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Kirk
= Cult of Ray =
USA
633 Posts |
 Posted - 09/15/2005 : 08:01:10
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What do you guys know about 4ths?
What kind of modern composers use them constantly?
What albums do you suggest that have them?
I'm taking music composition lessons here at the college from the head of the music department and I wanted to approach music a little differently, a little more modern. So we're talking about 4ths and inversions of them.
Your thoughts?
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Carl
- A 'Fifth' Catholic -
Ireland
11546 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2005 : 08:36:22
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| I'm a dummy when it comes to stuff like that. |
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Doog
* Dog in the Sand *
United Kingdom
1220 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2005 : 08:38:03
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The Ramones?
www.myspace.com/doog - www.doog.tk |
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guidzie
- FB Fan -
France
44 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2005 : 04:26:37
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try Jazz
But does music need rules ? I mean, It's not a question of being more modern or whatever, It's just a question of "do I really like what I play, My ears like it or not ?". 4th, II V I IV, it's just theory it's not music (of course, it helps to know music theory, but it's not music). |
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Kirk
= Cult of Ray =
USA
633 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2005 : 12:28:31
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I've tried the atonality route for a while...then I got bored with myself. Tonality is much more of a challenge for me!
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Kirk
= Cult of Ray =
USA
633 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2005 : 12:36:55
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One composer I just discovered is Paul Hindemith (1895-1963), the father of the 4th interval (kind of).
I'm boring myself. Anyway, maybe I'll post of my composition once I finish. (of course, being TOTALLY inspired by Frank Black himself)
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koflan
- FB Fan -
3 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2005 : 19:04:51
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Okay, here we go. If I understand your question correctly, you're asking who uses 4ths, referring to the interval...
First of all, a 4th is an interval. It's a term referring to the distance between two notes. 4ths occur in pretty much any piece of music you've ever heard barring anything monophonic (monophonic=one note at a time). So, to answer your question, almost every composer who's ever written music has used 4ths. Of course, inverting a 4th gives you a 5th, and vice versa. They fall on either side of the tritone (diminished 5th or augmented 4th, take your pick) so they circle around each other like that. Of course, if you're talking about what kind of composers use quartal harmony often, I can't say as though I can remember anyone... it's been a while since my music history courses.
#2 - quidzie!!
"But does music need rules ? I mean, It's not a question of being more modern or whatever, It's just a question of "do I really like what I play, My ears like it or not"
The answer among any musician is a resounding no! See, here's the thing. When you study music theory you always learn your 17th century counterpoint. Kids always complain about the "rules" and how music should be free. But see, it is. Bach when he was composing wasn't just running an algorithm to produce music, he wrote to invent new music, to push boundries, and to ultimitely create beauty. Eliot Carter is a 20th century composer, he often employed a seperation between left and right hand on piano to the point where they played in different rhythms in different tempos and generally sounded like the two hands were playing different songs. But he didn't just randomly collide them together! He carefully calculated the distances and was able to create tonal color and tension and relief such that had never been heard before. Thing is, he was fully educated in music theory, having mastered tonal harmony before proceeding to push past it into atonality.
So... don't look down your nose at education! Technique allows one to express creativity audibly, and one without the other is meaningless. To make music with no musical attributes would better be termed "sound art" (ala the noise movement), but to build musical structures with no part of the person writing it is also pointless. The humanity found in music is what makes music such a universally appealing thing.
Anyway, rock on. |
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guidzie
- FB Fan -
France
44 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2005 : 04:06:03
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koflan
I don't look down my nose at education. My point is that Bach did not play music the way he played it just to push boundries or create ultimitely beauty. My thought is that he was just expressing himself, and "push boundries" or "create ultimitely beauty" were in him. Music was just a medium for him, and if he was a painter, his painting should have been the same as his music : "push boundries" or "create ultimitely beauty" or ...Learn music theories is a good thing, if you're trying to fully express yourself but music theories are not the goal. For Eliot Carter, I don't think he ever "carefully calculated the distances" between two notes before playing them, and if he did then he was "just running an algorithm to produce music". I mean "push boundries" just to push boundries, it's a beat stupid if you feel "not push boundries". |
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koflan
- FB Fan -
3 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2005 : 18:55:02
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About bach, I agree mostly, though I should point out that my words were "ultimately create beauty". As in his goal was to create beauty. Which is in itself only part of the picture, in thinking about it. Composers back then weren't seen as like sound poets or starving artists. They typically were commissioned to compose works, often as a resident composer. Being a composer was much more of a job and much less of the estoteric kind of free expression that it is now.
But with regard to Elliot Carter, he said himself in his own words that the relationships between the two halves of a piece were indeed "carefully calculated". You can read up about 12 tone composition and the surrounding 20th century stlyles of atonal composition. As far as him therefore merely using an algorithim: no he wasn't. There's no justifiable basis for that. If approaching music from any point other than making sound on your instrument and gradually shaping it into music is merely a technical exercise, then there's a whole lot of very beautiful music that isn't truly music, or at least not truly an expression of the composer.
Nonetheless, Elliot Carter is interesting. There's a cd that contains some of his better known works and a conversation between Elliot Carter and the performer on the cd. It's neat. Anyway, thanks for replying, man. I like music a lot.
I don't look down my nose at education. My point is that Bach did not play music the way he played it just to push boundries or create ultimitely beauty. My thought is that he was just expressing himself, and "push boundries" or "create ultimitely beauty" were in him. Music was just a medium for him, and if he was a painter, his painting should have been the same as his music : "push boundries" or "create ultimitely beauty" or ...Learn music theories is a good thing, if you're trying to fully express yourself but music theories are not the goal. For Eliot Carter, I don't think he ever "carefully calculated the distances" between two notes before playing them, and if he did then he was "just running an algorithm to produce music". I mean "push boundries" just to push boundries, it's a beat stupid if you feel "not push boundries".
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koflan
- FB Fan -
3 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2005 : 19:03:21
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| By the way, I didn't mean to repost your post, I forgot I clicked reply to yours and then forgot to delete it. |
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guidzie
- FB Fan -
France
44 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2005 : 03:25:48
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y'a pas d'mal !
"running an algorithm to produce music" remind me of the book 1984 where the author explain how do they make music and lyrics by ramdomly adding pre-recorded patterns and words.
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mostasteless
- FB Fan -
81 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2005 : 17:33:11
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ever heard of the Plato's cave analogy? Cause that is essentially what you guys are arguing about....an age old debate certainly not restricted to just music
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guidzie
- FB Fan -
France
44 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2005 : 00:33:01
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| we have to go outside and tell other how beautiful the world is. Is that what you mean ? |
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number 13
= Cult of Ray =
286 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2005 : 16:02:17
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| May we have an instance of 4ths please? Just in order to dig deeper the theory. |
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P-BassPimp
- FB Fan -
8 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2005 : 17:07:41
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McCoy Tyner who played w/ coltrane often voiced minor7 chords as a "stack of 4ths"kind of an ambiguous sound. with a little ear training you'll be able to pick out this sound ...have fun
"Talent Show " by the Replacements has a opening riff/hook that is a stack of 4ths moving back and forth a whole step.. a good song check it out!!!
the way God & Leo Fender
intended it |
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Intervals: 4ths
