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frank black conspiracy
~ Abstract Brain ~
1126 Posts |
 Posted - 02/05/2005 : 03:48:46
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Like i said, there are complementary words too, i haven't really given both sides to the story. I've just quoted what left me in disbelief (I love TOTY so to hear it knocked like this was interesting) and the stuff that you could call thought provoking. He goes into more detail about live to two track recording, dissecting the orange album song by song. And it raises few points of dicussion. I'd like to use the book and quotes as reference to threads, to inspire honest and detailed opinions about FB. one thing the book does is to challenge our very own thoughts on the music, and it is an interesting read, viewing it as a book written by a non believer in the black. There are a few questions in there i've asked myself, if i'm honest.
There are no axes to grind, just his take on what he was listening too. just another opinion.
I just think it's a shame, as a fan, to have a book in a world where's there's barely none, with such a negative vibe. |
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2005 : 20:18:43
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Oh my heavens! My housemate told me she'd seen it in the shops and asked if I wanted it, I said no because of the earlier dismissing of the book on here and boy am I glad I did now! This guy must have a serious chip on his shoulder, write a book about the pixies.. sell it to pixies/fb fans.. then slate what you're writing about! what a loop!
Do you think he's trying to be controversial or is he just a bit of a bitter arse?
[edit] those few quotes alone are enough to make me never want to read the book. Rip apart the music, it's the right of every person as a music fan to have their favourites and have those they don't like. Nobody likes a sycophant so to pull out a weak track and say it's a weak track is also fine, but to be so damned bitchy about it, to make personal slights fat (no pun intended) chance what the hell? Thats just plain fucking rude. It's unwarranted, unecessary and irrelevant. A few complementary bits don't make up for it as sure as two rights don't make a left.
booooo.
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Edited by - starmekitten on 02/05/2005 20:26:58 |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2005 : 23:15:41
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| I agree, and wish I hadn't ordered it. I contacted the vendor to cancel but they said it had already shipped. Hate to put money in that guy's pocket. |
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frank black conspiracy
~ Abstract Brain ~
1126 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2005 : 01:49:17
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quote:
Originally posted by starmekitten
Do you think he's trying to be controversial or is he just a bit of a bitter arse?
I don't think any of these. More just a book written by someone who knows virtually nothing about the Pixies or Frank Black. Tried listening to the songs and found nothing in them that we seem to find both enthralling and sublime.
It's all a question of taste. He's not the only one to think this as we all know.
But is the only one to put his thoughts down in print. |
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Homers_pet_monkey
= Official forum monkey =
United Kingdom
17125 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2005 : 05:10:27
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Pretty much every journalist that I have seen write about the Pixies since their return has mentioned Frank's weight, and that includes all the ones who have raved about them. I think that reflects badly on him as a person and on society as a whole, as much it does on him as a writer.
Love, love, my season |
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The Holiday Son
= Quote Accumulator =
France
2010 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2005 : 05:59:57
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| Let's make a collective vow not to buy this book. |
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Homers_pet_monkey
= Official forum monkey =
United Kingdom
17125 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2005 : 06:28:24
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I vow.
Love, love, my season |
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Jason
* Dog in the Sand *
1446 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2005 : 06:33:30
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I don't really care about his opinions on the songwriting, but the thing that made me shake my head most was the live recording comments.
"If Charles were a novelist, would he allow his publisher access only to his drafts on the assumption that later, improved drafts would lack spontaneity? If he were an actor..would he get his agent to stipulate contractually that the director not be allowed to use bits of different takes when assembling scenes in which Charles appears.
The impulse was noble but the actual idea not such a good one, not at all. in the end, it's yet another stupid pet trick."
If the guy thinks live-in-the-studio recording is such a bad thing, then he must have contempt for a lot of early rock n roll, blues, and jazz records (music that Frank likes, music that likely had a part in inspiring Frank to record live -- an "If it was good enough for those old guys, it's good enough for us" sort of attitude).
I've said this before, but when people talk about Frank and the Catholics' live recordings, I think it's often underestimated how much hard work goes into them, and the songs have only gotten more elaborately arranged with each release. It's not a lot of lo-fi punk rock banging around. Frank, the band, and his producers spent time getting things right.
This "writer's" further negative comments on live-to-2-track that Frank Black Conspiracy quotes on the General Frank Black board would probably make me WANT to hear the Catholics records if I hadn't heard them. "Why couldn't they have doubled the guitars here? Why couldn't they have overdubbed more harmony vocals here?" Maybe to some that description would turn them off, but to me that description makes the records sound unconventional. |
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frank black conspiracy
~ Abstract Brain ~
1126 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2005 : 07:26:55
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From an outsiders point of view, it must just seem like a little trick done for the artists own amusement, and not doing justice to the dynamics and sound quality more conventional recording techniques can bring. Me, i prefer the sound Pixies achieved on Surfer Rosa. Genius.
How about this for a quote:
"If you use genius to describe Charles bloody Thompson, what word is left to describe Smokey Robinson, Marvin Gaye, Stevie Wonder, Elvis Costello, Richard Thompson, and Ron Sexsmith?" |
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Ziggy
* Dog in the Sand *
United Kingdom
2463 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2005 : 13:49:13
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It's on the shelves in HMV, and there it will stay.
Virtually every photo in the book is annotated with some snide comment about the person's weight/appearance. A strange, sad book, packed with spite and a baffling disregard for the subject! |
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starmekitten
-= Forum Pistolera =-
United Kingdom
6370 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2005 : 14:03:06
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quote:
Originally posted by frank black conspiracy
quote:
Originally posted by starmekitten
Do you think he's trying to be controversial or is he just a bit of a bitter arse?
I don't think any of these. More just a book written by someone who knows virtually nothing about the Pixies or Frank Black. Tried listening to the songs and found nothing in them that we seem to find both enthralling and sublime.
It's all a question of taste. He's not the only one to think this as we all know.
But is the only one to put his thoughts down in print.
Which is almost ok if it were just that. To write a book on something you do not know or do not like seems to me a pointless exercise. From the little I have read about this book I'm guessing he is either jumping on the reunion bandwagon or a genuine fan who was disgruntled at the band not wanting anything to do with the book, as is their right, so got some petty payback.
How anyone can justify putting something out there to genuine fans of a band that they either know little about or care little for is ridiculous. Then to throw taunts and insults in there as well is plain out of order.
Like I said in my previous post, critique the music all you like, do it well rip it open and find faults explain why they are faults and give good justification for doing so. I don't think any pixies/fb fan would want to hear the hard-on fuelled ravings of a sycophant. Most of us have a good grasp of what music is, we know when it's done well and it's done less well, you can flick through the majority of the threads to find peoples takes, negative and positive, on the songs but never will you find "I don't like song X and here is my petty and bitchy reason for it" and this:
Teenager of the Year, his second solo album, is best left shrink wrapped, as it's downhill after you've been amused by the photo of our unrepentantly rotound hero..
is just plain off. Don't talk about the music if you're going to splatter it with -oh-so-funny- fat jokes.
And if it isn't bad enough to insult the people you are writing about, go insult the people you are selling to!
we acknowledge that your preternaturally devoted fans find your every last bit of, well, drivel inexpressibly glorious
marvelous!
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2005 : 14:25:42
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i haven't gotten the book yet. but on an entirely selfish note, can you tell me if i'm in the acknowledgements?
ist es möglich für ein quesadilla skrotum zu lecken? beim sprechen der quesadillas von LBF, ja. ja in der tatheheheheheheehehee! |
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Homers_pet_monkey
= Official forum monkey =
United Kingdom
17125 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2005 : 15:57:17
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Yep, it says thanks to 'berk'.
Love, love, my season |
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banned from china
- FB Fan -
United Kingdom
8 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2005 : 19:32:32
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| absolutely garage. avoid like the plague. i saw a huge poster ouside virgin. couldnt believe it! hardback and everything. very excited turned to very disgusted. tried to read it... slamed it down several times. just sold it on ebay. |
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frank black conspiracy
~ Abstract Brain ~
1126 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2005 : 04:24:09
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quote:
Originally posted by starmekitten
To write a book on something you do not know or do not like seems to me a pointless exercise.
You're so right.
I'd love to know who comissioned John Mendelssohn to write the book, the brief he was given and what exactly did they want the book to say.
If he wasn't really much of a fan, and needed to listen to the records we have for background research, why include criticism of the artist in the final print?
Is that what it was all about, "Listen to the songs of Frank and tell me what you here". Or just that they didn't have much to go on other than recycled words, so beef up the book with your own analysis of the music.
If it was just for the cash, then fair enough, we all got to earn a livin'. If this is John's writing style and this is what the book intended, then I hate the fact that this time round, the subject of the piece is both a band and artist I consider one of the best. |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2005 : 07:56:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Homers_pet_monkey
Yep, it says thanks to 'berk'.
Love, love, my season
i'm a star!
ist es möglich für ein quesadilla skrotum zu lecken? beim sprechen der quesadillas von LBF, ja. ja in der tatheheheheheheehehee! |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2005 : 08:43:13
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quote:
Originally posted by frank black conspiracy
quote:
Originally posted by starmekitten
Do you think he's trying to be controversial or is he just a bit of a bitter arse?
I don't think any of these. More just a book written by someone who knows virtually nothing about the Pixies or Frank Black. Tried listening to the songs and found nothing in them that we seem to find both enthralling and sublime.
It's all a question of taste. He's not the only one to think this as we all know.
But is the only one to put his thoughts down in print.
That's pretty much exactly how he described himself to me. He sent me an email in response to a post I'd made about writing a book slamming a band for money where he said he accepted the commission to write it and then listened/researched/etc. He didn't like it and that's what he wrote.
Even if I don't agree with him at all, if that's the case, fair enough, I suppose.
 "Join the Cult of Frank 2.0 / And you'll be enlightened (free for 1.x members)" |
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n/a
deleted
4109 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2005 : 08:51:12
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But what's the point of the book? If it's written by someone that didn't knew them and that doesn't like them also. I know that there's no need to be a fan, but at least to like their music...
So this is for when you're feeling happy again
And this is for when you're feeling sad
And this is for when you feel...
Something
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2005 : 09:10:32
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I'm not saying I would buy it, and I did question why they'd commission someone to write a book that hadn't heard them (it seems he has a bit of a rep for expressing hatred towards popular bands, including Led Zep back in the day - perhaps they were after a flame book?). In any case, I suppose it's as valid as anything to write a critical book, presuming that it is indeed critical, intelligently written, and isn't full of garbage like "Fat (no pun intended) Chance".
"Join the Cult of Frank 2.0 / And you'll be enlightened (free for 1.x members)" |
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Homers_pet_monkey
= Official forum monkey =
United Kingdom
17125 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2005 : 10:03:58
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I think the main problem here is the fact that he couldn't resist the overweight jibes. For this reason alone, his work should be dismissed.
Love, love, my season |
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frank black conspiracy
~ Abstract Brain ~
1126 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2005 : 11:27:59
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Yeah rita, I only buy biographies and such books because i'm a fan or interested in the subject. And so, there is no point in either buying the book or by logic, writing it.
quote:
Originally posted by floop
i haven't gotten the book yet. but on an entirely selfish note, can you tell me if i'm in the acknowledgements?
Sorry floop, missed that one.
Your thanked for your kind help in the preparation of the wee tome. (my mistake)
The forum too, "I urge Pixies and Frank Black fans to visit these excellant websites, which I plundered rapaciously over the course of my research: Jean-Michel Biel's and Christophe Gourraud's superb Alec Eiffel (aleceiffel.free.fr/), Frank Black Net (www.frankblack.net)"
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Edited by - frank black conspiracy on 02/07/2005 13:21:20 |
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Homers_pet_monkey
= Official forum monkey =
United Kingdom
17125 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2005 : 16:10:02
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One good thing to come out of it then.
Love, love, my season |
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Triakel
- FB Fan -
119 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2005 : 06:28:14
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quote:
Originally posted by frank black conspiracy
"If you use genius to describe Charles bloody Thompson, what word is left to describe Smokey Robinson, Marvin Gaye, Stevie Wonder, Elvis Costello, Richard Thompson, and Ron Sexsmith?"
What word would we use ... hmmm ... BORING? I like most of artists the author mentions in this quote, but they provide odd comparisons considering they are R&B, folk, and what ... adult contemporary artists?
The only artist with a career arc and artistic sensibilities remotely similar to Frank's is Elvis Costello. At least compare the Pixies to bands of their genre!
Truly, I can understand the author's frustration with bands that are overrated. But it's not the Pixies' fault that they've become indie icons, or that NME or whoever has an irrational, uncritical, sychophantic devotion the Pixies. Many in the Pixies cult, and certainly that same mag *hate* Frank Black's music -- in an equally irrational, wholly critical, borderline-personality kind of way. "Mommy good! Daddy bad!"
To me, Frank is a musical genius. But I don't consider that genius something to worship or envy, exalt or hate. I just really dig his shit. I want to pay money to hear him play. I can use my brain *and* shake my ass. Makes me feel good.
Why so petty, Mr. Mendelssohn? Were your musical dreams thwarted?
I'm reminded of a quote, from all things, an Oingo Boingo song:
"You never lived in the streets
Though you wish you had
Not enough talent to play a guitar
You failed as an artist
'Cause you lacked in the confidence
Now you're a critic and you're at the top
(The top of what?)
You're an impostor
You don't believe what you write"
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frank black conspiracy
~ Abstract Brain ~
1126 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2005 : 06:34:50
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Yeah, a few nice pats on the back but where else would you research fb other than here.
This site deserves a mention anytime a book is written on one Frank Black.
Wonder if this was Floops input:
"What's the first thing you do if you've gone solo, and want to make it as hard as possible for yourself to cash on on the reputation of the very successful band you've just broken up with a fax and a radio interview? If your charles Thompson, and seemingly have a compulsion for shooting yourself in the foot, you start calling yourself by a name your fans don't know. You mothball Black francis, that is, and adapt Frank black, a name better suited to the square-jawed fellow who supervises a crew of Latinos who remove asbestos from people's attics, belongs to two bowling leagues, and every night after work has a shot and a beer chaser."
Doubt it.
Maybe this...
"Frank Black & The Catholics, hereinafter The Orange Album...as fans would come to call it..."
Now i'm a little confused again.
Isn't self-titled FB the orange one and FB&TCs the yellow one? anyone?
I always went by the colour of the disc and/or front cover. |
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frank black conspiracy
~ Abstract Brain ~
1126 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2005 : 06:41:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Triakel
What word would we use ... hmmm ... BORING? I like most of artists the author mentions in this quote, but they provide odd comparisons considering they are R&B, folk, and what ... adult contemporary artists?
The only artist with a career arc and artistic sensibilities remotely similar to Frank's is Elvis Costello. At least compare the Pixies to bands of their genre!
Yeah, i'm not a fan of some of the other names mentioned, in fact people like Elvis (both of them) and Stevie Wonder I just don't have the time for. Can't be bothered to listen to them because the amount of times I've seen and heard their songs, they don't hit me where Frank's music does. They don't hit me at in the slightest other than, oh, i like that bit. Not good enough to me to warrant play. But now isn't that just my opinion? I should write a book. |
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Cult_Of_Frank
= Black Noise Maker =
Canada
11687 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2005 : 07:01:29
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quote:
Originally posted by frank black conspiracy
Yeah, a few nice pats on the back but where else would you research fb other than here.
This site deserves a mention anytime a book is written on one Frank Black.
Wonder if this was Floops input:
"What's the first thing you do if you've gone solo, and want to make it as hard as possible for yourself to cash on on the reputation of the very successful band you've just broken up with a fax and a radio interview? If your charles Thompson, and seemingly have a compulsion for shooting yourself in the foot, you start calling yourself by a name your fans don't know. You mothball Black francis, that is, and adapt Frank black, a name better suited to the square-jawed fellow who supervises a crew of Latinos who remove asbestos from people's attics, belongs to two bowling leagues, and every night after work has a shot and a beer chaser."
Doubt it.
Maybe this...
"Frank Black & The Catholics, hereinafter The Orange Album...as fans would come to call it..."
Now i'm a little confused again.
Isn't self-titled FB the orange one and FB&TCs the yellow one? anyone?
I always went by the colour of the disc and/or front cover.
Yeah, self-titled "Frank Black" is orange, FB&C's is brown. Also, does it really say "if your Charles Thompson"?
John and I have been talking/debating/discussing and he says that he wanted to write the book more from the view of the band of itself (semi-auto-biographical) as opposed to writing it this way and seems rather hurt/bitter that Ken turned on him and Chuck didn't meet him while he was in London. Which he referred to as another example of "shooting himself in the foot" since the book could've been much more pleasant for them and him (and us) if he'd been able to do that angle instead.
He also points out that his fictional character is a big fan of Pixies/FB and remains so throughout and says that he often felt he was exaggerating positives wherever he could find them in an effort to not be so negative.
Thought it might shed some light on some of this.
In any case, it's interesting to get to read some quotes here as I've not purchased it and don't foresee a purchase in the immediate future. :)
"Join the Cult of Frank 2.0 / And you'll be enlightened (free for 1.x members)" |
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frank black conspiracy
~ Abstract Brain ~
1126 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2005 : 07:15:50
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Cult, sorry, my spelling mistake..."If you're Charles Michael Kittridge Thompson IV" to be precise.
The fictional character is a bit weird. involves hitting this site for 12 hours one night, realising being obsessed with both the Pixies and Frank, and in turn seeing a shrink because of both the obsession and sexual fb fantasies. Hooking up with a crazed fan who spends the best part of his days and nights camped outside franks house waiting for a glimpse.
If you want a quote on anything, an album, a song, whatever, just let me know and i'll post it. Saves me boring you all by dropping in random pieces of dialogue.
And thanks for the colours. It all makes sense now. |
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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Netherlands
6214 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2005 : 08:30:41
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Richard Thompson?
funny, he's a brilliant guitar player
maybe a genius too
it's all a matter of opinion of course
but I think he's not more of a genius than Frank is
myself
I think only Brian Wilson is a genius
given the fact that I think a genius is also a man
who's a very weird and is also insane (maybe)
because his work sounds like math or science to me
also like clasical music
I'm refering to stuff like Pet Sounds/Smile, not the mike love lyrics ok
Btw, even the stupid fun-in-the-sun songs have some great melodies and music.
 "I joined the cult of Jon Tiven/Bye!" |
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frank black conspiracy
~ Abstract Brain ~
1126 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2005 : 09:15:06
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don't they say there's a thin line between 'genius' and 'madness'.
Brian Wilson too true a genius. I don't think anyone who knows anything could ever dispute that one. |
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jonathan
- FB Fan -
United Kingdom
114 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2005 : 14:31:28
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I bought the book - saw it in Virgin, and wondered *how bad can that be*. Didn't expect much...
Actually, it didn't contain too many factual inaccuracies, which is rare for a band biography, and the author's lack of sychophaticism was somewhat refreshing. Granted his bashing of Teenager is daft, but a lot of what he writes is pretty drôle.
The (Vicky's story) bits don't really work at all, but that said they're a good one in the eye for obsessive über-fans. Actually I thought, were one new to the Pixies and Frank, it was a rather good biography.
Music biographies are notoriously shit. Only Julian Cope's autobiography (and note, it's an autopiography), Head On, comes to mind that was anything but dire. So as it is, I felt Gigantic was alright.
Well that's my two cents.
____________________________________________________________________________
 Treat yourself - www.blackmarias.com - the best new band. |
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Jason
* Dog in the Sand *
1446 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2005 : 01:14:33
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I don't think Frank's a genius. I'm not sure if I'd call anyone a genius for making rock/pop music.
To me, genius is "invented the light bulb" or "created modern physics" or "can solve insanely complicated math equations in their head in only 8 seconds". To me, genius isn't "wrote 'Debaser'".
As for Mendellsohn's geniuses, they're all very talented and sometimes brilliant musicians (well, what little Ron Sexsmith I've heard sounded dull to me, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt), with Stevie Wonder probably being the most musically virtuostic of them. |
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geertos
- FB Fan -
Belgium
158 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2005 : 02:07:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Jason
As for Mendellsohn's geniuses, they're all very talented and sometimes brilliant musicians (well, what little Ron Sexsmith I've heard sounded dull to me, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt), with Stevie Wonder probably being the most musically virtuostic of them.
To be fair, I don't think Mendellsohn called anybody a genius, he just mentioned some artists he enjoys better than FB. If anything, he seemed to be mocking the popular abuse of the word genius for anybody and his dog.
It is nice, however, to finally see some respect for Stevie Wonder over here. The man's a... well, not a genius, but close. Just check out e.g. "Saturn", a throwaway song on Songs in the Key of Life. Brilliant. And it should appeal to any FB-fan, given its space-related title. |
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frank black conspiracy
~ Abstract Brain ~
1126 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2005 : 02:29:12
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I guess the word 'genius' is too easily thrown around, but when it refers to an exceptional intellectual or creative power, I don't think Frank can be left off the list. Maybe the word isn't as exclusive as we thought. Your examples are true genius, but I think this superlative can be spread across other fields and genres, especially music. Just measured in different extremes.
Someone who can write such songs and in such numbers, that's hard to do, and can't either be learnt or taught. You either have it, or you don't. I know I certainly haven't got it, and have been writing for years. Music too is invention. I agree with the light bulb, but can't agree about Frank. I do think Frank's a genius. |
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geertos
- FB Fan -
Belgium
158 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2005 : 02:49:06
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quote:
Originally posted by frank black conspiracy
Brian Wilson too true a genius. I don't think anyone who knows anything could ever dispute that one.
Well, when asked, Mr Wilson himself always replies he's not a genius but just a "hard working guy". Gotta love him. |
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frank black conspiracy
~ Abstract Brain ~
1126 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2005 : 04:53:39
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Hard-work does play a big part, I agree with that. Talent and luck too.
Like all inventors, they go through a stage of trial and error.
Forever modest to the end Mr. Wilson. Now if that's not a genius...whatever he thinks of himself. We know better. |
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Topic |
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Gigantic: The Story of Frank Black and the Pixies
