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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
 Posted - 07/07/2005 : 10:39:57
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because I don't want the other thread clouded and obscured by this.
quote:
The seeds of this grow in the schools of Cairo and Islamabad. How many of those seeds are growing up named Osama or Saddam? How many mosques are used as arms caches? Mullas as cell leaders? Islamic ambulances as attack vehicles? Islam must solve this at its roots or it will be solved for them, most likely by turning their own tactics against them.
So you blame the many for the acts of the few, this is ridiculous. There are a small group of people who are not representative of this religion, who are making the name for the rest of it.
It's not the problem of Islam it's the problem of everyone.
I can't imagine thinking like you erebus, I really can't |
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Mass Pleeze
- FB Fan -
USA
153 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2005 : 10:47:09
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I don't know what to think, really, when I think about it. It seems as if there is no limt to the number of fanatics willing to step up to the plate, as in Iraq, and suicide bomb the holy hell out of police, politicians, US GI's, contractors, whomever; not to mention the home movie stars who gleefully conduct filmed beheadings in the most primitive style. This behavior doesn't wash. Right?
Did you exchange?
Can you Mr. Grieves?
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zub_the_goat
= Cult of Ray =
United Kingdom
639 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2005 : 10:47:23
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| good post kittie, the last thing we need is for one evil act against innocent people to spark off other evil acts against innocent people...there needs to be less spin doctoring more facts |
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Mass Pleeze
- FB Fan -
USA
153 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2005 : 10:48:46
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The crux of it is they have more than their share of Tim McVeighs. Men that go beyond the moral depravity of Tim, way beyond.
Did you exchange?
Can you Mr. Grieves?
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Edited by - Mass Pleeze on 07/07/2005 10:49:53 |
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2005 : 10:52:03
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The actions of the view over-riding the beliefs of the many, it's stupid.
I will not stand by and watch peaceful muslim people be scared to walk the streets because they are targetted for the actions of people unrelated to them and people they do not agree with.
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Edited by - starmekitten on 07/07/2005 10:52:33 |
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2005 : 10:52:15
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Hear hear Tre. Religious fundamentalism doesn´t have a denomination.
By the bye, how many of you have been to a country where Islam is the primary religion?
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Never fuck a gift horse in the mouth. |
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2005 : 10:52:42
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I have been to several and have studied Islam and the koran and Arabic. Why do you ask?
Sometimes, no matter how shitty things get, you have to just do a little dance. - Frank
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Edited by - kathryn on 07/07/2005 10:55:01 |
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speedy_m
= Frankofile =
Canada
3581 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2005 : 10:52:57
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I imagine if Americans were raised in an envinronment where personal actions (such as suicide bombings) were stressed over the jingoistic allegiance to flag and the white house, we'd see a lot more Timothy McVeighs.
watch me jumpstart as the old skin is peeled |
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2005 : 10:57:17
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I just wanted to see who could base their opinions on something more than state television.
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Never fuck a gift horse in the mouth. |
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NimrodsSon
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1938 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2005 : 10:57:57
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No, the problem is not Islam at all. It's a problem of religion in general, of nationalism, militarism, bitterness, and the stupidity (unintelligence, imbecility, whatever you wish to call it) of mankind; and we are all (well, 99% of us, perhaps) responsible for it directly or inderictly--many of us directly by the wars and murder and nationalism we support, calling it patriotism and waving our silly piece of cloth in the air, singing God Bless America or God Save the Queen or whatever it is (it's all the same), while we ruthlessly slaughter millions of our fellow human beings under the guise of defense, vengeance, or national pride. The only way to stop terrorism is indead at its source, which is not some hole in the ground in Saudi Arabia, it's in the hearts and actions of each and every one of us as individuals, and until some great change, some massive revolution, takes place there, we can expect more violence, more death, more hatred, more murder, more terrorism, more you name it. The problem is not Islam at all...
ˇViva los Católicos! http://adrianfoster.dmusic.com/ |
Edited by - NimrodsSon on 07/07/2005 10:59:29 |
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2005 : 11:07:29
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One of the things I love about where I grew up was the lack of ethnic minority because there was no ethnic majority. At school to celebrate eid and diwali and change the school lunches system to help those observe ramadan was as normal as christmas and easter, the first thing we learned to cook was not apple pie or cookies but chapati and dhal. I learned to swear in hindu, urdu and punjabi as well as english which was pretty handy. My aunt married into and converted to Islam, she has two boys, Omar and Adam who are raised as muslims. I strongly believe a multicultural society benefits everyone.
Nearly all muslims I have known have been sweet and peacefull people.
If you are a terrorist you can not be, by definition an muslim. It is un-Islamic, it's something I've heard said a few times today and I for one believe it's true. |
Edited by - starmekitten on 07/07/2005 11:08:02 |
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The Holiday Son
= Quote Accumulator =
France
2023 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2005 : 11:08:14
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| NimrodsSon for president! |
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tobafett
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1713 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2005 : 11:16:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Newo
Religious fundamentalism doesn´t have a denomination.
well said. and thanks kitten for starting this thread.
this is not Islam (capital I)...jihads are not mainstream...this is (as 99% of terror groups are) a super small percentage of religious/political groups. they do not embody the values of the larger religion/group.
don't confuse the two. |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2005 : 11:17:48
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quote:
Originally posted by NimrodsSon
No, the problem is not Islam at all. It's a problem of religion in general, of nationalism, militarism, bitterness, and the stupidity (unintelligence, imbecility, whatever you wish to call it) of mankind; and we are all (well, 99% of us, perhaps) responsible for it directly or inderictly--many of us directly by the wars and murder and nationalism we support, calling it patriotism and waving our silly piece of cloth in the air, singing God Bless America or God Save the Queen or whatever it is (it's all the same), while we ruthlessly slaughter millions of our fellow human beings under the guise of defense, vengeance, or national pride. The only way to stop terrorism is indead at its source, which is not some hole in the ground in Saudi Arabia, it's in the hearts and actions of each and every one of us as individuals, and until some great change, some massive revolution, takes place there, we can expect more violence, more death, more hatred, more murder, more terrorism, more you name it. The problem is not Islam at all...
The spirit of this is sound, but while you wait for your miracle, violent, nationalistic, bitter, stupid nineteen year-olds will provide you with still more time to wait. And then next generation, more of the same. More waiting and hand-wringing. Why can't we all just get along? Tre, I can't imagine thinking like either. |
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2005 : 11:27:33
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| Then whats the answer? attack the many and hope you get the right few in the process? what? |
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PsychicTwin
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1772 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2005 : 11:31:30
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Having grown up in the Middle East during 7 years of my childhood, I lived in Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, and Kuwait.
I can tell you from extensive, personal experience that most of the EDUCATED Muslims and Arabs I have known (during these years and in subsequent ones) are some of the most generous, hospitable, intelligent, warm-hearted people I've had the honor of meeting. The culture, however, is highly insular and expats or foreign residents are fairly isolated from the Muslim culture during everyday life. American women were not allowed to drive there, or wear short skirts in public, etc. You get the idea...
My family was living in Kuwait when Iraq invaded in '91. As a result of this, we lost and were robbed of every single worldly possession. On top of that, my father was taken hostage and was a human shield at strategic sites over the course of five months. This was a harrowing experience, to say the least.
Terrorism and religious fundamentalism are the problems of humanity/society as a whole and need to be approached as such. An us/them mentality is only going to be detrimental to true progress.
Don't let TV feed you your opinions. Get out there, travel, and form your own educated ideas through personal experience and human contact. |
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Dallas
= Cult of Ray =
USA
725 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2005 : 12:00:51
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The hijackers on 9/11 were affluent and educated.
Starmekittens post says something that unfortunately, mainstream muslims are not saying. Where are the muslims in the streets of Europe and the US denouncing terrorism in the name of their "peaceful" religion?? Ask a muslim if the Koran demands the killing of infidels and non-believers.
There should have been countless million-muslim-marches by now. This religion wasnt hijacked by extremists it was handed over to them. And continues to this day. Where are the moderate Imams in Europe blasting the killers in Iraq?? After all this time there is still no viable voice or movement within the muslim community denouncing the killers. It is a joke.
Muslims have stood by and not condemned in the harshest terms their murderous cousins. Where were the US/Canadian/Euro Imams condemning the barbaric reactions to the retracted Newsweek story? there was none. No muslims took responsibility nor even chided their barbaric, violent and ultra-sensitive cousins. Compare that bullshit story to 'artists' placing crucifixes in jars of urine and having it shown in tax subsidized museums.
Finally, save just a bit of worry for your friends who ride the bus or subway to work. Those who work in office towers in major cities. Those who travel and try to live their live in the way they see fit. Because they have all been marked for murder in the name of Islam. |
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2005 : 12:07:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Dallas
Finally, save just a bit of worry for your friends who ride the bus or subway to work. Those who work in office towers in major cities. Those who travel and try to live their live in the way they see fit. Because they have all been marked for murder in the name of Islam.
Your sense of the innapropriate seems as refined as Erebus
Muslims should march the streets in mainland europe? How can they when anger is directed to them, how can they when they are singled and attacked and blamed for these things? These actions are forcing people into hiding and promoting fear.
The muslim council of Britain has most vehemently denounced the terrorists today and stated they did not act in the name of Islam, it is un-Islamic to be a terrorist.
DO you really think that your average muslim in britain is nodding their head in approval of this action or do you think it more likely they are fearing the inevitable backlash created by tabloids and people who are looking for an excuse and a fall guy?
In the name of Islam, bullshit, Islam condemns this action, by the definition of this action, the terrorism, can not take place in the name of Islam.
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Dallas
= Cult of Ray =
USA
725 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2005 : 12:22:59
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"how can they when they are singled and attacked and blamed for these things?"
Just what is the attack rate on Muslims in Britain right now? I had no idea that 'attacks' were happening all over.
"DO you really think that your average muslim in britain is nodding their head in approval of this action or do you think it more likely they are fearing the inevitable backlash created by tabloids and people who are looking for an excuse and a fall guy?
In the name of Islam, bullshit, Islam condemns this action, by the definition of this action, the terrorism, can not take place in the name of Islam."
Not looking for a fallguy. The guy has self-identified. One would have to have their head in the sand to not have noticed that by now.
I assume that the average muslim is too cowed by the masses in their temples to come out and denounce the goals of the Islamists. To march in unity and take back the religion that they have HANDED OVER to extremists. Where are these public displays? Sorry but I wont suspend reality like you do and concoct some world where Muslims in Britain or the US are getting attacked when they enter the streets by gangs of white Christian thugs. If Muslims are afraid to organize against this barbarism it is fear of MUSLIMS, not their local hosts/countrymen. In every case where a Muslim speaks out against misogyny or jihad they have a death sentence placed on them. Not by Christians or agnostics, but, by MUSLIMS.
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2005 : 12:26:57
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quote:
Originally posted by starmekitten
quote:
Originally posted by Dallas
Finally, save just a bit of worry for your friends who ride the bus or subway to work. Those who work in office towers in major cities. Those who travel and try to live their live in the way they see fit. Because they have all been marked for murder in the name of Islam.
Your sense of the innapropriate seems as refined as Erebus
I didn't notice this side of you when Stuart and Owen were offering their opinions on the political underpinnings of the day's events. Or does inappropriate = in disagreement? |
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Stuart
- The Clopser -
China
2291 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2005 : 12:34:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Dallas
The hijackers on 9/11 were affluent and educated.
Starmekittens post says something that unfortunately, mainstream muslims are not saying. Where are the muslims in the streets of Europe and the US denouncing terrorism in the name of their "peaceful" religion?? Ask a muslim if the Koran demands the killing of infidels and non-believers.
There should have been countless million-muslim-marches by now. This religion wasnt hijacked by extremists it was handed over to them. And continues to this day. Where are the moderate Imams in Europe blasting the killers in Iraq?? After all this time there is still no viable voice or movement within the muslim community denouncing the killers. It is a joke.
Muslims have stood by and not condemned in the harshest terms their murderous cousins. Where were the US/Canadian/Euro Imams condemning the barbaric reactions to the retracted Newsweek story? there was none. No muslims took responsibility nor even chided their barbaric, violent and ultra-sensitive cousins. Compare that bullshit story to 'artists' placing crucifixes in jars of urine and having it shown in tax subsidized museums.
Finally, save just a bit of worry for your friends who ride the bus or subway to work. Those who work in office towers in major cities. Those who travel and try to live their live in the way they see fit. Because they have all been marked for murder in the name of Islam.
There have been many Muslims who have been against terrorist acts.... you (I shalnt say 'my friend') are a simple minded racist. How can you believe in what you say?
This is a high class bureau de change, not some Punch & Judy show on the seafront at Margate! |
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2005 : 12:39:21
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An attack, Dallas, comes from more directions than just that of violence. The fact that today two of the sweetest women I know (two muslim women for reference) were scared to let another asian girl walk with them for fear people would think her muslim tells me that something is fucked up right there. The British Nationalist Party in this country has been steadily gaining in popularity, by the way, for BNP read racist fucks, and there have been violent attacks. The BNP encourages people to target mosques, to attack muslims.
When I worked in a childrens hospital last year a young girl was bought in to the burns unit because one of these 'racist fucks' threw a petrol bomb at her and her family because she was asian and wearing a headscarf. My friends mother who had lost her hair through illness and had to wear a headscarf was sworn at and insulted in the street. The tabloid press bash immigrants and propogate the anti-ethnic atmostphere in this country. We're British, we're fairly sensible and mild mannered as a rule, but over recent times the rules have gone to shit. The amount of times I have torn down posters and leaflets suggesting "All Asians Out" I couldn't count.
I have no idea how things are going in the US dallas, but if your attitude is standard, I fear for it.
Jihad, Jihad, how many times have I heard this holy war argument.
And how is it you are expecting the moderate muslims to achieve what governments and countries can not? Terrorism is carried out by groups of individuals, how do you isolate and target them from others? I as again do you attack the many for the hopes of getting at the few? |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2005 : 12:41:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Stuart
There have been many Muslims who have been against terrorist acts.... you (I shalnt say 'my friend') are a simple minded racist. How can you believe in what you say?
Dallas - I apologize for the way you are treated here. |
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Stuart
- The Clopser -
China
2291 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2005 : 12:45:51
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I'm off to bed.... I'll carry this on in the morning... Erebus / Dallas, I really don't understand your way of thinking!
This is a high class bureau de change, not some Punch & Judy show on the seafront at Margate! |
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2005 : 12:46:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
I didn't notice this side of you when Stuart and Owen were offering their opinions on the political underpinnings of the day's events. Or does inappropriate = in disagreement?
To be honest, I didn't want to do this in the other thread, that thread should be about what happened today. I will say reading your and Owens accounts disappointed me greatly, and although you don't want it I feel sorry for you. I do, because like I say that sort of thinking isn't natural to me. The bigger picture dark bending the situation to fit some theory you've always held and will always hold, whatever goes on in the world, seems so narrow to me. Today people died and people were hurt, there's no good reason for it. Today I was scared for my friends and family and am relieved they are safe. Today I was upset because of the way people are already treating two very nice muslim women, so this disturbs me.
I wanted to comment on it, on all three of you, I wanted to suggest that there was a time and a place but I was pretty aware I'd get leapt at for doing so, and that thread doesn't need it. |
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Dallas
= Cult of Ray =
USA
725 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2005 : 13:09:42
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Name calling, but, nothing intelligent to add.
Perhaps you are among the masses who are simply unable to comprehend what is happening in the world. Literally incapable of comprehending it. The good news is that there are adults in this world who will continue to take care of those who are too afraid to deal with reality.
But, I guess I stumped the band. There have been no million muslim marches. There has been no loud, sustained outcry from the Muslim community against terrorists and Jihad. It never happened. |
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2005 : 13:11:58
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I'm sorry, where did I call you names?
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mun chien andalusia
= Quote Accumulator =
Italy
2139 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2005 : 13:11:59
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tho' i'm all for free speech and religious liberty i'll say this. it's not islam's fault if people explode in trains and buses but you must consider that the arab and muslim in general modern culture and tradition does not exclude terrorrism as a concept. it is only an interpretation of the curan but it still is a common belief that it is not prohibited to kill infedels. that has nothing to do with islam as a religion but it has much to do with the type of islam that evolved in saudi arabia the wahabism, which is radical and preaches the holy war against all otrher religions. since the saudi arabians have a lot of money they passed their view of islam where there was need of humanitarian help. for example in bosnia pakistan and indonesia. they offer free schools, scholarships etc but their schools teach their point of view. now this is not a new strategy but it goes on for at least 15-20 years with many western countries that supported it. you remember afganistan? it was the US that trained and armed the talebans against the soviets. but they found out that the mujahedins hated them both.
now the modern muslim culture is one thing islam is another. you may want to know that modern western culture is in debt with the islam culture for a series of things. example: many ancient greek and latin books were saved from the christian church bans and rogues in the middle age by arabs who translated them and conserved them in a time when us civilized burned witches. not to mention the concept that changed mathematics: arabs invented the concept of 0 the non-quantity factor to introduce in math without which math doesn't exist.
bottom line: today's islam is radical and potentially dangerous but not because it's incompatble with democracy and culture as many neo-cons want to believe, but because of the extremist form in which is teached to ignorant masses.
give the muslims wealth, stability dignity and time and they will be like us.
Zen fascists will control you,100% natural |
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Dallas
= Cult of Ray =
USA
725 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2005 : 13:24:48
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"I'm sorry, where did I call you names?"
I was referring to Stuart, not you.
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Homers_pet_monkey
= Official forum monkey =
United Kingdom
17125 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2005 : 14:02:43
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quote:
Originally posted by starmekitten
I will not stand by and watch peaceful muslim people be scared to walk the streets because they are targetted for the actions of people unrelated to them and people they do not agree with.
So right. It's very sad to see.
Don't believe the type!
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Frog in the Sand
-+ Le premiere frog +-
France
2715 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2005 : 14:19:28
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Although I tend to share NimrodsSon's opinion, I think there's actually a particular and fundamental problem with Islam: its quasi inability to evolve and mature, which results in a manicheistic vision of the world, a too frequent resort to violence to solve conflicts in general, and of course an old, constant woman-bashing tradition. This has already been stated, more than once, by many Muslim writers such as Salman Rushdie and Taslima Nasreen (who has been nominated for the Nobel Peace prize 2005).
Btw, an American writer said one day that one can judge the level of civilization of a society by the way it treats women. I think it's also true - even more true - for religions, which are supposed to civilize the heart and the mind.
Just my 2 cents.
Join the Cult of France / And get Honeycomb weeks in advance |
Edited by - Frog in the Sand on 07/07/2005 14:31:19 |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2005 : 14:46:07
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It looks to me like people like to blame something other than themselves when a tragedy occurs. As far as I'm aware, the vast majority of Muslims would thoroughly disagree with terrorism of this sort. There's just a few who take things too far. But isn't this true of all groups? In fact all people in general? Religion is an easy thing to blame, but it's not religion that bombs people, its people. You get extremists in all walks of life.
How's that for a slice of fried gold? |
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Homers_pet_monkey
= Official forum monkey =
United Kingdom
17125 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2005 : 15:06:26
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They just interviewed an Iraqi dentist who's surgery overlooked one of the bomb sites. He said this was nothing compared to what has been happening over in Iraq since Saddam was overthrown. He talked of the 100,000 to 200,000 thousand that have been killed. It may seem disrespectful at first but he has a point. These things are not to be compared, but there is much less of a reaction to all the killings over there.
I instantly thought of what Kitty said too. I really hope he doesn't get attacked for saying something like that.
Don't believe the type!
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2005 : 15:12:25
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You're absolutely right Mike - it made me think twice. I see 'Baghdad Bomb - 30 dead' so often, but when it happens 20 minutes walk from you, it brings it home.
How's that for a slice of fried gold? |
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Homers_pet_monkey
= Official forum monkey =
United Kingdom
17125 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2005 : 15:17:27
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It does and it is understandable that we think like that I guess, but we really have to start thinking more about what is going on in Iraq. There needs to be more of an outcry I guess.
I think too many people (thankfully none of us) have developed a kind of racism since 9/11 (for those that didn't already have it), where they kind of think "Fuck them over there, they are the ones who caused all this", and other such bullshit. People just don't realise that thousand upon thousands of innocents are being killed over there. These people are as innocent as those sat on that bus today.
Don't believe the type!
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Edited by - Homers_pet_monkey on 07/07/2005 15:18:09 |
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2005 : 15:18:38
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It doesn't help matters that a few nights ago the president of the United States once again got on national TV and linked
9/11 to Saddam Hussein.
Sometimes, no matter how shitty things get, you have to just do a little dance. - Frank
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Islam is not the problem
