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misleadtheworld
* Dog in the Sand *
United Kingdom
1222 Posts |
 Posted - 02/05/2006 : 03:32:47
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I'm sure most of you have heard the furore going on about these cartoons. If not: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4682560.stm
So what does everyone think? Is this a simple exercise of press freedom, or is it purely for provoking anger amongst the Islamic world?
I'm siding with the latter. Relations between the Islamic world and the rest of the world aren't really fantastic at the moment, and this really does not help. I think the press have gone too far with this. Equally, I think the reactions in Syria and Lebanon are awful too. Whether or not anyone was hurt in the attacks on the embassies, those people --the country's government, even-- are not the responsible parties. I think certain factions within both the media and the islamic people need to express some common sense and savoir-faire, for they are only pushing the two worlds apart.
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Carl
- A 'Fifth' Catholic -
Ireland
11546 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2006 : 03:41:42
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The anger is understandable, given that even images of Mohammed are forbidden in Islam, but I think things have been taken a little too far.
It's interesting that the British government have just suffered a defeat over their religious hatred bill, which did go through but in a watered-down version. If the original proposal had of been approved, comedians could have been prosecuted for mocking religion-Rowan Atkinson was among those who spoke out against it.
 pas de dutchie! |
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2006 : 04:56:40
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quote:
misleadtheworld Posted - 02/05/2006 : 03:32:47
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for they are only pushing the two worlds apart.
That´s the point of the exercise. Last year I lived with a bunch of Moroccans who found the notion of drawing any human forms scandalising, and anyone who commissions cartoons of Mohammed for publication knows exactly what kind of reaction they´re going for.
Although: I can see another side to the story, in that anyone who gets riled up over cartoons needs to get laid or spend some time with a good nonreligious book in a warm bath.
--
Buy your best friend flowers. Buy your lover a beer. Covet thy father. Covet thy neighbour's father. Honour thy lover's beer. Covet thy neighbour's father's wife's sister. Take her to bingo night. |
Edited by - Newo on 02/05/2006 05:06:04 |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2006 : 08:31:35
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| The more I learn about the Islamic worldview, the further apart the better I say. If a group can be prompted to mass violence by cartoons, give us more cartoons. As it stands now, the price of acceptance of Islam into the world community is too high. These people are lunatics. |
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Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2006 : 08:59:56
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I pretty much agree with Newo. When publishing the cartoons, the media must have known what kind of reaction it could provoke. Saying that, I didn't know about Islam's attitude to the depiction of Mohammed.
The reaction of some Muslim's is obviously disproportionate, but then I've seen disproportionate reactions from Christians as well.
Erebus, to suggest all people who follow Islam are lunatics is probably worse than saying through a cartoon that they are all suicide bombers.
It's at times like these that I really miss living in a multicultural area of the country, without a range of people to talk about these issues with, to see how they really feel about it all.
That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2006 : 09:11:15
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We are so so very far away from the principles laid out by the Quran. Groups of radicals fueled by the press are ruining the peaceful intent of this religion.
__________
Don't believe the hype. |
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jediroller
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1718 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2006 : 10:07:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Carl
The anger is understandable, given that even images of Mohammed are forbidden in Islam
This should apply to Muslims only. Why should a non-Muslim cartoonist follow the rules of Islam? Should everybody follow the rules of every single religion just in case we might upset anyone?
--> FREE MUSIC <-- |
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misleadtheworld
* Dog in the Sand *
United Kingdom
1222 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2006 : 10:10:51
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I agree Jedi, but I still think there must be an element of respect from non-Islamic countries.
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Edited by - misleadtheworld on 02/05/2006 10:12:52 |
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ivandivel
= Cult of Ray =
394 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2006 : 11:18:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
If a group can be prompted to mass violence by cartoons, give us more cartoons.
I understand your response. Cartoons and small story books are excellent ways of paving the way for war. Let's bring it to the security council and don't forget Powell, I am sure he'd be real proud to have another opportunity to do that again.
This debate has to a large extent been controlled by muslim extremists and ultra-right wingers. Free speech is a fundament of some democraties in the western world, but it has to be combined with a sense of responsibility. The second printing of these cartoons had NOTHING to do with excercizing freedom of speech, but was printed in a far-right religious magazine, according to their editor, in order to provoke - much in accordance with Erebus' statement above.
The real problem in europe right now is how extremists on both side can't wait to add more fuel to the fire and "give us more cartoons". These fuck-ups represent the real threats to "national security" at the moment. |
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Frog in the Sand
-+ Le premiere frog +-
France
2715 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2006 : 11:31:26
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Mr. Jedi sums up my thoughts pretty well.
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"I want to change the world but it's changing me!" |
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2006 : 11:48:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
These people are lunatics.
Your sweeping statements irritate me.
There has been here, of recent times, a commotion with the BNP. The BNP leader (whose name I never bothered to learn) has been taken to court because of making statements designed to incite racial hatred. He got off but he is going back to court to face the charges again in an appeal I believe.
I was listening to the radio about this whole debacle and the problem of free speech came up. One woman said that free speech isn't worth having if that freedom of speech is abused to the causes of creating racial hatred. I almost agree with her.
As far as the intent of the cartoons are concerned it almost pales in comparison with the effect. Satire does make stereotypes and unflattering ones at that of situations and whilst it can be amusing to most; it will always be offensive to some.
It was a very foolish thing to do. The "should be able to take a joke/ not get upset over cartoons" argument doesn't apply really in the current climate and taking into account the fact Islam frowns upon pictures of the prophet as well. It's like blowing smoke into the face of someone who just lost a loved one to cancer. It's not the done thing.
In my opinion it is stupidly offensive to depict muhammed as a terrorist and to tar all muslims with the same brush like that, especially the way racial hatred is so prevelant in society nowadays after the acts of terrorists. Muslim people who are completely removed from the goings on of the extremist few are the ones who suffer. For the ones who are dangerous it's just an excuse and a validation to be so.
The reaction to it is an over-reaction but again, the extremists fucking it all up.
So many people on both sides are going to leap on this as justification for so many things now and it's very sad.
Thats what I think. |
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Superabounder
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1041 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2006 : 11:57:42
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My initial reaction is to agree with Erebus that these people are lunatics, at least the ones enacting this violence. However, if taken in the context of the US occupation of Iraq, the drone bombings of recent weeks, and the overall hatred for much of the west because of all this, it becomes more understandable. I can't understand it completely...it's an effin' cartoon for crissake. But it's not as if a hindu would burn down the american embassy because of a chik-fil-a billboard depicting a cow misspelling words. If you already have a bruise and someone smacks you on it, it hurts a little worse. Same thing for these people.
I tend to think of human beings as huge rubbery test tubes, too, with chemical reactions seething inside |
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Angry Elvis
- FB Fan -
USA
68 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2006 : 13:30:19
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oh noes 111 the muslims are burning stuff down again again 11
there's no anger like righteous anger eh?
"However, if taken in the context of the US occupation of Iraq, the drone bombings of recent weeks, and the overall hatred for much of the west because of all this, it becomes more understandable."
i know a bit about angry (heh,heh)
is my context going to make things more understandable?
Muslims fly commercial airliners into buildings in New York City. No Muslim outrage.
Muslim officials block the exit where school girls are trying to escape a burning building because their faces were exposed. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims cut off the heads of three teenaged girls on their way to school in Indonesia. A Christian school. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims murder teachers trying to teach Muslim children in Iraq. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims murder over 80 tourists with car bombs outside cafes and hotels in Egypt. No Muslim outrage.
A Muslim attacks a missionary children's school in India. Kills six. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims slaughter hundreds of children and teachers in Beslan, Russia. Muslims shoot children in the back. No Muslim outrage.
Let's go way back. Muslims kidnap and kill athletes at the Munich Summer Olympics. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims fire rocket-propelled grenades into schools full of children in Israel. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims murder more than 50 commuters in attacks on London subways and busses. Over 700 are injured. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims massacre dozens of innocents at a Passover Seder. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims murder innocent vacationers in Bali. No Muslim outrage.
Muslim newspapers publish anti-Semitic cartoons. No Muslim outrage
Muslims are involved, on one side or the other, in almost every one of the 125+ shooting wars around the world. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims beat the charred bodies of Western civilians with their shoes, then hang them from a bridge. No Muslim outrage.
Newspapers in Denmark and Norway publish cartoons depicting Mohammed. **Muslims are outraged.**
Dead children. Dead tourists. Dead teachers. Dead doctors and nurses. Death, destruction and mayhem around the world at the hands of fundamentalist Muslims .. no Muslim outrage ... but publish a cartoon depicting Mohammed with a bomb in his turban and all hell breaks loose.
not all muslims are terrorists,,,,,,,,,,,,,but a whole hell of a lot of terrorists are muslims
,,,,,,,,,,, just saying
***i'm just a hunka hunka burnin love*** |
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2006 : 13:58:41
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How do you know there was no muslim outrage at the events you listed?
I believe true followers of islam would indeed be outraged.
But that doesn't make for as interesting news as a group of muslims burning the Danish embassy over cartoons.
And it certainly doesn't coincide with the media's depiction of muslims as terrorists, radicals and evildoers.
__________
Don't believe the hype. |
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hammerhands
* Dog in the Sand *
Canada
1594 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2006 : 14:07:19
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Never let restrictions increase on the freedom of speech no matter how pissed off people get.
This is how it is envisioned to work, there is now a dialogue, if it takes an extreme amount of provocation that is fine. |
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Monsieur
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1688 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2006 : 15:21:53
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I will not try to reply to Erebus as his lack of education and maturity make it impossible to find a common language. Let him decide whether to accept the muslims in the "world community" or not. I am pretty sure that more than 99% of muslims (and people in general) are better accepted in this world community than Erebus.
I don't think this has anything to do with the freedom of speech. That's what politicians are trying to make it look like, but it is simply not true. I don't think that many of muslims who are angry about these cartoons are angry because it is against their religion to represent Mohammad. It is even more against their religion to make, say, a porn movie (as it is in other main religions). Yet noone has tried to burn down Rocco Sifredi. They are angry because these cartoons were an insult, because they were describing terrorism as inherent to their religion. How would Americans react if LE MONDE's headline was "All Americans are fat assholes"? I am pretty sure that would create anti-French riots in the USA. What happened in Denmark is even more offensive as they were not saying "all muslims are terrorists" - they were saying that islam=terrorism. The prime minister of Denmark then refused to apologise and refused to receive a delegation of muslim representatives. I know Denmark very well and love the country, but there is a strong racism from a part of its population and neo-nazi groups are more powerful than anywhere else (I remember seeing "Jüden Raus" graffitis very often).
I have a muslim first name, yet I was born in Europe, as well as all my ancestors. How can you talk about a "muslim" point of view? Are Norwegians and Colombians similar just because they are christians?
I was deeply shocked by the events of 9/11, especially when I saw pictures of people jumping from the buildings in fire. Because, you see, I saw this very same thing in 1992, in Sarajevo which was then my hometown. Except that the people who were jumping out of the window were mainly muslims. In 1995, 8,000 people were executed in two days (the whole male population of a little town, some of them 14 years old) merely because they were muslims (most of them only having a muslim name, not practising). There was quite a difference in press coverage. After 9/11, the American embassy in Sarajevo was covered by flowers.
People who are fuelling this debate are those who derive some profit from it. Certainly not peaceful people who find it hard enough dealing with everyday life.
I will show you fear in a handful of dust |
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PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2006 : 15:25:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Monsieur
I am pretty sure that more than 99% of muslims (and people in general) are better accepted in this world community than Erebus.
I will show you fear in a handful of dust
lol, pwned. best line ever.
Your mum |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2006 : 15:36:14
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In my head I've been contrasting this whole affair with the Gilbert & George exhibition that's on in London at the moment, which includes some fairly sweeping condemnations of Christian (specifically Catholic) ideals. These are pretty offensive to most people, yet all the demonstration we get is Anne Widdecombe falling out of her pram.
I'm not sure whether this is true or not, but for conjecture's sake, does this express a difference in attitude between the two religions? I was reading an article about the cartoons (Guardian maybe?) which made the point that the 'tolerant' Christians allow themselves to be mocked without causing uproar, but instead of the satire blowing over, it's actually increased. Maybe the Muslim's have taken the right line in not allowing themselves, or what they believe, to be defamed? I'm not sure either way.
 I have joined the Cult Of Frank/And I have dearly paid |
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Monsieur
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1688 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2006 : 15:57:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Cheeseman1000
In my head I've been contrasting this whole affair with the Gilbert & George exhibition that's on in London at the moment, which includes some fairly sweeping condemnations of Christian (specifically Catholic) ideals. These are pretty offensive to most people, yet all the demonstration we get is Anne Widdecombe falling out of her pram.
I'm not sure whether this is true or not, but for conjecture's sake, does this express a difference in attitude between the two religions? I was reading an article about the cartoons (Guardian maybe?) which made the point that the 'tolerant' Christians allow themselves to be mocked without causing uproar, but instead of the satire blowing over, it's actually increased. Maybe the Muslim's have taken the right line in not allowing themselves, or what they believe, to be defamed? I'm not sure either way.
I have joined the Cult Of Frank/And I have dearly paid
Cheesy, let's take an example of a guy who has a little weight problem. Sometimes he will make a little joke about himself being fat, it is good as he is accepting himself. Now take this fat guy into a "Gattaca"-like world. All this very slim people want to get rid of him because he is different. And then they start making bad jokes about him. I am pretty sure this will be more difficult for our fat guy than the first situation.
I will show you fear in a handful of dust |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2006 : 02:33:02
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I beg your pardon?
I have joined the Cult Of Frank/And I have dearly paid |
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Carl
- A 'Fifth' Catholic -
Ireland
11546 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2006 : 03:07:00
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quote:
Originally posted by jediroller
quote:
Originally posted by Carl
The anger is understandable, given that even images of Mohammed are forbidden in Islam
This should apply to Muslims only. Why should a non-Muslim cartoonist follow the rules of Islam? Should everybody follow the rules of every single religion just in case we might upset anyone?
--> FREE MUSIC <--
I'm just saying I understand why Muslims are angry, given that Islam forbids images of Mohammed, I'm not saying I agree with people who are calling for violence. Seeing a women on the news with a sign with a message calling for people to be massacred is fucking nuts to me. As I said, (and you cut out this bit in the quote) I think things have been taken a litle too far.
Erebus, you can't label all Muslim people crazy. It's not easy for people in the Muslim world to reject Islam, it's obviously quite a strict religion and of course it has a bearing of the culture of the Middle East and a lot of people from Middle Eastern countries. There is extremism everywhere in the world.
pas de dutchie! |
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jediroller
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1718 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2006 : 03:22:29
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Crowds are stupid, I think we can all agree on that.
quote:
As I said, (and you cut out this bit in the quote) I think things have been taken a litle too far.
Yeah, sorry about the cut, but my comment wasn't directed at you, it's just that argument about images of Muhammad being forbidden that gets me. If you think a cartoon is stupid or offensive then just say so, or sue the paper, or fucking get over it.
--> FREE MUSIC <-- |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2006 : 03:26:06
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quote:
Erebus, you can't label all Muslim people crazy. It's not easy for people in the Muslim world to reject Islam, it's obviously quite a strict religion and of course it has a bearing of the culture of the Middle East and a lot of people from Middle Eastern countries. There is extremism everywhere in the world.
Some people would argue Erebus' opinions are as extreme as these.
I have joined the Cult Of Frank/And I have dearly paid |
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2006 : 03:39:31
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quote:
Cheeseman1000 Posted - 02/06/2006 : 03:26:06
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quote:
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Erebus, you can't label all Muslim people crazy. It's not easy for people in the Muslim world to reject Islam, it's obviously quite a strict religion and of course it has a bearing of the culture of the Middle East and a lot of people from Middle Eastern countries. There is extremism everywhere in the world.
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Some people would argue Erebus' opinions are as extreme as these.
I´m reading a Milan Kundera book in which he says ´hate traps us by binding us together with our enemies.´ That´s the way a control sytem spreads like a virus - whatever you fight, you become.
--
Buy your best friend flowers. Buy your lover a beer. Covet thy father. Covet thy neighbour's father. Honour thy lover's beer. Covet thy neighbour's father's wife's sister. Take her to bingo night. |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2006 : 04:09:13
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Have you seen Erebus' beard? It's a sure sign he's headed down the root of fundamental Islam.
By the way Owen, sorry to go off topic, why do you use the funny apostrophe instead of the normal one? ` instead of '?
I have joined the Cult Of Frank/And I have dearly paid |
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2006 : 04:10:30
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Spanish keyboards are weird.
--
Buy your best friend flowers. Buy your lover a beer. Covet thy father. Covet thy neighbour's father. Honour thy lover's beer. Covet thy neighbour's father's wife's sister. Take her to bingo night. |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2006 : 04:14:56
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Figures.
I have joined the Cult Of Frank/And I have dearly paid |
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Carl
- A 'Fifth' Catholic -
Ireland
11546 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2006 : 04:18:24
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quote:
Originally posted by jediroller
Yeah, sorry about the cut, but my comment wasn't directed at you
I am deeply offended! Death to the infidels!
That Milan Kundera guy sounds like a very wise bloke, Newo. |
Edited by - Carl on 02/06/2006 04:19:31 |
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2006 : 04:21:06
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| sounds like a hippy to me |
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Frog in the Sand
-+ Le premiere frog +-
France
2715 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2006 : 05:59:59
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Btw, can anyone explain me how these, uh, scandalous cartoons managed to go almost unnoticed for more than 3 months? :-o
-----
"I want to change the world but it's changing me!" |
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cassandra is
> Teenager of the Year <
France
4233 Posts |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
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cassandra is
> Teenager of the Year <
France
4233 Posts |
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Carl
- A 'Fifth' Catholic -
Ireland
11546 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2006 : 07:08:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Frog in the Sand
Btw, can anyone explain me how these, uh, scandalous cartoons managed to go almost unnoticed for more than 3 months? :-o
Really?! They werem't done for the paper? Obviously it's because they were put on the cover of the paper.
pas de dutchie! |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2006 : 07:08:29
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I don't know. It's a cartoon, and the whole reason it's offensive, supposedly, is that no images of Muhammed are supposed to be shown for fear of idolization. Nobody is idolizing this cartoon (at least not framing it and placing it over their kitchen door, though there perhaps IS a little idolization going on) and I don't think there's any risk of it. Further, I think the point being made is valid... a picture of Muhammed with a turban-bomb is about as ludicrous as making war/killing based on religious beliefs. Kind of like saying to Jihadists, "Do you REALLY think Muhammed would be doing this?"
Of course, the point and its subtleties, as always, are missed by extremists. Instead, they call for violence, attacks on Denmark, etc - because one person from there drew a cartoon and another person printed it. When I see those people protesting with signs asking for massacres or death or what have you, and then see them storming an embassy while the guards fire in the air and spray them with water... well, personally, it makes me wonder why those people aren't given the same treatment they are proposing. Oh yeah, the same values that they are adamantly decrying are allowing them to congregate with signs of pure hatred and not be, to quote a certain Iranian, "wiped off the map".
That bit of silliness aside, consider the action itself. Are they not, in fact, idolizing Muhammed's cartoon by a call to arms on its behalf? Are they not committing the very sin they were so worried might come from such a cartoon? You know, in addition to several others.
In short, I see nothing wrong with ANYTHING the Danish have done. Reprinting them was a mistake and is not going to help the situation any more than levelling hordes of protesters will, just a stupid knee-jerk reaction, but I'd still say they have the right to do so. And with all the furor that this cartoon has caused, I'd say they probably have the responsibility to show the world what it is that is causing all the trouble in the first place. If there had been a simple but strong message of disapproval from the Muslim community instead of all this ruckus, the image would probably never have shown up again.
Thankfully, Danish don't worship their flags to the extent that some countries do, or the responses in Muslim countries would probably be a war. Started by a man in a turban. Sound like anything Nostradamus said? <cue twilight zone music>.
 "If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate." |
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vilainde
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Niue
7443 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2006 : 07:23:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Cheeseman1000
quote:
Originally posted by cassandra is
religions are one of the greatest diseases of the world
Are you going to qualify that?
I beg your pardon?
Denis
I love Guitar Wolf from the Erath! |
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Topic |
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Muhammad Cartoons
