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hammerhands
* Dog in the Sand *

Canada
1594 Posts

Posted - 03/19/2006 : 04:46:16

(Dave Noisy will accept cheques, money orders or cash, I'm sure.)

Submitted for your amusement.

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[Message to CD Universe March 07, 2006, approx. 2:00am]
[This was a webform that included a box for the order number]

I placed an order, paid via paypal and received a confirmation from paypal but the order does not show in order status. Has something gone wrong?

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March 07, 2006 8:20 AM

Dear [Christopher],

Please provide me with your order number.

Thank you for shopping at CD Universe.

[Zandra]
Customer Service Representative

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March 07, 2006 10:03 AM

The confirmation email from Paypal says:
Item/Product Name: CD Universe Order Number [CDU#1]

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March 07, 2006 10:20 AM

Dear [Christopher],

This order number is not valid. I have checked under your email [email address] and no new orders have been placed under this account.

Thank you for shopping at CD Universe.

[Zandra]
Customer Service Representative

-----
March 07, 2006 11:07 AM

Did you receive my payment? Do I have a credit?

Transaction ID: [PP#1]
Total: $243.83 USD

I've placed the order again [CDU#2], previously when I had a credit it showed on the payment screen, I do not see a credit currently. I have not paid for the order yet.

Thank you for your time.

[Chris].

-----
March 08, 2006 8:10 AM

Dear [Christopher],

Your order was successfully placed. However, we have not yet received your payment.

Thank you for shopping at CD Universe.

[Zandra]
Customer Service Representative

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March 08, 2006 8:30 AM

You did not receive 243.83 via Paypal on March 6th, and I do not have a credit?

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March 08, 2006 9:03 AM

Dear [Christopher],

No, your payment has not been received. Provide me with the paypal transaction number and we will further investigate.

Thank you for shopping at CD Universe.

[Zandra]
Customer Service Representative

-----
March 08, 2006 9:09 AM

The Paypal transaction number is [PP#1]

Please review the history in this email.

Thank you for your time.

[Chris].

-----
[Webform Message to Paypal March 08, 2006 approx. 6:00 pm]
[There is a limit on the allowable length]

customer subject: Is this the way it should work?

I have had a most aggravating time trying to purchase CDs.

On 24/02 I transferred money to my Paypal account.

On 06/03 I submitted an order with CD Universe [CDU#1], paid with Paypal [PP#1]. The money was converted from Canadian to US Dollars.

The order never showed up in CD Universe's Order Status. On 07/03 I sent an email and received a reply that the order number was invalid. After 5 emails my money was refunded on 08/03 [PP#2]. The money was then converted from US to Canadian Dollars.

The cost of these two transactions was $12.01cdn. (284.92cdn paid, 272.91cdn refunded).

When I resubmitted my CD Universe order [CDU#3] the amount for the transaction [PP#3] was 287.10, I lost another $2.18cdn for a total of $14.19cdn, for nothing.

For further aggravation, this extra money has put my account in the red and money ($2.94) needs to come from my bank (another 9 days?).

I will forward a copy of this text to CD Universe.

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March 10, 2006 8:13 AM

Dear [Chris J Smith],

Hello my name is [Brian], I will be happy to assist you with your question regarding your payment.

First, I would like to apologize for the delay in responding to your service request.

When you send a credit card funded payment, and that payment is refunded, denied, or canceled, the amount returned to your credit card may be different than the original amount of the transaction due to the fluctuation in the exchange rate.

Please note:

- When a payment is refunded, denied, or canceled within 24 hours of initiating the payment, you will be credited the exact same amount

- When it has been over 24 hours, the conversion rate may fluctuate causing a different amount to be credited

- Any loss in conversion rate fees is due to normal market fluctuation. PayPal is not able to reimburse for loss due to conversion rate differences

If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact us again. I hope that you have a great day [Chris]!

Thank you for being part of the PayPal community.

Community satisfaction and your experience with PayPal are very important to me. You may receive a survey from our third party vendor, Benchmark Portal, about the service you received.

I would appreciate any feedback that you can provide.

Sincerely,
[Brian]
PayPal Global Services
PayPal, an eBay Company

-----
March 11, 2006 11:03 AM
This was not a credit card funded payment, it was a Paypal account funded payment, what are the rules for that type of transaction?

It would be virtually impossible for a refund to happen on the same day that a payment was sent, it is almost always the customer that initiates a refund. That's a policy with little value.

Paypal has a built-in service charge in currency conversions. I can tell because the same day I received my refund I resubmitted my order and payment. I received $272.91 cad for $243.83 usd and I paid $287.10 cad for $243.83 usd. This would be a fluctuation of 4.4 cents in the Canadian dollar, but according to a Reuters report for March 8th the fluctuation was closer to 0.44 cents, "The currency finished at C$1.1563 to the U.S. dollar, or 86.48 U.S. cents, down from C$1.1505 to the U.S. dollar, or 86.92 U.S. cents, at Tuesday's close." That means that Paypal made $14.19 cad for no work. The money was in my Paypal account, the money was still in my Paypal account. The Canadian Dollar was between 86.51 and 86.21 U.S. cents on March 5th, according to Bloomberg.com.

It is the continuing matter of wasted time that is my main concern. Yesterday funds were withdrawn from my bank, in essence Paypal has the money, yet CD Universe will not see the funds until Friday. One of the items in my order is listed as having only one copy left and the order will not ship until all items are available. This is a purchase I decided to make and initiated on February 24th when I transferred funds to Paypal. It has been 15 days and the payment will not get to CD Universe until day 21. Then, if anyone else purchases that CD it may be a month or more before they have another cd in stock, then allow two or more weeks for shipping and it will be summer.

The account was a short $2.94 cad to make the latest payment, that appears to be the cost of a one month delay.

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March 11, 2006 10:52 PM

Dear [Christopher Smith],

Thank you for contacting PayPal.
If the transaction is funded from your PayPal account the refund goes back to your PayPal account. That refund is still initiated by the seller so there is a possibility to get it the same day but most likely it is at the seller discretion. For the currency conversion, I understand that our currency is different from the conversion market, but unfortunately, we are not able to change it. As far as transfer, once it leaves your bank we still have a processing time because the money still get transferred through the federal reserve that we respond to and also it get reviewed for possible fraudulent bank use before getting in your PayPal account.
Thanks again for writing, and thank you for being part of the PayPal community.

Sincerely,
[Lulu]
PayPal Resolution Services
PayPal, an eBay Company

-----
March 12, 2006 12:07 AM

This is not satisfactory and these are not separate issues. Please read the history in this email carefully and understand my position. Everything is here presented.

Paypal took $14.19 of my money for no reason and no work. I want my $14.19 back.

When my $14.19 is back in my Paypal account there will be enough money to pay CD Universe, which I want done immediately.

CD Universe's error has caused a 2 day delay and Paypal, by taking my $14.19 has caused further time to be lost. There is an unknown deadline which when crossed will exacerbate the loss so it is imperative that this be resolved quickly. Paypal can work with CD Universe to retrieve some of the time they have wasted, perhaps by expediting shipping.

The more I look at these transactions the more unfairness I see. The exchange rate for my refund was stated as $1.1193 cdn which is $0.8934 US. The exchange rate for my payment, which was done 1 hour later was $0.849303 US. I've noticed that in both cases the pennies were rounded in Paypal's favour (0.849303 * 243.83 = 287.0942, 1.1193 * 243.83 = 272.9189).

[Chris].

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March 12, 2006 10:44 AM

Dear [Chris J Smith],

Thank you for taking the time to contact us with your concerns. I am happy to assist you further.

The currency in which a transaction is completed is a matter for negotiation between the buyer and the seller, and PayPal has no control over this process. If you insist on only paying or receiving payment denominated in your home currency, please make this clear to your counterparty when you place a bid, make an offer, or advertise an item.

PayPal is not a currency dealer and therefore must purchase foreign currencies from its bank. PayPal receives a quoted wholesale rate from its bank [twice a day], and adds a 2.5% spread above this rate to determine the retail foreign exchange rate that is applied to customers who make a transaction that involves a currency conversion (such as a payment in Euros from a U.S. dollar balance), or a withdrawal of dollars by a U.K. user to his local bank account (the dollars must be converted to pounds sterling before withdrawal).

The 2.5% spread that PayPal charges is competitive with most multi-currency credit card transactions, in which Visa or MasterCard charge a 1% spread above their wholesale exchange rate, and the card-issuing bank typically charges an additional spread of 1-3%. Visa and MasterCard benefit from a lower wholesale rate than PayPal, but PayPal seeks to keep its foreign exchange rates competitive with credit card transactions and other on-line payment service providers such as Western Union. Because PayPal does not charge a high fixed fee for sending international payments, the total cost of sending an international payment through PayPal is still lower than many international multi-currency bank transfers.

Please keep in mind that some of the published rates only apply to large transactions that are valued at U.S. $1,000,000.00 or more. A more applicable comparison for consumers is the exchange rates quoted at airports or other consumer currency exchange shops.

PayPal allows its customers to transfer any amount that is U.S. $25.00 or more, with the same conversion rate, to the bank account and the funds are automatically converted into the local currency for approved bank accounts.
For more detailed information on the exchange rate click [website] or copy and paste the entire link into the address bar.

Thank you for being part of the PayPal community.

Community satisfaction and your experience with PayPal are very important to me. You may receive a survey from our third party vendor, Benchmark Portal, about the service you received.

I would appreciate any feedback that you can provide.

Sincerely,
PayPal, an eBay Company

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March 12, 2006 1:19 PM

My emails continue to receive superficial reading and responses. Once again I tell you to read the history in this email extremely carefully, understand my position and compensate me.

[Chris].

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March 12, 2006 10:14 PM

Dear [Chris J Smith],

Thank you for contacting PayPal.

On March 6th, PayPal purchased $USD from it's bank with the $CAD in your PayPal balance (and vice versa on March 8th). I read the email history and I understand that your transaction with CD Universe was not satisfactory, but PayPal is simply not able to reimburse for loss due to currency conversion.

Thank you for being part of the PayPal community.

Community satisfaction and your experience with PayPal are very important to me. You may receive a survey from our third party vendor, Benchmark Portal, about the service you received.

I would appreciate any feedback that you can provide.

Sincerely,
[Stephen]
PayPal Global Services
PayPal, an eBay Company

-----
March 13, 2006 12:52 PM

I would like to point out what is factually wrong with the latest response.

The loss was due to service charges, not currency conversion. As was stated in the reply from March 12th, "PayPal...adds a 2.5% spread above this rate".

CD Universe did not get any of my $14.19 that Paypal took. It [is] not CD Universe but Paypal who has delayed my payment to CD Universe. It took 2 days to resolve my problems with CD Universe, this is the 6th day I have been corresponding with Paypal.

There is nothing stopping Paypal from refunding my money, except Paypal's own unwillingness.

Finally, Paypal still does not understand my position. A response in which Paypal understood my position would [ ] begin, "Dear sir, Paypal acknowledges that it charged you 3 times for one transaction. Paypal does not consider this ethical and has refunded $14.19 to your account." It would continue, "Paypal acknowledges the delay its actions have caused as well as the urgency to complete the transaction and would like to note that the payment to CD Universe has been sent. Paypal and CD Universe also acknowledge the continuing delays in resolving this issue and have upgraded the shipping of your order to compensate for time lost." It would conclude, "Your ordeal has highlighted an error in the way we conduct service response. Our service team has been advised that it is of the highest importance to thoroughly read the history and information contained in emails and to understand our clients' positions and questions prior to responding."

I have considered the mechanics of currency conversion as it relates to my refund and repayment on March 8. Having a guaranteed exchange rate, as noted on March 12th, "PayPal receives a quoted wholesale rate from its bank [twice a day]" Paypal only needs to exchange the variance between the amount of U.S. currency converted to Canadian funds (Tus) verses the amount of Canadian currency converted to U.S. funds (Tcdn). The total service fee (Ts) expressed as a percentage (Ps) can be found Ps = Ts/(Tus - Tcdn). In my case Tus - Tcdn = $243.83us - $243.83us = $0.00 and Ps = $14.19/0 which is infinite.

[Chris Smith]

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March 13, 2006 11:21 PM

Dear [Chris J Smith],

Thank you for contacting PayPal.

Yes, the rate PayPal presents includes a small risk factor as well as a currency conversion fee. This rate is applied whenever a member's currency is converted and does not change if the transaction is unsuccessful.

Thank you for being part of the PayPal community.

Community satisfaction and your experience with PayPal are very important to me. You may receive a survey from our third party vendor, Benchmark Portal, about the service you received.

I would appreciate any feedback that you can provide.

Sincerely,
[Stephen]
PayPal Global Services
PayPal, an eBay Company

-----
[Message From CD Universe]
March 14, 2006 3:00 PM

Dear [Chris],

Your paypal payment was refunded back to your paypal account. You must visit our site and replace the order and resubmit payment.

Let us know if you need any further assistance.

Thank you for shopping at CD Universe.

[Zandra]
Customer Service Representative

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March 15, 2006 3:54 AM

Thank you [Zandra], I did resubmit the order that same day [CDU#2] and the payment is pending.

Can you tell me, one of the items in my order says "Only 1 available", is this copy being held for me or will I be SOL if someone else purchases it?

CD Universe should know how Paypal treats its (CD Universe's) customers.

When I sent my payment to CD Universe, Paypal charged me. When CD Universe refunded my payment and again when I re-paid CD Universe one hour later, Paypal charged me again and again ($14.19). These charges caused my account to be $2.94 short for my order, so the funds are being transferred from my bank, which will take 9 days!

[The] dialog on this matter with Paypal has been farcical, Paypal's responses have been evasive, erroneous and duplicitous.

Paypal has admitted there is a service charge in its exchange rates and then said it "can't" refund money lost due to "currency fluctuation".

Paypal said if the refund had happened within 24 hours I would have received back the full amount. I told them it would be nearly impossible for that to happen as it is often the customer who initiates the refund (the retailer then has to investigate the matter). They said "That refund is still initiated by the seller so there is a possibility to get it the same day but most likely it is at the seller discretion."

And they even blamed my unhappiness on CD Universe.

I originally began conducting business with CD Universe because they offered Paypal payments (I have previously experienced credit card fraud), but I have become wholly disillusioned with the ethics of that entity as a consequence of this transaction.

If CD Universe would like to see the full text of my communication with Paypal I can forward it to you, if nothing else it is worth a good laugh.

[Chris].

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March 15, 2006 8:40 AM

Dear [Christopher],

One available means that our suppliers only have one in their inventory and it can go on backorder at any time. Unfortunately, we cannot guarantee that the one will be for your order. However, we do our best to obtain it for you.

The payment recently sent will reach us shortly and will cover your order.
Unfortunately, we are not responsible for any fees paypal charges you for exchange rates or service. Our refunds are usually issued within 24-48 hours.

If you no longer wish to use paypal, we can also accept checks or money orders is U.S Funds drawn on a U.S bank.

We apologize for any inconvenience.

Thank you for shopping at CD Universe.

[Zandra]
Customer Service Representative

PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <

Poland
4698 Posts

Posted - 03/19/2006 : 05:03:45

erm, so what's the general gist of it all...

Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =

Canada
11687 Posts

Posted - 03/19/2006 : 10:58:47

Just the usual corporate entity taking money for a service fee, trying to claim that it was a result of something else and beyond their control, and answering questions as to 'why' they are keeping money by saying retarded things like, "Unfortunately, Paypal cannot refund bla bla bla". Don't tell me unfortunately when it's your own policy. If it's unfortunate and it's your policy, it's a bad policy and do something about it.

I wouldn't blame them for holding the difference in conversion rates between the days, but for them to hold their (apparently) 100% service fee as a result (.44 cent exchange = 4.4 cent exchange) and say there's "nothing we can do about it" is ridiculous and ludicrous.

Google's working on an alternative to Paypal, hopefully it'll be better.