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Little Black Francis
> Teenager of the Year <
3648 Posts |
 Posted - 12/31/2004 : 09:49:51
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the US upped their aid from $35 to $350 million...
Floops quesedillas zijn te vergelijken met het likken van fatsige Albert's aars nadat hij een fles laxeermiddel heeft leeggedronken. |
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Superabounder
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1041 Posts |
Posted - 12/31/2004 : 10:23:29
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| Yeah the thought of the Starbucks executives sitting around a board room and getting excited by the opportunity of this angle is sickening. Still, business is all about win-win strategies, so at least they are giving something. On a diferent note, talk about a true "wave of mutilation". It is frightening how something so innocuous looking could be so deadly. I always thought of tsunamis as moving incredibly fast. The video I saw showed a fairly slow-moving wave with deceptive and relentless power. I would have never recognized the extent of the danger I don't imagine, thinking I could maintain my ability to swim through something like that. Not a chance with all the concrete debris, broken boards with nails, etc. |
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Daisy Girl
~ Abstract Brain ~
Belize
5305 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2005 : 12:46:27
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Well, as far as SB goes, I think outright donations are better, but in the end, it is money that still is raised for the cause.
LBF that is cool about the US, so now their contribution totals a day in a half in Iraq. Japan just raised their contribution to 500 million. I think really a more fair contribution for the US would be 1 to 2 billion. What the US needs to think of from a selfish standpoint is that the sooner the areas are recovered, the better for the US economy because of the products they will make and sell as part of the US economy. |
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Frog in the Sand
-+ Le premiere frog +-
France
2715 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2005 : 05:25:11
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Monsieur
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1688 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2005 : 07:19:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Daisy Girl
Well, as far as SB goes, I think outright donations are better, but in the end, it is money that still is raised for the cause.
LBF that is cool about the US, so now their contribution totals a day in a half in Iraq. Japan just raised their contribution to 500 million. I think really a more fair contribution for the US would be 1 to 2 billion. What the US needs to think of from a selfish standpoint is that the sooner the areas are recovered, the better for the US economy because of the products they will make and sell as part of the US economy.
No, because the USA will benefit from the recovery even if they don't make any contribution.
It's all about game theory, honey.
I will show you fear in a handful of dust |
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n/a
deleted
4894 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2005 : 07:36:03
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How very depressing
Frank Black ate my hamster |
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Daisy Girl
~ Abstract Brain ~
Belize
5305 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2005 : 10:36:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Monsieur
quote:
Originally posted by Daisy Girl
Well, as far as SB goes, I think outright donations are better, but in the end, it is money that still is raised for the cause.
LBF that is cool about the US, so now their contribution totals a day in a half in Iraq. Japan just raised their contribution to 500 million. I think really a more fair contribution for the US would be 1 to 2 billion. What the US needs to think of from a selfish standpoint is that the sooner the areas are recovered, the better for the US economy because of the products they will make and sell as part of the US economy.
No, because the USA will benefit from the recovery even if they don't make any contribution.
It's all about game theory, honey.
I will show you fear in a handful of dust
True, True, True. You make a very good point. Theoretically, if then this is percieved as a bidding war, like the Bush administration seems to view it, it is very valid. And yes, if the US contributed nothing and the other countries contributed at the same or higher levels in which are contributing, then yes the US would benefit. I would definately say a great deal of people would agree with you 100%.
But my humble opinion, this situation is more complex than what game theory could explain. All humanitarian concerns aside, I my thiking is that there is also a huge intangible economic gain created by the goodwill if the US can lead the nations in contributions to this effort. By being a first mover in offering up lots of aid, the US has more to gain from offering more aid upfront because inevitably, it will end up paying more down the down the road anyway.
Ok this is not how I personally feel, but one way the Bush Admin. could look at is is this is a chance to get a huge halo effect from the international community that would in turn create the goodwill the US so desperately needs given the Iraqi war. However, one could also argue that the Bush administration by dragging their feet during the first few days has dominished the goodwill it was capable of producing.
To your point though, I really see what you are saying. Also, I am guessing you are taking the NPV in to account by paying now vs. later-- which makes complete sense also. However, given the timing of the payouts being so close, not much can be gained by deffering a few months at most.
In my humble opinion, when the world's opinion of the US is at risk of plumeting even further and the US has an opportunity to lessen the stature of terrorists in some of these countries that is a worth this risk. But your suggestion of holding off, its more conservative and yes, from a game theroy perspective the US would have more to gain financially. However, the US will see less benefit from good will and to the other extreme helps run the slight risk that U.S. products will be boycotted by other nations.
In the end, I am guessing the net financial contribution would be approx the same, or at least with in a couple hundred million. Due to the array of variables here in this case, we will never know the true impact of waiting to see how everyhting plays out vs. poneying up more to the table up front. But I think the calculated risk of paying more upfront will result in greater benfits in terms reducing the terrorist threat and increasing the recovery.
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Monsieur
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1688 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2005 : 12:29:04
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Do you really think Bush wants to annihilate terrorists?
It is very sad to say this but people in western countries don't give a fuck about coloured people getting killed. In Rwanda, 600 000 people got killed and nobody gave a fuck.
The GDP of these countries represents peanuts compared to the American GDP. That is a much more accurate measure. Human lives? Noone gives a fuck about that.
I will show you fear in a handful of dust |
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Monsieur
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1688 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2005 : 12:33:42
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Here in France they are mainly concerned about the white tourists.
I will show you fear in a handful of dust |
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n/a
deleted
4894 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2005 : 12:39:40
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ditto uk
Frank Black ate my hamster |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2005 : 13:04:15
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I don't believe that Western countries only care about the white tourists at all. I think the media makes it seem that way, because they always cater to their impression of the lowest common denominator.
It's more beneficial to contribute what you can yourself than to sit and imagine that most everyone around you is heartless and inhuman. They might be, but there's nothing we can do about it except do what we can ourselves. I just don't think it does anyone any good to focus on something that 1)can't be proven and 2)can't be changed even if it's true. |
Edited by - apl4eris on 01/02/2005 13:17:11 |
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Monsieur
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1688 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2005 : 13:20:20
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I did send a check to the Red Cross here, apl. It's the best thing I can do.
I don't think that everyone is heartless and inhuman, and I certainly don't find it beneficial. Believe me, I've seen some touching individual examples of humanity and solidarity in my life. And I know some people who dedicated their lives to helping others.
But the people who rule our respective countries don't think that way. The Starbucks example illustrates very well this attitude.
I will show you fear in a handful of dust |
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n/a
deleted
4894 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2005 : 13:27:02
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Unfortunately the media gives us the only real idea of the real time impact of this disaster, and it's not giving the best impression.
One piece I saw over and over again on the news ran like this:
Woman and husband get out of car, remove suitcase from car and open the door to their typical boxy three bedroomed semi huffing and puffing saying things like "oh dear" and "oh we're back now then". Cut to the couple on their nice cream sofa in their nice cream living room being interviewed about what happened when they were on holiday (I think it was in Thailand) Their account of the tsunami started on the sun loungers when someone noticed a wave coming that was bigger than normal. Everyone rushed into the beach front hotel complex, where there was a restaurant with no windows but a three foot wall. Our couple say how they thought they'd be safe behing their three foot wall but the water seeped over the edges and flooded the place. Oh it was terrrible they say, it was awful. Cut to home camcorder footage of the chairs and sun loungers floating past the restaurant wall our woman clasps her mouth and says it was the most frightening thing ever and she'll never go on holiday to where ever it was again.
Only in the last couple of days have I seen any footage really relating to the people who have lost homes and entire familys.
Thinking the worst of the way various people/media organisations/countries have responded is not mutually exclusive of making contributions. I'm trying to do all I can do, even though all I can do is very little in the grand scheme of things.
It just makes me very sad
Frank Black ate my hamster |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2005 : 13:30:43
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That wasn't meant personally, Monsieur, just to be clear.
I'm not sure that we should look at Corporations like Starfucks as our gauge for humanitarian motives, but then again, there really are no more "Countries" per se, just mainly major conglomerates that keep the world going while their host countries pay protection money.
I see your point, definitely, but I'm just stating the need to act and think as individuals. Our countries haven't truly represented honest concern for humanity since the dawn of "civilization", as far as I can tell. |
Edited by - apl4eris on 01/02/2005 13:31:19 |
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apl4eris
~ Abstract Brain ~
USA
4800 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2005 : 13:33:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Tre
Unfortunately the media gives us the only real idea of the real time impact of this disaster, and it's not giving the best impression.
One piece I saw over and over again on the news ran like this:
Woman and husband get out of car, remove suitcase from car and open the door to their typical boxy three bedroomed semi huffing and puffing saying things like "oh dear" and "oh we're back now then". Cut to the couple on their nice cream sofa in their nice cream living room being interviewed
That is horrible.
I'm at a point now where I don't watch the news. I can't afford the cynicism and sense of hopelessness anymore, especially when it isn't really based on reality. It really wears me down. |
Edited by - apl4eris on 01/02/2005 13:35:18 |
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Monsieur
* Dog in the Sand *
France
1688 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2005 : 13:39:19
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Yeah, me too. I spent the Christmas holidays at my parents' home, watching the Powerpuff girls with a horrible 'flu.
I will show you fear in a handful of dust |
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Daisy Girl
~ Abstract Brain ~
Belize
5305 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2005 : 14:39:05
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Monsieur,
I hope you are feeling better. It's never fun to sick, especially on the holidays.
Just wanted to say that I coudn't agree with you more. Honestly, I can't speak for the European media, but unfortunately, it is unlikely the stories you allude to will recieve the coverage that is warranted on a humanitarian level.
In general, the media in the US doesn't cover stories such as those effecting other countires, especially ethnic genocide (including the AIDS epidemic) involving people of Asian, African, Latin American or Native American ancestry. This is mostly because the American people don't tend to view or buy media that covers such events. However, I do think this is part of a vicious cycle in that the US media tends to avoid covering these events less that in general, the average American is unaware of these events because of lack of coverage.
I think another part is it is very dificult to cover and reports events in Africa, lets say such as ethnic genocide located in remote that are expensive to cover. Coupled with the fact there isn't as much as a market for international news here in the US-- unfortunately such coverage is unprofitable.
I am not saying this is the way it should be, but just how the journalistic system works. It is also a significant factor why I left the news profession.
Anyway, please feel better!
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2005 : 15:56:38
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I hear ya. I once went without reading the newspaper for about a year, just to see if I'd be that much less stressed out, I was. But on the other side of the coin I have friends who don't read the paper or watch the news or anything and trust me its not good.
As for Starbucks, I'm not sure if it'd help or if you'd receive an answer but you could email them here;
http://www.starbucks.com/customer/contact_forms.asp?nav=3f
__________
Godfather of nothing, ancesters of none.
Black glasses and feedback took my sense of fun.
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Stuart
- The Clopser -
China
2291 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2005 : 16:40:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Tre
ditto uk
Frank Black ate my hamster
Unfortunately I'd have to agree with you.... its a fucking disgrace. In fact in the past few days a few of the more decent papers have written articles claiming that there is a difference in the way that the wealthy foreigners are getting treated in the tsunami hit areas. In short foreigners are getting preferential treatment, whereas the locals (many of whom have lost entire families and seen their means of earning a living destroyed) are being made to wait. There is no excuse for this behavior, the Thai government needs to reassess its actions and understand that they will not score points with the international community by favoring the foreigners. Help should be going out to those who need it most, not to the people who have the most money.
This is a high class bureau de change, not some Punch & Judy show on the seafront at Margate! |
Edited by - Stuart on 01/02/2005 16:41:31 |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2005 : 21:09:05
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isn't the important thing that they get the aid?
ist es möglich für ein quesadilla skrotum zu lecken? beim sprechen der quesadillas von LBF, ja. ja in der tatheheheheheheehehee! |
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ivandivel
= Cult of Ray =
394 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2005 : 00:02:53
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quote:
Originally posted by floop
isn't the important thing that they get the aid?
ist es möglich für ein quesadilla skrotum zu lecken? beim sprechen der quesadillas von LBF, ja. ja in der tatheheheheheheehehee!
The answer is yes. |
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Stuart
- The Clopser -
China
2291 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2005 : 03:57:19
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Its important that the people who need it most get the aid sooner.... this is not happening and in areas people are getting it based on the fact that they are foreign and wealthier. Surely you can see that this is wrong?
This is a high class bureau de change, not some Punch & Judy show on the seafront at Margate! |
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bumblebeeboy2
> Teenager of the Year <
United Kingdom
2638 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2005 : 04:36:43
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quote:
Originally posted by apl4eris
I don't believe that Western countries only care about the white tourists at all. I think the media makes it seem that way, because they always cater to their impression of the lowest common denominator.
spot on. our countries wouldn't be giving so much and people wouldn't be willing to do so much if we did only care about the 'white tourists'... at the weekend there was the story of the brave swede, who ran towards the wave to help get her kids out of harms way. yeah, brave and yeah they all survived. but compare that story to the hundreds or thousands of stories of the people who actually live there, who saved people but died themselves, or only managed to save one kid and the rest (wive included) all died etc... etc... then you're really not scraping the surface. i suppose the locals didn't have a camera handy at the time... that or they had other priorities...
The Monkey Helper has arrived http://www.monkeyhelper.co.uk (that is my band)
or to go straight to the music downloads http://www.soundclick.com/bands/3/monkeyhelpermusic.htm |
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Newo
~ Abstract Brain ~
Spain
2674 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2005 : 05:53:35
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quote:
Erebus
> Teenager of the Year <
USA
735 Posts
Posted - 12/30/2004 : 13:54:29
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bankrolling the defense of the free world
In a truly free society there would be no need to say we were free, it would be implicit. Tell exactly what you´re not...
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Democracy is the unwiped ass of a devilish con game. |
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2005 : 08:54:14
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Monday, January 03, 2005
http://diplomadic.blogspot.com/2005/01/almost-funnny.html
almost fUNnny . . .
Day 9 of the tsunami crisis.
I know I had promised to lay off the UN for a bit . . . but I can't. As one reader commented on a previous Diplomad posting on the UN, "it's like watching a train wreck" -- you know it's horrible, but you've just got to look at it.
In this part of the tsunami-wrecked Far Abroad, the UN is still nowhere to be seen where it counts, i.e., feeding and helping victims. The relief effort continues to be a US-Australia effort, with Singapore now in and coordinating closely with the US and Australia. Other countries are also signing up to be part of the US-Australia effort. Nobody wants to be "coordinated" by the UN. The local UN reps are getting desperate. They're calling for yet another meeting this afternoon; they've flown in more UN big shots to lecture us all on "coordination" and the need to work together, i.e., let the UN take credit. With Kofi about to arrive for a big conference, the UNocrats are scrambling to show something, anything as a UN accomplishment. Don't be surprised if they claim that the USS Abraham Lincoln is under UN control and that President Lincoln was a strong supporter of the UN.
Maybe watching the UN flounder is not like watching a train wreck; perhaps it's more akin to watching an Ed Wood movie or reading Maureen Dowd or Margo Kingston -- so horrible, so pathetic, that it transforms into a thing of perverse beauty. The only problem, of course, is that real people are dying.
I hope soon to return to my habitual corner of the Far Abroad . . . far, far away from the UN.
UPDATE: More on "The UNcredibles": WFP (World Food Program) has "arrived" in the capital with an "assessment and coordination team." The following is no joke; no Diplomad attempt to be funny or clever: The team has spent the day and will likely spend a few more setting up their "coordination and opcenter" at a local five-star hotel. And their number one concern, even before phones, fax and copy machines? Arranging for the hotel to provide 24hr catering service. USAID folks already are cracking jokes about "The UN Sheraton." Meanwhile, our military and civilians, working with the super Aussies, continue to keep the C-130 air bridge of supplies flowing and the choppers flying, and keep on saving lives -- and without 24hr catering services from any five-star hotel . . . . The contrast grows more stark every minute.
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KimStanleyRobinson
* Dog in the Sand *
1972 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2005 : 09:02:05
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| The person who wrote the preceeding article is a sphinctorous dolt. |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2005 : 09:27:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Stuart
Its important that the people who need it most get the aid sooner.... this is not happening and in areas people are getting it based on the fact that they are foreign and wealthier. Surely you can see that this is wrong?
This is a high class bureau de change, not some Punch & Judy show on the seafront at Margate!
i see that as wrong, yes. i was referring to the game theory comments.
i just think it's silly that, first people criticize the US for being "stingy" and then when they give more money they're criticized for being selfish.
my point is that, despite what selifish intentions whichever doner may or may not have, the most important thing is that they get help, which is happening
ist es möglich für ein quesadilla skrotum zu lecken? beim sprechen der quesadillas von LBF, ja. ja in der tatheheheheheheehehee! |
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ivandivel
= Cult of Ray =
394 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2005 : 10:18:49
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1) Right now, the fact that money and help is given is far more important than why it is given. Whatever works, it's fine by me. If the USA makes money on it in the long run - fine, I really don't care (as long as they don't claim it as evidence for their direct link to God). If nations/people give money because they see whites suffering - fine. Right now, that benefits the poor.
2) From what I've read, which may or may not be correct - Thailand (where there were a whole lot of pink people) made a huge effort to take care of the tourists. This makes sense since tourism is a major industry in this country, and they need food on the table after the FBNet and others completely forget about the catastrophy. Maybe it wasn't fair, but I'm not so sure it was done at the expense of locals.
3) The UN will always have problems running smooth operations all the time important nations continue to work against it, and who can run a smooth operation when the nation under God and Lily's command wants to run the show itself? Your post was a joke Erebus, but it wasn't funny.
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Erebus
* Dog in the Sand *
USA
1834 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2005 : 11:16:10
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quote:
Originally posted by ivandivel
3) The UN will always have problems running smooth operations all the time important nations continue to work against it, and who can run a smooth operation when the nation under God and Lily's command wants to run the show itself? Your post was a joke Erebus, but it wasn't funny.
Let us hope that important nations continue to work against an organization that pretends principled opposition to a war that would end obscene kickback profits to that organization's power brokers. The US doesn't WANT to run the show, but if we waited for the UN there would be a pittance of aid for weeks. Please do continue to defend the UN. That'll really help your credibility. |
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n/a
deleted
4894 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2005 : 12:03:01
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What about if you worked in union with the UN to smooth out the creases instead of kicking out every time things aren't going the way you like them, you know, making sense of the united bit?
oh, and...
quote:
Originally posted by Erebus
This is a major disaster but so many can't wait to reduce it to morally microscopic political gain.
*cough*
Frank Black ate my hamster |
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offerw
* Dog in the Sand *
South Africa
1264 Posts |
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floop
= Wannabe Volunteer =
Mexico
15297 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2005 : 10:02:58
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cheerful
ist es möglich für ein quesadilla skrotum zu lecken? beim sprechen der quesadillas von LBF, ja. ja in der tatheheheheheheehehee! |
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2005 : 10:25:02
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I heard that this is where terrorist cells like to pick up new recruits.
__________
Godfather of nothing, ancesters of none.
Black glasses and feedback took my sense of fun.
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kathryn
~ Selkie Bride ~
Belgium
15320 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2005 : 12:11:15
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This is the first time in a long time where the thing that's bumming
me out in the news (the tsunami itself) wasn't caused by my government.
 I still believe in the excellent joy of the Frank |
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Carolynanna
>> Denizen of the Citizens Band <<
Canada
6556 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2005 : 14:39:32
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Well useless as expected...I emailed Starbucks to ask why they base their level of contribution on the sale of coffee beans (among other things) and got back this generic letter which really doesn't answer my questions at all;
"Dear Ms. O,
Thank you for being loyal customer of Starbucks. We appreciate your support all these years.
We are deeply saddened by the tremendous loss of life and devastation in the natural disaster in South and Southeast Asia, and we extend our condolences to the bereaved families and many others impacted by the tsunami.
Starbucks is taking a long-term, holistic approach to support the immediate relief and future rebuilding efforts in the affected areas by mobilizing all of its resources.
In addition to the Company's initial cash contribution of US$100,000, Company-operated domestic and international stores will donate $2 for every pound (and $1 for every half pound) of our Sumatran coffees sold in the month of January 2005. Further, many of our international business partners are contributing cash and raising funds to support local relief efforts.
Also, Starbucks Coffee International is providing financial support to our affected partners (employees) in Thailand. Finally, the Company will match partner contributions up to $1,000 per calendar year to eligible 501(c) (3) organizations in the United States or Registered Charities in Canada through Starbucks matching program, Choose to Give.
Starbucks anticipates that in the next sixty days, these initial efforts will raise more than US$1 million.
In addition to providing these initial efforts by the Company, Starbucks partners around the world are supporting the relief efforts in a number of ways. The outpouring of support from our partners has been amazing and we are confident that their efforts will make a significant impact on the relief efforts.
For example, stores in Thailand proclaimed December 29 "Day of Giving," during which 100 percent of the day's store profits were designated for relief. The store partners from our remaining Phuket, Thailand store spent several thousand baht (local currency) of their own money in the immediate aftermath of the Tsunami to buy food, water, and cloth to wrap bodies in for victims in the community.
We recognize that our customers are very passionate about supporting the relief efforts and have expressed an interest in donating through or with Starbucks. Today we are exploring the most efficient and effective way for our stores worldwide to facilitate customer donations. In the interim, customers may donate to, CARE and Oxfam International, Starbucks donation recipients, by visiting CARE or Oxfam online.
While we understand the dollars required to rebuild the impacted areas are in the billions, and these efforts will take years, we want to assure you that our commitment to giving back to the impacted countries and region is strong and long-term. We will continue to assess the needs of the impacted countries in the months and years to come and provide the appropriate resources that could include funding for social or environmental programs, store support of local rebuilding efforts and more.
Thank you for taking the time to write to Starbucks.
Sincerely,
Julie
Starbucks Customer Relations"
__________
Godfather of nothing, ancesters of none.
Black glasses and feedback took my sense of fun.
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Edited by - Carolynanna on 01/04/2005 14:41:34 |
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Tsunamis
