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frank black conspiracy
~ Abstract Brain ~
1126 Posts |
 Posted - 02/05/2005 : 06:29:34
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"At it's best, as on Solid Gold or All My Ghosts, with Charles and Lyle unleashing great scorching gales of distortion on their respective stereo channels, it's thrilling. But how about the moment in the latter song when an obvious two-or more-part vocal "pad" comes in behind Charles' lead vocal, and it's just poor Dave McCaffrey, all on his lonesome? would allowing him to have recorded a harmony part - or a few - necessarily have stripped the song of it's excitement?"
"In 'I Need Peace', Charles and Lyle briefly play a line in unison, and it sounds fab. What if, just to make it a bit beefier, they'd doubled it? Would the track have been stripped of all it's power?"
"the drum entrance on 'The Man Who Was Too Loud' is almost comically quiet, making the moment far, far less exciting than it ought to have been. If all the instruments had been recorded seperately, in the traditional way, Scott's entrance could have been brought up in the mix. Wouldn't that have made the track more, rather than less, effective?"
After reading Gigantic, i'm inspired and interested to hear what us fans think of Frank's chosen style of recording, that's if you have an opinion on it (Hwolsky, you around?).
Do you think the songs could have gained from an over-dub or two?
Or we just love them the way they are? |
Edited by - frank black conspiracy on 02/05/2005 06:37:16 |
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The Holiday Son
= Quote Accumulator =
France
2010 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2005 : 07:19:31
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I really think it doesn't matter how it's recorded.
A great song is a great song, no matter what.
And although I appreciate a nice mix, I totally understand Frank's choice: mixing and overdubbing IS a major pain in the ass. |
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frank black conspiracy
~ Abstract Brain ~
1126 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2005 : 07:41:44
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I've never really thought about the 2-track thing, other than I really like the idea of recording the band live, all playing together at the same time. It's so refreshing in a world full of layers of sound, to have an artist record it just how it is.
I know some think pistolero is a little murky, and i've never really been over excited by some of the backing vocals. I do wonder, now anyway, what some of my favourite songs would have sounded like if they had been recorded in a more traditional way. All just 'what ifs" really, that get us nowhere fast. |
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Jason
* Dog in the Sand *
1446 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2005 : 07:45:54
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Didn't the guy who wrote this book actually post here for a bit, and people just ended up giving him a hard time for doing research here rather than talking to Frank?
quote:
Originally posted by frank black conspiracy
Do you think the songs could have gained from an over-dub or two?
Frank has said that there are two edits on the first Catholics album and one edit on Pistolero. Dog in the Sand, as stated in the liner notes, is when they went 100% live on record.
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Edited by - Jason on 02/05/2005 07:48:59 |
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frank black conspiracy
~ Abstract Brain ~
1126 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2005 : 08:02:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Jason
Didn't the guy who wrote this book actually post here for a bit, and people just ended up giving him a hard time for doing research here rather than talking to Frank?
Isn't that how it works around here?
Franks girlfriend, Jon Tiven, Frank himself. No one can escape the wrath of the fb.net.
Wouldn't you like to hear the catholics work recorded like FB or TOTY?
(just a question, the live thing is a real treat) |
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OldManInaCoffeeCan
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1467 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2005 : 08:59:07
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Absolutely, no question, I prefer live-to-2-track.
I posted my preference last night on "What song are you listening to" with ALL MY GHOST. That song has all that I enjoy about live-to-2 track. 1st you have the sound of the band plugging in their instruments, and sound checking, and then, you have Frank fooling around with the Green Acres Theme, then some guitars jamming some quick bar chords and intros, and then they start into ALL MY GHOSTS. It's as if the band is playing in the garage, at the house down the street, and you and your friends go over Saturday afternoon and watch 'em play.
For me, it doesn't get much better than the real feel of live-to-2 track,...put the headphones on, close your eyes, and the band seems to be right in front of you.
Two other great live-to-2 track songs, and Frank has many more, are "Down In the Hole" and "Take What You Want", both from the "Everything Is New" single. With "Down In the Hole" you get another great intro, where the guitars are screwing around with funky licks,bar chords, and different intros, and then they all pull together and begin playing the song. Goodness Gracious, that is beautiful, I like to put that song on repeat over and over again.
Also, with "Take What You Want" right between the :55 and 1:00 into the song, when Frank is suppose to come in with "I'm on my way now," he's just a split second late, and it appears that he is in the middle of swallowing, or for some reason tries to sing it on time but something is in his mouth and he can't.
Live-to-2 track has such a rich, full, thick, juicy, and honest sound. It fits The Man perfectly. |
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NimrodsSon
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1938 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2005 : 09:07:45
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quote:
Originally posted by frank black conspiracy
Franks girlfriend, Jon Tiven, Frank himself. No one can escape the wrath of the fb.net.
When did Frank's girlfriend post here? Link please.
Anyways, I have no problem with them recording live; the best records ever were recorded partially, if not completely, live. I do believe, however, that after they record the main track live they should definitely allow for overdubs.
ˇViva los Católicos! http://adrianfoster.dmusic.com/ |
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VoVat
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
9168 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2005 : 09:30:06
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I don't know that I'm enough of an audiophile to really notice the minor things that the Gigantic author did. I'm amazed by how well the Catholics can make the two-track thing sound. I mean, listen to the recordings on Dog in the Sand. They're very full-sounding. On the other hand, they probably would have been good if they HADN'T been recorded that way, too.
"Reunion? Shit union!" |
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The Holiday Son
= Quote Accumulator =
France
2010 Posts |
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PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2005 : 06:36:18
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whoever said a good song is a good song no matter how it is recorded is WRONG.
also to say that he recorded live to track to avoid the hassle of mixing is a comlete misunderstanding, i think, of the effort put in when recording live to 2 track. you have put a lot of thought into setting it up before recording so everything sounds right in the mix - to me it would be less hassle to be able to mix after!
plus you can still record a band live and use more than 2 tracks. many bands do this. most of honeycomb was done like this, no? i think 'Hey' was recorded like this too (with a few overdubs). |
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frank black conspiracy
~ Abstract Brain ~
1126 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2005 : 07:08:26
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Like Vovat said, i'm not much of an audiophile either, but I can tell when I think somethings recorded live or highly polished and layered in the mix. i've always loved Franks recordings, and so enjoyed the 2 track recordings because a) it's a cool pet trick b) hardly any 'new' bands have the balls or knowledge to try this, and c) it's Frank's nod at the songs he likes from way back.
The only thing I can say i've noticed, thinking about it, was on 'I Switched You'. I'm not exactly sure how pistolero was recorded but I find sometimes the "you will find out that you miss my loving ways.." part a little messy at times. The instruments just seem like a wall of sound and it took me a while to distinguish what was played by all (maybe that's due to my lack of talent). And again, the Catholics backing vocals at times I find a little weak. Just a little. And only at times.
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VoVat
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
9168 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2005 : 14:35:05
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quote:
b) hardly any 'new' bands have the balls or knowledge to try this
And a lot of them apparently don't have the skill, either.
"Reunion? Shit union!" |
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The Holiday Son
= Quote Accumulator =
France
2010 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2005 : 16:18:03
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quote:
Originally posted by PixieSteve
whoever said a good song is a good song no matter how it is recorded is WRONG.
what I meant was : the quality of the song itself is way more important than the quality of the recording and/or the way the song is recorded.
I stand by that. |
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hWolsky
= Cult of Ray =
France
696 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2005 : 02:05:43
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What was great with the radical and "should have been subtitled Raw Power" first (actually second) Catholics album is that I used to think of various arrangements in a Teenager of the year 's style. I remember I played some keyboards on some songs pretending I'm Eric Drew Feldman (I used to sound more like John Cale '69-73' era I must admit) and it could have sounded like perfect Frank Blackesque anthems..
So I enjoyed SUGGESTION in the early Catholics albums, demos (for that is what is was all about in the beginning) of songs that Might have been Giants!
Anyway concerning production, Frank reached the top-art with the 2 first albums, wich are some of the very few finest of the 90's (see you in 25 years...)
He managed to sound like Pere Ubu Fontana Era should have sounded...
By the way, the only think I find WEAK (yes weak) are some druming parts and the way it sounds and the Catholics albums. Sorry for the fans of Scott (are there some around??) but to me this is THE major musical difference between Frank Black and the Pixies. Try to imagine David Lovering or Nick Vincent on songs like Solid Gold, or bad Harmony... a totally different perspective....
What do you think???
You'd better sign my Non-Alignement Pact |
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two reelers
* Dog in the Sand *
Austria
1036 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2005 : 02:35:32
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quote:
Originally posted by hWolsky
By the way, the only think I find WEAK (yes weak) are some druming parts and the way it sounds and the Catholics albums. Sorry for the fans of Scott (are there some around??) but to me this is THE major musical difference between Frank Black and the Pixies. Try to imagine David Lovering or Nick Vincent on songs like Solid Gold, or bad Harmony... a totally different perspective....
What do you think???
scott's drumming weak ? what about the song "cult of ray", for example (though david lovering would have been great there too) ?
and i think the whole drums on fb&tc are great. and also, he does a brilliant job on robert onion. but the latter catholics songs don't have a need for a lot of drumming (especially on BLD and SMYT).
but no matter, scott does a great job, also and especially live.
I joined the cult of Souled American / 'cause they are a damn' fine band |
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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Netherlands
6214 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2005 : 03:11:05
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quote:
Originally posted by PixieSteve
whoever said a good song is a good song no matter how it is recorded is WRONG.
a good song is a good song
there are two versions of
guided by voices' Game of Pricks
a clean version and a lo-fi version
both the version are great , cause the song is great
 "I joined the cult of Jon Tiven/Bye!" |
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hWolsky
= Cult of Ray =
France
696 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2005 : 03:42:26
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Think of Surfer Rosa...Think of the drum part of Freedom Rock in the Black session. That's what I call a drummer. It's not Bonham, but it's just enough. This live version is Fantastic and better than the original thanks to the dynamic of the drummer, and I think Scott Boutier does not have that.
I AM AFRAID I HAVE TO CLAIM THAT I AM THE FOUNDER AND FIRST MEMBER OF THE ANTI-SCOTT BOUTIER UNION FOR DYNAMIC CATHOLICS.
This man ain't aerodynamic... That's my motto.
Bow to me or 'Follow Me' (nice song by Amanda Lear, cleverly covered by Bertrand Burgalat and AS Dragon).
You'd better sign my Non-Alignement Pact |
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frank black conspiracy
~ Abstract Brain ~
1126 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2005 : 04:51:46
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quote:
Originally posted by hWolsky
the only thing I find WEAK (yes weak)... the Catholics albums.
The path following Frank hasn't been so smooth. the catholics stuff has tested me more than any other. I know it takes some listens to fully appreciate the sound, but as it gets more'country', the more I needed to listen.
I think it's all the instruments used, the unique and signature sounds they bring. I like to hear every instrument in the song, my brain breaks them into their own arrangements without me thinking. Sometimes with the catholics, there can be too much going on of the same sound, here's another slide guitar, or he's that same old introduction. It really does stand out when i play the Catholics on random. Maybe it's because i have so many tracks.
I think I prefer my bands to use every instrument as a major player in the song, just like the Pixies. Sometimes it seems the Cs are just the back up and rhythm section. Just time keepers. But the best damn metronome in the world I bet. So many catholic gigs i've seen where a certain song will have the audience turning around and chatting amongst themselves. Not exactly captivated (Not me, I hang on every note).
Only when i'm fully submerged in the album do I begin to see those little FB trademarks that make these songs so catchy and enjoyable to hear. A little riff here, or a chord progression there, and a lyric that's just so Frank. Every album, I've loved on such a scale. Watching Frank go from "TAAAAME!" to "Goodby Lorraine" has been both baffling and brilliant.
Scott who? |
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hWolsky
= Cult of Ray =
France
696 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2005 : 05:06:39
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PROPAGANDA, MISQUOTE!!!!!
Excuse me, mister Conspiracy, I NEVER SAID I FOUND THE CATHOLICS WEAK.
Scott BOUTIER's druming is.
When You Quote me, Quote me well.
You'd better sign my Non-Alignement Pact |
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PixieSteve
> Teenager of the Year <
Poland
4698 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2005 : 09:52:21
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fuck this, i've now written two replies to this thread which have been lost because i've been logged out, press post new reply and because i didn't put my details, lost the post.
 I joined the Cult of Pi / Because it's cool |
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NimrodsSon
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1938 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2005 : 10:18:19
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Hmm, I would have to agree that Scott's drumming with the Catholics is pretty weak for the most part, or not as much weak as I don't like his style. But, that being said, if you listen to his drumming with Miracle Legion and Polaris, it is pretty damn good. I'm not sure what exactly causes that difference. Maybe it's because he's more comfortable with the more poppy songs, which would explain why some of you like his drumming on the Cult of Ray.
ˇViva los Católicos! http://adrianfoster.dmusic.com/ |
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frank black conspiracy
~ Abstract Brain ~
1126 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2005 : 11:40:54
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quote:
Originally posted by hWolsky
PROPAGANDA, MISQUOTE!!!!!
Excuse me, mister Conspiracy, I NEVER SAID I FOUND THE CATHOLICS WEAK.
Scott BOUTIER's druming is.
When You Quote me, Quote me well.
You'd better sign my Non-Alignement Pact
I know.
Just checking you're around.
And I corrected a spelling mistake too.
"the only think I find WEAK (yes weak) are some druming parts and the way it sounds and the Catholics albums."
too many 'ands' confused me i think. |
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oddball
- FB Fan -
Germany
242 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2005 : 14:38:28
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| Scott Boutier is outstanding at pulling off subtleties and improvising. Black Rider, Bullet, Everything is New really seem to showcase his extreme talent in my opinion. I would take Boutier over Lovering anyday. When he and McCaffery are "on", they are second to none. I am sure Frank would wholeheartedly agree. |
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frank black conspiracy
~ Abstract Brain ~
1126 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2005 : 15:01:42
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He sure can play, 'bullet' was example enough. But sometimes I lose track of the drums in a song, there's so much going on.
They just disappear into the background. Wonder if that's due to the two-track recording.
And i'm sure Frank would agree too.
But he sure has been playing with a few awesome rhythm sections recently who'd give them a run for their money. |
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hWolsky
= Cult of Ray =
France
696 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2005 : 02:12:44
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Yes, my mistake, I so high sometimes, I spell wrong my thoughts... wright "and" in place of "on", and all that...
I apologyze to scott Boutier, which is a good drumer, better than I am a violonist or a Cook...
I love you all despite my hate for some diamonds' sides...
I love You FRANK!!!ly
You'd better sign my Non-Alignement Pact |
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frank black conspiracy
~ Abstract Brain ~
1126 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2005 : 06:18:05
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My mistake too, I read thoughts wrong.
'Gigantic' interview with Rich Gilbert
Are you happy with the direct-to-stereo approach, or do you wish you could, for instance, layer guitars in harmony now and again?
"We call it live-to-two-track. you've got to remember that, from the first Edison cylinder through the Early eighties, all music was recorded live, and some of it's pretty complex, like the Frank Sinatra/Nelson riddle recordings in the Fifties, which is easily some of the best music ever recorded. You may not agree with me about that, but that's your problem. Listen again. Anyway, most of the time, live-to-two-track is fun. it makes you a better musician because you have to play it right, but with feeling and spontaneity. There's a lot of bands and musicians that just wouldn't be able to pull it off. But we can.
The downside is sometimes the version with your best guitar solo, or the best drum fills or the best piano playing doesn't get used because there's something else that doesn't jibe with that take. And since it's being mixed as it's recorded, sometimes a nice detail can get somewhat obscured in the mix.
Again, i have other outlets for what I do, so I use multi-track recording in those situations. But you know what? it would be nice to do a mutil-track recording with the Catholics, just to see what comes out of it."
I wanna hear the nice details too. |
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two reelers
* Dog in the Sand *
Austria
1036 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2005 : 06:56:57
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quote:
Originally posted by frank black conspiracy
My mistake too, I read thoughts wrong.
'Gigantic' interview with Rich Gilbert
"...it makes you a better musician because you have to play it right, but with feeling and spontaneity. There's a lot of bands and musicians that just wouldn't be able to pull it off. But we can.
E-X-A-C-T-L-Y that was my thought when i saw them live in 2004. such a perfect playing, and still there is awful lot of passion and emotion and dynamics going on. i was literally blown away. i may be wrong, but i think the FB-solo-songs are more complex than the pixies-songs. i doubt that the pixies can "pull it off" like the catholics. (no pixies-bashing or pixies vs. catholics intended ! really just an opinion !)
I joined the cult of Souled American / 'cause they are a damn' fine band |
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frank black conspiracy
~ Abstract Brain ~
1126 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2005 : 07:30:33
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Yeah, despite what I may think about two-track - and I do love it - it would be one amazing experience to witness the band recording an album this way. Both in the studio, and as you say in concert, they are all such talented musicians to pull it off. And catholic songs aren't as straight forward, black and white, as the Cs records I agree.
Respect to the Catholics. |
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hWolsky
= Cult of Ray =
France
696 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2005 : 07:52:31
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When Frank will be loaded with Money, he will have to release DVD editions of his album$, shot live to 2 tracks.
That's a brilliant idea of mine, isn't it?
You'd better sign my Non-Alignement Pact |
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frank black conspiracy
~ Abstract Brain ~
1126 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2005 : 08:11:19
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A brillint idea, indeed.
But not yours.
Last year, a friend (and source) mailed me a live-to-two-track vid of the catholics performing some of SMYT at the mobile studio in L.A. But as I may be the only one to have seen it, we'll keep it between just me and you.
"shh!" |
Edited by - frank black conspiracy on 02/08/2005 08:13:12 |
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hWolsky
= Cult of Ray =
France
696 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2005 : 08:33:18
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Don't worry, the more I wright in this forum the more I feel people avoid topics when they see my name....
Paranoid?
Maybe...
But who cares, it's not my real name....
Duplicated?...
You'd better sign my Non-Alignement Pact |
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frank black conspiracy
~ Abstract Brain ~
1126 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2005 : 08:47:16
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No way! i'm sure no one avoids topics because of you, maybe because you don't have thousand posters participating, giving the thread some 'creditability'. and you should know by now, the GC is the place to be. But even there you may be overlooked or the butt of some sarcasm in jest. never personal. They just don't know you. And some of your threads requires thought on a much deeper level than just 'what you wearing'. Don't you know there are only actually a handful of FB fans here (i'm kidding, whoever takes offence). Think of this place more a chat room than a message board of some kind. Isn't that what it says in the Forum FAQ. Ooops...no. My bad.
If this is your catholic church, we'd struggle to find the choir. |
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hWolsky
= Cult of Ray =
France
696 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2005 : 08:54:20
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It's fun to jump from one topic to another, kinda 3 dimensions like.
Thanks, but as every day's the same, the sun goes down and I (have to) get home...
Cool, tomorrow is just another long Black Letter Day!!!!
You'd better sign my Non-Alignement Pact |
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frank black conspiracy
~ Abstract Brain ~
1126 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2005 : 09:01:38
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This whole place can be fun. Maybe one day we'll all be united like one big family.
Who knows what tomorrow may bring, maybe a red one for a change.
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Live to Two-Track
