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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
 Posted - 06/21/2005 : 12:53:17
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I have coffee, I have questions.
Daisy, do you go to church or practice through a denomination or is your spirituality a personal thing, something that holds true for you rather than a specific ideal?
Kathryn, I have very little knowledge of the orthodox church, I think I asked you this in e mail didn't I? I went to an orthodox church once and was more intimidated than I had been by many of the others I went to visit. I think if I had gone from a baptist upbringing into a catholic church I would have had similar fear but being familiar with the incense and decoration (like the massive big stations of the cross) found in catholic churches I'm used to a certain amount of (how to put this) visual in church but the orthodox, was just, massive. There was vast amounts of icons and a giant sort of screen and I just remember it being very imposing. So my knowledge here is small. Similar with Buddhism, something you and Daisy both mention, what are the principle features? is it religion or philosophy? how's it work?
Darwin and Llama, I guess my thinking is along your lines. Llama, I appreciate all of your questions in this thread, I love this sort of civil discussion (and may it stay this way, pointed at anyone thinking of making it less so)
Danjersy, I understand your fears at articulation but if it is just this stopping you posting your thoughts, don't let it. I know all too well it's hard to get meaning accross, I re-wrote my first post many times because I feared being taken the wrong way or not getting my point over (words terrify me) but I figured people would get the meaning or haul me up on it. I am interested in what you have to say, if you want to keep it to you cool, but if it's just the other, the words, don't let them stop you.
Now, Brian, you interest me. First off, thanks for your honesty. After reading Simons post as well, I understand why many people choose not to share this. People are fundamentally judgemental and always too ready to scoff at things that are alien to them, I really am trying very hard to not let the thread go this way. I bang on about it but I want non aggressive, no right and wrong, none of this 'my ideas are better than yours, yours are stupid', I want this to be a nice interesting discussion, and it is interesting it's fascinating. Which leads me where I started, I would have thought of all the christian denominations I know of, catholicism is the least accessible, not saying this as a bitter lapsed catholic, I've made my peace with my upbringing and will admit to a fondness for them (it slays me that as soon as you mention catholicism to many people you automatically get recent highly publicised controversies mentioned without thought for the principles that underpin the denomination) er where was I.. Oh yeah, accesability. Catholocism is both a very intense and very faith driven religion, requirement for mass, and even the actions in mass themselves, transubstantiation blows my mind, absolutely does (and other things I can't think of right now, my knowledge is old and rusty, be patient with me). I remember learning that the wafer I was taking was the body of christ, flipping over and hitting my head on a pew because it freaked me so much. I find it so interesting, going from doubt to such a deep level of faith, if you don't mind me asking, how did this happen? what was it that drew you to this church in particular? I'm glad also you point out this:
quote:
all people of good will are saved
as a good many people use the converse of this as an argument against religion, that religion sells you salvation and you buy it as such. That by having a personal belief and living a good life you are not doing enough, because you have not conformed to a religious group. Even those that believe and don't attend chirch are by some denominations definitions, fucked! I'd be interested in other peoples takes on this before I waffle on about what I think. (I could go on for HOURS). Also, kudos to you for doing what you do in the church based community work.
Floopster! thanks for the posts buddy-o. I think the way you are raised does make a big difference, whilst my family was catholic my mother was not. She went with the will of my father, her upbringing is a strange and painful tale, I remember talking to her about religion and her father was catholic, but not a good one. The only way his religion affected his life and his families in any notable way was the contraceptive issues, my grandmother was oft pregnant and oft miscarried and it was the responsibility of my mother to tend to the other children, as such she missed school and missed out on a lot of her younger years. She told me however she would sometimes go and visit the salvation army and they would welcome her unquestioningly and she found a warmth and support from them, even though they knew that she was not a religious woman, they knew a little about her day to day life. I did some work with the salvation army for a short while around winter months, and whilst none of the religious aspects of the church (oh no, citadel isn't it?) had an impact on me the sense of community did. I remember a christmas dinner for the old of the community, for the people who were alone, it was lovely and the band played and everyone was very happy. I chatted to some of the elderly who were enjoying this (Massive) feast and some of them didn't have any belief and I liked that they were still welcome. Where was I... er.. oh yeah. I do think it is too easy to dismiss religion through the control or percieved control aspects. The cynic in me fully accepts that a lot of religions manipulate for the 'now' appeal to the greed of people and the sale-ability of salvation. But on the small every day level, there are a lot of good things that people of religion do, selflessly, which seems to be less of a feature amongst those unaffiliated to a religious group.
Asides from the hippies and the legions of the unwashed mind.
Simon, another thank you for your post here, and thanks for the approval of the thread, I tries my best me. By your definition of fundamentalism, in that accepting the bible for what it says, do you ever find the need to question this? I mean do you ever think about what the good book says and try to figure the sensibility of certain things? Have there ever been occasions which you find something that you would be, personally in disagreement with (In as much as it is the right of the individual to question what they read I mean, I'm not saying that it's wrong.. I'm not wording this well) I mean also how do you as an individual decide how much to take as true to word, because the word of god dictated to the people and then written down by people, who are basically flawed, always struck me as a point for doubt. Also because of revisions and alterations along the years, how much of the bible is true to form? Nosy aren't I hehe. Once more thanks for the honesty, I understand what you have to say about keeping it schtum, like I say to Brian earlier people are judgemental folk. But do you honestly think it would be easier not to believe, it strikes me as the other way round, what do you base that on?
Pixiesteve, you interest me also.
quote:
sadly there are people like me who can no longer look at someone in the same light after hearing something like that :(
Sorry to pick up on this, but it is a common attitude. I often see non believers look down on people who believe and vice versa and attitudes visibly change when they discover these things about people. But, it strikes me as another form of prejudace, and very assumptive. Again, sorry to pick up on that, but why do you feel that way?
OK, coffee gone cold. Feel free to tell me to mind my own business people or ignore my multitude of questioness. And once more, anything I have worded badly point out, I mean not to get at people or make negative remarks, I mean to question and understand. I ask out of interest, not out of a desire to be right or wrong in what I think, and I ask anyone who questions or comments to think the same, never assume that what you think is the last word in everything because it's not the case, and please don't make people feel bad because the way they feel is different to you. I know I go on, but I am all to aware of how badly this sort of conversation can go if someone doesn't get all old style school ma'm on your collective asses :P
Thanks.
The easiest way to sleep at night is to carry on believing that I don't exist |
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 12:55:55
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It didn't look that long when I was writing it in my defence
The easiest way to sleep at night is to carry on believing that I don't exist |
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 13:36:15
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Ooooooh! I would love to have mun discuss the archaic Greek Orthodox Church, with its beautiful gold-rimmed icons and heavy incense and fear-instilling superstition and complete lack of relevance to modern life. All you need to know about Greek Orthodoxy, kittie, is that women aren't allowed to enter a church when they are menstruating because they are considers unclean and therefor unfit to stand before god.
About Buddhism....
I have to issue a dork alert. You've been warned. Read on at your own risk.
Buddhism is a philosophy more than a religion. There is no god to worship, rather a path to follow or a practice to cultivate. There are many forms of Buddhism because it mutated as it spread from India to Japan. "Kindness, Clarity and Insight" is the title of one of the current Dalai Lama's many accessible books for Westerners - and those 3 ideas are central to any Buddhist practice. A person is to show kindness and more importantly equanimity toward all sentient beings; so, too, one is to seek clarity and insight about the true nature of life. Four "noble truths" comprise the true nature of life: 1) life is suffering and impermanence; 2) all suffering comes from attachment (to transient things bad and good ... your broken heart, your feeling of happiness); 3) but it's possible to cease suffering; 4) by ending attachment/clinging. Buddhism tells you to chill the fuck out and stop wallowing in your feelings of guilt/sadness/fear/whatever and stop freaking out and treat everybody with kindness. What I love most about Buddhism is how it is one and the same with psychotherapy.
I still believe in the excellent joy of the Catholics
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 14:20:47
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quote:
Originally posted by starmekitten
Simon, another thank you for your post here, and thanks for the approval of the thread, I tries my best me. By your definition of fundamentalism, in that accepting the bible for what it says, do you ever find the need to question this? I mean do you ever think about what the good book says and try to figure the sensibility of certain things? Have there ever been occasions which you find something that you would be, personally in disagreement with (In as much as it is the right of the individual to question what they read I mean, I'm not saying that it's wrong.. I'm not wording this well) I mean also how do you as an individual decide how much to take as true to word, because the word of god dictated to the people and then written down by people, who are basically flawed, always struck me as a point for doubt. Also because of revisions and alterations along the years, how much of the bible is true to form? Nosy aren't I hehe. Once more thanks for the honesty, I understand what you have to say about keeping it schtum, like I say to Brian earlier people are judgemental folk. But do you honestly think it would be easier not to believe, it strikes me as the other way round, what do you base that on?
I should probably say before I go anywhere that a lot of things you ask I won't have answers for. This causes problems for people who say well, if you can't be sure on every aspect of your faith then how can it be true?
Your last point first. It would definitely be easier not to be a Christian, which I guess is slightly different to believing or not. As far as how people react to you being a Christian, as far as it would sometimes be preferable to watch the football on a Sunday instead of going to church, as far as not feeling guilty when you do something you know is wrong, sure it would be easier not to be a Christian. If you're referring to faith as a crutch, I wouldn't consider it like that. It takes effort to have faith in something, its a positive thing rather than just a submission to a set of principles, so again - it would be easier to go through life without faith. For me, at least.
As for having doubts and questions, of course I do. More than most Christians I guess. Sometimes I think I try to prove something wrong because of my first point - it would make it easier for me. But I've never been able to do it. I don't really have a set of opinions about different versions of the Bible - I don't speak Hebrew or ancient Greek so I can't really tell you which is the most accurate. I have several, they're all pretty similar.
As far as disagreeing with the Bible, I approach it from the other end: if the Bible is the word of God, then by definition it's my opinion that's wrong.
What's a computer?
Eat Y'self Fitter! |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 14:45:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Cheeseman1000
Your last point first. It would definitely be easier not to be a Christian, which I guess is slightly different to believing or not.
Except being an atheist or agnostic means dealing with the idea that in a few years you'll be gone and never more and the same thing for everyone that you love. Not so easy. It also leaves you with trying to decide whether there is a purpose to your life and what it is. I'm not sure being a believer in god is harder than being a non-believer. |
Edited by - darwin on 06/21/2005 15:43:07 |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 15:30:01
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I see your point. I suppose I was referring to living the life of a Christian. It seems difficult to me, there's a significant stigma. As for believing in God, it's very comforting and gives me a great deal of security, so I suppose you're right. However, it's not (for me, at least) just like being Christian as a default option. One has to make a point of it, its 'faith'.
Again, these are my own viewpoints for my own life. I should've said that more clearly. E.g., It would definitely be easier not to be a Christian for me.
What's a computer?
Eat Y'self Fitter! |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 15:42:47
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| I'm not disagreeing that being a Christian requires effort, but I suppose coming from the US it seems more like the status quo (and thus little stigma) than it does in Europe. |
Edited by - darwin on 06/21/2005 15:46:13 |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 15:44:27
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I think you're probably right. The UK in particular is very secular.
What's a computer?
Eat Y'self Fitter! |
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PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 15:47:24
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starmekitten, no worries about bringing it up, i said it openly so that it *could* be discussed, not just for the sake of it.
lots of things make up a who a person is... their personality... including their view points on a variety of issues. for different people, different aspects are more important than others in determing who they form friendships with. some friendships are based on politcal stances... would you say it's prejediced for someone *generally* not to hang out with BNP voters? god/religion is quite a big issue for me. brought up in an atheist household (but without views being forced on me) i seriously cannot see any reason to believe in god or follow a religion. in many cases it actually makes me feel *sad* to see what i sometimes view to be completely brainwashed citizens... and sometimes just stupid people. that's who i am, and that's a factor in who i make friends with. but like i say, yeah there are loads of different things which make up a person, it *would* be wrong to disregard someone because of one aspect of who they are. but i think it's a fair enough choice if someone sees certain issues as a big deal. genreally, i don't think i'd ever go out or marry a religious person, for me it would be like dating a racist. note: i am not saying they are similar, but they both illustrate a difference of opinion on important topics.
hope this made sense, i probably contradicted myself and have a flawed argument, whateverrrr. maybe it's just down to me being a cunt.
 Oh let it linger |
Edited by - PixieSteve on 06/21/2005 15:51:23 |
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Daisy Girl
~ Abstract Brain ~
Belize
5305 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 18:16:50
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Kitty, actually I don't go to church.
I wish I could. But I am a late riser and it's sheer torture for my agnostic hubbby. The palces that I have felt most at home was the protestant chuch where I grew up in, a grove of pine trees at camp, going to mass at the jesuit church in collge and an ame church where they sung gospel.
so i try to be spiritual and think on a more spiritual plane as much as possible instead. doesn't always work.  |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 19:50:16
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quote:
Originally posted by starmekitten
I do think it is too easy to dismiss religion through the control or percieved control aspects. The cynic in me fully accepts that a lot of religions manipulate for the 'now' appeal to the greed of people and the sale-ability of salvation.
i don't think the 'control aspect' should be underestimated. it's frightening to me that, in this country, arguably, the main reason President Bush is in office is because he appeals (consciously) to the Christian right.
quote:
But on the small every day level, there are a lot of good things that people of religion do, selflessly, which seems to be less of a feature amongst those unaffiliated to a religious group.
Asides from the hippies
i don't think people affiliated with religious groups are more likely to do good or act selflessly than non-religious people.. in my experience there is so much hypocrisy among so-called religious people that it's difficult to consider them above non-religious people in any way. and often times it's the opposite.
maybe it's the areas i've grown up in, but, from my perspective, i see tons of non-(organized)-religious people doing all kinds of good things. |
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Broken Face
-= Forum Pistolero =-
USA
5155 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 20:16:45
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hey guys, sorry to appear MIA, but i'm out of town toa friend's wedding on a computer w/ the world's smallest keyboard (so i apologize for any misspellings) - i will answer all ?s hopefully tomorrow, or if not, later in the week
thanks for being open minded!
-Brian
If you move I shoots!
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danjersey
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
2792 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 20:25:45
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Good God you have one hell of a mind.
i on the other hand have to keep this brief.
faith is what you make of it.
hey i know i'm copin out here but it's too much for me to type.
blame the windows in every classroom i ever sat in.
as an alter boy i had a different veiw from the alter, i once pictured the parish sitting in there pews with a sardine can top unrolling out and covering them from back to front.
screen or face to face?
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Edited by - danjersey on 06/21/2005 22:23:22 |
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Broken Face
-= Forum Pistolero =-
USA
5155 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2005 : 06:04:50
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notes on the first page of questions (i'll get to page 2 next):
Llama - i was not actively seeking out religion. my parents and i had a deal - i would complete the 'sacraments of initiation' (baptism, eucharist, confirmation) and then i was free to do, or not do, whatever i wanted. for confirmation, you have to do X ammount of hours of community service, and i was a lazy 14 year old with a guitar, and i was told i could help out what was called the folk group do music for mass on sundays. so i would sing a little bass and play a little guitar at mass and this would count for my community service, and that sounded all and good to me. there i met a lot of really nice and NORMAL people at church (something i never thought could happen) who were around my age and i became friends with them. from there, they invited me on a retreat that i begrudgingly went on and i started to hang out a bit more. from there i just started asking more questions. the people there were, as i said, normal and nice and willing to talk and debate with me and i started to feel at home there. that's pretty much it as far as how it all started. it has grown a lot and gotten a lot more complicated since then, but my roots as a believer start there.
Cheese - don't let anyone tell you that your faith is WRONG - pardon the scripture quote but 'faith is to certain of things unseen' - faith is what you make of it and you should be proud of who you are and if you are happy with what you believe than i am too
Carolynanna - true feminism is eqaulity, and i am 100% for equality between all races, creeds, genders, etc. anyone who isn't a feminist in today's culture truly has my sympathies for being so uninformed and out of touch
-Brian
If you move I shoots!
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Broken Face
-= Forum Pistolero =-
USA
5155 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2005 : 06:28:36
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page 2...
tre - like i said before, it was the people there who really attracted me to that particular church. plus, it helped that i was raised from a distance as a catholic i am sure, and that my grandmother was still alive and who was a very devout person who just liked to talk about God and all that jazz, even when others would tune her out. i was actually asked to give the eulogy at her funeral because i was the only son/daughter/grandchild who has an active faith life, and it was the hardest yet most fulfilling thing i've ever done in my life - and a big part of my faith now is the memory of being in church, talking about Nana and about how her influence meant a lot to me and brought me into questioning which brought me into faith and seeing my athiest uncle crying at what i was saying (not like crying because he hated me, but he was just moved by my words, and this is a guy who HATES what i do and refuses to talk to me about my job).
and then, when i started thinking about other denominations, catholicism just seemed most 'legit' as funny as that seems for a few reasons:
a) i personally have a much looser interpretation of the Bible than a lot of other Christian faiths, and i don't think i could be somewhere where people literally believe every word - its just not my style
b) i see episcopalian/church of england as sort of catholic lite, and it was founded so that a king could get a legal divorce, which sort of turns me off in principle (although i applaud them for their recent work towards removing the anti-gay clergy rules)
c) there is something called 'the apostolic tradition' which says that Jesus annointed peter, who annointed bishops, who annointed bishops and so and on and so on and that bishop annointed me on my confirmation - there is an unbroken line between Christ and myself - and that is kind of cool when you think about it (well, at least to a theology nerd like me)
d) the only other faith that really appealed to me was the Religious Society of Friends, aka Quakers, because they are so peace-heavy and really into acceptance. but i just feel more at home as a Catholic i suppose
i know there are many problems with the church, and i know that they have done a lot of shitty things in the past (crusaides, etc), but like i said earlier, i try and focus on the local good my parish does, as opposed to the figurehead. just like how you can love living in a specific city but hate the president/prime minister/etc.
now, as for catholics being the most un-welcoming, or 'least accessible' of all the christian denomination, i don't agree. however, maybe the church in my town was just different than the one in yours. i would actually really love for some people here to come visit where i worship just to see what i mean about how accepting and welcoming a parish can be - and to get their take on things - i'm a closet sociologist too
now simon, you brought up a GREAT point - at times it IS hard to be a Christian in the world. i couldn't agree more. trust me, i know. when more than 1/2 your extended family things you're an idiot and makes jokes at your expense at the dinner table and refuses to respect your beliefs, its hard. when a college friend asks "when will you get that cross out of your ass?" its hard. when your friends don't come to your halloween party b/c you rented the CHURCH hall, its hard. however, as long as you are happy with who you are, once again, all i can say is more power to you. i have just tried to surround myself with people who like me for being unique and who don't want some cookie-cutter guy. i know my faith/job is intimidating to people, and i hope that i am breaking down that barrier a little bit - i still love frank black, have a girlfriend, scream at the fucking mets on tv, masturbate, get mad at people, etc. having faith does not preclude you from a normal life, and thats my personal goal to get my friends/family to realize. but man is it hard sometimes. so i hear you on it being hard to live as a Christian. i'll never forget the laughs i've gotten at school for giving up meat for lent (which i did for 5 years) or for traveling so far to find a church that fit me (1.5 hours each way by 2 buses) or by wearing my cross under my shirt each day (you'd be SHOCKED how many people would literally point and laugh if my cross fell out of my shirt). but like i said, keep on keeping on friend.
steve - i agree, i get upset when i see people who fanatically follow a denomination and appear to be brainwashed - that is not what faith is though. that is the far extreme of faith, and should not be mistaken for it as such. this is like if people say that all rock music is something as overthetop and ridiculous as Gwar. that is one extreme, but there are millions of shades of grey in this area.
tony - i agree, some of the best people i know (in terms of doing good deeds) don't believe in God, and thats cool with me. i don't think they're any less special or nice or anything else. this just works for me, and i hope that whatever they do works for them
now i need coffee
-Brian
If you move I shoots!
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Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2005 : 12:38:00
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PixieSteve, what happened to your post?
I've got a few general questions, but mostly based on what BrokenFace and Cheeseman said. I'm not trying to be antagonistic, so excuse me if it comes across that way (eggshells, eggshells).
One of the most important things about religion it seems to me is the sense of community it brings to people. Unfortunately that sense of community is often used by so-called cults to bring people into their fold. How do the religious people on the forum feel about that, and can there be parallels drawn between mainstream religions and these cults? Obviously there are differences, eg cults are usually led by a strongly charasmatic,living, figurehead.
Also, for people who take the bible literally (I'm looking at you Cheeseman ;~),how do they reconcile the perceived view of the bible on homosexuality and female clergy, for instance - there must be many more examples, but those come to mind - with the more liberal views expected these days? I say 'perceived views' as I can't be 100% certain of the bible's presentation of these issues. Is it a case of ignoring these issues?
On the issue of speaking out about your faith, I would encourage anybody who has a religious faith to be proud of it, open about it, and open to discussion about it. People are different, and to paraphrase Mick Hucknall(sadly  ) it's the differences that make life interesting. I haven't ever, and wouldn't, think less of someone who has a faith. I'd just debate more often with them ;)
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No power in the 'verse can stop me
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PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2005 : 12:42:05
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damn you can't get away with anything on this board.
Oh let it linger |
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Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2005 : 12:42:11
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Oh, I also meant to confess that when my wife had a placental abruption during the birth of our daughter, I prayed to every single god I could think of :D
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No power in the 'verse can stop me
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Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2005 : 12:43:40
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quote:
Originally posted by PixieSteve
damn you can't get away with anything on this board.
Don't worry, I won't tell ;)
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No power in the 'verse can stop me
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2005 : 13:00:18
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Oh I saw it too steve.. I might tell.
Llama! It's you, stretching the page!
The easiest way to sleep at night is to carry on believing that I don't exist |
Edited by - starmekitten on 06/22/2005 13:15:00 |
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PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2005 : 13:28:30
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huh? not stretched for me... i have a fairly high res though. i notched it down to see, and it only stretched on IE. another reason to use firefox!
anyway... personal evolution...
Oh let it linger |
Edited by - PixieSteve on 06/22/2005 13:33:17 |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2005 : 13:34:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Llamadance
Also, for people who take the bible literally
continuing with this
how come when a woman has a miscarriage they don't give the aborted foetus its last rites, yet most Catholics are against abortion because they consider foetus' human beings |
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danjersey
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
2792 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2005 : 13:39:43
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oh my, thats a good question.
death is death. |
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Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2005 : 13:40:05
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quote:
Originally posted by starmekitten
Oh I saw it too steve.. I might tell.
Llama! It's you, stretching the page!
The easiest way to sleep at night is to carry on believing that I don't exist
Eh? Do you mean to the side, cause it's fine here (firefox-1024x768, btw;) I saw that before and thought you meant lengthways 
I'll try and fix it, it's probably the line above my sig. Sorry. |
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PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2005 : 13:42:30
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aren't last rites give to someone who is dying rather than actually dead? that's why.
Oh let it linger |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2005 : 13:43:51
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quote:
Originally posted by PixieSteve
aren't last rites give to someone who is dying rather than actually dead? that's why.
Oh let it linger
you know what i mean. last rites. final blessing. whatever they call it
(a little help. Catholics??) |
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PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2005 : 13:45:45
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yeah.. given to someone who's dying... that's the only definition i can find?
oh, wait, you mean it might not be the "last rites" that you're thinking of. aye, catholics?
Oh let it linger |
Edited by - PixieSteve on 06/22/2005 13:51:25 |
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Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2005 : 13:51:36
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gah, why do people keep deleting posts? 
________________________________________________________________________________
No power in the 'verse can stop me
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Edited by - Llamadance on 06/22/2005 13:57:21 |
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danjersey
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
2792 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2005 : 13:52:58
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so what once you are dead you're SOL?
loopholes big fat F'n loopholes |
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danjersey
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
2792 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2005 : 13:57:13
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| yeah, my anger is confused now it seems out of place |
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danjersey
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
2792 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2005 : 14:09:36
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if you are looking for one and only answer from catholics you won't find one. it it's a game of chinese whispers, each parrish is a tribe and each family a clan. when i was young i figured even Gandi was in hell because he did'nt pray to the holy trinity. i know this is a topic is on faith in genral so i'll try to leave me out of it.
"lock and key" symbolism.
peace |
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2005 : 14:15:07
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Ok, so confused. First off, you guys, no idea.
My page is stretched, but I am internet retarded.
From my wobbly memory here floop, when a baby dies unchristened, it does not go to heaven or hell but purgatory, purgatory is a stop gap between the transition to heaven and this is a strictly catholic belief, in catholic prayer you pray for the deceased and the family of the deceased, in most other denominations you don't pray for the deceased because they have gone to their afterlife, ie to heaven. Catholics pray for those in purgatory to help quicken the passage through to heaven, purgatory is like a punishment, thats too strong a word, you know, typically 'hell' is the punishment and purgatory is where people have to go to work through the sins before moving on. An unchristened child is still carrying original sin and so has to go to purgatory, christening I believe absolves original sin. Christening, Confirmation and the last rites are all, ach whats the word... sacraments, rites of passage catholics have seven (buggered if I can remember all of them) and extreme unction (is that right?) or the last rites is the one to ease passage into death. I only know the catholic slant here and I may have confused it, I'll check, I know when my nan passed it was one of the first things I asked, if she recieved them, I was glad she did.
Seriously, correct me please.
The easiest way to sleep at night is to carry on believing that I don't exist |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2005 : 14:27:16
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I'm not sure what you mean re cults exactly - for me its a personal thing before its a community thing.
As for the views of the Bible versus the views of the world, I have to cop out and and say I honestly don't have strong opinions on homosexuality, abortion and the like. I know that some people do, but I don't think that my judging anyone is helpful, justifiable or even right. If I was perfect myself, perhaps I could justify condemning something. But I certainly ain't, so I definitely won't. Someone said earlier, its a cliche to say oh, well I have gay friends. But I do, it creates no difficulty for me, and it's not something to me that warrants an argument.
Generally, the Bible isn't as judgemental as people think, in so specific a way. Nobody's a good enough person, so we're all on the same level.
What's a computer?
Eat Y'self Fitter! |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2005 : 18:18:50
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quote:
Originally posted by starmekitten
Ok, so confused. First off, you guys, no idea.
My page is stretched, but I am internet retarded.
From my wobbly memory here floop, when a baby dies unchristened, it does not go to heaven or hell but purgatory, purgatory is a stop gap between the transition to heaven and this is a strictly catholic belief, in catholic prayer you pray for the deceased and the family of the deceased, in most other denominations you don't pray for the deceased because they have gone to their afterlife, ie to heaven. Catholics pray for those in purgatory to help quicken the passage through to heaven, purgatory is like a punishment, thats too strong a word, you know, typically 'hell' is the punishment and purgatory is where people have to go to work through the sins before moving on. An unchristened child is still carrying original sin and so has to go to purgatory, christening I believe absolves original sin. Christening, Confirmation and the last rites are all, ach whats the word... sacraments, rites of passage catholics have seven (buggered if I can remember all of them) and extreme unction (is that right?) or the last rites is the one to ease passage into death. I only know the catholic slant here and I may have confused it, I'll check, I know when my nan passed it was one of the first things I asked, if she recieved them, I was glad she did.
Seriously, correct me please.
The easiest way to sleep at night is to carry on believing that I don't exist
Jesus Christ! that is complicated! |
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VoVat
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
9168 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2005 : 22:47:34
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I've never really been religious. When I was a kid, my family went to a Presbyterian church, but my parents were basically agnostic. I can definitely see the appeal of religion, and I think a lot of them have the basics right, but I really can't have faith in any supernatural powers or entities. I don't think it's something I need in my life, either. I guess it's possible that this will land me in Hell, but, well, I don't think an omniscient God would be impressed if I faked it (which is essentially what Pascal's Wager suggests doing).
I found Tre's question about only seeking local religions to be interesting. A lot of people simply accept the religion of their parents, or someone else in their own society. What if it turns out that the one true faith (assuming there is one) isn't something they practice in your area? I don't necessarily think choosing a convenient religion is a bad thing, but I'm coming at this from an outsider's perspective. If you really want to practice the correct religion, doesn't it make sense to consider ALL of them?
As for atheism, this page has some useful definitions. Here's a quote:
"Atheism is characterized by an absence of belief in the existence of gods. This absence of belief generally comes about either through deliberate choice, or from an inherent inability to believe religious teachings which seem literally incredible. It is not a lack of belief born out of simple ignorance of religious teachings.
"Some atheists go beyond a mere absence of belief in gods: they actively believe that particular gods, or all gods, do not exist. Just lacking belief in Gods is often referred to as the 'weak atheist' position; whereas believing that gods do not (or cannot) exist is known as 'strong atheism'."
So I suppose strong atheism would be a form of belief in and of itself, while weak atheism would not. I guess I'm basically a weak atheist.
quote:
I remember learning that the wafer I was taking was the body of christ
You mean the death cookie? <g>
quote:
As far as how people react to you being a Christian, as far as it would sometimes be preferable to watch the football on a Sunday instead of going to church, as far as not feeling guilty when you do something you know is wrong, sure it would be easier not to be a Christian.
Feeling guilty when you do something wrong isn't limited to religious people, though. It's part of having a conscience, and of living in polite society. Different religions, cultures, and philosophies often have different ideas of what is considered wrong, although there are some general standards.
I was all out of luck, like a duck that died. I was all out of juice, like a moose denied. |
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personal evolution
