| Author |
 Topic  |
|
starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
 Posted - 06/19/2005 : 15:16:43
|
heh, well not quite.
Been talking of late about religion, faith and belief. Thought I would continue the conversation on here. So some questions. Do you believe in God and do you have faith? Were you bought up into your religion or did you choose it for youself? Do you ever examine, I mean look real hard at your religion and question it? If so what do you find? If you do not believe and have no faith what made you decide it and where do you feel it most? Does faith live in the heart or the head or somewhere else? When looking at religion do you see just "bullshit" or do you see certain sensible underlying principles? Have you ever considered changing religions? How much do you know about the belief systems in other religion asides from your own? Are religious belief and faith intertwined or can they be seperated, by this I mean can you still believe and have faith and not be a member of a religious group/denomination etc? Is deciding you don't believe an easy way out? Is religion an emotional refuge or is it more than that?
Lot of questions I know and they don't all apply to everyone. This isn't meant to be a right vs wrong set of questions, not a rally cry for either side of belief or non belief I'm just very interested on peoples takes on this. Someone made a comment on forum a while back now and I've been talking about it off forum and it's quite interesting. True believers, people with true faith always seem so serene and wholesome and grounded (which makes most atheists and cynics sick with jealousy - not that we'd admit it), someone told me once religion was a crutch for the emotionally weak, a support for people who couldn't support themselves. Another person told me once that having God in your life meant never feeling alone.
I'm pretty well documented as having no faith, but wasn't a lightly taken thing. I was raised into a strict catholic family, my grandparents were devout and my father was up until a few years ago. I went to catholic school and attended mass every week but as soon as I was old enough to decide for myself I didn't go anymore because I didn't buy it. I had to question though, if it was God I didn't have faith in or the Catholic church. Starting with christianity I read around and visited the places of many different denominations. salvation army, pentecostals, baptists, quakers, church of england and on and on and on, many different ones. I spoke to people in the churches/places of worship and asked them questions and none of it really sat right and did nothing for my lack of faith. You could see a determinable difference in those that really believed and really had faith and those that didn't, it was almost like being in a big dark room with some people who had torches and some who didn't. The people with the torches could move around happily and those without bumped into things and questioned everything they came across and were secretly envious of the torch carriers whilst knowing we could never carry a torch ourself. Thats a pretty flawed metaphor there and I am sure some athiest will kick my ass for this but it's like they know a secret we don't.
So I didn't believe in a christian God, but does questioning religion have to stop at the religions local to you? Where I was raised was a very multicultural area. I left Catholic school and went to another junior school where I was one of only three white kids in the class and that was the same throughout the school so when we prayed in assembly it wasn't just Christian prayer there were lots of prayer, we had easter and christmas as well as eid and diwali, we learned about hinduism, islam, sikhism, judaism. When I was a lot older I'd read about eastern religions and philosophy, taoism, buddhism etc etc. So much I don't remember now, but I know still none of it sparked anything resembling faith. I can see logical aspects in all of them, but nothing that would direct me to faith.
So this is my non aggressive thread, none of this right and wrong bullshits please, personal evolution, what you believe and how you arrived at it is what I'm asking. Plus if anyone has looked at, questioned or studied this in great length I would love to know more.
Me, I looked and had no faith. However, my Catholic upbringing has left it's mark in guilt. Catholic guilt is not a myth, I have it, like the guy said in that film, you know it....
I don't believe in God, but I'm afraid of him
yeah thats the one
The easiest way to sleep at night is to carry on believing that I don't exist |
Edited by - starmekitten on 10/26/2005 10:19:41 |
|
|
Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2005 : 15:54:17
|
Well. I'm just about off to bed, but I'll have a stab at this first. Hope I've not missed the point.
I'm very interested in religion and love to debate/talk about it. I've never believed in a god, even from quite young. My mother is protestant, but my father is atheist, and religion was never forced down our throats. Hell, me and my sister aren't even christened.
I've looked at many religions, though I can't remember much nowadays and none of them have really struck a chord. I guess spirituality comes into it, and sadly, much of what is good about religion (morals etc) is overlooked because it is within a religious framework. We can learn a lot from religion, just not in a faith setting IMHO.
Strictly speaking, I feel that atheism is similar to faith. ie to be an atheist, you have to have faith that there isn't a god. So really, in the absence of proof either way(and faith), agnosticism is the logical course. So there might be a god, or there might not. We'll never really know, unless we die, and there is.
It's quite hard to stay away from a "right and wrong bullshit" stance for me, because I usually argue one side of this. I have tried to take the "faith" side of things in discussions, but ultimately I fail, because I don't have faith. Or don't have enough knowledge to argue on the side of faith, which is ironic.
Um, I think this a bit incoherent, kind of random thoughts frankensteined together, but you get my drift.
quote:
How much do you know about the belief systems in other religion asides from your own? Are religious belief and faith intertwined or can they be seperated, by this I mean can you still believe and have faith and not be a member of a religious group/denomination etc?
I hope that people feel they can have faith, but not be part of a denomination. To take the christian churches as an example, it feeds their power to say " you must go to church every sunday". If there is a god, I think it would look into the hearts and minds of people, not whether they got their best suit out every sunday and then said women can't be ministers.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No power in the 'verse can stop me |
 |
|
|
starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2005 : 16:10:55
|
no not missing the point at all there, articulating something I was struggling to word as well...
quote:
Strictly speaking, I feel that atheism is similar to faith. ie to be an atheist, you have to have faith that there isn't a god. So really, in the absence of proof either way(and faith), agnosticism is the logical course. So there might be a god, or there might not. We'll never really know, unless we die, and there is.
I tend to bandy the word atheist about because it's easily recognised by a lot of people and is the easiest way to explain things, to go off on what I actually think would take time and most people I meet, lack attention spans. I often think atheism is in the same way as religiousness deciding on a definitive. There is no god, there is a god. I don't have faith but I could be wrong in saying there is no God, I don't think I have enough of a sense of conviction there to say that. Just as I don't have that there is, I have a leaning toward there not being one but I don't have the belief to say for sure. I fully accept I could be wrong, but I doubt it.
Crumbs I'm getting all waffley now.
Also, the reason I said the right vs wrong thing is because mostly in conversations like these, people get alienated and things get aggressive and heated by the sides that have a deep conviction, I sort of didn't want people to feel they couldn't post what they thought without having some extremist flame them as wrong.
Lastly, I love this
quote:
have tried to take the "faith" side of things in discussions, but ultimately I fail, because I don't have faith. Or don't have enough knowledge to argue on the side of faith, which is ironic.
because I am quite argumentative and I like to take the opposite stance to where my alliegences lie sometimes with people in whatever argument I'm having because I often think to know and believe in your side well you have to at least have an understanding of the other
(and thanks for posting in the thread, I'm getting the paranoid heebeejeebees tonight)
The easiest way to sleep at night is to carry on believing that I don't exist |
Edited by - starmekitten on 06/19/2005 16:13:19 |
|
|
|
Daisy Girl
~ Abstract Brain ~
Belize
5305 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2005 : 18:37:19
|
[quote]Originally posted by Daisy Girl
Very intersting thread.
I am a Christian... haven't always been.
Due to my upbringing of my mother... who comes from a very scary bible thumping background... it turned me off until my late 20's. Another part of it is we eneded up going to a church in my late teens because they had the best youth group. But, every sermon I attended a was about money... so I quit going.
I have looked at many other spiruital paths... including shutting a divine presence out due to me not understanding why there is pain in the world during my pre teens and teens.
I have have been to Temple with some Jewish frends and I have also come to know Islamic friends... for that reason I don't eat pork.
I however during my teens I tried to read every book I could about every sort of relgion and phlisophy... uncluding islam, occult and satainism... just so I could understand what they are about. And except for Satinism and black which craft... they're all very similar... focusing on the good and bettement of people. Much more similar than they are different.
So know I am very spiritual, try to recognize the divine in everyone and not judge.
My real belief though is probably a mix of Buddism, Taoism and Christianity.
There is no one right path... and there are many good paths. It's up to the individual to find his or hers. And I am guessing in God's eyes... it's all pretty much the same too (except for the exceptions I have made.)
The only other religion I have thought of being is Catholic... since most of my friends are and I went to a Jesuit Church with them from time to time in college. I really like the Jesuit branch. |
Edited by - Daisy Girl on 06/19/2005 18:38:24 |
|
|
|
kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2005 : 19:17:34
|
I appreciate people's thought-provoking responses on this important topic.
I grew up Greek-Orthodox, a church which afforded me no sense of connection or meaning. For many
years I earnestly studied various religions and belief systems, eventually earning a four-year degree
in philosophy and Buddhism. Truth be told the only time now when I feel a sense of awe or spirit is
when I am in a swimming pool or listening to good music. I'm sorry if that sounds offensive or trite.
It works for me and it is a culmination of years of true searching.
I still believe in the excellent joy of the Catholics |
|
|
|
darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2005 : 21:03:52
|
| I'm agnostic. Same reasons as Llamadance. I don't believe there's a god, but don't think I know enough to say there isn't one. I've never had any religious training. My parents aren't religious and the only time I've ever been in a church or synagogue is for weddings, funerals, and tourism. So, my point of view isn't well informed by the religious side. I've often thought I should try reading the Bible (and Shakespeare and many other things), but it always seems like too much work. |
|
|
|
danjersey
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
2792 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2005 : 21:53:25
|
I can't change the way i was raised but I have changed.
i'm gonna just sit and listen.
thanks for posting this Starmekitten.
|
|
|
|
Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2005 : 03:12:00
|
Has anybody here ever changed religions, or had an epiphany to go from atheism/agnosticism to an organised religion? That whole aspect of things intrigues me. Is it because people come across something they can't explain except through religious means?
edit *just noticed some of that was asked in the first post, sorry.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No power in the 'verse can stop me |
Edited by - Llamadance on 06/20/2005 03:15:52 |
|
|
|
PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2005 : 03:47:53
|
to say you don't have faith because you don't believe in a region sounds like you have no hope in life. i have faith, just not in a god.
 Oh let it linger |
|
|
|
kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2005 : 05:00:49
|
quote:
Originally posted by Llamadance
Has anybody here ever ... had an epiphany to go from atheism/agnosticism to an organised religion? That whole aspect of things intrigues me.
Again, not to offend anybody but ... every single time I've known an atheist or agnostic
be moved to "believe" or join a religion, that person turned into a mindless lemming.
I have faith in myself. Is that arrogant or hopeless? I feel neither.
I still believe in the excellent joy of the Catholics |
|
|
|
PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2005 : 05:18:23
|
what i meant was that just because someone doesn't believe in a religion or god, it doesn't mean they cannot have faith. to say you have no faith to me sounds like you don't enjoy life. you're a perfect example in proving that someone can still have faith regardless of religion (if i've understood you correctly), and therefore far from hopeless (in that respect  )
or something
Oh let it linger |
|
|
|
Joey Joe Jo Jr. Chabadoo
* Dog in the Sand *
1079 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2005 : 05:56:02
|
eye am square as a triangle
I surrender body and soul to our Lord Saviour |
|
|
|
starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2005 : 12:32:21
|
I meant faith in the godly sense.
I guess I don't have a lot in the other sense though.
Does this mean I don't enjoy life?
Where's that smiths best of gone...
The easiest way to sleep at night is to carry on believing that I don't exist |
|
|
|
kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2005 : 13:01:50
|
The Smiths on this topics
"The Church all they want is your money"
I still believe in the excellent joy of the Catholics |
|
|
|
Broken Face
-= Forum Pistolero =-
USA
5155 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2005 : 14:06:54
|
i moved from agnosticism to an organized religion in my teenage years, however i am very open to new thoughts on faith and religion and the lot. i was brought to church every now and then with my grandmother and mother growing up, but in my high school years i started doing more questioning and trying of things and found a church where i felt quite comfortable.
i usually do not discuss it on this forum, because certain people who used to post here more often were often not very nice about things when i would bring it up (no one in this thread of course, y'all are cool with me), but i am Catholic and actually WORK for a Catholic church for my day job - i run youth programs for a parish in NJ.
HOWEVER, just because i am Catholic does not mean i am homophobic (its totally cliche but true, some of my best friends are gay, and i 100% percent support gay marriage and do not believe that homosexuality is unnatural or any of that other bullshit), or anti-women (i am 100% pro-women in the priesthood, and i consider myself a feminist and even though i would never encourage anyone to get an abortion b/c i think there are a lot more options than people usually realize {ie. adoption}, i respect Roe V. Wade and think it was the right move for the US at the time),
plus, i have a degree in theology, and have studied religions for most of my academic career and therefore i did not make my decisions lightly or without a great deal of thought. i do not think that any other faiths are wrong, this just fits me for various reasons. also, which many people don't realize, is that the Catholic church is the only "main-line" Chrisitianity that beleives that all people of good will are saved, not just their own sect.
do i have my issues with the Church? hell yes! As my boss says "Anyone who doens't question the Church is a fool." However, i also have my reservations about being American, about Western Culture, and about just about everything else in my life. Most of my issues are with the "Church" in Rome, ie. the Vatican and what they spew forth as Catholic truths. while i respect the people in those roles and (hopefully) believe that they have good intentions, i concern myself more with how my local church deals with things - we take in the homeless over the summer, we give money to all sorts of places, we put up families out of work in a hotel, we donate food to a soup kitchen weekly, we provide rides, medicine/food pick up and simple medical care for the elderly, etc.
also, i am not a zealot with my faith, i would never tell someone they are wrong for believing anything and i do not think that the Church has all the answers - parts of it just fit me the best. i hope everyone here can respect that.
-Brian
If you move I shoots!
|
|
|
|
kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2005 : 14:42:24
|
What a beautiful post, Brian. You are a credit to catholics. Not just Catholics.
I still believe in the excellent joy of the Catholics |
|
|
|
floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2005 : 14:50:56
|
i personally have no use for religion. i think there are many positives that come with some belief systems: sense of community, teaching good values, basic common sense morality stuff.. but there are so many problems caused by religious conflits that it sometimes outweighs the good.
i think we'd benefit more from being concerned with how life is in the here and now, on the planet, than focusing on some idealized afterlife that isn't coming (in my opinion, of course).. with certain religions, it doesn't seem to matter that we're fucking up our world because it'll all be good in the afterlife. but for me, i think the only heaven and hell is here on earth in this life. we can make it better or we can make it worse
most religions just seem like a way for those in control to keep control.. and most people seem willing to sign up because they're afraid to accept the unknown |
Edited by - floop on 06/20/2005 15:06:13 |
|
|
|
kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2005 : 15:05:50
|
quote:
Originally posted by floop
most people seem willing to sign up because they're afraid to accept the unknown
I strongly agree.
I see people looking to religion to put a pretty bow on their more uncomfortable feelings. Like, there's this line and it's a sin to cross it and I'd better stay over here and be miserable but within the church.
If I were to boil down Buddhism's most salient tenet, I'd say that it tells you that it's OK to stand ambiguity and difficult feelings and contradiction. You don't reach for the crutch of religious don'ts, but instead you observe your emotional discomfort.
I still believe in the excellent joy of the Catholics |
|
|
|
floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2005 : 18:44:34
|
quote:
Originally posted by kathryn
You don't reach for the crutch of religious don'ts, but instead you observe your emotional discomfort.
i'm occupied enough with my hemorrhoidal discomfort |
|
|
|
kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2005 : 19:18:14
|
*mutters to herself ...
don't post a picture of Preparation H in tre's religion thread
don't post a picture of Preparation H in tre's religion thread
don't post a picture of Preparation H in tre's religion thread
don't post a picture of Preparation H in tre's religion thread*
I still believe in the excellent joy of the Catholics |
|
|
|
floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2005 : 19:29:27
|
to answer your question better tre, i wasn't raised in a religious family. we hardly ever went to church. i was in a youth group when i was a kid but that was more about having fun with friends. my parents didn't put ANY pressure on me religiously. i think because my dad was so turned off with his hardcore Catholic/Pentocostal upbringing..
i do think everyone is a product of their enviornment though. i'm sure the people i hung out with, literature i was exposed to, and my educational background etc. all shaped who i am. as with everyone. could have been a completely different scenario if i were raised by Scientologists or something |
|
|
|
kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2005 : 19:33:15
|
*resist temptation to make scientology joke*
I still believe in the excellent joy of the Catholics |
|
|
|
Daisy Girl
~ Abstract Brain ~
Belize
5305 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2005 : 19:36:53
|
beautiful post mr. brian!
very nice that we can have such a civil and interesting conversation about such a personal matter... speaks highly of the folks here! |
|
|
|
danjersey
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
2792 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2005 : 19:48:57
|
when i first read this topic i thought that i would have a lot to say, but as i read on and try to write some coherant
thoughts of my own on the subject of faith i find myself stammering.
i'm glad that you have made the effort, for most of my adult life i've kept faith under lock and key.
so write on. |
|
|
|
Llamadance
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2543 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 07:05:24
|
dan, why did you keep faith under lock and key?
Broken Face, your post reads like you were actively seeking a religion, why was that? What parts of catholicism drew you in, as opposed to the other christian religions? Also,your job sounds like it must be very rewarding, hope the people you help remember to thank you.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________
No power in the 'verse can stop me
 |
|
|
|
Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 10:25:55
|
Same as Brian, the last few times this has been discussed turned into right vs. wrong. I was raised Christian and remain so. I've certainly questioned my faith, and came to the conclusions that it would be far, far easier to not be a Christian. Nevertheless, I don't think I couldn't be (if you'll excuse the awkward double negative).
It tends to be easier to keep it quiet, which I slightly regret. The difficulty is that I would describe my faith as maybe 'conservative', or 'fundamental', which has most people running for the hills. It's not like you're thinking - more of an acceptance of things as they are presented in the Bible, not based on any denomination, or human ideas at all. As I said, it would be alot easier to not be like this, but I've seen no evidence to dissuade me from my opinions.
I would be quite happy to recommend my faith, but I don't think pushing it on people would help.
What's a computer?
Eat Y'self Fitter! |
|
|
|
PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 10:30:39
|
sadly there are people like me who can no longer look at someone in the same light after hearing something like that :(
Oh let it linger |
|
|
|
Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 10:42:22
|
That's OK, I look at you as the chav that got banned.
I jest, really I do.
What's a computer?
Eat Y'self Fitter! |
|
|
|
PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 10:54:02
|
lol... a chav? do you even know what a chav is 'cause i didn't think they went to sunday school ;)
Oh let it linger |
|
|
|
Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 10:58:55
|
You'd be surprised, you big Ned.
Heh, right, I'm stopping. Let's go make fun of scientologists.
What's a computer?
Eat Y'self Fitter! |
|
|
|
PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 11:03:49
|
yeah, my momentary "eugh, he's a christian" has passed, don't worry :)
scientologists. i found out a bit about scientology the other day, it really DOES deserve to be taken the piss out of.
Oh let it linger |
|
|
|
starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 11:07:22
|
Oi, you buggers, I'm trying for a nice non teasy thread here, leave the weirdos, I mean scientologists alone.
Or keep it mild.
who stretched the page, CONFESS!
The easiest way to sleep at night is to carry on believing that I don't exist |
Edited by - starmekitten on 06/21/2005 11:07:56 |
|
|
|
Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 11:11:05
|
The scientologists did it!
I really am stopping now. It's a good thread, I say that rarely.
What's a computer?
Eat Y'self Fitter! |
|
|
|
starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 11:15:13
|
Actually, Steve if you're around (and don't mind) share what you learned please, I have only really come accross them (scientology folk) once when they gave me a free coffee if I filled in a questionare for them (a questionare which decreed I'm likely to have killed myself by the time I reach 25 I think it was, only a few more months...) it was good coffee but they were kind of spooky. I mean, the hare krishnas gave me free lentil based food and I got a bit of a sing song out of their attempted conversion, much better value for money. Or not.
The easiest way to sleep at night is to carry on believing that I don't exist |
Edited by - starmekitten on 06/21/2005 11:17:18 |
|
|
|
Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 11:18:32
|
Yes Brian, I love a man who can say the consider themselves a feminist.
__________
Don't believe the hype. |
|
|
|
Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 11:19:41
|
quote:
Originally posted by floop
i personally have no use for religion. i think there are many positives that come with some belief systems: sense of community, teaching good values, basic common sense morality stuff.. but there are so many problems caused by religious conflits that it sometimes outweighs the good.
i think we'd benefit more from being concerned with how life is in the here and now, on the planet, than focusing on some idealized afterlife that isn't coming (in my opinion, of course).. with certain religions, it doesn't seem to matter that we're fucking up our world because it'll all be good in the afterlife. but for me, i think the only heaven and hell is here on earth in this life. we can make it better or we can make it worse
most religions just seem like a way for those in control to keep control.. and most people seem willing to sign up because they're afraid to accept the unknown
Yup, its not religion, its people who wreck it.
__________
Don't believe the hype. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
personal evolution
