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Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
 Posted - 05/25/2006 : 03:42:52
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Anybody use these to positive effect? I guess I'm talking about acupuncture, homeopathy and anything else that falls under the umbrella.
My cynicism has just been raised by an advert in a local free monthly magazine trying to promote Reiki Healing for animals. I guess if it works for humans(?) then it could work for animals, but it just smacks of opportunism to me (the advert that is).
There's also been rumblings recently in the UK about the NHS funding alternative therapies (we do - some say we shouldn't). Can you get alternative therapies through health insurance?
Pain is temporary, quitting is forever.
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lonely persuader
= Cult of Ray =
Ireland
488 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2006 : 03:54:07
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| There's a possibility that they could work but they have not been proven using evidence based medicine so, NO, these "alternative therapies" should not be available on national health services, until there is a statistically significant positive effect when using them. |
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2006 : 05:46:10
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Well some holistic therapy has sound basis and proven track record so if it works, roll with it I say, but don't throw money at every happy clappy hippy horseshit treatment that comes on the market.
forum ebook: end of miles |
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Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2006 : 06:15:57
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I'm fairly sure acupuncture has been proven scientifically to relieve symptoms. There are a few other 'energy' based therapies around, aren't there?
I used to know a doctor's wife in Suffolk who claimed to be able to heal people with the laying of hands. Said that she took part of their illness into her....so gave her a sore stomach if treating a stomach complaint, that kind of thing. She seemed genuine, or genuinely believed in what she was doing. Is it a kind of fooling yourself or your 'patients'?
Doesn't refloxology have a fairly sound footing (see what I did there?)?
Pain is temporary, quitting is forever.
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Edited by - Llamadance on 05/25/2006 06:16:16 |
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mosleyk
= Cult of Ray =
USA
607 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2006 : 08:34:08
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Acupuncture is used routinely in our pain management clinic for both kids and adults. Don't know much about reflexology, but DAMN it sure feels good.
If you are having joint/knee/back problems I would highly recommend having someone work with your alignment. This can be done through a number of methods. My favorite being alexander technique. It works off the basis that many times our problem with our knees may not be our knee but rather the way we are walking on our feet (i.e. walking on the insides or outsides of our feet which has a domino effects on our entire posture). Don't know if there have been studies done on its effectiveness, but honestly it just makes sense to me and everytime I have taken a workshop I have felt a big difference in how my body feels.
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Frog in the Sand
-+ Le premiere frog +-
France
2715 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2006 : 08:53:44
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My girlfriend uses homeopathy to treat our son and I must say it usually works very well, and even better as a preventive treatment. Obviously it stimulates the immune system, unlike antibiotics.
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 blackolero le only Frank Black / Pixies site 100% in français |
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mosleyk
= Cult of Ray =
USA
607 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2006 : 08:57:37
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Frog in the Sand
-+ Le premiere frog +-
France
2715 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2006 : 09:36:46
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What do you mean by "what kind"?
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blackolero le only Frank Black / Pixies site 100% in français |
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Carl
- A 'Fifth' Catholic -
Ireland
11546 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2006 : 09:41:27
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Homeopathy-type hoemopathy? Or non homeopathy-type homeopathy?
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2006 : 09:46:15
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quote:
Llamadance
* Dog in the Sand *
United Kingdom
1442 Posts
Posted - 05/25/2006 : 06:15:57
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I'm fairly sure acupuncture has been proven scientifically to relieve symptoms. There are a few other 'energy' based therapies around, aren't there?
Seeing as we´re basically hydroelectric beings it is a pity there aren´t more. (Granted, it is a field with its fair share of quackery, as has the state-educated field) Many, not all, state doctors I are wonderful at treating trauma but not much else besides symptomatic treatments, which is what happens when you´re working with this primitive view of the human body as simple meat machine - and would be my bad if I went to one anyway, I feel a person is their own healer.
I posted this a while back
tis a photo from Necker Hospital in Paris of the meridian system picked out by a gamma camera after radioactive tracers had been injected into acupuncture points to see pathweays of biophotons. Acupuncture came about from some fellow sitting by the bank of the Yangtse thousands of years ago sticking a pin in his toe, feeling a tickle in his ear and saying Ah so that´s where that route goes, and mapping out all the meridians accordingly. Disease sets in when one or more parts of the human body is not resonating in harmony with the rest, and for a few millennia now acupuncturists have been using subtle knowledge of what is essentially the circuitboard of the body to harmonise and balance these flows. I realise this may sound extravagantly broad to anyone who can speak science fluently so if it does, I say get thee to an acupuncturist.
--
Gravy boat! Stay in the now! |
Edited by - Newo on 05/25/2006 09:48:38 |
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mosleyk
= Cult of Ray =
USA
607 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2006 : 09:54:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Frog in the Sand
What do you mean by "what kind"?
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blackolero le only Frank Black / Pixies site 100% in français
Sorry I was unclear. I mean what kind of remedy(s) did she use to treat your son. |
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lonely persuader
= Cult of Ray =
Ireland
488 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2006 : 10:05:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Frog in the Sand
My girlfriend uses homeopathy to treat our son and I must say it usually works very well, and even better as a preventive treatment. Obviously it stimulates the immune system, unlike antibiotics.
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blackolero le only Frank Black / Pixies site 100% in français
Obviously??
there is no proof? the reasons the homeopathy quacks give are ridiculous? dilution to near infinite proportions (arse), the more dilute the more potent the effect will be (arse). sounds like any scam.
Oh, dilute it more, and it will be stronger!! sound like a good way to get infinite amounts of a cure!!!
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Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2006 : 10:16:38
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It has been shown that water has a 'memory' of structures that it retains despite dilution. Whether that has anything to do with homeopathy, I don't know.
[edit] for info - http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn3817
Pain is temporary, quitting is forever.
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Edited by - Llamadance on 05/25/2006 10:20:35 |
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Frog in the Sand
-+ Le premiere frog +-
France
2715 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2006 : 10:29:18
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quote:
Originally posted by lonely persuader
quote:
Originally posted by Frog in the Sand
My girlfriend uses homeopathy to treat our son and I must say it usually works very well, and even better as a preventive treatment. Obviously it stimulates the immune system, unlike antibiotics.
Obviously??
there is no proof? the reasons the homeopathy quacks give are ridiculous? dilution to near infinite proportions (arse), the more dilute the more potent the effect will be (arse). sounds like any scam.
Oh, dilute it more, and it will be stronger!! sound like a good way to get infinite amounts of a cure!!!
Funny, 4-5 years ago I would have said the same thing...
My son is a living proof to me. Especially when I see that most of his schoolfriends, who are usually treated by antibiotics, are (much) more vulnerable to common infections than him.
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blackolero le only Frank Black / Pixies site 100% in français |
Edited by - Frog in the Sand on 05/25/2006 10:30:32 |
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lonely persuader
= Cult of Ray =
Ireland
488 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2006 : 10:33:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Llamadance
It has been shown that water has a 'memory' of structures that it retains despite dilution. Whether that has anything to do with homeopathy, I don't know.
[edit] for info - http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn3817
Pain is temporary, quitting is forever.
Similar to bienvinste stuff. That has now been discredited. A french scientist that got an article published in nature. Nature then had to print a retraction stating that the experiments were not repeatable basically. Can be career threating stuff? |
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mosleyk
= Cult of Ray =
USA
607 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2006 : 10:37:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Newo
Many, not all, state doctors I are wonderful at treating trauma but not much else besides symptomatic treatments, which is what happens when you´re working with this primitive view of the human body as simple meat machine - and would be my bad if I went to one anyway, I feel a person is their own healer.
"Your own healer"...mortal mind...and "we are not material beings....you mean something along the lines of Christian Science? My husband was raised CS and most of his entire family still practices. I have read much of Science and Health (there companion book). Very interesting read really, but if you really want to be blown away with the power of prayer/yourself (if you don't want a god spin on the whole thing) read "Journey into Prayer" They used the scientific method to test the power of thought/prayer....I don't want to give away some of the results in the book, but they aren't exactly what you would expect.
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Ziggy
* Dog in the Sand *
United Kingdom
2494 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2006 : 11:06:33
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| There's an awful lot of bad science around, and just as many people willing to believe in it and fork out money to charlatans. |
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Frog in the Sand
-+ Le premiere frog +-
France
2715 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2006 : 11:07:21
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quote:
Originally posted by mosleyk
quote:
Originally posted by Frog in the Sand
What do you mean by "what kind"?
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blackolero le only Frank Black / Pixies site 100% in français
Sorry I was unclear. I mean what kind of remedy(s) did she use to treat your son.
Uh, I'll ask her :)
All I know is that she uses belladonna to treat high fever, and a mix of various substances, including drosera, to treat dry cough. Both are very effective in most cases.
I just saw you live in Oregon - may I ask you where, exactly? I loove that State.
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blackolero le only Frank Black / Pixies site 100% in français |
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mosleyk
= Cult of Ray =
USA
607 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2006 : 11:24:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Frog in the Sand
I just saw you live in Oregon - may I ask you where, exactly? I loove that State.
I must say I like Oregon too (actually I was born in Oregon ;-) I lived in Portland for 10 years and my husband and I moved almost two years ago to a 70 acre farm between Woodburn and Mollala. Do you have an area you were especially taken with? |
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Frog in the Sand
-+ Le premiere frog +-
France
2715 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2006 : 11:39:09
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Well, to say the truth I fell in love with every place I visited - Portland, the Powells bookstore, the Coast, the Cascade Range, the Columbia Gorge, Crater Lake, Multnomah Falls, the Painted Hills, Malheur County...
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blackolero le only Frank Black / Pixies site 100% in français |
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mosleyk
= Cult of Ray =
USA
607 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2006 : 12:07:16
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Sounds like you really explored the outdoors. If you ever make your way to Oregon again please feel free to drop me a line. I can tell you about all sorts of places off the beaten path, and some on the path for that matter. For instance, the Ape Caves around Mt. St. Helens and also Mt. Hood oh my gosh and just countless places to go.W e have a lovely view of Mt. Hood from our home. One of the many reasons we don't mind living so far out of Portland.
[URL=http://server3.pictiger.com/img/316625/picture-hosting/sunrise-010.php] [/URL] |
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Frog in the Sand
-+ Le premiere frog +-
France
2715 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2006 : 12:38:16
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Thanks. Something tells me you may well get an email from me before 2008 :)
Oh, and yes, Mt. Hood is a real wonder.
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blackolero le only Frank Black / Pixies site 100% in français |
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Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2006 : 14:03:38
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Coincidentally, I was reading about the Mt. Hood-Oregon relay today, 196 miles....sounds great fun. A guy I know on another forum is running it (well, I guess at least three legs of it.)
Pain is temporary, quitting is forever.
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mosleyk
= Cult of Ray =
USA
607 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2006 : 14:20:15
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Everyone I know who has done the "Hood to Coast" has had a blast! We have several groups here at work that do it every year. Maybe someday you can put together a UK team.
(sorry for going off topic in your thread) |
Edited by - mosleyk on 05/25/2006 14:20:41 |
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Frog in the Sand
-+ Le premiere frog +-
France
2715 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2006 : 14:27:40
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Back to the topic, I'd say that Oregon is an excellent alternative therapy to treat stress and black thoughts :)
(So is New Mexico, btw.)
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blackolero le only Frank Black / Pixies site 100% in français |
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2006 : 16:29:18
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quote:
mosleyk
= Cult of Ray =
USA
506 Posts
Posted - 05/25/2006 : 10:37:34
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They used the scientific method to test the power of thought/prayer....I don't want to give away some of the results in the book, but they aren't exactly what you would expect.
A Japanese physicist called Masaru Emoto experimented with exposing water to various words and emotions then froze it and photographed the crystals. When he said words with loving intention behind them, the water molecules rearranged themselves into beautiful symmetrical snowflake shapes and with words spoken with malevolent intent the molecules turned scattered and knotted and chaotic.
To go back offtopic, Oregon is a place I´ve always wanted to visit, I´ve had notions about it since reading lots of Ken Kesey and Raymond Carver when younger. A Californian friend here sez one town she´d like to live in at some stage is Eugene, and she told me about in Portland a cyclist got killed at an intersection so somebody painted a mandala over it to make cars slow down and drive around, which worked so well many intersections have them now.
--
Gravy boat! Stay in the now! |
Edited by - Newo on 05/25/2006 16:29:44 |
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Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2006 : 05:35:54
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quote:
Originally posted by lonely persuader
quote:
Originally posted by Llamadance
It has been shown that water has a 'memory' of structures that it retains despite dilution. Whether that has anything to do with homeopathy, I don't know.
[edit] for info - http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn3817
Pain is temporary, quitting is forever.
Similar to bienvinste stuff. That has now been discredited. A french scientist that got an article published in nature. Nature then had to print a retraction stating that the experiments were not repeatable basically. Can be career threating stuff?
Similar, yes, the same, no. Although this has been linked to homeopathy through Benveniste, it's independent of those claims - This is research done 15 years later, looking at hydrogen bonds within water and dilutions effects on them.
I'm merely trying to make the point that it's easy to be super-cynical, just as it's easy to have blind faith. The answer usually lies somewhere in between. (did I just type that??)
Mosleyk, I'd love to do something like that...maybe an fb.net relay;) The organisers also take entries from individuals and stick them with other individuals to make up teams. Strikes me as a great way of doing it.
Newo, do you have pictures of those crystals? Sounds fantastic.
Pain is temporary, quitting is forever.
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lonely persuader
= Cult of Ray =
Ireland
488 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2006 : 06:14:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Frog in the Sand
quote:
Originally posted by lonely persuader
quote:
Originally posted by Frog in the Sand
My girlfriend uses homeopathy to treat our son and I must say it usually works very well, and even better as a preventive treatment. Obviously it stimulates the immune system, unlike antibiotics.
Obviously??
there is no proof? the reasons the homeopathy quacks give are ridiculous? dilution to near infinite proportions (arse), the more dilute the more potent the effect will be (arse). sounds like any scam.
Oh, dilute it more, and it will be stronger!! sound like a good way to get infinite amounts of a cure!!!
Funny, 4-5 years ago I would have said the same thing...
My son is a living proof to me. Especially when I see that most of his schoolfriends, who are usually treated by antibiotics, are (much) more vulnerable to common infections than him.
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blackolero le only Frank Black / Pixies site 100% in français
I'm not neccessarly saying it's hokum. Just that the reason's they make up are bunk and until it is shown to have an effect (which it has not as yet, and you don't even have to know why), it should not be taken seriously. Its common sense really. Anecdotal evidence does not persuade me. |
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dr.Evil
- FB Fan -
63 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2006 : 06:49:10
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quote:
Originally posted by lonely persuader
There's a possibility that they could work but they have not been proven using evidence based medicine so, NO, these "alternative therapies" should not be available on national health services, until there is a statistically significant positive effect when using them.
And what, then, is evidence based? The concept is rotten to the core and allthough the intention might once have been a good one, the best evidence today suggests that most of the evidence in existence is plagued and flawed by uncool funding and methodology, sometimes even coupled with straight-out lying, cheating and disclosure of vital information. That's an evidence-based evaluation for you. |
Edited by - dr.Evil on 05/26/2006 06:52:09 |
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lonely persuader
= Cult of Ray =
Ireland
488 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2006 : 07:25:04
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I would like to know if your doctorate is medical or philosophical in nature Dr. Evil.
If you have any other methodology to measure causality, I would like to hear it. Evidence-based medicine may have flaws due to how its conducted (they're are people involved who make mistakes etc) but the concept is sound and the best available. Lets go back to the witch-doctor and voodo ages.
> the best evidence today suggests that most of the evidence in existence is plagued and flawed
What a contradictory sentence!! Lovily paradoxical argument. |
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2006 : 07:32:28
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Holistic medicine can be evidence based as well. Energy reiki blah blah I don't know so much about but many natural remedies are.
forum ebook: end of miles |
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lonely persuader
= Cult of Ray =
Ireland
488 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2006 : 07:37:51
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> Holistic medicine can be evidence based as well
Indeed. Evidence based just means that you have significant evidence to support the fact that it aids recovery. |
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Frog in the Sand
-+ Le premiere frog +-
France
2715 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2006 : 07:42:37
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quote:
Originally posted by lonely persuader
quote:
Originally posted by Frog in the Sand
quote:
Originally posted by lonely persuader
quote:
Originally posted by Frog in the Sand
My girlfriend uses homeopathy to treat our son and I must say it usually works very well, and even better as a preventive treatment. Obviously it stimulates the immune system, unlike antibiotics.
Obviously??
there is no proof? the reasons the homeopathy quacks give are ridiculous? dilution to near infinite proportions (arse), the more dilute the more potent the effect will be (arse). sounds like any scam.
Oh, dilute it more, and it will be stronger!! sound like a good way to get infinite amounts of a cure!!!
Funny, 4-5 years ago I would have said the same thing...
My son is a living proof to me. Especially when I see that most of his schoolfriends, who are usually treated by antibiotics, are (much) more vulnerable to common infections than him.
I'm not neccessarly saying it's hokum. Just that the reason's they make up are bunk and until it is shown to have an effect (which it has not as yet, and you don't even have to know why), it should not be taken seriously. Its common sense really. Anecdotal evidence does not persuade me.
I'm not trying to convince anyone, that's just my 2 cents. Please feel free to consider me a naive, stupid and/or irresponsible father, but note that my opinion, unlike yours probably, is based on personal and empirical experience.
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blackolero le only Frank Black / Pixies site 100% in français |
Edited by - Frog in the Sand on 05/26/2006 07:43:37 |
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2006 : 07:45:45
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LP -I don't really see what you're arguing if I'm honest. You seem to be saying all such things are bad because no one knows if they really work or how they really work... I think a lot can be said for many straight medical treatments too. You've lost me.
forum ebook: end of miles |
Edited by - starmekitten on 05/26/2006 07:46:25 |
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mosleyk
= Cult of Ray =
USA
607 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2006 : 07:53:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Newo
quote:
mosleyk
= Cult of Ray =
USA
506 Posts
Posted - 05/25/2006 : 10:37:34
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They used the scientific method to test the power of thought/prayer....I don't want to give away some of the results in the book, but they aren't exactly what you would expect.
A Japanese physicist called Masaru Emoto experimented with exposing water to various words and emotions then froze it and photographed the crystals. When he said words with loving intention behind them, the water molecules rearranged themselves into beautiful symmetrical snowflake shapes and with words spoken with malevolent intent the molecules turned scattered and knotted and chaotic.
To go back offtopic, Oregon is a place I´ve always wanted to visit, I´ve had notions about it since reading lots of Ken Kesey and Raymond Carver when younger. A Californian friend here sez one town she´d like to live in at some stage is Eugene, and she told me about in Portland a cyclist got killed at an intersection so somebody painted a mandala over it to make cars slow down and drive around, which worked so well many intersections have them now.
Gravy boat! Stay in the now!
I am familiar with that experiment. Ever hear of the movie "What the beap do we know" Um.....I might also add it was filmed in Oregon, and they also filmed scenes in the most awesome $2 movie house in Portland...the bagdad. http://www.mcmenamins.com/index.php?loc=9&id=177 ...anyway they cited the experiment in the movie
I can tell you more about Eugene if you would like, but I think I better start a new thread to be respectful of the topic at hand |
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lonely persuader
= Cult of Ray =
Ireland
488 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2006 : 08:57:30
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quote:
is based on personal and empirical experience.
Not empirical (im afraid) in a scientific sense. This is anecdotal evidence. |
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Topic |
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Alternative Therapies
