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Monsieur
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1688 Posts |
 Posted - 01/16/2005 : 10:18:41
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Because of the anniversary of the liberation of the concentration camps, there has been a lot of talk about them here in France.
My question is, do you think that what happened there can be compared to anything else? Some scholars, without denying what happened, tend to say that some genocides were comparable to this one (like the massive killings of Native Americans). Others say that making comparisons is negationism in disguise.
So what's your opinion about that?
I will show you fear in a handful of dust |
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2005 : 10:36:54
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A good question. So good that it's hard for me to answer. So I will quote
a far, far greater mind.
On the one-year anniversary of 9-11, I was lucky enough to hear Elie Wiesel speak. He warned not to compare atrocities and genocides. I am oversimplifying his point, I am afraid. But he said something along the lines of needing to respect the victims of each such act. He said that on the night of Sept. 11 a fellow survivor friend called him to express outrage that a big deal was being made of 3,000 deaths when "10,000 were killed some
nights at Auschwitz."
On my part, I find it amazing that people seem ignorant of many genocide-related facts. I have Armenian cousins, who repeatedly point
out the lack of awareness of that genocide. The same can be said, in my
experience with many Americas, regarding Pol Pot's victims. Lastly, I refuse to tour the pueblo whenever I am in Taos, N.M. I think it's depressing, not
just the actual genocide but its aftermath of rampant alcoholism throughout Native Americans. Also, I find the Holocaust-deniers more than scary.
Great question, Monsieur. I don't think I answered it, though.
 I still believe in the excellent joy of the Frank |
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Frog in the Sand
-+ Le premiere frog +-
France
2715 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2005 : 14:04:16
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| What we call 'death camps' or 'concentration camps' were actually - and literally - corpse factories, as many researchers have pointed out. What happened there has nothing, or almost nothing, to do with the genocides that have taken place before or since. |
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2005 : 18:26:56
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So are you saying that this was worse than and incomparable to
other acts of genocide?
That is an interesting, worthwhile point of view. As is Wiesel's.
I still believe in the excellent joy of the Frank |
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Superabounder
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1040 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2005 : 21:57:12
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I feel that the scale of the holocaust alone makes it incomparable to other events. So much machinery, planning, effort and compliance went into it that it seems on a level all its own. Still, I would have to agree that Wiesel is right, and the comparisons between events of such kind are pointless.
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Edited by - Superabounder on 01/16/2005 22:52:45 |
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2673 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2005 : 06:25:18
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I find the idea of killing one person just as repellent as killing many more. I also find Wiesel´s ideas of a hierarchy of suffering equally repellent, also that the tragedy of the Holocaust has been sickeningly manipulated to justify the criminal policies of the Israeli state. For anyone interested in the voice of a Jew speaking from his heart instead of his pocket:
'Because We Are Jews'
By Rabbi Mordechi Weberman
There are those who ask us why we march with the Palestinians. Why do we raise the Palestinian flag? Why do we support the Palestinian cause?
"You are Jews!" they tell us. "What are you doing?"
And our response, which I'd like to share with you this afternoon, is very simple.
IT IS PRECISELY BECAUSE WE ARE JEWS THAT WE MARCH WITH THE PALESTINIANS AND RAISE THEIR FLAG!
IT IS PRECISELY BECAUSE WE ARE JEWS THAT WE DEMAND THAT THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLES BE RETURNED TO THEIR HOMES AND PROPERTIES!
Yes, in our Torah we are commanded to be fair. We are called upon to pursue justice. And, what could be more unjust then the century old attempt of the Zionist movement to invade an other people's land, to drive them out and steal their property?
The early Zionists proclaimed that they were a people without a land going to a land without a people.
Innocent sounding words.
But utterly and totally untrue.
Palestine was a land with a people. A people that were developing a national consciousness.
We have no doubt that would Jewish refugees, have come to Palestine not with the intention of dominating, not with the intention of making a Jewish state, not with the intention of dispossessing, not with the intention of depriving the Palestinians of their basic rights, that they would have been welcomed by the Palestinians, with the same hospitality that Islamic peoples have shown Jews throughout history. And we would have lived together as Jews and Muslims lived before in Palestine in peace and harmony.
To our Islamic and Palestinian friends around the world, please hear our message --
There are Jews around the world who support your cause. And when we support your cause we do not mean some partition scheme proposed in 1947 by a UN that had no right to offer it.
When we say support your cause we do not mean the cut off and cut up pieces of the West Bank offered by Barak at Camp David together with justice for less than 10 % of the refugees.
We do not mean anything other than returning the entire land, including to Jerusalem to Palestinian sovereignty!
At that point justice demands that the Palestinian people should decide if and how many Jews should remain in the Land.
This is the only path to true reconciliation.
But we demand yet more. WE demand that in returning the land back to its rightful owners we have not yet done enough. There should be an apology to the Palestinian people which is clear and precise. Zionism did you wrong. Zionism stole your homes. Zionism stole your land.
By so proclaiming we proclaim before the world that we are the people of the Torah, that our faith demands that we be honest and fair and good and kind.
We have attended hundreds of pro Palestinian rallies over the years and everywhere we go the leaders and audience greet us with the warmth of Middle Eastern hospitality. What a lie it is to say that Palestinians in particular or Muslims in general hate Jews. You hate injustice. Not Jews.
Fear not my friends. Evil cannot long triumph. The Zionist nightmare is at its end. It is exhausted. Its latest brutalities are the death rattle of the terminally ill.
We will yet both live to see the day when Jew and Palestinian will embrace in peace under the Palestinian flag in Jerusalem.
And ultimately when mankind's Redeemer will come the sufferings of the present will long be forgotten in the blessings of the future.
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If there´s pole planted in your back then you´re a fixture. |
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Monsieur
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1688 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2005 : 06:58:49
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Your quote is interesting, Owen, but I wouldn't like this thread to become a thread about Israel and stuff. Let's imagine people who got deported were not Jews (which is partially true) or any other defined people.
I will show you fear in a handful of dust |
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2673 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2005 : 08:01:03
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I just felt it pertinent because these commemorations and the Dachau-meets-Disneyland efforts of the Simon Wiesenthal Centre seem to be more about blinding us to current suffering rather than paying tribute to previous suffering. But seeing as the camps were a for-everyone-but-Nazis endeavour, point taken.
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If there´s pole planted in your back then you´re a fixture. |
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Homers_pet_monkey
= Official forum monkey =
United Kingdom
17125 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2005 : 10:26:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Newo
I find the idea of killing one person just as repellent as killing many more.
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If there´s pole planted in your back then you´re a fixture.
This kind of sums up what I was going to say. I don't think there should be any comparisons made on such a topic. Let's just remember it as a truly horrific event.
My friend emailed me today to tell me that the woman who lives two doors down from him was doused in petrol and set alight in her home last night. Obviously, she burned alive. He got home from viewing houses and couldn't see his house for all the smoke. I find it hard to be more or less appaled at this really. That level of evil, I mean is there really any lower? Tough one to judge, and people will have their own opinions, but I am not sure it gets any more evil. It all just stays on the lowest level after that. Once you have made a considered decision to take someones life, you have commited the worst crime possible. I guess what I am saying is that it's pointless and slightly disrespectful to compare death. Families have to deal with their loss, they don't want people making graphs in their mind (not literally I know).
Sorry for the slight turn off topic there but I just wanted to give an opinion on Monsieur's question.
As for concentration camps, well I have been asked a couple of times recently if I would go to Auschwitz. I replied that yes I would, I am not sure why 'cos I usually like to avoid depressing things (I try to avoid much of the news) so as not to become more depressed myself. I think a part of it may be my Polish ancestry, I feel like I should go and pay my respects. Of course this is stupid really 'cos it is not just about the Poles that died, but when you hear your grandparents talk of the horrors that went on there, you feel like you should do more than just listen, that perhaps I should go and see where it happened for myself. So I guess I just feel like I should pay my respects anyway. I know I would get very upset, 'cos I have heard of the atmosphere surrounding the place, so it would be hard not to lose it, but I think my next visit to Poland will include a visit there.
http://www.thefutureheads.co.uk/ |
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2005 : 11:05:21
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I've been thinking about this topic quite a lot today and yesterday and
I realized that one reason it looms so large for me, at least, is that
it took place in Europe. I don't know if this betrays some pro-Western
prejudice on my part (am I surprised that Europeans would carry out
a genocide but not, say, Asians (Pol Pot et al)?). I will give this some more
thought. And I won't veer off topic, much as I would love to speak to Owen's points!
I still believe in the excellent joy of the Frank |
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Daisy Girl
~ Abstract Brain ~
Belize
5305 Posts |
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2005 : 11:44:03
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I am sorry about your grandfather, Daisy. I bet you wish
you could have known him.
Somewhat off topic: in college I had a professor, who was Jewish and
who, out of nowhere in the middle of a lecture about Hungary in
an Easter European Communism class, started in on a classmate of mine.
The first time she spoke in class her German accent was discernible and he asked her if she was, indeed, German. When she said yes, he proceeded to ask her whether she felt guilty that her family had been complicit in the Holocaust. She got up and left the lecture hall. It was bizarre. The subject matter of the class had nothing to do with Germany or Jews or the Holocaust. A few days later, she told me that she went to the prof's office and informed him that her grandfather had been murdered by the Gestapo for refusing to name names early on, in, I think, '39. My point in posting this is that this is a subject that brings up many emotions, all of them complicated.
I still believe in the excellent joy of the Frank |
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Frog in the Sand
-+ Le premiere frog +-
France
2715 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2005 : 12:37:26
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quote:
Originally posted by kathryn
So are you saying that this was worse than and incomparable to
other acts of genocide?
This was probably worse indeed, since, as you certainly know, the victims of the nazi camps weren't even considered humans. In fact their corpses weren't even considered corpses (btw, the mention of this word was strictly forbidden in the camps, as was the mention of the camps themselves in Germany).
And yes, I think the 'final solution' is absolutely incomparable to any other kind of mass killing we have learned about or witnessed. It's completely, radically different by nature.
Just my opinion, ma'am.
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Homers_pet_monkey
= Official forum monkey =
United Kingdom
17125 Posts |
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2005 : 15:12:31
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Monsieur, what are some of your thoughts on this subject and
good question?
I still believe in the excellent joy of the Frank |
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Daisy Girl
~ Abstract Brain ~
Belize
5305 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2005 : 19:40:32
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Thanks Kiki!  |
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2005 : 08:12:40
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No prob, DaisyG.
Waiting for Monsieur now. Tapping foot. Waiting, waiting.
I still believe in the excellent joy of the Frank |
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Monsieur
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1688 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2005 : 09:57:46
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First of all, I would like to react after what Owen said about the on topic/off topic issue. I don't want my remark to be understood as censorship of any kind - I merely pointed out the fact that he didn't answer my question. Some aspects of the Middle East crisis are the consequences of the existence of concentration camps, but I think that there is a much deeper and more universal impact of these on us as humans.
I didn't give my opinion because I don't really have a clear one, this is also the reason why I started this thread.
I will show you fear in a handful of dust |
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billgoodman
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Netherlands
6009 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2005 : 10:35:59
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I think you can't compare it really
just my 2 cents
I don't know more horrifying things than concentration camps
in general
 "I joined the cult of Jon Tiven/Bye!" |
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2005 : 11:26:20
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What stumps me is the continuation of anti-semitism
(Jews being the major target and victims of this horrifying
apparatus).
By the way, Monsieur, I for one did not understand any of your
remarks as censorship. In a serious discussion like this,
it's best to stay focused on the topic.
I still believe in the excellent joy of the Frank |
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2673 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2005 : 05:55:20
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Adnan, I´d been thinking about the on/offtopic a bit before this thread and didn´t feel I was being censored here at all, only that people have asked me to get back ontopic in a much more rude fashion elsewhere and that´s who I was thinking of. I don´t care what anyone asks me if they ask me pleasantly, which you did.
Re: comparing the Holocaust with other incidents, I don´t think killing a few million in camps over a few years is any more or less monstrous than killing 80,000 Japanese in a few seconds. I feel otherwise it´s a dangerous game, and anyone who asks us to say the Holocaust is incomparable is basically asking us to consider a group as being more important than an individual and could pave the way to humans being seen merely as checks and balances (well, more so).
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If there´s pole planted in your back then you´re a fixture. |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2005 : 08:27:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Newo
Re: comparing the Holocaust with other incidents, I don´t think killing a few million in camps over a few years is any more or less monstrous than killing 80,000 Japanese in a few seconds.
Owen, you don't seem to concern yourself much with reasons or justifications. It would seem that to you a death is a death, or that all killing is morally the same. To compare genocide to rational warfare is absurd. |
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2005 : 12:01:21
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Erebus, I thought that same thing until I met someone who was
walking to school that morning in Hiroshima. Just sayin'...
It's all complicated.
I still believe in the excellent joy of the Frank |
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Monsieur
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1688 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2005 : 13:26:36
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Erebus, could you define "rational"?
What is a rational warfare?
The most horrible thing about the Concentration Camps was their "rationality".
I will show you fear in a handful of dust |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2005 : 13:50:57
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I think the root of the word "rational" is "ratio". So, at least to me, the Concentration Camps as a response were all out of ratio or proportion with whatever was or could be taken as their cause or justification. Of course to the Nazi hierarchy, the response was proportionate, given what they saw as justified hatred/contempt. To most of the rest of the world, this was insane, or irrational. I think I understand your point of the camps as horribly rational as meaning they were efficient, and in that sense I guess they were internally, as mechanism or as “means to an end”, rationally organized.
“Rational warfare” would involve justified response, as in response to invasion or even threat. And I guess warfare as mechanism could be seen as in proportion, for example if the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki saved a million lives, both Allied and Japanese. I also think warfare as simple revenge could be rational, in this case given Japanese atrocities in East Asia, but I think the bombings were mostly pragmatic, though facilitated by hatred of the Japanese, perhaps even by racism.
I don’t think one can argue that the civilian victims were not justified, or rational, targets, given that virtually the entire populations of many nations on both sides were mobilized for war. For example, American factories would have been justifiable targets, if, that is, the cause of the Axis powers could itself be justified, which I don’t think was the case.
Thanks for the rational reply.
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2673 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2005 : 09:45:04
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Exactly Erebus, for me a death is a death and anything else is abstract arithmetic only toying with lives and families instead of say, finding out if one train leaves Seville at 10:30pm travelling at 80mph and another train leaves etc. It´s just the way I feel and I respect and quietly cheer your right to feel any way you want to about it. I´d also be interested to know how you feel about the second half of what I said up yonder.
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If there´s pole planted in your back then you´re a fixture. |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2005 : 10:24:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Newo
I´d also be interested to know how you feel about the second half of what I said up yonder.
Owen, I'm not clear on what second half you refer to. Thanks. |
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2673 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2005 : 10:27:42
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The part after the part you quoted me on is the one I meant. My time in the netcaf is up so computer is going to cut off, I´ll check in tomorrow again.
Have a nice Friday night,
Owen
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If there´s pole planted in your back then you´re a fixture. |
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2005 : 10:37:44
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Parts of Bush's speech yesterday (Thursday) echoed, to my ear at least,
the idea of "rational warfare." Or, to quote him, "unleashing freedom."
I still believe in the excellent joy of the Frank |
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2673 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2005 : 04:43:24
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Ah the good ol dogs of freedom, where would we be without them?
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If there´s pole planted in your back then you´re a fixture. |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2005 : 16:17:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Newo
Ah the good ol dogs of freedom, where would we be without them?
that's a good question |
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TRANSMARINE
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
2002 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2005 : 16:34:50
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Floop...ha ha ha! Always digging up the past!
I was alone...in my BIG BED
-bRIAN |
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2005 : 16:50:25
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Oh, I am a total nostalgia whore for this thread. I come back here time and time again when I need cheering up.
Sometimes, no matter how shitty things get, you have to just do a little dance. - Frank
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VoVat
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
USA
9168 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2005 : 11:55:58
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Yeah, this is one case where I can agree that the thread should have stayed buried.
I was all out of luck, like a duck that died. I was all out of juice, like a moose denied. |
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Frog in the Sand
-+ Le premiere frog +-
France
2715 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2005 : 13:23:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Frog in the Sand
What we call 'death camps' or 'concentration camps' were actually - and literally - corpse factories, as many researchers have pointed out. What happened there has nothing, or almost nothing, to do with the genocides that have taken place before or since.
Well said Frogger. For once I totally agree with you.
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When will Lyle Workman find Frank again? |
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Nazi Concentration Camps
