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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
 Posted - 08/15/2005 : 19:18:12
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| it seems like there are better things we could be doing with our technology than this.. |
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2005 : 19:25:00
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quote:
Originally posted by floop
it seems like there are better things we could be doing with our technology than this..
Such as creating even yummier tofu!
Sometimes, no matter how shitty things get, you have to just do a little dance. - Frank
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2005 : 01:56:59
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Such as eradicating the plague of tofu from the world. If we can do it with smallpox...
How's that for a slice of fried gold? |
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Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2005 : 02:30:21
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Nimrod's Son:
I'm with Darwin and starmekitten on this one. Atoms are the basic constituents. They aren't alive and don't contain anything that is alive. There are no enzyes in atoms. Atoms come together to create enzymes, usually, if I remember rightly, by creating amino acids first. To suggest otherwise is to try and redefine accepted science fact.
Also, when food is digested, it generally isn't broken down into constituent atoms, but into molecules - simple sugars, fats etc that the body can use to build proteins and enzymes from.
Furthermore, generally atoms don't decompose, they just are. The only atom(s) I can think of that 'decompose' are radioactively unstable ones which will eventually reach a stable form.
As far as I can gather, this guy has tried to redefine what 'enzymes' and 'atoms' are in an effort to confuse people into believing what he is saying is scientific fact. It's not. It is, as darwin said, new age hoey.
No power in the 'verse can stop me
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Edited by - Llamadance on 08/16/2005 02:31:33 |
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Doog
* Dog in the Sand *
United Kingdom
1220 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2005 : 02:39:29
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"Neat" would be a far cooler name for it than "New-Meat", no doubts.
Or possibly "Cheat", or "Cheaty Meat".
Join the cult of / We rip off the logo of Moog
www.myspace.com/doog - www.doog.tk |
Edited by - Doog on 08/16/2005 02:40:14 |
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2005 : 02:56:16
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I do hate to do this (especially this early in the morning) but really, this is such a jumbled mess of pseudo science wrapped up in a food fad. Dr Darwin over here is getting it right, and I may not be Dr anything but…
quote:
Originally posted by NimrodsSon
Yes, the complete animal proteins can be broken down by the body but this is HIGHLY INEFFICIENT, as you'll see. The building blocks of protein are amino acids, which are made up of atoms. I think we can agree on this.
Everything is made of atoms, so it would be hard to disagree. However to talk about amino acids in terms of nutrition and to discuss atoms is highly unusual. An amino acid is comprised of an amino group, a carboxyl group either side of a central (alpha) carbon atom and each amino acid is made individual by R, the side chain:
so the basic atoms of an amino acid, as in carbon, hydrogen, oxygen are not that unusual in the body and not unusual in any food sources, the only one atom we need to intake is nitrogen and I will come onto this in a moment.
quote:
There are twenty-three known amino acids, all of which are important in the proper functioning of the human body. Now, to quote Dr. Walker, "The protein composing the flesh of animals, fish and fowl, was built up in the respective bodies from the live, organic atoms in the raw food they were nourished with. Such flesh, of course, is a complete protein. Before the body can digest such protein, however, it must break it down not only into the original amino acids, but also into the original atoms in order that it may build up its own protein from these original atoms and primary amino acids." Now, this is in line with what you said, but my point is, rather than this inefficient process of breaking down the protein only to build it back up, the body should obtain its protein from fruits and vegetables, which, instead of being complete proteins, have the atoms necessary to form the amino acids that are formed into complete proteins in our bodies.
Yes, I see where you would get this idea from but it’s not right. There are twenty amino acids
1. Lysine
2. Arginine
3. Histidine
4. Aspartic Acid,
5. Glutamic Acid
6. Asparagine
7. Glutamine
8. Serine
9. Threonine
10. Tyrosine
11. Glycine
12. Alanine
13. Valine
14. Leucine
15. Isoleucine
16. Proline
17. Phenylalanine
18. Methionine
19. Tryptophan
20. cysteine
Directly From Alberts et al. Molecular Biology of the Cell (because I can’t really be bothered to re word it sorry)
Vertebrates receive virtually all of their nitrogen in their dietary intake of proteins and nucleic acids. In the body these macromolecules are broken down to amino acids and the components of nucleotides, and the nitrogen they contain is used to produce new proteins and nucleic acids or utilized to make other molecules. About half of the 20 amino acids found in proteins are essential amino acids for vertebrates, which means that they cannot be synthesized from other ingredients of the diet. The others can be so synthesized, using a variety of raw materials, including intermediates of the citric acid cycle. The essential amino acids are:
threonine, valine, methionine, tryptophan, lysine, leucine, isoleucine, histidine and phenylalanine
The reason we do not make these is the pathway required for synthesis is long and energetically expensive so we obtain them through the diet
Where you say we should ingest protein from plants that are incomplete yet complete and contain amino acids and atoms etc etc, I have no idea what you are talking about there, how could plant protein be any good to our metabolic pathways which have their own complex requirements, it isn’t a case of any old protein will do, they are highly specific. We break down proteins to the amino acid state and then re build proteins to suit our metabolic needs.
quote:
Would it not then be logical to say that the best source of protein is not in the complete proteins (not to mention DEAD proteins, since the atoms that compose the amino acids that compose the complete protein die within minutes after the animal is killed) in flesh foods, but rather the atoms found in all fruits and vegetables which are the building blocks for these amino acids, which are the building blocks for protein. OF COURSE this is the case! It's only logical to say that instead of the body having to break down the complete proteins of animal food (which are DEAD, as I've said) to amino acids and then to the atoms that compose the amino acids, so that it can build these up into its own protein, it should rather obtain its protein from vegetables and fruits, thereby foregoing the process of breaking down the protein and rather immediately building it up from the individual atoms.
No, that would not be logical because that is not the case. Atoms do not die they are re used. DEAD is not a factor, atoms do not die, proteins/enzymes do not die, they are denatured which results in deactivation but this does not render their basic components unusable, amino acids don’t die! Stop with the DEAD thing seriously, it’s spooking me out! Denaturisation of an enzyme occurs when the active site is bent all out of shape to stop it working, it doesn’t kill it. The covalent bonds that hold the proteins structure become unstable and the protein unfolds into it’s primary structure, the amino acid sequence. Most proteins can renature into their native forms, because the way they fold and therefor work is coded into the sequence. But if we’re going to be breaking them down anyway (which we are) it doesn’t matter whether they are functioning at ingestion or not.
quote:
Dr. Walker points out that, "During the processes by which flesh proteins are digested, resulting in the breaking down of the protein into its component amino acids, a certain amount of heat is liberated within the body which makes one feel stimulated and energetic. This helps to keep up the body temperature but is not utilized for the energy needs of the working cells of the body. This amount of energy is therefore wasted and more protein would be needed than would be the case if all its potential energy were utilized. The amino acids from the meat thus ingested are not therefore reconstructed into body protein and are virtually wasted, resulting in this uric acid being added to the uric acid resulting from muscular functions." And this goes into another issue altogether with meat, which is the uric acid generated when meat and other concentrated proteins are digested.
What?
H202 poduced by peroxisomes breaks down uric acid to urate which is component in the cycle to get rid off excess nitrogen in the urine, and You need to ingest nitrogen because there is no other way of getting it. I’ve just flicked through all my text books to see if I can figure out what you mean, and what this Dr guy means and it just doesn’t make any sense.
As for energy, that’s also daft. The human body is a beautiful thing and nearly all of it’s metabolic cycles have ways to use energy as well as ways to create energy, we’re finely balanced in this respect. We can take it, we’re designed to. All we ingest is going to cost us energy wise, but it’s also going to provide for us as well/
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Now, to answer Darwin's question about enzymes, enzymes aren't simply proteins, and they are very much ALIVE, that is, until they are heated to 130 degrees faranheight (sp?). Enzymes "constitute the life principle in every atom and molecule composing every LIVE organism." Fresh, live enzymes in abundance are the single most important thing that we should be sure to eat.
Enzymes are Proteins, Proteins are Enzymes, if this book is telling you otherwise it’s very very wrong, honestly, I’m not doing this to be argumentative, it’s wrong!
You begin saving the world by saving one person at a time; all else is grandiose romanticism or politics |
Edited by - starmekitten on 08/16/2005 02:57:56 |
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2005 : 03:15:06
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To quote Dr. Walker:
quote:
Taken from The Vegetarian Guide to Diet and Salad by Dr. Norman W. Walker, D.Sc.
...in the protein of a live man or animal, the amino acids are the means of such a vast field of activities that no physical function is possible without them in live, vital, organic form.
The importance of VITALITY in the atoms composing the amino acids can best be appreciated by realizing that within 6 minutes after life leaves the body all the atoms in the body cease to be live, organic atoms, and their function and activity consequently comes to a stop. So long as life is present in the body, the live atoms therein have the vital spark of life which enables them to carry on their work.
Atoms do not die! THEY DO NOT DIE! I’m serious, this death thing is weird!
quote:
Atoms are not like animals whose life is apparent and perceived in active animation. Nevertheless, the vital principle wither is, or is not present in an atom. If it is present, that atom is a live organism capable of furnishing vital force and energy. if life is not present in it then the atom is inorganic and as such belongs to the mineral kingdom.
I’m starting to think he doesn’t know what an atom is or is defining it as something that it isn’t (as Llama says) atoms are just, they are! That’s it, they float about happily on their own until they come across and they interact with another atom , Carbon is always going to have four free electrons and want to bind them up, Oxygen is always going to have two free electrons and will want to bind them up, It’s the way they are, there’s no dying. This is basic chemistry.
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The mineral kingdom contains all the atoms composing this world, in inorganic form. Each of these atoms, while in the mineral kingdom state, has certain definitive rates of vibration, but no life-principle is present...
What life principle? Seriously?
quote:
...When the life of vegetation is destroyed by heat, the atoms composing such vegetation automatically revert to the mineral kingdom state, as we cannot have life and death in anything at one and the same time.
eh? He’s saying atoms die again isn’t he?
quote:
Enzymes "constitute the life principle in every atom and molecule composing every LIVE organism." Fresh, live enzymes in abundance are the single most important thing that we should be sure to eat.
Enzymes do not constitute atoms, atoms constitute enzymes in basic chemical principles, enzymes can not die they can be degraded in which case their base components are still viable or they can be denatured when chances are they will be renatured as soon as the denaturing force is remove. Death isn’t an option, it’s a case of re use and moving on.
quote:
Natural foods, in their natural raw state contain life in the atoms and molecules composing
them [my italics]. Such atomic LIFE is classified as ENZYMES.
WRONG and WEIRD, I’m sorry!
quote:
As Enzymes form the fundemental basis of nutrition, they should have our first consideration in the choice of our food. Enzymes are not substances which man can createnor are they capable of being synthesized for use as supplements for constructive purposes.
Enzymes are the life-principle in every live, organic atom and molecule, whether such atoms compose vegetation or are the atoms and molecules in the constitution of the human and animal bodies.
I’m quitting right here, because if you are seriously touting this as scientific I would suggest you sit down with a good biology text book and have a read, Man can make enzymes, if we couldn’t we would not be, I can’t honestly believe you are buying this. It’s honest to goodness, nonsense.
You begin saving the world by saving one person at a time; all else is grandiose romanticism or politics |
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Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2005 : 03:32:58
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Thankfully, there is someone here with more complete and up-to-date scientific knowledge than mine.
No power in the 'verse can stop me
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Homers_pet_monkey
= Official forum monkey =
United Kingdom
17125 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2005 : 06:13:22
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When the hell did this turn into Open University on BBC2?
 I'd walk her everyday, into a shady place
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NimrodsSon
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1938 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2005 : 09:17:20
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quote:
Originally posted by starmekitten
quote:
The mineral kingdom contains all the atoms composing this world, in inorganic form. Each of these atoms, while in the mineral kingdom state, has certain definitive rates of vibration, but no life-principle is present...
What life principle? Seriously?
Enzymes
quote:
quote:
...When the life of vegetation is destroyed by heat, the atoms composing such vegetation automatically revert to the mineral kingdom state, as we cannot have life and death in anything at one and the same time.
eh? He’s saying atoms die again isn’t he?
No, he never said that. He said the "life-principle," or enzymes, die.
quote:
quote:
Enzymes "constitute the life principle in every atom and molecule composing every LIVE organism." Fresh, live enzymes in abundance are the single most important thing that we should be sure to eat.
Enzymes do not constitute atoms, atoms constitute enzymes in basic chemical principles,
He doesn't say they constitute atoms, he says they constitute the "life-principle." I don't think "life-principle" is a scientific term and maybe that's where you are getting confused. It's merely a term he made up to describe enzymes.
quote:
enzymes can not die they can be degraded in which case their base components are still viable or they can be denatured when chances are they will be renatured as soon as the denaturing force is remove. Death isn’t an option, it’s a case of re use and moving on.
Yes, enzymes DO die. Let's look at some information about enzymes. Quoting Rhonda J. Malkmus:
quote:
There are three types of enzymes...
1) Metabolic enzymes, which make the body organs function and are found in every cell and tissue in the human body....
2) "Digestive enzymes are produced by the body and are responsible for breaking down the food we eat so that it may be assimilated....
3) Food source enzymes may be found in all freshly extracted juices and raw food, raw marinaded foods, as well as soaked nuts and seeds....
The four types of enzymes found in food are:
1. Lipase - which breaks down the fat
2. Protease - which assists to break down protein
3. Cellulase - which works on breaking down cellulose
4. Amylase - which breaks down starch
Enzymes start to die at 107 degrees Farenheit! By 122 degrees Farenheit the enzymes or life force are destroyed. This statement can easily be proven by a simple experiment: Take two raw carrots; cut the top off one and place it in water. Take the second carrot and cook it; then after it has been cooked, cut its top off and place it in a saucer of water. The raw carrot top will grow while the cooked carrot will not. The raw carrot is alive, with enzymes, and the cooked carrot is dead, with no enzymes.
Another example of what heat does to enzymes is the heating or pasteurization of cow's milk. A calf nursing at a mother cow will grow up into a healthy animal. But if the calf is removed from the mother and cow's milk os pasteurized (heated to 160 degrees [Farenheight]) and then that pasteurized milk is fed to the calf as its ezclusive diet, the calf will be dead in 30 to 60 days. Heat destroys the life in any form of food!
quote:
quote:
Natural foods, in their natural raw state contain life in the atoms and molecules composing
them [my italics]. Such atomic LIFE is classified as ENZYMES.
WRONG and WEIRD, I’m sorry!
Yes, natural, raw foods contain living enzymes. Not weird, sorry!
quote:
quote:
As Enzymes form the fundemental basis of nutrition, they should have our first consideration in the choice of our food. Enzymes are not substances which man can createnor are they capable of being synthesized for use as supplements for constructive purposes.
Enzymes are the life-principle in every live, organic atom and molecule, whether such atoms compose vegetation or are the atoms and molecules in the constitution of the human and animal bodies.
I’m quitting right here, because if you are seriously touting this as scientific I would suggest you sit down with a good biology text book and have a read, Man can make enzymes, if we couldn’t we would not be, I can’t honestly believe you are buying this. It’s honest to goodness, nonsense.
I think you misunderstood this quote. Yes, the human body an produce enzymes, otherwise people we would have to eat raw foods just to sustain life. He's saying that we can't reproduce the living enzymes found in raw foods to take as supplements, that the only way to obtain these enzymes is to eat the raw foods.
quote:
Originally posted by starmekitten
There are twenty amino acids
1. Lysine
2. Arginine
3. Histidine
4. Aspartic Acid,
5. Glutamic Acid
6. Asparagine
7. Glutamine
8. Serine
9. Threonine
10. Tyrosine
11. Glycine
12. Alanine
13. Valine
14. Leucine
15. Isoleucine
16. Proline
17. Phenylalanine
18. Methionine
19. Tryptophan
20. cysteine
I've seen different numbers everywhere I look--20, 22, 23--and I don't know which one is correct, but I've seen twenty-three the most often, so I'll go with that (not that it matters), adding to that list Hydroxyglutamic Acid, Hydroxyproline, and Iodogorgoic Acid.
¡Viva los Católicos! http://adrianfoster.dmusic.com/ |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2005 : 09:19:07
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| *eyes glaze over* |
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2005 : 09:25:17
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Where's your yawn pic, floopie?
Sometimes, no matter how shitty things get, you have to just do a little dance. - Frank
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2005 : 09:26:38
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| that's for when i'm yawning. in this case my eyes are just glazing. i need a pic for that |
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2005 : 09:34:41
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Enzymes are not living, they can not die, oh lord I've got the giggles!
Unless you're going to stop quoting food gurus at me and start looking at the science of this we're not going to get anywhere. I'm serious, enzymes are proteins that act as catalysts to make reactions go facster. If human beings, as with all living things, did not produce enzymes they would never exist in the first place. We can not use enzymes ingested directly from food in the state that they are in because they are incompatible with out metabolic processes so we break them down to the constituent components, as in the amino acids, to reform enzymes that are present in our normal pathways. It matter not a bit if you eat food raw or cooked in terms of enzymes because chances are they get broken down anyway. If you've ever worked with enzymes you can watch activation using colormetric photospec assays, you heat inactivate proteins but that does not mean you kill off everything that makes an enzyme, it means you unfold it and in it's unfolded state they can not work, but if you were to re-fold it it would work exactly the same way as it did before it was inactivated. Also, there are enzymes that are not heat inactivated there are some that are remakably resistant to this found in hot springs and volcano mouths so to generalise like that is innapropriate.
Could you explain this "life principle" to me then, because I can't see any sense in it.
But please, none of the DEAD stuff, I'm horribly giggly as it is.
You begin saving the world by saving one person at a time; all else is grandiose romanticism or politics |
Edited by - starmekitten on 08/16/2005 09:35:19 |
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Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2005 : 09:36:37
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quote:
:
quote:...When the life of vegetation is destroyed by heat, the atoms composing such vegetation automatically revert to the mineral kingdom state, as we cannot have life and death in anything at one and the same time.
eh? He’s saying atoms die again isn’t he?
No, he never said that. He said the "life-principle," or enzymes, die.
quote:
The importance of VITALITY in the atoms composing the amino acids can best be appreciated by realizing that within 6 minutes after life leaves the body all the atoms in the body cease to be live, organic atoms, and their function and activity consequently comes to a stop. So long as life is present in the body, the live atoms therein have the vital spark of life which enables them to carry on their work.
He did say that atoms die.
Being functional is not interchangeable with being alive. Enzymes are not alive, they are functional, until they are denatured.
Honestly, the whole use of the phrases 'life force' and 'life principle' is wholly misguided. He could have called it the 'sandwich' and it would have made more sense
No power in the 'verse can stop me
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2005 : 09:37:06
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quote:
Originally posted by starmekitten
Could you explain this "life principle" to me then, because I can't see any sense in it.
The best way I can explain it is this:
I'd really like to live beside you, baby
I love your body and your spirit and your clothes
Sometimes, no matter how shitty things get, you have to just do a little dance. - Frank
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2005 : 09:37:21
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hahaha llama stop it, oh god tears rolling down my face haha
You begin saving the world by saving one person at a time; all else is grandiose romanticism or politics |
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2005 : 10:23:11
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quote:
I've seen different numbers everywhere I look--20, 22, 23--and I don't know which one is correct, but I've seen twenty-three the most often, so I'll go with that (not that it matters), adding to that list Hydroxyglutamic Acid, Hydroxyproline, and Iodogorgoic Acid.
not been looking in any biology texts then, 20 there are 20 and it does too matter, if you can't get the basics right there's no point trying to figure out the big bits. Hydroxy means making acids have alcohol properties too (I think hydroxyl (OH) Chemical group consisting of a hydrogen atom linked to an oxygen, as in an alcohol) to, so those others would be just glutamic acid and proline that have been modified, it doesn't make them new amino acids. look , it's an amino acid modification it is not an amino acid. Hydroxyglutamic acid isn't even in any of my books! Iodogorgeyourselfonthiswhat? The only places I have found these in a google search is on nutty health websites
You begin saving the world by saving one person at a time; all else is grandiose romanticism or politics |
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NimrodsSon
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1938 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2005 : 10:41:50
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quote:
Originally posted by starmekitten
Enzymes are not living, they can not die, oh lord I've got the giggles!
Unless you're going to stop quoting food gurus at me and start looking at the science of this we're not going to get anywhere.
Considering Dr. Walker is far more than a food guru, but a completely unbiased SCIENTIST, who has no animal rights agenda, who spent over seventy years of his life researching the subject and conducting experiments, living to be 118 years old, I'd say that his information is SCIENTIFIC. I don't see how it could possibly be any more scientific. What Llama just said confirmed what I said, that enzymes are functional ("alive," I'm sorry if that term isn't scientific enough for you) until they become denatured, which is caused by too much heat--to be exact, heat above 122 degrees Farenheight (and I'm sure, as you said, this is slightly different for some enzymes and some enzymes are resistent to heat. I'm not denying this.) But bottom-line, Dr. Walker's findings are VERY MUCH scientific and NOT a bunch of new age phooey.
¡Viva los Católicos! http://adrianfoster.dmusic.com/ |
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2005 : 10:48:34
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Then what, please tell, is wrong with putting things as they are instead of surrounding it with hippyisms? You've been stating that proteins are not enzymes, that enzymes die, and that we use them in the state we recieve them and this is NOT the case. I don't know Dr Walker but I know something iffy when I read it, and thats damned iffy. If people were truly interested in the science of what they eat and how it used it wouldn't do them harm to have a look at a few metabolic pathways and see what goes where and does what. This, to my eye, is another cashing in on the obsession of food with scientific groundings that are at best wobbly.
It could be more scientific by being right, that Atkins guy was a Dr too and an absolute disaster his science turned out to be.
You begin saving the world by saving one person at a time; all else is grandiose romanticism or politics |
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NimrodsSon
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1938 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2005 : 11:05:03
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quote:
Originally posted by starmekitten
Then what, please tell, is wrong with putting things as they are instead of surrounding it with hippyisms? You've been stating that proteins are not enzymes,
Never said that. I said something to the effect of, "Enzymes are not just proteins, they are...[some "hippy" talk about "life-force  ]
quote:
that enzymes die,
Yes, I said that.
quote:
and that we use them in the state we recieve them and this is NOT the case.
I never said that or anything remotely close to that effect.
As I said, I don't know which is correct on the amino acids. I've seen 23 several places and I've seen 20 several places.
¡Viva los Católicos! http://adrianfoster.dmusic.com/ |
Edited by - NimrodsSon on 08/16/2005 11:05:55 |
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2005 : 11:17:17
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Dr Walker and yourself have both said that breaking down proteins is a waste of energy, so it follows that we should not break them down and use them as they are. You've said that dead enzymes (sorry I can't write that without giggling, it's tickled me) are gained when you cook food and dead enzymes are no good, which again follows the thought that enzymes are used as is.
I've just googled Dr Walker and it seems he's been dead 20 odd years, I really don't mean to be rude but things and understanding of things has moved on since then.
A good number of people put a lot of faith into these food Dr's and it depresses me to see people believe it absolutely. Carbs are bad for your body, meat will kill you, I'm fat because it's in my genes... it's just another thing to believe and isn't always right. I'm not accusing you of this, but you've got three science bods here telling you it's hokey, I'm not sure we've got seventy years of understanding between us but we do have *current* understanding, which is different. It's been a while since I looked into metabolism but I can see the basics from these quotes are well off. In thinking terms, as soon as you use the word life or alive or live to describe enzymes you've stepped into the regions of weird and wrong.
Think of it like this, you know those lego kits you got as a kid? you could use all the blocks of lego to make a spaceship, you'd zoom it around and play with it like a spaceship. If you gave the spaceship to your kid sister she probably wouldn't want a spaceship so she'd take it apart and make a house. Enzymes is the same, the function as they are until not wanted and then are broken down to the building blocks (amino acids) and reformed into something that is wanted. There is no live or dead, an enzyme when it's not active is like a spaceship thats being taken apart, it could still be the spaceship if it wants to be or it could be a house if thats better.
I hope that doesn't sound weird??
You begin saving the world by saving one person at a time; all else is grandiose romanticism or politics |
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Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2005 : 11:33:25
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Just a quick note on amino acids. The only amino acids found in proteins and enzymes are a-amino acids, of which there are twenty. This website gives a nice representation of them, what's essential etc http://www.johnkyrk.com/aminoacid.html
There are also amino acids called D-amino acids which are, I think, of the opposite handedness to alpha amino acids. These have been found in nature in the occasional polypeptide, but not in proteins or enzymes. Search google for more info, but there are far more than three.
No power in the 'verse can stop me
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NimrodsSon
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1938 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2005 : 11:37:49
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...and you're giggling because I said "dead."
Anyways, yes, he has been dead a while, I don't believe there's any more recent research that contradicts anything he's said (unless the 20 amino acids thing is a very recent development) and yes, there are at least three people here who know a HEEEEEELLLLL of a lot more about science than I do (I nearly failed high school biology), but I'm sorry, I don't see anything that you or anyone else here has written that contradicts anything Dr. Walker or other proponents of a raw-food diet have written. I don't blindly put faith into what food dr.'s, gurus, and faddists write. I believe what makes the most sense. When I read, for example, Dr. Walker's books, I see information about how our digestive system works and how the food we eat affects it that couldn't be more clear, and I see a guy that researched this for 70 years (which is far more than you or I or anyone here has researched it) and lived to be 118 YEARS OLD on this diet, which is a clear enough indication that it WORKS, and I see (and know personally) many, many people who are following these same guidelines for their diets and achieving the same amazing results, and I have evidence from MY OWN LIFE, that when I cut meat out of my diet and do my best to avoid processed and cooked foods (and I'm not very good at avoiding them, but when I do...) and drink freshly extracted vegetable juices each day, I have enormous vigor, no fatigue, no sickness, and extraordinary health.
¡Viva los Católicos! http://adrianfoster.dmusic.com/ |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2005 : 13:20:40
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quote:
Originally posted by NimrodsSon
Considering Dr. Walker is far more than a food guru, but a completely unbiased SCIENTIST, who has no animal rights agenda, who spent over seventy years of his life researching the subject and conducting experiments, living to be 118 years old, I'd say that his information is SCIENTIFIC. I don't see how it could possibly be any more scientific.
Well, I would say using sloppy language (being anthropomorphic by saying atoms or enzymes are dead, or enzymes contain 'life principle') is sloppy science.
Also, color me a skeptic but I don't believe the guy lived for 118 years. The oldest modern person ever may have been about 122 years, but documentation is sketchy and that was a woman. I don't have any evidence to refute the claim, but I don't believe it.
I've also found a number of sites that refute this live enzyme idea, but I don't think I can claim that they are unbiased or more scientific.
http://www.ncahf.org/index.html |
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Homers_pet_monkey
= Official forum monkey =
United Kingdom
17125 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2005 : 14:25:43
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I don't know why anyone would want to live for 118 years.
I'd walk her everyday, into a shady place
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Edited by - Homers_pet_monkey on 08/16/2005 14:26:18 |
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2005 : 14:26:51
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If you were 117 you would.
--
Develop interest in life as you see it; in people, things, literature, music -- the world is so rich, simply throbbing with rich treasures, beautiful souls and interesting people. Forget yourself. |
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Homers_pet_monkey
= Official forum monkey =
United Kingdom
17125 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2005 : 14:59:38
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I am not sure you would, that's kinda my point. It can't be much fun.
I'd walk her everyday, into a shady place
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zub_the_goat
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
639 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2005 : 15:08:43
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| i guess it depends., i worked at a nursing home a few years ago, there were 70 year olds who could barely remember their own name, my grandad has had so many strokes and illnesses he has become miserable and unrecognisable, yet i knew a 106 year old who was just so happy to be alive, he would steal kids bikes, look after all the other residents, i guess it depends whether you are alive or just being assisted to live....i'll re edit and make this make sense when im awake |
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2005 : 15:09:28
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If I live to be 106, I hope to be stealing kids' bikes.
Sometimes, no matter how shitty things get, you have to just do a little dance. - Frank
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Homers_pet_monkey
= Official forum monkey =
United Kingdom
17125 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2005 : 15:14:15
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quote:
Originally posted by zub_the_goat
i guess it depends., i worked at a nursing home a few years ago, there were 70 year olds who could barely remember their own name, my grandad has had so many strokes and illnesses he has become miserable and unrecognisable, yet i knew a 106 year old who was just so happy to be alive, he would steal kids bikes, look after all the other residents, i guess it depends whether you are alive or just being assisted to live....i'll re edit and make this make sense when im awake
I suspect that guy was more of an exception. Thankfully, there'd be a huge rise in BMX theft otherwise ; )
I'd walk her everyday, into a shady place
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NimrodsSon
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1938 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2005 : 15:14:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Homers_pet_monkey
I don't know why anyone would want to live for 118 years.
I'd walk her everyday, into a shady place
That's the point! You wouldn't want to live to that age if you were an unhealthy mess! But according to Dr. Walker, in his old age he felt like he was still 30. Here's a quote:
"I can truthfully say that I am never conscious of my age. Since I reached maturity, I have never been aware of being any older, and I can say, without equivocation or mental reservation, that I feel more alive, alert, and full of enthusiasm today than I did when I was 30 years old. I still feel my best years are ahead of me. I never think of birthdays, nor do I celebrate them. Today I can truthfully say that I am enjoying vibrant health, I don't mind telling people how old I am: I AM AGELESS!"
Darwin, are you sure the oldest person ever was 122? There's a women in my town who is well into her 100's (I want to think 110, but I'm not positive at the moment). And I've read in a book about a man meeting someone in Germany who was supposedly 143 years old (obviously his age couldn't be proven, so it might not necessarily be correct).
I'm not positive that Dr. Walker was 118 exactly. He was definitely well into his 100s without a doubt, but I don't think anyone knows EXACTLY how old, but I've read from many sources that he was 118 when he died.
¡Viva los Católicos! http://adrianfoster.dmusic.com/ |
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zub_the_goat
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
639 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2005 : 15:18:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Homers_pet_monkey
quote:
Originally posted by zub_the_goat
i guess it depends., i worked at a nursing home a few years ago, there were 70 year olds who could barely remember their own name, my grandad has had so many strokes and illnesses he has become miserable and unrecognisable, yet i knew a 106 year old who was just so happy to be alive, he would steal kids bikes, look after all the other residents, i guess it depends whether you are alive or just being assisted to live....i'll re edit and make this make sense when im awake
I suspect that guy was more of an exception. Thankfully, there'd be a huge rise in BMX theft otherwise ; )
I'd walk her everyday, into a shady place
he he, occasionally he'd organise a breakout when one of the nurses left the door open and we'd get police helecopters searching for them. |
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Homers_pet_monkey
= Official forum monkey =
United Kingdom
17125 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2005 : 15:18:48
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Surely he must have known exactly how old he was if he was so alert ; )
I'd walk her everyday, into a shady place
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2005 : 15:19:16
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Still died though, right?
Thats the limit of my scientific interjection.
How's that for a slice of fried gold? |
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Lab-Grown Meat
