| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
KimStanleyRobinson
* Dog in the Sand *
1972 Posts |
 Posted - 03/21/2005 : 14:41:58
|
Ok.
Very low budget project.
I AM going to use an ancient Tascam Porta 5 Ministudio.
Please do not suggest that I upgrade or suggest software or record straight to a PC.
I want to know what I should put between the 4-track and the SM57 or 58 mics I'll be using to improve the sound.
I may get some better mics, but most likely I'll be using a 58.
Preamp? |
|
|
Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2005 : 14:49:02
|
I always had good times with the Focusrite green or reds, the ones that look like termite mounds, but I'm not really up to spec these days.
 I'm like a lost snail in the night. |
 |
|
|
KimStanleyRobinson
* Dog in the Sand *
1972 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2005 : 14:57:47
|
Must I use a preamp?
Are there mics I can use that do not require a pre? |
|
|
|
Sir Rockabye
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1158 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2005 : 15:06:28
|
KSR, I know next to nothing about the ways in which music is recorded. What I can tell you is that my band's first couple of demo tracks were recorded just like yours, on a Tascam Portastudio, with SM57s. We just plugged the mics in and recorded right out of our amps. The sound quality was fine, at least for our needs. Wish I could be of some more assistance.
Are you honest when no one's looking? Can you summon honey from a telephone? They sat there with their hooks in the water and their mustaches caked with airplane glue. |
|
|
|
Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2005 : 15:11:17
|
A pre-amp is probably best in this situation - its always better to get a good sound going in than to try and fix it coming back out. The built in pre-amp in the Tascam will do the job of getting the signal in at a sufficient level, but the sound ain't going to be great. Something simple will do the trick - I assume you're going for a reasonably minimal sound, so that should be fine.
I'm like a lost snail in the night. |
|
|
|
Homers_pet_monkey
= Official forum monkey =
United Kingdom
17125 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2005 : 15:14:43
|
That's the way to do it Kim. Good to see someone keeping it old school.
Hansel and Gretel have formed a band, .....And You Will Know Us By The Trail Of Breadcrumbs!!!
|
|
|
|
PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2005 : 15:23:54
|
| you should probably upgrade to a better recorder. or you could try recording straight to the pc and using software like Cubase or whatever. |
|
|
|
Chris Knight
= Cult of Ray =
USA
899 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2005 : 16:59:33
|
quote:
Must I use a preamp?
Are there mics I can use that do not require a pre?
Microphones that do not require some sort of preamplification are almost universally worthless. Guitar amps, multi-effects pedals, DJ mixers, and stereo sets make good mic preamps for no-budget recordings. I'd recommend upgrading to a recorder that has at least one or two XLR inputs, though.
What instruments are you recording, BTW? |
Edited by - Chris Knight on 03/21/2005 17:01:29 |
|
|
|
Perk
- FB Fan -
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2005 : 00:00:34
|
"I want to know what I should put between the 4-track and the SM57 or 58 mics"
You need an inline transformer and adapter
XLR to 1/4"
The Porta 5 has no XLR inputs.
Don't sweat the petty things
and don't pet the sweaty things |
|
|
|
KimStanleyRobinson
* Dog in the Sand *
1972 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2005 : 07:28:25
|
quote:
Originally posted by PixieSteve
you should probably upgrade to a better recorder. or you could try recording straight to the pc and using software like Cubase or whatever.
Thanks steve.
This is, of course exactly the information I was fishing for.
So, needless to say, if you were waiting around with five bucks in your hand waiting to buy my upcoming brochure Understanding Poop, you can put that five bucks away, 'cause it ain't happenin.
|
|
|
|
KimStanleyRobinson
* Dog in the Sand *
1972 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2005 : 07:31:52
|
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Knight
quote:
Must I use a preamp?
Are there mics I can use that do not require a pre?
Microphones that do not require some sort of preamplification are almost universally worthless. Guitar amps, multi-effects pedals, DJ mixers, and stereo sets make good mic preamps for no-budget recordings. I'd recommend upgrading to a recorder that has at least one or two XLR inputs, though.
What instruments are you recording, BTW?
That all makes sense. Thanks.
I'll be recording mosly acoustic/appalachian instruments.
Upright bass, banjo, fiddle, guitar...maybe mandolin....and then also electric guitar, bass, acoustic drums...I have an old Korg DW6000 that may see some time too. Probably pump it through a blackface reissue Fender Deluxe and mic it.
So, needless to say, if you were waiting around with five bucks in your hand waiting to buy my upcoming brochure Understanding Poop, you can put that five bucks away, 'cause it ain't happenin.
|
|
|
|
Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2005 : 07:46:37
|
Gotta say, that sounds cool already.
There's so much that can go wrong with 4-track recording, but it's easy and a lot of fun. That said, I've vowed never to use a 424 again except for a really rough demo.
Incidentally, I think Steve was just messing with you.
 "Join the Cult of Frank / Seriously." |
|
|
|
The Calistanian
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1342 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2005 : 08:27:37
|
Good luck. Tascam 4-tracks are nice old school recording equipment.
Side point:
This is a must...make sure you get decent cassette tapes for this. This makes a huge difference. Make sure you get tapes with 30 minutes or less of play time on them. The tape is thicker.
You probably know this already though.
1. I am a fsh with no i's.
2. You must be wearing Zubaz, 'cause you're daring to be different.
3. I am a man with 3 fingers...but that doesn't count my index finger nor my thumb. |
|
|
|
hWolsky
= Cult of Ray =
France
696 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2005 : 08:27:56
|
ALL WAVE!!!
Repent... |
|
|
|
PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2005 : 11:23:44
|
quote:
Originally posted by KimStanleyRobinson
quote:
Originally posted by PixieSteve
you should probably upgrade to a better recorder. or you could try recording straight to the pc and using software like Cubase or whatever.
Thanks steve.
This is, of course exactly the information I was fishing for.
So, needless to say, if you were waiting around with five bucks in your hand waiting to buy my upcoming brochure Understanding Poop, you can put that five bucks away, 'cause it ain't happenin.
glad to be of service 
 I joined the Cult of Pi / Because it's cool |
|
|
|
Chris Knight
= Cult of Ray =
USA
899 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2005 : 15:22:56
|
quote:
Originally posted by KimStanleyRobinson
I'll be recording mosly acoustic/appalachian instruments.
Upright bass, banjo, fiddle, guitar...maybe mandolin....and then also electric guitar, bass, acoustic drums...I have an old Korg DW6000 that may see some time too. Probably pump it through a blackface reissue Fender Deluxe and mic it.
Recording such a wide variety of instruments with good results will be difficult to do without an actual mic preamp. A condenser mic may come in handy for the quieter acoustic instruments, though condensers require phantom power (make sure your preamp provides this).
To reiterate what Calistanian said, only use high-bias cassettes with a maximum of 30 minutes per side. Maxell XLIIs are great and not that hard to find.
Be sure to check out www.homerecording.com . |
|
|
|
ivandivel
= Cult of Ray =
394 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2005 : 00:05:31
|
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Knight
quote:
Originally posted by KimStanleyRobinson
I'll be recording mosly acoustic/appalachian instruments.
Upright bass, banjo, fiddle, guitar...maybe mandolin....and then also electric guitar, bass, acoustic drums...I have an old Korg DW6000 that may see some time too. Probably pump it through a blackface reissue Fender Deluxe and mic it.
Recording such a wide variety of instruments with good results will be difficult to do without an actual mic preamp. A condenser mic may come in handy for the quieter acoustic instruments, though condensers require phantom power (make sure your preamp provides this).
To reiterate what Calistanian said, only use high-bias cassettes with a maximum of 30 minutes per side. Maxell XLIIs are great and not that hard to find.
Be sure to check out www.homerecording.com .
Agree. It's probably out of your budget range, but I just bought this one: www.uaudio.com/products/analog/LA-610/index.html" target="_blank">http://www.uaudio.com/products/analog/LA-610/index.html . It's the price of a computer, but sounds fantastic.
I did 4-track recordings (with sm57-58 mics) for over 7 years, and released one album of such recordings before upgrading to pc and going to a "real" studio. the sound always sucked, but it had some kind of charm to it. But - if you can borrow a good mic or two, and a decent preamp the results should improve alot. |
|
|
|
billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Netherlands
6214 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2005 : 03:56:32
|
condenser mic. are the best to improve your sound when you want to keep the cost low
okay you need phantom power, but that's not that expensive
my superlux mic was only 25 dollars, but sounded great on vocals and acoustic guitar
(okay so it's broken after 1 year, not so good advice)
and I record on tascam mkII 414
not really that horrible as you would think
I use cool edit pro now
(old fashioned pc record programme)
 "I joined the cult of Jon Tiven/Bye!" |
|
|
|
Hatchetman
- FB Fan -
United Kingdom
234 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2005 : 05:15:29
|
Have you tried recording without a preamp? I don't know much about the Tascam in question, but perhaps you won't need one. As you're recording acoustic instruments, you may want to consider buying a CHEAP condenser mic such as the AKG C1000s (£100). It gets it's power from a standard 9v battery, so you won't need to buy an external phantom power supply. I've used one on acoustic guitar and vocals and I've had good results, far better than using a 58/57.
Ade
As the air conditioner hummed.... |
|
|
|
KimStanleyRobinson
* Dog in the Sand *
1972 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2005 : 13:46:42
|
I may be able to get my hands on a decent condenser for a while.
Audio Technica 4033 or something like it.
Methinks it may actually be a Tascam 424 i will be using CoF...was there something specific that made you swear it off?
So, needless to say, if you were waiting around with five bucks in your hand waiting to buy my upcoming brochure Understanding Poop, you can put that five bucks away, 'cause it ain't happenin.
|
Edited by - KimStanleyRobinson on 03/24/2005 14:46:13 |
|
|
|
Chris Knight
= Cult of Ray =
USA
899 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2005 : 16:51:29
|
Good for you. The TASCAM 424 is one of the best (if not the best) 4-track cassette recorders that money can buy. You should be alright without an external mic preamp.
I think CoF was trying to say that he swore off 4-tracks in general for anything besides rough demos. |
|
|
|
PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2005 : 17:10:43
|
| what would frank black think! |
|
|
|
jag
- FB Fan -
United Kingdom
44 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2005 : 17:17:33
|
Yo.
I use an old Tascam Porta 04(Is it not for sale?) for all recordings.
C60 tapes.
It's getting worn out now but still seems to do the biz.
I love it.
**********************
Wha'happened ? |
|
|
|
hammerhands
* Dog in the Sand *
Canada
1594 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2005 : 19:23:57
|
Of course I have opinions!
A friend of mine has been doing some recording on expensive, nice equipment and he builds his own preamps, but the microphones he chose cost either $100 or $150 (80 or 120 USD) in a package of three from Long and McQuade. I can't remember what they were but one was a condenser mic and it sounded excellent, it had a great proximity effect, very pretty.
I believe in tubes and you would need some preamp with phantom power for the condenser.
A number of years ago I did real cool things with an old Yamaha 4-track cassette using 57's and 58's. I think it worked well because I was super careful about using every bar on the meter (maximize dynamic range). This was easy with our distorted guitars.
We thought the way to go was to record the drums in stereo! Then we put down the bass and bounced them together. This was actually quite easy. 1 left drums; 2 right drums; 3 is bass. Play back and mix to taste. Shut off track 1, bounce 2 & 3 to track 4. You can play track 4 to one side and 1 & 3 to the other if you want to double check your mix. Turn on track 1, bounce 1 & 3 to track 2. Now 2 & 4 have stereo drums and bass down the centre.
Then we put in guitars, 1 or 2 recorded together. Once we did the same shtick and bounced it all to 2 tracks so we could record vocals on 2 tracks but the drums start to lose some clarity.
I'm a big fan of live recording now, because of FB and all those amazing albums of the 50's and 60's. Isolate and record! It can be done very well with bi-directional mics (like the nice condensers). Bi-directional microphones have very little response to the left and right which is why a director can give instructions sitting next to the mic but you can't hear him on film and also why old clickity movie cameras were set-up beside the microphones.
So, without a lot of effort you can do something like this: Setup one instrument beside the other and have the players face each-other.
|
:) <-
-> (:
|
If the arrows are the microphones, the right facing mic shouldn't pick-up the right facing musician if he is aligned with the up-down axis of the microphone, and vice-verse.
You can use a combination of uni-directional and bi-directional mics, and as much padding as possible, to well isolate three or four instruments.
I've got a Boss VF-1 that has a microphone modelling setting, change your SM-58 into a condenser (and get free Enron shares). I think it's a 2000hz mid-boost or something. It made a crappy recording sound merely not good for me once! Something like that should be cheap to rent.
Please see the links in this topic http://forum.frankblack.net/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10013
One more thing, something that isn't paid enough attention to, most importantly leave at least 50% of the mix for the vocals, they are what gives a recording life. |
Edited by - hammerhands on 03/24/2005 22:07:12 |
|
|
|
KimStanleyRobinson
* Dog in the Sand *
1972 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2005 : 09:25:28
|
Well, I won the damn thing.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7310250557
Probly a little more than market, but hey - now I own it now and thats that.
All this info has been good.
Thank you, hammerhands.
You're a guru, man.
Now begins the transformation of my bedroom into a makeshift studio.
First thing is to offload the ex's extra crap/boxes o'clothes i've been shelving for a year...then some furniture relocation...then drum kit and upright bass acquisition (i know where they are, just gotta go get em) and then start setting stuff up.
Its gonna be cool.
A studio/jam space in my house.
I haven't done this kinda shit since the early 90's.
Woohoo!
So, needless to say, if you were waiting around with five bucks in your hand waiting to buy my upcoming brochure Understanding Poop, you can put that five bucks away, 'cause it ain't happenin.
|
|
|
|
Homers_pet_monkey
= Official forum monkey =
United Kingdom
17125 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2005 : 10:19:56
|
Well done 74Transporter. Good to see you have 100% feedback. I may just do business with you one day.
I bet you can't wait to get started.
Hansel and Gretel have formed a band, .....And You Will Know Us By The Trail Of Breadcrumbs!!!
|
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
Proper 4-track recording
