:16:23
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quote:
Originally posted by El Loco
instant peace = jews out of palestine
Nonsense.
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2006 : 17:52:39
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Interesting comments. I'm still fuming, having learned this morning that a close friend's family, who were in Canada visiting 2 weeks ago, fled their home after it was destroyed, I mean to the ground destroyed, 2 days ago. By family I mean his 80something grandmother and 60ish dad and uncle, who are literally in a cave with whatever water they could carry.
Meanwhile the prime minister of Canada is on the front page of the Toronto Globe & Mail comforting his weeping wife as she kneels by the grave of her great-uncle who died in a war in 1917. Her PR people were apparently not astute enough to tell her to get her ass away from the G8 meeting and back to Canada to have her photo taken with the Montrealers who lost 11 family members, several of them kids from my neighborhood.
Don't mind me. I'm just a little angry.
I’m the only one who can say that this light is mine
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2006 : 19:02:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Carl
quote:
Originally posted by darwin
Replies like "whatever" and give me a break" carry no weight.
Well, true, 'give me a break' isn't a very constructive reply. But I just thought the things that I quoted were a little bit ridiculous. Just saying that Israel were aiming for 'military targets' doesn't completely justify their attacks. Also the suggestion that Lebanon isn't a proper state-what, it's just a government and a group of Hezbolla terrorists? You can't just conveniantly deny their status as a country.
I wasn't meaning to justify Israel's actions by suggesting Lebanon wasn't entitled to some respect. It's just that in important respects Lebanon lacks sovereignty over its own territory and that certainly seems germane to the current hostilities. Your last sentence made me chuckle because when I get upset over the US's inability to control immigration I frequently say to myself "A nation that can't control its borders isn't a real nation."
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Edited by - Erebus on 07/19/2006 19:06:48 |
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lonely persuader
= Cult of Ray =
Ireland
488 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2006 : 03:55:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
quote:
Originally posted by Carl
quote:
Originally posted by darwin
Replies like "whatever" and give me a break" carry no weight.
Well, true, 'give me a break' isn't a very constructive reply. But I just thought the things that I quoted were a little bit ridiculous. Just saying that Israel were aiming for 'military targets' doesn't completely justify their attacks. Also the suggestion that Lebanon isn't a proper state-what, it's just a government and a group of Hezbolla terrorists? You can't just conveniantly deny their status as a country.
I wasn't meaning to justify Israel's actions by suggesting Lebanon wasn't entitled to some respect. It's just that in important respects Lebanon lacks sovereignty over its own territory and that certainly seems germane to the current hostilities. Your last sentence made me chuckle because when I get upset over the US's inability to control immigration I frequently say to myself "A nation that can't control its borders isn't a real nation."
Indeed, we have long known that the US is not a real nation. A plastic, artificial nation wholly self obsessed with its own importance and dominance in the world. |
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The Champ
= Cult of Ray =
Canada
736 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2006 : 05:35:29
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Her PR people were apparently not astute enough to tell her to get her ass away from the G8 meeting and back to Canada to have her photo taken with the Montrealers who lost 11 family members, several of them kids from my neighborhood.
Ya kathryn too bad they are occupied right now in cyprus using the aircraft they were traveling on to rescue the people in cyprus. Im so sick of people bashing harper for doing the right thing for once. |
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Carl
- A 'Fifth' Catholic -
Ireland
11546 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2006 : 06:49:24
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I'm sorry to hear that. I gather from what Kathryn and yourself have suggested, that Lebanon has quite a few Canadian immigrants?
Join the Cult Of Pob! And don't forget to listen to the Pobcast! |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2006 : 07:39:04
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I think the number is something like 200,000. Many have moved to live with their families, though, so not all want out.
Harper doing the right thing (i.e. using his aircraft to take Canadians back) is commendable. Cynics would tell you that he is shrewdly silencing critics, and I don't doubt that's crossed his mind (after all, wouldn't the plane have a few more seats if he'd just flown out with his official photographer, wife, etc on public transport like the media were forced to and sent the plane to Cyprus without the five of them? That's one more family. But I digress...) good is good, whatever the motivation, and good for him for doing this.
So he did the right thing for once, and I'm pleased, but nevertheless, his unilateral and unequivocal stance on what clearly is a complicated issue is not the right thing in my mind. That someone can do right and wrong does not always make him right or immune to analysis and/or criticism.
"No man remains quite what he was when he recognizes himself." |
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The Champ
= Cult of Ray =
Canada
736 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2006 : 07:45:47
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| But cult the entire G8 took the same stance. I dont know where this idea came from that it was just bush and harper. |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2006 : 08:27:07
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I don't think I said that, but if I did, you're right that it's not just the two of them. I don't think they unanimously agree that Israel's reaction was wholly justified, or not an overreaction, but that's an aside.
"No man remains quite what he was when he recognizes himself." |
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The Champ
= Cult of Ray =
Canada
736 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2006 : 08:39:54
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| No sorry your right, Kathryn said that. |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
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El Loco
- FB Fan -
206 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2006 : 11:42:25
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quote:
Originally posted by misleadtheworld
quote:
Originally posted by El Loco
instant peace = jews out of palestine
Nonsense.
well it's a start, and does your reply "carry any weight"? |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2006 : 12:05:43
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Why did you write "instant peace = jews out of palenstine" rather than "instant peace = Israelis out of palenstine"?
That strikes an anti-semitic chord. |
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El Loco
- FB Fan -
206 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2006 : 13:05:35
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin
Why did you write "instant peace = jews out of palenstine" rather than "instant peace = Israelis out of palenstine"?
That strikes an anti-semitic chord.
you're right but then again my boss is jewish and he states the term jew as an accepted term in description. We had a conversation about this last week, my office includes a chinese, polish or pole, mexican, black african american, japanese, russian and a regular bible belt caucasian. Are you jewish, is that your gripe? |
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2006 : 14:53:16
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quote:
Angry Elvis Posted - 07/19/2006 : 06:24:52
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They don't really believe those threats, however explicit, however open.
There is a difference between not believing in the threats and believing in the threats while disbelieving who the teevee tells you is responsible.
--
Gravy boat! Stay in the now! |
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Ooops! Attacks kill more than Hezbolla terrorists
