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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
 Posted - 08/25/2005 : 14:42:38
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quote:
starmekitten Posted - 08/25/2005 : 14:29:21 because of course you can't have independent thought and be academic, why thats just crazy
I'm just going by my experience - I found when I was there I could spend ages writing a paper with my own ideas in it and get an average mark or else follow the formula by just including soundbites of the lecture notes, it would take half the time and invariably got me higher marks. I posted a while back about my first day of a philosophy degree where the introducing lecturer told us they weren't looking for original philosophy. Then there was the Barcelona economics professor who with me a couple of months ago drew a white circle on a piece of paper and said This represents orthodox thought - if I wander outside this area my students get confused (i.e. ask questions, hold up the lessondelivery) and my superiors do not like it. Then he drew a smaller black circle just outside the white one and said This represents unorthodox thought - there are a few professors like this in my faculty but their careers go nowhere. Students are graded according to their docile receptivity of these dogmatic facts culled from standardised textbooks and teachers are graded by the speed and thoroughness of the indoctrination. And you did post about the tunnelvisioned atmosphere in your place a while back.
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If I were a millionaire I'd buy every carthorse in Ireland and wait. The day is coming when a carthorse will be worth more than a Porsche. |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2005 : 14:59:04
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quote:
Originally posted by kathryn
The unfair advantage is the bedrock of capitalism, my pinko-commie friend.
Don't we want more for Sir Rock? Next, you'll be enrolling him in an MBA program! |
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2005 : 15:01:47
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Please excuse the quote but I feel it's worhtwhile. It's from a statement by Rockefeller Education Board, which funded the creation of a large amount of public schools:
"In our dreams...people yield themselves with perfect docility to our molding hands. The present educational conventions [intellectual and character education] fade from our minds, and unhampered by tradition we work our own good will upon a grateful and responsive folk. We shall not try to make these people or any of their children into philosophers or men of learning or men of science. We have not to raise up from among them authors, educators, poets or men of letters. We shall not search for embryo great artists, painters, musicians, nor lawyers, doctors, preachers, politicians, statesmen, of whom we have ample supply. The task we set before ourselves is very simple...we will organize children...and teach them to do in a perfect way the things their fathers and mothers are doing in an imperfect way."
That was in 1906. The year before, the future Dean of Education at Stanford, Elwood Cubberly, wrote in his dissertation for Columbia Teachers College that schools should be factories "in which raw products, children, are to be shaped and formed into finished products...manufactured like nails, and the specifications for manufacturing will come from government and industry."
Have you ever heard of Outcome-Based Education and Values Clarification, two doctrines widely implemented in the 60s after being put forward by BF Skinner in his book Walden Two? You won't learn about it in school.
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If I were a millionaire I'd buy every carthorse in Ireland and wait. The day is coming when a carthorse will be worth more than a Porsche. |
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2005 : 15:03:39
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin
quote:
Originally posted by kathryn
The unfair advantage is the bedrock of capitalism, my pinko-commie friend.
Don't we want more for Sir Rock? Next, you'll be enrolling him in an MBA program!
There is nothing wrong with an elitist education that creates a master of the universe.
It's every white American's birthright.
Sometimes, no matter how shitty things get, you have to just do a little dance. - Frank
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2005 : 15:25:56
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Whilst I could create another thread and happily argue the toss (haha toss) about this all day my own workload is slightly oppressive at the moment
AND
AAANNNDDD
My university is a pile of shit I will happily admit to that especially as they got the fucking deadline wrong for the dissertation, I've been unhappily editing this bastard thing all day because I decided I hated it, I have butchered it in my panic to a pile of absolute nonsense and I have just ***just*** checked the university intranet and it's not due till next fucking wednesday!
My university is a pile of shit but I love this deadline moving business.
When it works in my favour. |
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Cheeseman1000
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Iceland
8201 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2005 : 15:26:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Newo
Americans do have royalty - check out Burke's Peerage, the official genealogy website. Something like 43 of US presidents are blood descendants of Charlemagne and the race between Gore and Bush was notable for being the one with the biggest amount of aristocratic genes in a long time. Here's a Reuters newswire a month before the presidential selection:
LONDON (Reuters) - If royal genes have anything to do with electoral success, then Republican U.S. presidential candidate George W. Bush will be the next man in the White House, Britain's blue blood bible said Tuesday. Burke's Peerage, a revered guide to the breeding of the aristocracy, said both Bush and his rival Al Gore are of royal descent, but investigations deep into their heritage show Bush has far more noble and royal connections.
Bush is closely related to every European monarch on and off the throne -- including the King of Albania -- and has kinship with every member of Britain's royal family, the House of Windsor.
He is a 13th cousin of Britain's Queen Mother, and of her daughter Queen Elizabeth and is a 13th cousin once removed of the heir to the throne, Prince Charles.
Bush's family tree can be documented as far back as the early 15th century.
He has a direct descent from Henry III and from Henry VIII's sister Mary Tudor, who was also the wife of Louis XI of France. He is also descended from Charles II of England.
"WELL ENDOWED"
"It is now clear that Mr. Gore and Mr. Bush have an unusually large number of royal and noble descents," said Harold Brooks-Baker, publishing director of Burke's Peerage.
"In point of fact, never in the history of the United States have two presidential candidates been as well endowed with royal alliances."
Brooks-Baker said there had always been a significant "royalty factor" in those who aspired to the White House, with Presidents George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Franklin and Theodore Roosevelt and Ronald Reagan, among others, all boasting blue blood links.
Democrat candidate Gore, who is currently lagging Bush by one point in opinion polls ahead of U.S. elections in November, has a less illustrious gene pool.
Being a descendant of Edward I, he is also a cousin of former U.S. president Richard Nixon, who resigned from the White House in 1974 for his part in the Watergate scandal.
But Gore does have direct links to the holy Roman Empire.
He is a descendant of Roman Emperors Louis II, Charles II and Louis I and is therefore also a direct descendant of Charlemagne -- the eight-century Emperor.
The problem is, Gore's Charlemagne links also make him a cousin of George W. Bush.
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If I were a millionaire I'd buy every carthorse in Ireland and wait. The day is coming when a carthorse will be worth more than a Porsche.
Plus, you've got King Ralph.
How's that for a slice of fried gold? |
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2005 : 15:55:11
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quote:
starmekitten Posted - 08/25/2005 : 15:25:56 Whilst I could create another thread and happily argue the toss (haha toss) about this all day my own workload is slightly oppressive at the moment
Well of course deal with your oppressive workload before arguing with me whether state education is oppressive or not.  When I was in the halls of higher yearning it reminded me of those cult members who go through those embarrassing initiation rituals and the more embarrassing the ritual the more they had to tell themselves it was worth it afterwards.
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If I were a millionaire I'd buy every carthorse in Ireland and wait. The day is coming when a carthorse will be worth more than a Porsche. |
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Sir Rockabye
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1158 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2005 : 16:05:21
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Kathryn = Boooring
Floop = Mentor
Newo = Flattering
Darwin = Funny
You run all kinds of red lights except the ones on the street.
When you run out of exits you can always count sheep. |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2005 : 16:49:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Newo
Well of course deal with your oppressive workload before arguing with me whether state education is oppressive or not. When I was in the halls of higher yearning it reminded me of those cult members who go through those embarrassing initiation rituals and the more embarrassing the ritual the more they had to tell themselves it was worth it afterwards.
Well, that shuts down any debate. If one protests strongly, it only proves how bad the system is. Very tricky of you.
I hope we can all respect Sir Rock's choice of mentor and hold floop accountable for fulfilling his campaign promises. Wear a condom. |
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2005 : 17:42:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Newo
I don't say what I said to win or lose any debate because neither are important to me - if people look at something in a similar manner well fine but if not it's not the end of the world. What I was doing I was telling how I felt at the time, what I said in that quote was a connection I made during my time in state education: the longer I stayed there handing in papers that got higher marks the less original thought was put into them, the more I thought Hey I've put a lot of years into this I can't back out now. The ghastly humour of this system which only rewards mediocrity occurred to me one morning after I woke up on the bathroom floor of a bar in south Dublin with my final exams in a few hours. I sat the exam and fucked it up something grandiose, conventionally speaking, but it's hard to care when your own thoughts earn you lower grades. This is the only time I have returned to consciousness in a public bathroom with an increased sense of selfrespect.
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If I were a millionaire I'd buy every carthorse in Ireland and wait. The day is coming when a carthorse will be worth more than a Porsche. |
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2005 : 18:51:56
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I see it like this Owen.
It may be that generally my marks border around the mediocre and it may be that there are those on my course, I know who they are, who parrot what the text books tell them and achieve the higher grades. It may also be that these people care about their higher grades, oh and they do, where this is the main focus of their time at university. My grades are average, my papers lake longer, my exam answers shorter (the word is concise people) but I take the time to learn the things I'm being taught, I try my damndest to understand them not as isolated unit but in the grand scheme of things. With each assignment I have my focus on the grand scheme of things gets fuzzy as I work slowly, and it is a slow process, towards the specific goal but as soon as it's done things settle into their little slots. I know, as I knew as an undergraduate that it would not be those with the high marks who went on to futher their degree because they had no interest in the subject, the interest lay in the grades and if you asked them after an assignment was done to correlate it to another assignment they could quote the quotes at you but wouldn't fundamentally get it. Of all the people that did my undergraduate degree there are three of us who are carrying on with it and we didn't get firsts and we didn't come top of class but we came out with an idea for the subject that a lot of people didn't so we stuck with it. It's not what the university or the institution sets in front of you it's what you make of it. I've been out into the world of moneymaking and never have I felt so stupid to be frank. I never said my university was tunnel visioned, it's *shit* that is undeniable, I said I was tunnel visioned. I worried I had become focused on the one thing and let a lot pass me by but over recent months I've reassesed this and the problem isn't with the study because truth be told I love what I do as much as I may moan, I can't imagine doing anything else and wanting to do it as much, the problem was something else which has (thankfully) gone away now. My work load is opressive because I have six days left of this degree, no five now I think actually. So I didn't mean to be so flip there but this degree has cost a lot of money and a few huge sacrifices and I'm not about to mess it all up now to prove a point (as it stands I might have overdosed on caffeine today expecting not a lot of sleep and then discovered the change in deadline so can't sleep even though I bloody really want to). I may not come out of this with the best grades but I'll be happy knowing that for the large part I understand how these things work. In any given subject there's too much to learn in the three years university gives you, so they strip it down and pound it out and make sure you know the basics so when you leave you have a foundation on which to build your own thoughts and ideas, and maybe lay new foundations of your own. Your experience whilst not unique to you is not the only way it works. If it weren't stupidoclock and I hadn't just vomited (in bed as well, urgh) I would remember this better, but when I was a first year student we filed into a lecture theatre en mass and waited. After a while a woman came in with a big box, a bottle of vodka and a blender. She switched on the OHP plugged in the blender pulled out some washing up liquid and an onion. She chopped up the onion and shoved it in the blender. Gave it a whizz then added some washing up liquid, poured the lot through an old shirt into a beaker and then added some vodka. She shoved the beaker on the OHP and gave it a shake and white guck formed on the top, she pulled a pen out of her pocked and pulled some of the guck out and told us, this was DNA. The beaker got put aside and she started talking about nerve axons of giant squid. We were all a little confused but quite interested she'd got our interest good, like I say I don't remember the exact experiment right now but she talked about a technique to measure the nerve impulses as they travel along the axon, in real time. We're all very impressed but wondering what the hell she's going on about. She then tells us this procedure was designed by a second year undergraduate student and then everyone goes a little wide eyed. Because many people go to university expecting they will fall asleep in the lectures and bash out the essays and the exams, they don't generally expect they're going to have to be thinking. Then there are those who think they're going to change the world in a week when they're there but don't realise you can't build good houses without decent foundations. The best lecturers I ever had would give us the barest of facts about a subject and then ask us why? or how? or what did we think? someone would have a theory and the lecturer would patiently explain why that wouldn't work, then someone would say well if it doesn't do that then could it do this? or but if that doesn't work how can this function... The stupid students would then go harass the lecturer to fill in the details, the smarter ones (and I'm not saying the higher grade achievers) well we would go to the pub, argue about it over a pint or two and then sneakily look it up when we got home. The projects we did in the labs, each one is an extension of research as done by the supervisor, my supervisor did research on cannabis and chondrocytes (the only cell in cartilage) and found that cannabis did actually ease inflammation and disease progression in cartilage. So my project has been an extension of this, if it works in cartilage will it work in bone cells? because it's not been done there is no direct publication to copy, there is defined way of doing it, there's ideas around the subject and relating to it but nothing directly on it. So I've not been following a forumla or copying from textbooks and any results I got (or didn't thanks to the shitty cells) were unique, this isn't the only way education works. I hope one day (after the next, yes the next degree) to go on to teach or do research at university because I do believe in it, the system as it is. It's not perfect but it works for those who want it to. |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2005 : 20:29:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Rockabye
Kathryn = Boooring
Floop = Mentor
you made the right choice Sir Rock.
you may not get into college, but at least you have fun not getting there |
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Sir Rockabye
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1158 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2005 : 20:51:46
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College shmollege.
Actually, I had my first meeting with my college counsellor yesterday. She just made me feel worthless.
You run all kinds of red lights except the ones on the street.
When you run out of exits you can always count sheep. |
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2005 : 20:53:48
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Sir Rock, shouldn't you be falling alseep over your practice essays right about now?
It's almost midnight!
(which colleges are you thinking about?)
Sometimes, no matter how shitty things get, you have to just do a little dance. - Frank
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2005 : 20:56:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Rockabye
Actually, I had my first meeting with my college counsellor yesterday. She just made me feel worthless.
was she hot? |
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Sir Rockabye
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1158 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2005 : 21:00:33
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quote:
Originally posted by starmekitten
I see it like this Owen.
It may be that generally my marks border around the mediocre and it may be that there are those on my course, I know who they are, who parrot what the text books tell them and achieve the higher grades. It may also be that these people care about their higher grades, oh and they do, where this is the main focus of their time at university. My grades are average, my papers lake longer, my exam answers shorter (the word is concise people) but I take the time to learn the things I'm being taught, I try my damndest to understand them not as isolated unit but in the grand scheme of things. With each assignment I have my focus on the grand scheme of things gets fuzzy as I work slowly, and it is a slow process, towards the specific goal but as soon as it's done things settle into their little slots. I know, as I knew as an undergraduate that it would not be those with the high marks who went on to futher their degree because they had no interest in the subject, the interest lay in the grades and if you asked them after an assignment was done to correlate it to another assignment they could quote the quotes at you but wouldn't fundamentally get it.
As much as I agree with you Tre, I don't think the issue is as black and white. I do my best to, as you put it place things in a grander scheme as I learn about them. As much as that fascinates me, and as much as I wish I could forget the grades and just concentrate on recieving an education, sometimes its impossible to do so. The message that is taught to me at school isn't "learn as much as you can" or "enjoy what you learn", the message I recieve is "succeed, or else you're fucked". It might be the contrast between being an undergraduate, versus being a highschool student. I come from a very cut-throat competitive school. I really wish I had the discipline that you must have. Anyone can sit down and memorize facts, but not everyone has the patience or motivation to actually learn. I wish I had the tolerance to do so. Right now it seems that as college is being shoved down my throat, I don't have time to learn, just time to get high marks.
You run all kinds of red lights except the ones on the street.
When you run out of exits you can always count sheep. |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2005 : 00:32:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Newo
I don't say what I said to win or lose any debate because neither are important to me - if people look at something in a similar manner well fine but if not it's not the end of the world.
I was just joking.
I can honestly say that in my many years of college (5 years as an undergrad and 6 as a grad student) that only classes that I can remember simply reguritating facts in were intro bio, cultural anthropology, biochemistry, organic chemistry, and art history. All of my other classes required thinking. My best classes. The ones that required the most thinking were sociobiology (by far my best class, the instructors were world class researchers and set me on my my career path), a philosophy course on logic, a probability course in grad school, and numerous history classes. And, I don't remember a bunch of competitive bullshit where people are trying to out do each other, but then I wasn't a premed.
I loved college. Still do. |
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whoreatthedoor
> Teenager of the Year <
Spain
2873 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2005 : 00:43:29
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Oh, Owen! That's the story of my life, boy!
Philosophy, last year of high school, I jumped from an F for an A when I forgot about my own thoughts and began repeating what my textbook said.
El amor es la distancia más larga entre un punto y otro |
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2005 : 02:31:54
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quote:
starmekitten Posted - 08/25/2005 : 18:51:56
The projects we did in the labs, each one is an extension of research as done by the supervisor
And if you wish to do a project independent of the supervisors' research?
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If I were a millionaire I'd buy every carthorse in Ireland and wait. The day is coming when a carthorse will be worth more than a Porsche. |
Edited by - Newo on 08/26/2005 02:32:31 |
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whoreatthedoor
> Teenager of the Year <
Spain
2873 Posts |
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2005 : 03:47:31
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I find that Spanish schoolkids are the most overworked I've ever experienced - which doesn't really fit with the relaxed pace of most other things here. I ask some of them What are you reading at the moment? and they give me these looks like Are you fucking kidding? I taught in an academy last year (last time ever ever) and it was the same story: the sparky kids with a healthy disrespect for hierarchy are called the problem students and the highest grades go to the ones who regurgitate the most whole chunks of information. Some of these kids were completely unable to think for themselves in a classroom - I heard the girl who was the worst case of this say she loved to draw so I gave them all paper and I started to draw as well. She said What do I do with this? and I said Draw if you like, write if you like, it's blank paper do what you want and she said What do I draw? I said How about someone in the room and she did it but the way she did it ugh: quick, dutifully, it was artistic expression devoid of any sort of joy or life. This is a 15 yearold girl and I wish I could say she was a singular case, in a truly healthy system this would not happen.
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If I were a millionaire I'd buy every carthorse in Ireland and wait. The day is coming when a carthorse will be worth more than a Porsche. |
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whoreatthedoor
> Teenager of the Year <
Spain
2873 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2005 : 04:12:42
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It isn't, Owen.
I freaked out when I met my sister's roommate at university. Let's see, a 26 years old girl with the most phenomenal marks almost finishing her studies. She didn't have the most basic culture about non-academic stuff. She have never heard about Dylan! There were a lot of examples like that, but I only remember this one (enough). I was sadly disappointed.
El amor es la distancia más larga entre un punto y otro |
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2005 : 04:36:25
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There is no excuse for not having heard of Bob.
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If I were a millionaire I'd buy every carthorse in Ireland and wait. The day is coming when a carthorse will be worth more than a Porsche. |
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2005 : 06:13:47
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If I were a millionaire I'd buy every carthorse in Ireland and wait. The day is coming when a carthorse will be worth more than a Porsche. |
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2005 : 06:52:12
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I maybe didn't explain that bit so well, you choose subject areas, you find who does things similar to what you want to do and then you approach them about the projects on offer, if you have your own ideas about a project you talk about how feasible it is, we're kind of limited as far as resourses and time goes but if you have a feasible idea they let you roll with it. I ended up going with a project I didn't really want to do, it's immunobiology and I prefer molecular biology just because I know how to do it, but then I figured it wasn't going to hurt to learn these new things and it might prove handy, and it was a nice little project really.
Sir Rock, I don't really know how things work over there to be honest. Lots of emphasis is put on grades here, I wrote and deleted about before I went to university when I sat my A levels, I went to a good college to do them but wasn't the happiest of bunnys and ended up with very bad grades (DDEE for those who know what that means), I didn't think I'd get into university with those grades so I went out to work for a year, moved to Oxford and tried to put university out of my head and crack on. I was encouraged to apply through clearing to university and ended up on a course that I was vastly underqualified for by arguing with the head of school over the phone. It amuses me that I almost gave up on this because of some shitty grades. I hope it works out for you.
Also Owen, that story of the girl is a problem with her, I've met the type I know the type well. There's a girl on my course always gets high grades but when she writes a 3,000 word assignment she submits 5,000 words because she is incapable of seeing the difference between writing down the facts and using her head so she churns out everything she can find in the books about a subject and to talk to, thick as two short planks. She is incapable of independent thought, she's not there to learn and I doubt she's going to carry on with this when she's done, she wants the postgraduate degree and the certificate she doesn't want the understanding. |
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2005 : 08:35:57
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So if getting a high grade is no measure of intelligence why are you doing the exams?
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If I were a millionaire I'd buy every carthorse in Ireland and wait. The day is coming when a carthorse will be worth more than a Porsche. |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2005 : 08:37:15
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quote:
Originally posted by whoreatthedoor
I freaked out when I met my sister's roommate at university. Let's see, a 26 years old girl with the most phenomenal marks almost finishing her studies. She didn't have the most basic culture about non-academic stuff. She have never heard about Dylan! There were a lot of examples like that, but I only remember this one (enough). I was sadly disappointed.
but is she cute? |
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vilainde
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Niue
7443 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2005 : 08:47:47
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I'm on holidays right... NOW!
Denis
"We brush our teeth with tequila." - Guitar Wolf |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2005 : 08:53:34
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| where you at? |
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2005 : 08:59:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Newo
So if getting a high grade is no measure of intelligence why are you doing the exams?
Are you being particularly obtuse here Owen? There's a system in place and I have to work within the system, how I work within it is up to me I can learn by factoids or understanding. The exams are a measurement of knowledge, I sit them because I paid £4,000 to be here and I do want my certificate. My understanding is being tested in other ways, I chose to have my modules weighted on critical analysis rather than factoid learning so I do more reading and thinking than exam sitting. At this level it's pass or fail not grade this or grade that. When I'm done here I want to go do something else, I want to show the piece of paper that states I have the basic knowledge that the university has to give me, then it's up to me to show them I know what I'm doing. It's the way it works, and you mightn't like it and you can bash on and on about this but it works for some people and I'm more than happy with the way my time at university has gone so much so I want it to continue after this. |
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whoreatthedoor
> Teenager of the Year <
Spain
2873 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2005 : 09:32:27
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quote:
Originally posted by floop
but is she cute?
She was vegan and also member of the Opus Dei. Perhaps she wasn't the best example.
El amor es la distancia más larga entre un punto y otro |
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vilainde
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Niue
7443 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2005 : 09:36:55
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quote:
Originally posted by floop
where you at?
Uh... at home. But I'm going to Morroco next week.
Denis
"We brush our teeth with tequila." - Guitar Wolf |
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darwin
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
5454 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2005 : 09:38:04
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| Owen, how do you propose that scientists should learn their area of interest? Should Tre be doing her molecular work all on her own with complete independence and no equipment? I can understand thinking that someone interested in the humanities or social sciences can teach themselves by reading and by seeking out mentors, but that wouldn't work for the sciences that require a high amount of knowledge and facilities. And, no in her area Tre can't have complete independence because the work is expensive and someone has to have the equipment and knowledge to help get it done (Tre please correct me if I'm wrong). In my area (ecology and behavior) students can have a high level of independence. If they think they've found an interesting question they can sometimes study it with nothing more than some binoculars, paper, and pencils. But, that doesn't mean that they wouldn't benefit from having an advisor. Their question may have already been answered, it may not make much sense, or there may be some aspect of the problem that they haven't considered. Students often need some guidance. |
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2005 : 11:26:47
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I just thought that having scientific interests you guys could appreciate the puckish humour in a means of evaluation so imprecise that someone like the parrot-girl Tre mentioned can be regarded as having accomplished the same as Tre with all her hard work. One hand you got Tre who busts ass all year and loses lots of sleep to grasp the material she's given, the other you got a classmate who brainlessly regurgitates the prescribed material, knowing a lot but understanding nothing, and at the end of it both are rewarded with the same piece of paper - does this seem reasonable to you? "Hey kid you're either a genius or a moron but well done anyway!" I don't mean to sound obtuse Tre, I just don't think such a system deserves you.
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If I were a millionaire I'd buy every carthorse in Ireland and wait. The day is coming when a carthorse will be worth more than a Porsche. |
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2005 : 12:21:13
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At the end of all this though I'll have something I can actually use rather than just something pretty to frame, although I'll have that as well heh. The point of the system isn't to sit exams, we have to sit exams so the universities arse is covered when they turf us out, they have to prove they taught us something and gave us the basic knowledge. The proper test of how well you did at university comes after in the way you choose or fail to use your knowledge. I'm fairly confident now that I could go into a research lab and make a valid contribution, if I'd taken the factoid route I think I'd flounder at the interview stage and never even get through the door.
Darwin. spot on, I sneaked a peek at the costings sheet for my project, converted it to what that would be in shoes and thought my word that a lot of shoes! pretty shoes at that! there's all sorts of specialist equipment and I did need help, for a start I'd never cultured mammalian cells in my life before, stupid cells. It's a complicated business. |
Edited by - starmekitten on 08/26/2005 12:23:56 |
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